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Christianity and "salvation"
    #3905416 -

I have a question that I'd like to direct mainly to people who call themselves "Christian", and have the basic belief that the only way to get into heaven is through accepting Jesus as your savior. Other comments are welcome, but it's that group that I'm wondering about. So, here goes;

If I can't accept Jesus as my "savior", or even the existance of God, due to the lack of any scientific proof of such, and I don't think that anything would cause me to accept them without real concrete proof, is it possible for me to get to heaven? One of the things I'm thinking, lets say that I knew that I was going to die in the immediate future. My mind might, in a fear reaction, begin to wonder about the after-life and decide that maybe I should just 'think' to my self "OK, I believe in God and Jesus, hes my savior". But God would certainly know that I didn't really believe it. So how does a person who is so science-minded accept the unprovable?


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: SoopaX]
    #3905438 -

SoopaX said:
So how does a person who is so science-minded accept the unprovable?


first, let me make this clear; I'M NOT A CHRISTIAN.


They don't they are cast into hell for not believing everything. That has historically been the case (can provide info if ya want). They have either been told they were going to hell, or their lives were made to simulate hell by those of the religion.

Beyond that, God realized you've made this post, and as a result, if you don't turn the 700 club on now, and if you don't begin to pray then, you can pretty much wave heaven good :bye:


However, their is hope, as some don't believe that Jesus even existed:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

Beyond that, this link provides info that not one single piece of evidence was ever recovered which suggested that Jesus existed in the time that he existed. Also several notable peices of info which show how some of those that had the ability to alter the bible.... indeed planned to (if not actually did).

If that were the case, it couldn't be accounted for through any other form, as the church is in possession of the documents (including the Kolbrin, as it is after the changes that were made to the bible, but retains some info predating the new testament).

Edit:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...2&fpart=all

Also evidence of changes of the Bibles intended consumer. (several posts on it)



--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/12/05 02:15 AM)

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: SoopaX]
    #3905469 -

Why would you want to get a confirmation of proof from a person that you should be going to a place that doesn't exist because it is made from a God that you do not believe in....?    Hhhhhmmmm.... 

Most all of scientific "proof" is of "theories".... 
And, a  "theory" is not a "Fact".... 
There are only "Facts" of "Life"....
Within "Life", there is "Heart"....
Within "Heart", there is God....

Simple scientific deduction....  Shall I do it again....?


By the way, in my "re-birth", I refuse to give myself a religious "tag"....  So, I would not call myself a "Christian" as you would say....  As I have no basis to believe that I am anything other than ME, starting a relationship with someone I have always loved....  I believe in GOD as Jesus Christ our Savior, and I am growing a relationship with my new old friend in my/our own way of understanding....  Just as I would any new friend....    :smile:  :heart:   



ME....


:heartpump::heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3905532 -

God is not a fact by that reasoning either... Apparently, from what I tend to get form people is that one cannot hold god up to scientific principals for God's ways are mysterious...

And one should be able to get confirmation of a god to some degree shouldn't they? Most who are actually religious, alter their lives as well as their habits to conform with the tenants set forth by a god. I'd sure as hell want confirmation if I'm going to drastically alter my lifestyle.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3905544 -

/Roleplays a Christian

Why question god? God doesn't question you? Jesus is with you and understands that you would like to have faith and affirmation by way of one of man's greatest mechanisms of proof; that of scientific deduction.

But... You must realize, that the Devil consistantly, and constantly is preying on your every move. The devil himself has many machinations that he uses, as he wants you to join his side, and to shun god. The minute you begin to question Jesus, and God, is the minute the devil begins to prey on your tortured soul.

Do yourself a favor, STOP! You are thinking exactly how the devil wants you to think. You must cast the Devil out from your mind, and not listen to the words of men, for they will lead you astray! Don't question god, and you will live forever!!!

(Sorry, not meant to be offensive, but I figure you'll get similar logic from a devout believer; as I've experienced on many occasions logic using a similar train of thought)


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3905590 -

Believing in god is all about faith. We can't see the air thats all around us but we know its there. Just because you can't see God doesn't mean he doesn't exsist. I am a christian and i know that jesus is my lord and savior. I am a sinner like everyone else but i know god will always forgive me and always be there for me.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: sketchytripper]
    #3905610 -

im not a christian, but im the son of a christian pastor so i have a fairly extensive database of knowledge on the religion. In order to be accepted into heaven, you have to first admit to god that you are a sinner, that you have sinned and that you are not worthy to enter heaven. Secondly you have to aknowledge that god sent his only son to take responsibility for all the sin of the world including yours so that you might be worthy to enter heaven. and basically you have to repent and actually be sorry for all the sins you have done even though they have already been payed for (by jesus). You have to admit and realize that there is nothing you can do, at all, that will get you into heaven. Doing all the good things in the world cannot make you pure since you are inherently a sinner by nature (even babies are sinners; we are born sinful)

And of course in doing all this you have to actually believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is infact a god behind all this. This is the hardest part for most people which is why christians have weekly meetings to give their faith a boost.

My parents used to go to these week long christian retreats where there were nothing but christians and they would praise the lord and all that good stuff. when they would return they would always say they felt renewed in their faith and that their faith was strong. This is why they insist that christian fellowship and prayer are so important, otherwise satan will make you stumble.

of course this is all a load of shit empowered by people who have had their mid-life crisis's and found christianity as the way out :P but of course, thats just my opinion. if you love god, ill take your word for it, don't try to convince me. and if there is infact a heaven and a hell, i don't want to spend eternity with the fucker that put me through all this shit on earth.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: SoopaX]
    #3905621 -

to answer your original question:
"My mind might, in a fear reaction, begin to wonder about the after-life and decide that maybe I should just 'think' to my self "OK, I believe in God and Jesus, hes my savior". "

that wouldn't work.
but if your mind were to drive you to the point where you actually convinced yourself, be it through madness or terror of death, that there is a god and you follow all the steps in my previous post, you would most definately get into heaven.

The idea is that your belief needs to be true, and god, much like santa claus, can see if you've been good or bad! Theres no hiding the truth!

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3905658 -

fearfect said:
of course this is all a load of shit empowered by people who have had their mid-life crisis's and found christianity as the way out :P but of course, thats just my opinion.  if you love god, ill take your word for it, don't try to convince me.  and if there is infact a heaven and a hell, i don't want to spend eternity with the fucker that put me through all this shit on earth.


:thumbup: :lol: chess anyone?

PhanTomCat said:
Why would you want to get a confirmation of proof from a person that you should be going to a place that doesn't exist because it is made from a God that you do not believe in....?    Hhhhhmmmm.... 

Most all of scientific "proof" is of "theories".... 
And, a  "theory" is not a "Fact".... 
There are only "Facts" of "Life"....
Within "Life", there is "Heart"....
Within "Heart", there is God....

Simple scientific deduction....  Shall I do it again....?


Just comming back to this thought, as I was away busy and something else came to mind. In my post I've provided principles of scientific deduction on the basis of science, yet I've no direct mention of it from you.

Now, If you are to justify an existence with scientific evidence, it would seem to me the best possible way would be to use scientific reasoning.

Beyond that, more often then not, this topic involving scientific deduction and the discussion of religion is often a taboo subject, as few are willing to mix the two of them.... because they don't mix all that well to say the least.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3905669 -

if you're alive, and you don't know if God exists, than that is how you should live your life, as one he just does'nt know..

if God parts the fucking sky open and comes down to you and says "I do exist!", than you should live your life knowing he does exists..

and of course, if you found proof that there is no God, than i guess there's no reason to live a certain way, now is there??

you see, there's a diffrence between not knowing if there is a God, and Denying there is a God, an unbeliever is one who denies, there the ones who go to hell for not believing..

i believe it was Swami Rama who once said "you really don't need to know much, but you difantly need to practice what you know."


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: JCoke]
    #3905692 -

JCoke said:
you see, there's a diffrence between not knowing if there is a God, and Denying there is a God, an unbeliever is one who denies, there the ones who go to hell for not believing..


Thank you... and see you their my friend! :lol:

Sorry, but thanks for condemning half the world... damn religionist!! (re: race ist = racist, apply that to religion)

For one, by condemning us, you're asserting your "ultimate truth" to is the only true truth (which is false). Furthermore, your suggesting that your belief is inherently superior for you will get the "good human being" certificate of conformity (~heaven), and everyone else isn't going to get theirs for their belief system. Now, their are many religions out their, and I could make one up that involves your condemning half the world to some concept, would place you in the bowels of hell... but I'll choose not to for now.

Read through history, look up some of the logic and incidents, as well as the countless atrocities performed by many of the religions offering a peice of exagerated idealism pie. Dunno, seems to me, that they're the ones that do their own evil deeds that they talk against... but I'm sure we'll have another way to discount their actions from the collective belief system of a few noteworthy religious figures... which of course, by way of your original synopsis will ultimately put them all in the same boat.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/12/05 12:43 PM)

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3905713 -

wtf are you talking about?

i condemed half the world? how so?

i fail to see how what i said is some how asserting my ultimate truth to be the one and only truth..

soopa asked a christian a question, i gave what know.


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: JCoke]
    #3905722 -

JCoke said:
wtf are you talking about?

i condemed half the world? how so?

i fail to see how what i said is some how asserting my ultimate truth to be the one and only truth..

soopa asked a christian a question, i gave what know.


JCoke said:
you see, there's a diffrence between not knowing if there is a God, and Denying there is a God, an unbeliever is one who denies, there the ones who go to hell for not believing..



Sorry, I see now how that can be misconstrued...  :whatever:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3905775 -

look it, it's just as much of a belief to say "i don't believe there is a God" and saying "i do believe there is a God", neither side has yet to be proven..

if you got no proof there is no God, than you got no grounds to stand and say that, if you do got proof, than you got ground, i'm just saying until you got ground, be honest with yourself and with everyone and with God (if there is a God), because that is the ground your on, i fail to see what your reading in my post...

i tell you God has already proven himself to me, but he has'nt proven himself to you apparently, and i have no proof for you that he did reveal himself to me, so what should i tell you? do i believe in God and am I on the right grounds to say that is does exist?? or should i just keep that to myself (too late i guess)? i would keep that to myself, if i did'nt explain this to you, but for the sake of elaborating my post, i did..

i guess i some how comdemed half the world again??

I guess i am some how asserting my ultimate truth to be the one and only truth again??

:shrug:


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: SoopaX]
    #3905979 -

SoopaX said:
If I can't accept Jesus as my "savior", or even the existance of God, due to the lack of any scientific proof of such, and I don't think that anything would cause me to accept them without real concrete proof, is it possible for me to get to heaven? One of the things I'm thinking, lets say that I knew that I was going to die in the immediate future. My mind might, in a fear reaction, begin to wonder about the after-life and decide that maybe I should just 'think' to my self "OK, I believe in God and Jesus, hes my savior". But God would certainly know that I didn't really believe it. So how does a person who is so science-minded accept the unprovable?


Is not the kingdom of God everywhere, within the self and in every nook and cranny?If you think you will only fing the kingdom of heaven only in one book or in one man, you are mistaken for it exsists in every particle and galaxy.

You make your own heaven and hell both in life or death. If you get caught up in sheol, you are the only one who is keeping yourself there.


--------------------
Agent 727
7

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3906017 -

fearfect said:
In order to be accepted into heaven, you have to first admit to god that you are a sinner, that you have sinned and that you are not worthy to enter heaven.


The problem with this is that it doesn't make sence. God made us all worthy of heaven. I don't like the "club" heaven is prtrayed to be. When it comes to the kingdom of God, there are no have nots. All are part of the kingdom reguardless of actions.

Quote:
Secondly you have to aknowledge that god sent his only son to take responsibility for all the sin of the world including yours so that you might be worthy to enter heaven.


Whatever happenned to those verses in Job where God got all of his sons together? What about John 10:30-35 where Jesus calls even his enemies Gods. This is complete bullshit because all things are derived from God. Jesus's responsability went far beyond showing that sin is based on lies (read Mary's Gospel).

Quote:
and basically you have to repent and actually be sorry for all the sins you have done even though they have already been payed for (by jesus).


Sin is a ritual based on evil and evil is a lie because it is contradictory to God's nature. So does sin actually exsist till we manifest it by ritual? Either way, feeling bad is a way that you can be subdued by a cult. Never feel bad about anything; accept and move on.

Quote:
You have to admit and realize that there is nothing you can do, at all, that will get you into heaven.


Only because you are already part of heaven. If you look up you see the sky and call it heaven. If you looked up from pluto and saw Earth, it would also be a part of heaven from there. This is heaven, this is our reality. We make it heaven or hell.

Quote:
Doing all the good things in the world cannot make you pure since you are inherently a sinner by nature (even babies are sinners; we are born sinful)


That's a crock of shit. i have never heard of a hateful, rascist baby. Jesus says in the Gospel nof Mary wuite clearly that sin is contrary to our nature. He goes on to say it is the reason why we get sick and die.

Quote:
And of course in doing all this you have to actually believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is infact a god behind all this. This is the hardest part for most people which is why christians have weekly meetings to give their faith a boost.


Why would God love you any less for not accepting a narrow minded view of God? Christians who believe this need to realize that God is all around them and in them. God is hardly invisable.

Quote:
My parents used to go to these week long christian retreats where there were nothing but christians and they would praise the lord and all that good stuff. when they would return they would always say they felt renewed in their faith and that their faith was strong. This is why they insist that christian fellowship and prayer are so important, otherwise satan will make you stumble.


I read an article somewhere that the church was run by people who practiced Satanism in secret. I wonder if that is why the followers are kept so dumb. Besides that, I think modern Christianity is a major stumbling block for anyone who wants to understand God.

Quote:
of course this is all a load of shit empowered by people who have had their mid-life crisis's and found christianity as the way out :P but of course, thats just my opinion. if you love god, ill take your word for it, don't try to convince me.


I agree that modern Christianity is bullcrap. The message Jesus was trying to teach has been obscured. Jesus was a very VERY powerful prophet. He taught that anyone could do what he could do and even said some will do even more magnificant things.\

Also, please don't let religion ruin God for you. Alot of the views out there are very narrow minded. If you accept life, you accept God. Eat of the fruit of God and you are God living through you just like when you eat food, you are whatever the food was living through you. God doesnt do anything except for love and you really should look into God on your own. I personally define God as exsistance itself because all that exsists is so vibrant with life, so for me it is easy to see God in everything. People want to make it hard, but the commonly held beliefe that spiritual is not physical is a lie. A phenominon has a physicle explanation whether is has made it to science or not.

Quote:
and if there is infact a heaven and a hell, i don't want to spend eternity with the fucker that put me through all this shit on earth.


The only one putting anyone through any shit is oneself.

Much love to you.


--------------------
Agent 727
7

Edited by MAGnum (03/12/05 07:11 AM)

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3906049 -

Look into the face of fear, look DEEP into it's eyes....  This fear is YOURS, and only you have to deal with it....
Look into the eyes of an animal....
Look into the eyes of an innocent child....
Look into the eyes of a loved one, and/or a wife....  :wink: (:lol:)  >>AHEM<<
Look into the eyes of all eyes....
For what you are looking at, IS LIFE....
and that LIFE is looking right back at YOU....  :eyemouth:
As those eyes hold the very life of GOD and his creation....
Now, look into your very own eyes, stare yourself down deep for a lot of time, what do you see....?
What to you truly see staring back at you....?

NOW, look into the eyes of a cold hearted serial killer,
and you will see evil with CLEAR intents of coldness as nothing but dark and truly EVIL.... 
An absence of God or anything "warm" or "good", a non-believer as it were.... 
Unfortunately, as I understand it, grounds to be condemed.... 
:shrug:  Whatcha~ gonna~ Dew~....?  :shrug:    Live Life....!  Oh, and LOVE....  :heart:

NOW, look into the eyes of someone that is passing away....  When that very life is extinguished....   
Watch the magic that is God no longer to be within that carcass, as that moment passes....


And to be noted that it is not my judgement, it is what I "feel"....
What does that mean to you....?    No matter, what does it mean to me....?   
It means that I know GOD is watching over me thru ALL of those eyes.... 
As I have asked of him to guide me and watch over me in my decisions....

And perhaps that is just my perception of the HOLE as a WHOLE....  :wink:

BlueBerry Dohnuts anyone....?  :print:  :lol:    :sun:      :heart:


ME....


:heartpump::heartpump:


And not that JCoke needs my help in explaining his words, but he has not condemed anyone that decides not to believe on their own....
They have kinda~ condemed themselves....  At least the way I understand....
A cynic can sit in the rain for 40 days and 39 nights, and DAMN, "40" is right around the corner, I will get RIGHT on that....!    :lol:
:::::looking at watch:::::

To deny "something" of perhaps what one knows nothing about, would be nothing short of blind arrogance..... 
It would be like saying "I am going to PROOVE that "red" is indeed "GREEN", just because I said so"....

BLIND....  BiNDiNG....  ARRoGaNCe....    :shake:


If one was to nutrally observe a group of lemmings running straight towards a cliff's edge,
would it be "condeming" to point this out....?  Or perhaps, it would be a "TRUTH"....?

HHhhhhhhmmmmm.....    :shrug:

:heart:

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3906070 -

MAGnum said:
Quote:
Also, please don't let religion ruin God for you. Alot of the views out there are very narrow minded. If you accept life, you accept God.
.
Eat of the fruit of God and you are God living through you just like when you eat food, you are whatever the food was living through you.


So So So Soooooo Much truth right in this quote of words.....  It is to be another ABSOLUTE that I just noticed in these very words.... 

It is of LIFE that feeds LIFE....  You cannot eat a rock, or anything else that has not had LIFE to sustain your VERY LIFE....  :oogle:  :shiftyeyes:
(Perhaps an already know "conservation of "_____" fact - to which I am not taking credit for....)

Anyway, another ABSOLUTE as seemingly discovered in this magic reletive symphony we live thru life.... 

Thanks MUCH Brother M.A.G.....!    :thumbup:


ME....


:heartpump::heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3906090 -

as a scientific person
you can still appreciate the good in people.
by analysis, that is the true best that the most religious people achieve - i.e mutual respect

if anything counts, being consistently good does.
there is lots to deal with while we are here without questioning the nature of some alternate reality - heaven.
IMO you already bought your ticket whether you believe it or not, so this is your opportunity to live with integrity and leave the afterlife to those with no life to share.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3906126 -

Well, I cannot argue with the noble discipline that ANYONE so chooses to live in "the right".... 

It is just sad for me to know what I know, (not as a question), and see that so many people just "bought their ticket" --to death....

Perhaps it is time for an upgrade in tickets....?  Yes, it is a choice....  I am glad that anyone so chooses to be on "the right" in LIFE....
I still pray for you in your DEATH....


ME....


:heartpump::heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3906213 -

PhanTomCat;
you are abusing capitals
my BS detector is beeping noisily

and whatever do you mean by death - it sounds primitive, like a curse


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3906362 -

>>>HONK HONK<<<

:wink:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3906894 -

I don't know if you were attacking me or the religion that I know of. The version of christianity? that I am familiar with is the only one I can actually accept as being at least remotely logical. What I like worse then bible literalists are people who translate the bible however they feel like it; creating their own religion and believing it, spreading it, customized to them. If you are going to believe a religion, you have to at least take the doctrine that defines it and follow that. The christianity that I know is exactly that. The presbyterian branch is very much a literalist branch and they believe that the bible is true in everything it says and use that as a guide, rather then pick and choose what merely fits their whims.

i can't quite follow alot of your arguments as i don't see how they relate directly to mine, but a few stand out. I have not heard of the gospel of mary, but ill assume its something catholic. What I am refering to is protestant christianity. In Romans 3:23, probably one of the most famous verses it states "for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God"

Psalm 51:5 is a very clear statement that we all come into the world as sinners: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." Ephesians 2:2 says that all people who are not in Christ are "sons of disobedience."

Genesis 8:21 declares, "...the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth." Jonathon Edwards, in his classic work The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin Defended, remarks that on this verse: "The word translated youth, signifies the whole of the former part of the age of man, which commences from the beginning of life. The word in its derivation, has reference to the birth or beginning of existence...so that the word here translated youth, comprehends not only what we in English most commonly call the time of youth, but also childhood and infancy."
last two paragraphs taken from http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8449/original.html

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3906945 -

The only certainty in life is death. Even with death we dont know where, when or how? Life is like a candle in the wind, eventually all candles will be extinguished. Not a single lifeform on this planet can escape it, death is like a mirror, death brings our life and our priorities into clear view, its a blessing not a curse. Although it can become a curse if we morbidly obsess.

You can belive what you like but you can never know what is going to happen when death comes, you better pack you bags properly in life becuase you have no choice but to catch that train..... :heart:


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: egghead1]
    #3906983 -

Why should one prepare for something that one can never be ready for (except possibly after a long illness)?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: egghead1]
    #3907015 -

JCoke said:
look it, it's just as much of a belief to say "i don't believe there is a God" and saying "i do believe there is a God", neither side has yet to be proven..


Please don't mix science and religion if you aren't willing to use scientific reasoning as a basis for verifying existance. I've provided ample evidence of scientific reasoning in regards to the nature of the religion... That is science.

To use the same ol' tired statement provided is not found in scientific reasoning, rather religious misdirection.

.... simply put, don't attempt to argue through the use of science if you aren't willing to evaluate the religion in terms of science.

Beyond that, just as redgreenvines was saying, it is great to be consistantly good. I'm sorry, I just don't see why I should be good for a "raise" from god, for doing the good job. I'll be and am good without a god, I need no mandate from heaven to assure me that I'm being good. It's called uncommon sense. (common sense is far from common)

I tend to look down on people who go on and on about heaven and it's rewards. It's like a hidden fear of theirs that if they aren't good and don't follow the mandate of god to the "T" then they'll tossed into hell. Sorry, I just as well might as you legal laws and a legal stance to motivate people to do good out of fear. Somehow that isn't as applicable as it doesn't affect this existance and supposedly the next.

Anyhow, god knows my intentions, and I know his. We are separated from our views and our reasoning, I don't do evil out of fear, rather do good as it is harder to good then it is to be bad. Life is a challenge, it isn't a mandate.

Would you feel any better if a Man of physical word was suggesting the law of god was his own, and telling you how to live for fear of your existance? No way in hell I'm going to kowtow. (even if the previous position puts me in "hell" as it were)

Swami said:
Why should one prepare for something that one can never be ready for (except possibly after a long illness)?


God says so... Do it or go to hell! (feels like Monopoly; you've just landed on the "community chest" of cards by asking that question, each card sends you directly to hell... don't question)


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3907047 -

in my quest for meaning i refuse to abandon logic and reason to ease the anxiety of death

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Swami]
    #3907056 -

We can prepare for it quite easily, If we train in reminding ourselves during our lives that death can come at any moment, we may discover and decide to take care of what is truly essential. Some people who have had near death experiences say that at death you whole life flashes before your eyes, like a life review. It seems to me that by then its a little late :lol: .

We need to pack our bags properly, (living a good life), so that when we die we dint have many regrets and can leave this world with a clean mind, knowing that you've done your best and lived a good and full life, whatever time it comes. We can always change our ways by reflecting on death.

At the time of death, whatever you believe will happen, one thing is certain, if you are not ready for it, its going to be a traumatic experience, if we have many attachments in this life, it is going to be difficult to let go of this world at the exit. So for that we need to train ourselves in non-attachment, this means that we enjoy everything in life while it lasts, but we have to learn also to let go of grasping by reflecting on impermenace. This will help us to let go properly at the time of death, so that we can have a good mind state and die well.

True Unconditional Love is without attachment, We need to die with loving minds...... :heart:


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3907059 -

Quote:
But... You must realize, that the Devil consistantly, and constantly is preying on your every move. The devil himself has many machinations that he uses, as he wants you to join his side, and to shun god. The minute you begin to question Jesus, and God, is the minute the devil begins to prey on your tortured soul.

Do yourself a favor, STOP! You are thinking exactly how the devil wants you to think. You must cast the Devil out from your mind, and not listen to the words of men, for they will lead you astray! Don't question god, and you will live forever!!!




The devil is now working overtime becase he knows his time is coming to an end and he will try to gather as many followers as he can. All he can do is try and " play god" until the time comes and he is casted away into the bottomless pit and the new world will come....cast away the fear of the devil by loving one another which will ultimately destroy him


--------------------
"Life is one BIG road with Lots of signs. So when you riding through the ruts, don't you complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy. Don't bury your thoughts, put your vision to reality "

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3907062 -

fearfect said:
in my quest for meaning i refuse to abandon logic and reason to ease the anxiety of death


You kind of have to fearfect... God is based on Love (as I've read in this post several times). Although, I can swear form the older testaments before god recieved his vengeful god makeover; (think the kindler gentler IRS... Just an image change, they still screw you over.) ah... never mind, I somehow don't believe that this is applicable to this discussion :lol:.

Quick Blaze said:
Quote:
But... You must realize, that the Devil consistantly, and constantly is preying on your every move. The devil himself has many machinations that he uses, as he wants you to join his side, and to shun god. The minute you begin to question Jesus, and God, is the minute the devil begins to prey on your tortured soul.

Do yourself a favor, STOP! You are thinking exactly how the devil wants you to think. You must cast the Devil out from your mind, and not listen to the words of men, for they will lead you astray! Don't question god, and you will live forever!!!




The devil is now working overtime becase he knows his time is coming to an end and he will try to gather as many followers as he can. All he can do is try and " play god" until the time comes and he is casted away into the bottomless pit and the new world will come....cast away the fear of the devil by loving one another which will ultimately destroy him


Ermmm sorry, I added the [/roleplays a Christian] to denote the fact that I was being facetious.

Beyond that, look up to the religiousist part... you're essentially suggesting that your religion has an inherent superiority and all the non-believers are SOL for not believing in your god. A form of a rather totalitarian (re: fascist) god if you ask me. I'd much prefer a democratic god that doesn't cast me into hell by fearing me to believe in the one "true god" as a mandate by those in charge of disseminating and interpreting that belief.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/12/05 12:37 PM)

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3907084 -

it is really facinating; the old testament god vs the new testament god. after the flood god vowed to never destroy everything again like that. he killed everyone save noah's family. all throughout the old testament, god is wiping out entire civilizations for his "chosen people". He decides that the land that his people are to have belong to some other group of people so he juts wipes them all out. He had no emotion for the people outside his chosen. Then all of a sudden, in the new testament, god loves everyone and wants everyone to be happy, not just the isrealites anymore.

im really sick of this discussion now. im out. peace.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3907129 -

:lol:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3907607 -

Psychoactive1984 said:
JCoke said:
look it, it's just as much of a belief to say "i don't believe there is a God" and saying "i do believe there is a God", neither side has yet to be proven..


Please don't mix science and religion if you aren't willing to use scientific reasoning as a basis for verifying existance. I've provided ample evidence of scientific reasoning in regards to the nature of the religion... That is science.

belief in science IS just as stronge as a belief in God to me, you believe science because you see the results of the action, it's the same with God for me, you might want to read the book "evidence that demands a verdict" if you want Jesus to be a real historical figure, you can believe it, or you can deny it, but it's still just a belief no matter what side you see it from.

I tend to look down on people who go on and on about heaven and it's rewards. It's like a hidden fear of theirs that if they aren't good and don't follow the mandate of god to the "T" then they'll tossed into hell. Sorry, I just as well might as you legal laws and a legal stance to motivate people to do good out of fear. Somehow that isn't as applicable as it doesn't affect this existance and supposedly the next.

the only two laws i have recieved from the reading the bible are 1, love God, and 2, love everyone as you would like to be loved, i don't know the christians you met, but i for one live in comfort and peace, no fear of hell or damnation or any of that stuff, i fear God in the same way i would fear my wife, I fear if I cheat on her, lie to her, treat her less than i would like to be treated etc etc,, it would hurt our relationship, if that's fear, than yes i do fear God... all the laws in the bible are there for our benefit, not for us to benefit the law, i have met and argued with christians who still seem to have this mind set, instulled by lazy parents and pastors, that we have to obey everything the bible says word for word, Jesus taught the we need the heart of the law, not the word of the law at face value..

Would you feel any better if a Man of physical word was suggesting the law of god was his own, and telling you how to live for fear of your existance? No way in hell I'm going to kowtow. (even if the previous position puts me in "hell" as it were)

if that man came to judge it, i would hate it, if that man came to save me from the world, with wisdom and miracles, who could possibly have a problem with that??


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3907635 -

fearfect said:
it is really facinating; the old testament god vs the new testament god. after the flood god vowed to never destroy everything again like that. he killed everyone save noah's family. all throughout the old testament, god is wiping out entire civilizations for his "chosen people". He decides that the land that his people are to have belong to some other group of people so he juts wipes them all out. He had no emotion for the people outside his chosen. Then all of a sudden, in the new testament, god loves everyone and wants everyone to be happy, not just the isrealites anymore.

im really sick of this discussion now. im out. peace.


we all die, does it really matter if we die in groups??

i never understood why people get confused and wonder why God can kill thousands in the OT, and claim in the new testemant God never kills anyone like that, WE ALL DIE, natural disasters are everywhere, it's like people in florida, year after year another hurricane, they move right back there, and than when the next one comes, they go "oh God have mercy on us! what did we do to deserve this!", please, thats just life..


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" *DELETED* [Re: MAGnum]
    #3907698 -

Post deleted by JCoke

Reason for deletion: fart out the mouth



--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: JCoke]
    #3907878 -

JCoke said:
look it, it's just as much of a belief to say "i don't believe there is a God" and saying "i do believe there is a God", neither side has yet to be proven..

belief in science IS just as stronge as a belief in God to me, you believe science because you see the results of the action, it's the same with God for me, you might want to read the book "evidence that demands a verdict" if you want Jesus to be a real historical figure, you can believe it, or you can deny it, but it's still just a belief no matter what side you see it from.


the only two laws i have recieved from the reading the bible are 1, love God, and 2, love everyone as you would like to be loved, i don't know the christians you met, but i for one live in comfort and peace, no fear of hell or damnation or any of that stuff, i fear God in the same way i would fear my wife, I fear if I cheat on her, lie to her, treat her less than i would like to be treated etc etc,, it would hurt our relationship, if that's fear, than yes i do fear God... all the laws in the bible are there for our benefit, not for us to benefit the law, i have met and argued with christians who still seem to have this mind set, instulled by lazy parents and pastors, that we have to obey everything the bible says word for word, Jesus taught the we need the heart of the law, not the word of the law at face value..

if that man came to judge it, i would hate it, if that man came to save me from the world, with wisdom and miracles, who could possibly have a problem with that??


Please, do yourself a favor and review the links I posted. It has nothing to do with one's belief in god, nor their disbelief. It's a testament of science versus hearsay.

Furthermore, just as I posted in the previous thread dealing with this, I present you another example of Jesus:

Their was a man alive in 1867, he died in 1905, their was much written after his life, and all of his miracles... Yet for some very ODD reason, no mention of his miracles (and they were great miracles that would have been mentioned) have been recorded during the period he lived. However, much was written after his life that "proves" he existed......

See what I'm getting at? I can make up something as well, if your going to attempt to rationalize with me about belief and the basis of it, then please attempt to base it on factual evidence, as I've provided plenty.

Hearsay, conjecture.... is just that, and is only that. Misdirection and pointing out common sayings are not sufficient grounds for a debate, the facts speak for themselves... Sorry I can't believe in the man that existed in 1867-1905 because their is no proof other then conjecture created by those perpetuating the belief. If you want however, I can provide new evidence as I "find" it about his miracles and teachings.

Please, Clarify which "god" you are talking about as well. Are we speaking of the vengeful, wrathful "original" god who was isolated to a "choosen people"? Or are we speaking of the god that got his makeover as his previous meme wasn't fit to take over the world?

I ask because; both gods, simply cannot coexist together, although... for some "reason" they are one in the same... Unless for some reason it was "translated" improperly, and now we have the original meaning... which I highly doubt.

Man has come to Judge it... I'm a man and I am judging it. Look to history, see what "God" has allowed in his name, and what has been justified through god's vessels (those in control of religious documents, as well as interpretation). I give you the miracle of thinking for yourself, and the wisdom to know what you believe and how it was formed.

I Appreciate your response.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/12/05 03:17 PM)

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3907926 -

Please, do yourself a favor and review the links I posted. It has nothing to do with one's belief in god, nor their disbelief. It's a testament of science versus hearsay.

Furthermore, just as I posted in the previous thread dealing with this, I present you another example of Jesus:

Their was a man alive in 1867, he died in 1905, their was much written after his life, and all of his miracles... Yet for some very ODD reason, no mention of his miracles (and they were great miracles that would have been mentioned) have been recorded during the period he lived. However, much was written after his life that "proves" he existed......

See what I'm getting at? I can make up something as well, if your going to attempt to rationalize with me about belief and the basis of it, then please attempt to base it on factual evidence, as I've provided plenty.

Hearsay, conjecture.... is just that, and is only that. Misdirection and pointing out common sayings are not sufficient grounds for a debate, the facts speak for themselves... Sorry I can't believe in the man that existed in 1867-1905 because their is no proof other then conjecture created by those perpetuating the belief. If you want however, I can provide new evidence as I "find" it about his miracles and teachings.

i've read the though your link, nothing interesting really, does'nt matter to me really, God proved himself to me in my life, my argument was never that Jesus was real ot not, that wa your argument, i tell you i myself beleive in God because what happend in my life, not because the Bible..for example, it i was born, and left from birth on a deserted island, no bible, never learned to talk, but God showed himself to me, i would be the same person i am now...also, by your standards, posting a link that says Jesus is'nt real is just as much hearsay from you as the gospels writtin about Jesus, i fail to see the diffrence..

Please, Clarify which "god" you are talking about as well. Are we speaking of the vengeful, wrathful "original" god who was isolated to a "choosen people"? Or are we speaking of the god that got his makeover as his previous meme wasn't fit to take over the world?

I ask because; both gods, simply cannot coexist together, although... for some "reason" they are one in the same... Unless for some reason it was "translated" improperly, and now we have the original meaning... which I highly doubt.

I Appreciate your response.

original God? i only know one God, please tell me about this other God?? and i can answer


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3907934 -

fearfect said:
I don't know if you were attacking me or the religion that I know of. The version of christianity? that I am familiar with is the only one I can actually accept as being at least remotely logical.


I'm agreeing with you, the religion you descibed is simply no longer God's religion. The stuff you wrote about made me think of very important points.

Quote:
What I like worse then bible literalists are people who translate the bible however they feel like it; creating their own religion and believing it, spreading it, customized to them. If you are going to believe a religion, you have to at least take the doctrine that defines it and follow that.


Did Jesus not do exactly as you say in the first sentance? In which religion and where is it actually said that you cant do what you talked about in the second sentance? Religion is meant to free people and it should evolve to get better. However, it is sad that religion can be harnessed to control and has evolved to become bad.

Honestly, why do you have to join a religion? Can I not simply enjoy the bits of truth in every religion?

Quote:
The christianity that I know is exactly that. The presbyterian branch is very much a literalist branch and they believe that the bible is true in everything it says and use that as a guide, rather then pick and choose what merely fits their whims.


Well, my friend, the reason it is bad to be that way is because there were many false prophets or simply prophets that thought they knew, but didn't. The whole Bible throughout history has been spliced and changed to meet people's whims, so the presbyterians are simply still following a collection of individual's whims.


Quote:
I have not heard of the gospel of mary, but ill assume its something catholic.


It is actually the Gospel of Mary Magdala (Magdoline wasn't the name, Magdala was). It is clear from much evidance that Jesus had a very special relationship with this woman and possibly was married and had children by her. You should look her up.

Quote:
What I am refering to is protestant christianity.


I only know a little about catholisism.

Quote:
In Romans 3:23, probably one of the most famous verses it states "for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God"


Romans was written by Paul and although Paul had his strong points, he had his weak ones as well. He wasn't right about everything. The way I look at it, we are the glory of God.

Quote:
Psalm 51:5 is a very clear statement that we all come into the world as sinners: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me."


I don't agree with that simply because I have never met a baby who acts on evil. Sure, you can be raised in a world that sins to commit a sin. But out of all honesty, you aren't born a sinner (one who acts on the basis of evil); you are simply capable of it.

Quote:
Ephesians 2:2 says that all people who are not in Christ are "sons of disobedience."


It actaully doesn't say that, but you could have a typo there. My question to that is: "Disobediance against who?" Like I said, Paul had good points and bad ones. In the bephesians chapter 2, it also says we are born sinners. Again, I have to disagree with the scripture.

Paul enjoyed writing and spreading what he had learned. There are things we can learn from Paul because he did teach some truth, but all writings must be read with a critical eye.

Quote:
Genesis 8:21 declares, "...the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth."


There was some Confuscian writing that I liked alot that said that the nature of man is primarily good. The truth is in all the religions, my friend, some of it is outside religions; the truth is that you have to hammer and chisle away at the chunk of information to get the truth out.

I'm not attacking anything really, simply saying what has to be said. Honestly, we could spit verses and logic at each other or we could learn. You should look into the Apocryphilia.

http://www.comparative-religion.com/christianity/apocrypha/


--------------------
Agent 727
7

Edited by MAGnum (03/12/05 03:27 PM)

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3907939 -

You like that huh?  I am glad that it rings true in your ears :smile:

Much love to ya!  :heart:


--------------------
Agent 727
7

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: JCoke]
    #3907950 -

"i never understood why people get confused and wonder why God can kill thousands in the OT, and claim in the new testemant God never kills anyone like that, WE ALL DIE, natural disasters are everywhere, it's like people in florida, year after year another hurricane, they move right back there, and than when the next one comes, they go "oh God have mercy on us! what did we do to deserve this!", please, thats just life.. "

have you ever read the bible? In the old testament god kills THOUSANDS of people at a time just because he wants their land. After he freed the israelites from egypt he promised them canaan, and so they went and commited genocide in the name of god. they had their justifications. But does anything justify killing off an entire race of people because you want their land?

Tell me you think this is ok.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3907961 -

MAGnum said:
Romans was written by Paul and although Paul had his strong points, he had his weak ones as well. He wasn't right about everything. The way I look at it, we are the glory of God.



You can pick and choose your nose to your desire... for it is yours.

You can pick and choose your beliefs to your desire... for they are yours...

However, when you do pick and choose to what degree you choose your beliefs in one book.... it's truly hard to tell who exactly is right... unless you all are right... in which case you are all wrong (due to contradiction and a multitude of belief systems based on one book and the interpretation thereof.)

If Paul wasn't right about everything... what makes you think all the others were right about everything? Paul most certainly was right in giving the religion to the world, and breaking the ethnic boundary originally instilled. Without Paul... Christianity most certainly would've died off by now... well at least it wouldn't be so prominant... it would've been among one of the KKK of religions so to speak, in which it is isolated to a group of people, instead of all.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: JCoke]
    #3907998 -

JCoke said:
MAGnum, that some good advice right there..

"If you accept life, you accept God."<--- diffantly, one thing i hate is when people say you need to confess jesus is lord to get into heaven, as in, with words, but going on that standard not many westerers would get in to heaven considering that "Jesus" was not Jesus's name.


:lol: Yeah, His name was Yeshua ben Joseph.

Quote:
the only two laws i have recieved from the reading the bible are 1, love God, and 2, love everyone as you would like to be loved,


May I add Love all things as number 3?


--------------------
Agent 727
7

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3908000 -

fearfect said:
"i never understood why people get confused and wonder why God can kill thousands in the OT, and claim in the new testemant God never kills anyone like that, WE ALL DIE, natural disasters are everywhere, it's like people in florida, year after year another hurricane, they move right back there, and than when the next one comes, they go "oh God have mercy on us! what did we do to deserve this!", please, thats just life.. "

have you ever read the bible? In the old testament god kills THOUSANDS of people at a time just because he wants their land. After he freed the israelites from egypt he promised them canaan, and so they went and commited genocide in the name of god. they had their justifications. But does anything justify killing off an entire race of people because you want their land?

Tell me you think this is ok.


so they were killed and went to heaven, big fucking deal, the idea of life being so precious and sacred is a modern way of thinking, nobody chooses to be alive, we just are, and apparently death, war, genocide, pain and suffering is what we are promised in this life, and suprise suprise, that is what we get...


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3908008 -



May I add Love all things as number 3?

:thumbup:

absolutely.


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: JCoke]
    #3908012 -

JCoke said:
fearfect said:
"i never understood why people get confused and wonder why God can kill thousands in the OT, and claim in the new testemant God never kills anyone like that, WE ALL DIE, natural disasters are everywhere, it's like people in florida, year after year another hurricane, they move right back there, and than when the next one comes, they go "oh God have mercy on us! what did we do to deserve this!", please, thats just life.. "

have you ever read the bible?  In the old testament god kills THOUSANDS of people at a time just because he wants their land.  After he freed the israelites from egypt he promised them canaan, and so they went and commited genocide in the name of god.  they had their justifications.  But does anything justify killing off an entire race of people because you want their land?

Tell me you think this is ok.


so they were killed and went to heaven, big fucking deal, the idea of life being so precious and sacred is a modern way of thinking, nobody chooses to be alive, we just are, and apparently death, war, genocide, pain and suffering is what we are promised in this life, and suprise suprise, that is what we get...


God chooses that we are to be alive.... and he allows the Devil to give us the gifts of: war, death, genocide, pain, and suffering.

Remember... God is filled with love!  :heart:  :sun: :heart:

Sorry, I may have already been infected with the rational of the devil.... Please, I beg all of you to "show me the light" and to cast away my evil logic.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3908018 -

How can you go around picking out the points of different religions that you like and casting away the parts you don't like? They come in packages and you either have to accept all of it or none of it. You can't say "Well I think this part is true, but screw the rest of it". What are you basing your decisions on? The only ones who can make claims like this and set the standards are the people who actually (claim) to experience divine intervention. otherwise you have no grounds to decide what is true.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3908021 -

You can do that if your a sinner fearfect. :lol:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3908027 -

Psychoactive1984 said:
If Paul wasn't right about everything... what makes you think all the others were right about everything? Paul most certainly was right in giving the religion to the world, and breaking the ethnic boundary originally instilled. Without Paul... Christianity most certainly would've died off by now... well at least it wouldn't be so prominant... it would've been among one of the KKK of religions so to speak, in which it is isolated to a group of people, instead of all.


Like I said, Paul had bad as well as good points. While he didn't have a rascist idea of who can have Jesus's teachings, but he also believed that women were less than men. Why should one accept both of those ideas as a whole when only one is good?

It is important for me to ask: "Who made this rule that if I think a phrase in a book is true that I have to accept the whole book?"

Honestly, Christian writing has it's truth as well as the Buddhists, Hindus and even scientists. Much of the time the truth is obscured by a clusterfuck of information. It is very important to properly examine the information and chip away at the lies with questions and Logic. My philosophy is built on love and I look through love to find the truth.


--------------------
Agent 727
7

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3908030 -

Psychoactive1984 said:
JCoke said:
fearfect said:
"i never understood why people get confused and wonder why God can kill thousands in the OT, and claim in the new testemant God never kills anyone like that, WE ALL DIE, natural disasters are everywhere, it's like people in florida, year after year another hurricane, they move right back there, and than when the next one comes, they go "oh God have mercy on us! what did we do to deserve this!", please, thats just life.. "

have you ever read the bible?  In the old testament god kills THOUSANDS of people at a time just because he wants their land.  After he freed the israelites from egypt he promised them canaan, and so they went and commited genocide in the name of god.  they had their justifications.  But does anything justify killing off an entire race of people because you want their land?

Tell me you think this is ok.


so they were killed and went to heaven, big fucking deal, the idea of life being so precious and sacred is a modern way of thinking, nobody chooses to be alive, we just are, and apparently death, war, genocide, pain and suffering is what we are promised in this life, and suprise suprise, that is what we get...


God chooses that we are to be alive.... and he allows the Devil to give us the gifts of: war, death, genocide, pain, and suffering.

Remember... God is filled with love!  :heart:  :sun: :heart:


:grin:

well, when i said "nobody chooses to be alive", i was thinking more along the lines no human choose's a life for himself, what it's like and where you are in it, that is God's choice, yea..

as for as the devil, God created the devil with full knoledge that he would fuck up mankind, i don't see the diffrence between saying God cause's pain and saying God sent satan to cause pain...

:confused:


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3908031 -

How do you go about finding which parts are true?

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3908035 -

DaVinci Code afaik.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3908045 -

fearfect said:
have you ever read the bible? In the old testament god kills THOUSANDS of people at a time just because he wants their land.

Tell me you think this is ok.


Absolutely not OK. Joshua broke the ten commandments Moses gave the Hebrew people by going to war. Moses's Commandment not to kill was killed. Honestly, think critically about who wrote the Bible. Don't you think Joshua could have been hearing a demon instead of God? What if he never heard God at all? Could Joshua have used God to insight people to war? What if tehre were differant God's that joshua referred to as God? God doesn't kill. People kill you and a Spirit can also kill, although it is not very common.

The one true God is Love. The Bible is a lump of info and the truth must be refined from it.


--------------------
Agent 727
7

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: JCoke]
    #3908050 -

JCoke said:
so they were killed and went to heaven, big fucking deal, the idea of life being so precious and sacred is a modern way of thinking, nobody chooses to be alive, we just are, and apparently death, war, genocide, pain and suffering is what we are promised in this life, and suprise suprise, that is what we get...


no they did not go to heaven. Before jesus came, only the israelites could go to heaven. God sent all these people to burn forever in hell because they were not born as israelites

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: JCoke]
    #3908052 -

JCoke said:
original God? i only know one God, please tell me about this other God?? and i can answer


You have no basis for debate if you are unaware of your own god's transformation throughout history. (Unless of course you have a preference for the one that provides the most ideal situation :shrug:)

Different strokes... for different folks.

Review the old testament, the new testament, and the Kolbrin... 3 sides of the same story, manipulated by man (note: not sure if god was working through man this time around).


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3908054 -

MAGnum said:
fearfect said:
have you ever read the bible?  In the old testament god kills THOUSANDS of people at a time just because he wants their land.

Tell me you think this is ok.


Absolutely not OK.  Joshua broke the ten commandments Moses gave the Hebrew people by going to war.  Moses's Commandment not to kill was killed.  Honestly, think critically about who wrote the Bible.  Don't you think Joshua could have been hearing a demon instead of God?  What if he never heard God at all?  Could Joshua have used God to insight people to war?  What if tehre were differant God's that joshua referred to as God?  God doesn't kill.  People kill you and a Spirit can also kill, although it is not very common.

The one true God is Love.  The Bible is a lump of info and the truth must be refined from it.


The Lump of Coal that Santa gives you if you've been naughty is the same thing. Just have to find a use for it.  :whatever:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3908057 -

my question remains though. If you discredit parts of the bible because someone may have been hearing a demon instead of god, how can you know when someone is speaking the word of god rather than some demons word? If the bible isn't completely true, how do you know that god is love? How do you know God doesn't kill, did he tell you this, or is this simply what you want to believe?

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3908061 -

Psychoactive1984 said:
JCoke said:
original God? i only know one God, please tell me about this other God?? and i can answer


You have no basis for debate if you are unaware of your own god's transformation throughout history. (Unless of course you have a preference for the one that provides the most ideal situation :shrug:)

Different strokes... for different folks.

Review the old testament, the new testament, and the Kolbrin... 3 sides of the same story, manipulated by man (note: not sure if god was working through man this time around).


i've read the old and the new, i see the world change, and i see people change through out, but i don't see God change..i don't believe you when you say there are two diffrent God's from the old and the new..


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3908063 -

fearfect said:
JCoke said:
so they were killed and went to heaven, big fucking deal, the idea of life being so precious and sacred is a modern way of thinking, nobody chooses to be alive, we just are, and apparently death, war, genocide, pain and suffering is what we are promised in this life, and suprise suprise, that is what we get...


no they did not go to heaven. Before jesus came, only the israelites could go to heaven. God sent all these people to burn forever in hell because they were not born as israelites


they went to hell??

show me a verse..


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: JCoke]
    #3908067 -

JCoke said:
Psychoactive1984 said:
JCoke said:
original God? i only know one God, please tell me about this other God?? and i can answer


You have no basis for debate if you are unaware of your own god's transformation throughout history. (Unless of course you have a preference for the one that provides the most ideal situation :shrug:)

Different strokes... for different folks.

Review the old testament, the new testament, and the Kolbrin... 3 sides of the same story, manipulated by man (note: not sure if god was working through man this time around).


i've read the old and the new, i see the world change, and i see people change through out, but i don't see God change..i don't believe you when you say there are two diffrent God's from the old and the new..


One is angry...
One is nice... (a touch of vengence)

Of course, we can get into the Mormon belief system if you want... unless that isn't the "truth"

If you are knowledgable about your scripture... you wouldn't be arguing with me  :smirk:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: JCoke]
    #3908070 -

JCoke said:
fearfect said:
JCoke said:
so they were killed and went to heaven, big fucking deal, the idea of life being so precious and sacred is a modern way of thinking, nobody chooses to be alive, we just are, and apparently death, war, genocide, pain and suffering is what we are promised in this life, and suprise suprise, that is what we get...


no they did not go to heaven.  Before jesus came, only the israelites could go to heaven.  God sent all these people to burn forever in hell because they were not born as israelites


they went to hell??

show me a verse..


Do you need a verse to explain everything? Well... god didn't predict many of the things occuring today beyond abstract generalizations (I can do that as well if you'd like...).

Of course... what God didn't tell you, the DaVinci Code surely will. :lol:

It even talks about Osama! OMG excuse me, I need to repent.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: JCoke]
    #3908074 -

//edit this wasnt meant for your "show me a verse" this was for a previous post about god's transformation

straight from the book of joshua

Jos 6:1 Now Jericho was straitly shut up because of the children of Israel: none went out, and none came in.
Jos 6:2 And the LORD said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour.
Jos 6:3 And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days.
........
Jos 6:16 And it came to pass at the seventh time, when the priests blew with the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, Shout; for the LORD hath given you the city.
Jos 6:17 And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.
....
Jos 6:19 But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the LORD: they shall come into the treasury of the LORD.
......
Jos 6:24 And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.

in the NT, god preaches pacifism. to love your neighbor


terrible

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3908076 -

fearfect said:
How can you go around picking out the points of different religions that you like and casting away the parts you don't like?


Quote:
They come in packages and you either have to accept all of it or none of it. You can't say "Well I think this part is true, but screw the rest of it".


Who says so? Let's say a guy says he likes to recycle and keep clean the environment, yet also enjoys massacurring whole families on his weekend and decides to write an article about what he likes. If the environmental part is good and the murderring part is bad, do you not disguard the murder and take home with you the environmentalism? Can one not agree with the environmentalism and disagree with the murder? What is wrong with doing that?

I can see alot wrong with accepting the whole; accepting murder when you simply want the environmentalism.

Quote:
What are you basing your decisions on?


Love

Quote:
The only ones who can make claims like this and set the standards are the people who actually (claim) to experience divine intervention. otherwise you have no grounds to decide what is true.


If I told you who I was, you might not believe me. The only Person who sets standards for you is yourself. One can only aid annother to evaluate or realize, but it is the latter who must realize.

I must ask, who sets these bounderies that only people labelled prophets can prophecy, that you have to accept the whole book if you like one phrase? I must also question if they really make sence.


--------------------
Agent 727
7

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3908084 -

God is just as angry towards sin in the NT as he is in old..

God is just as loving in OT to those who love as he is through Jesus and his teachings..

you act like Jesus never talked about hell for those who sin, and you act like God never talked about love and peace for those who do Good, i fail to see your argument about God being angry in the old and loving in the new...


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3908090 -

"How do you go about finding which parts are true?

Through Philosophy based on Love, my friend


--------------------
Agent 727
7

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: JCoke]
    #3908096 -

JCoke said:
God is just as angry towards sin in the NT as he is in old..

God is just as loving in OT to those who love as he is through Jesus and his teachings..

you act like Jesus never talked about hell for those who sin, and you act like God never talked about love and peace for those who do Good, i fail to see your argument about God being angry in the old and loving in the new...


1) Go read them over with
2) Read the Kolbrin as well (another version of the bible between the old and the new)
3) Read several different denominations of christians books
4) Come back and tell me the "truth"

Edit:
Also don't forget the inclusive area of god's change from one ethnicity to hoping on the bandwagon so that god's body (the church) can accept money from everyone, and to further help you combat your sin.

Exactly why does a God want my money, or why as in fearfect's references of verses does god want the gold? ... Hrmmm, all powerful being wanting gold to be claimed in his name... Oh, yeah, nevermind, what was I thinking, no outside form of manipulation whatsoever. /gives god some more money


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/12/05 04:24 PM)

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3908098 -

MAGnum said:
"How do you go about finding which parts are true?

Through Philosophy based on Love, my friend


Is that a new way not to directly answer a question?


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3908102 -

Psychoactive1984 said:
MAGnum said:
fearfect said:
have you ever read the bible?  In the old testament god kills THOUSANDS of people at a time just because he wants their land.

Tell me you think this is ok.


Absolutely not OK.  Joshua broke the ten commandments Moses gave the Hebrew people by going to war.  Moses's Commandment not to kill was killed.  Honestly, think critically about who wrote the Bible.  Don't you think Joshua could have been hearing a demon instead of God?  What if he never heard God at all?  Could Joshua have used God to insight people to war?  What if tehre were differant God's that joshua referred to as God?  God doesn't kill.  People kill you and a Spirit can also kill, although it is not very common.

The one true God is Love.  The Bible is a lump of info and the truth must be refined from it.


The Lump of Coal that Santa gives you if you've been naughty is the same thing. Just have to find a use for it.  :whatever:


A heap of coal would be an excellant gift to someone who is cold.  Again I say, do not let religion and the world man has created ruin God for you.


--------------------
Agent 727
7

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3908108 -

how do you base what you believe on an emotion? If it makes you feel good does that make it true?

I may differ from you greatly in my understanding of how things work, but from what i have found is that believing something to be true, does not make it true. if you have had no divine intervention, then everything that you believe in involving god stems from either someone else's divine intervention, or something that you have just made up because it suits your needs.

Who is to say that god is really all about love? Why could god not be all about hate? Why could he not in actuality enjoy slaughtering people?

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3908112 -

Serial killers "LOVE" to kill!!

God is Love.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3908115 -

fearfect said:
//edit this wasnt meant for your "show me a verse" this was for a previous post about god's transformation

straight from the book of joshua

Jos 6:1 Now Jericho was straitly shut up because of the children of Israel: none went out, and none came in.
Jos 6:2 And the LORD said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour.
Jos 6:3 And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days.
........
Jos 6:16 And it came to pass at the seventh time, when the priests blew with the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, Shout; for the LORD hath given you the city.
Jos 6:17 And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.
....
Jos 6:19 But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the LORD: they shall come into the treasury of the LORD.
......
Jos 6:24 And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.

in the NT, god preaches pacifism. to love your neighbor


terrible


again, the world changes, people change, the times change..

it's a modern way of thinking to see war and death as entirely bad, but really it's just a part of life, Jesus taught on a more personnal level, how you should treat each other, we all die, does it matter if God gives us a quick death by sword ot a long slow cancerouis death??


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3908118 -

MAGnum said:
Psychoactive1984 said:
MAGnum said:
fearfect said:
have you ever read the bible?  In the old testament god kills THOUSANDS of people at a time just because he wants their land.

Tell me you think this is ok.


Absolutely not OK.  Joshua broke the ten commandments Moses gave the Hebrew people by going to war.  Moses's Commandment not to kill was killed.  Honestly, think critically about who wrote the Bible.  Don't you think Joshua could have been hearing a demon instead of God?  What if he never heard God at all?  Could Joshua have used God to insight people to war?  What if tehre were differant God's that joshua referred to as God?  God doesn't kill.  People kill you and a Spirit can also kill, although it is not very common.

The one true God is Love.  The Bible is a lump of info and the truth must be refined from it.


The Lump of Coal that Santa gives you if you've been naughty is the same thing. Just have to find a use for it.  :whatever:


A heap of coal would be an excellant gift to someone who is cold.  Again I say, do not let religion and the world man has created ruin God for you.


You missed the point.

If I want to play around with a crossword puzzle... I will, If I want a riddle... I'll seek one. If I want a belief system about how I'm to live my life... I don't expect to have to decipher it, nor to have others decipher it for me.

Imagine as far as you say our whole legal system was implemented in that manner... "Mysterious ways" indeed.

Sorry... I don't need an external force to pep me up. I liken myself to the way a football team works.. in conjunction... and god is a chearleader. I've got enough "spirit" in me, and a belief in god won't help  :laugh:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3908135 -

Psychoactive1984 said:
JCoke said:
God is just as angry towards sin in the NT as he is in old..

God is just as loving in OT to those who love as he is through Jesus and his teachings..

you act like Jesus never talked about hell for those who sin, and you act like God never talked about love and peace for those who do Good, i fail to see your argument about God being angry in the old and loving in the new...


1) Go read them over with
2) Read the Kolbrin as well (another version of the bible between the old and the new)
3) Read several different denominations of christians books
4) Come back and tell me the "truth"

Edit:
Also don't forget the inclusive area of god's change from one ethnicity to hoping on the bandwagon so that god's body (the church) can accept money from everyone, and to further help you combat your sin.

Exactly why does a God want my money, or why as in fearfect's references of verses does god want the gold? ... Hrmmm, all powerful being wanting gold to be claimed in his name... Oh, yeah, nevermind, what was I thinking, no outside form of manipulation whatsoever. /gives god some more money



i want you to tell me where the diffrent God is and where he comes in, i've read the bible enough aswhell as the apocrypha, i still don't see it, and you still have'nt proven it..

Jesus and his disciples were homeless and poor, he taught alot about hating money, i think you have a problem with church and not God..


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: JCoke]
    #3908138 -

JCoke said:
fearfect said:
//edit this wasnt meant for your "show me a verse" this was for a previous post about god's transformation

straight from the book of joshua

Jos 6:1 Now Jericho was straitly shut up because of the children of Israel: none went out, and none came in.
Jos 6:2 And the LORD said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour.
Jos 6:3 And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days.
........
Jos 6:16 And it came to pass at the seventh time, when the priests blew with the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, Shout; for the LORD hath given you the city.
Jos 6:17 And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.
....
Jos 6:19 But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the LORD: they shall come into the treasury of the LORD.
......
Jos 6:24 And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.

in the NT, god preaches pacifism. to love your neighbor


terrible


again, the world changes, people change, the times change..

it's a modern way of thinking to see war and death as entirely bad, but really it's just a part of life, Jesus taught on a more personnal level, how you should treat each other, we all die, does it matter if God gives us a quick death by sword ot a long slow cancerouis death??


Yes it does... especially if I choose not to believe in him. More so, you are constantly contradicting yourself by deviating from your bible.

Which version are you choosing btw?


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3908141 -

fearfect said:
my question remains though. If you discredit parts of the bible because someone may have been hearing a demon instead of god, how can you know when someone is speaking the word of god rather than some demons word?


I only say it because I know how demons operate.

Quote:
If the bible isn't completely true, how do you know that god is love?



God has to be love because to Love is to will into exsistance and that is what God does.

Quote:
How do you know God doesn't kill, did he tell you this, or is this simply what you want to believe?


It is simply true. God is not invisable, you know. God is right there with us the whole time as exsistance itself. Plus, the words of one of the greatest prophets ever, Jesus, says "no one is good except for my father"


--------------------
Agent 727
7

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: JCoke]
    #3908142 -

"again, the world changes, people change, the times change..

it's a modern way of thinking to see war and death as entirely bad, but really it's just a part of life, Jesus taught on a more personnal level, how you should treat each other, we all die, does it matter if God gives us a quick death by sword ot a long slow cancerouis death?? "


Why then should we treat others as jesus taught in life when we are all going to die? If death is merely a fact of life, are you suggesting that I could go and end someone's life and it would be by god's hand and i should face no repercussions?

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3908151 -

"God has to be love because to Love is to will into exsistance and that is what God does."

please tell me what this means.

"It is simply true."

WHY?! says who???? Jesus?? By your own logic, how do you know that Jesus was not a demon???

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3908155 -

Psychoactive1984 said:
JCoke said:
fearfect said:
//edit this wasnt meant for your "show me a verse" this was for a previous post about god's transformation

straight from the book of joshua

Jos 6:1 Now Jericho was straitly shut up because of the children of Israel: none went out, and none came in.
Jos 6:2 And the LORD said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour.
Jos 6:3 And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days.
........
Jos 6:16 And it came to pass at the seventh time, when the priests blew with the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, Shout; for the LORD hath given you the city.
Jos 6:17 And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.
....
Jos 6:19 But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the LORD: they shall come into the treasury of the LORD.
......
Jos 6:24 And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.

in the NT, god preaches pacifism. to love your neighbor


terrible


again, the world changes, people change, the times change..

it's a modern way of thinking to see war and death as entirely bad, but really it's just a part of life, Jesus taught on a more personnal level, how you should treat each other, we all die, does it matter if God gives us a quick death by sword ot a long slow cancerouis death??


Yes it does... especially if I choose not to believe in him. More so, you are constantly contradicting yourself by deviating from your bible.

Which version are you choosing btw?


i countradicted myself? how so?

honestly, the bible i use is all the ones here
biblegateway

i use all of them, don't got one of my own..


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3908156 -

Psychoactive1984 said:
MAGnum said:
"How do you go about finding which parts are true?

Through Philosophy based on Love, my friend


Is that a new way not to directly answer a question?


It answers it directly, I am not going to type up my whole philosophy, however. I have alot of it on my website which is the first URL lke under my sig.


--------------------
Agent 727
7

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: JCoke]
    #3908171 -

JCoke said:
Psychoactive1984 said:
JCoke said:
God is just as angry towards sin in the NT as he is in old..

God is just as loving in OT to those who love as he is through Jesus and his teachings..

you act like Jesus never talked about hell for those who sin, and you act like God never talked about love and peace for those who do Good, i fail to see your argument about God being angry in the old and loving in the new...


1) Go read them over with
2) Read the Kolbrin as well (another version of the bible between the old and the new)
3) Read several different denominations of christians books
4) Come back and tell me the "truth"

Edit:
Also don't forget the inclusive area of god's change from one ethnicity to hoping on the bandwagon so that god's body (the church) can accept money from everyone, and to further help you combat your sin.

Exactly why does a God want my money, or why as in fearfect's references of verses does god want the gold? ... Hrmmm, all powerful being wanting gold to be claimed in his name... Oh, yeah, nevermind, what was I thinking, no outside form of manipulation whatsoever. /gives god some more money



i want you to tell me where the diffrent God is and where he comes in, i've read the bible enough aswhell as the apocrypha, i still don't see it, and you still have'nt proven it..

Jesus and his disciples were homeless and poor, he taught alot about hating money, i think you have a problem with church and not God..


Church + God = religion... I have no problem with either. I do however have issues with people being so stuck in their views and not being open minded. BTW... this all comes down to whether Jesus did in fact exist... which of course... I hate to admit... requires FAITH, as nothing of a scientific nature correlates his existance.

So I ask you, as a man of FAITH (or a women, don't know your gender) to have faith in those links I provided... and have FAITH in objective analysis, as I've nothing to gain by suggesting that god is a control mechanism by the people. I'll be demonized, called a sinner, ridiculed, etc.... those that keep you in your train of thought will gain $, prominance, more supporters, more power, more influence, etc...

I've got a problem with people refuting evidence with me, when I've provided plenty of info which suggests their belief is a fallacy.

Feel free to keep it if it serves you. Their are so many different forms of Christianity, and for one to assert a higher truth of one verses another... is rather backasswards, as they all do that. It's like finding a needle in a haystack, only their is no needle :lol:.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: JCoke]
    #3908199 -

JCoke said:
Psychoactive1984 said:
JCoke said:
fearfect said:
//edit this wasnt meant for your "show me a verse" this was for a previous post about god's transformation

straight from the book of joshua

Jos 6:1 Now Jericho was straitly shut up because of the children of Israel: none went out, and none came in.
Jos 6:2 And the LORD said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour.
Jos 6:3 And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days.
........
Jos 6:16 And it came to pass at the seventh time, when the priests blew with the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, Shout; for the LORD hath given you the city.
Jos 6:17 And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.
....
Jos 6:19 But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the LORD: they shall come into the treasury of the LORD.
......
Jos 6:24 And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.

in the NT, god preaches pacifism. to love your neighbor


terrible


again, the world changes, people change, the times change..

it's a modern way of thinking to see war and death as entirely bad, but really it's just a part of life, Jesus taught on a more personnal level, how you should treat each other, we all die, does it matter if God gives us a quick death by sword ot a long slow cancerouis death??


Yes it does... especially if I choose not to believe in him. More so, you are constantly contradicting yourself by deviating from your bible.

Which version are you choosing btw?


i countradicted myself? how so?

honestly, the bible i use is all the ones here
biblegateway

i use all of them, don't got one of my own..


By espousing your belief which is rigid in it's form, yet speaking of the changing influences of life. Don't forget, the bible has changed... a "couple" times throughout history... don't need to take my word on it... but those that helped scribe, and translate express the fact that they were changing it.

Now, If a politician told me he was lying to me to my face, and even wrote a book about it... Then asked me to trust him and give my vote in confidence... Do you believe that I would? (Hint: no way in fuckin' hell I would)


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3908204 -

fearfect said:
how do you base what you believe on an emotion? If it makes you feel good does that make it true?


To Love is to will into exsistance. It is an inspiration to many emotions. You aren't trying to say that Love isn't real, are you? That people don't really will will things into exsistance?

Quote:
I may differ from you greatly in my understanding of how things work, but from what i have found is that believing something to be true, does not make it true. if you have had no divine intervention, then everything that you believe in involving god stems from either someone else's divine intervention, or something that you have just made up because it suits your needs.


My eyes are open to much of the spiritual realm. I have had divine "intervention" in my life.

Quote:
Who is to say that god is really all about love? Why could god not be all about hate? Why could he not in actuality enjoy slaughtering people?


I am to say it because of what I wrote in my previous post.

God can't be hate because hate is to will into non exsistance And non exsistance cannot happen within exsistance.

Now why would God have to do something as futile as to kill to enjoy exsistance? God is God and doesn't have want or desire. Also, we are all a part of God, so why would God enjoy hurting Godself through hurting people? It's like stabbing yourself and saying it feels good - It doesn't make sence.


--------------------
Agent 727
7

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3908216 -

Psychoactive1984 said:
Serial killers "LOVE" to kill!!

God is Love.


If to Love is to will into exsistance, then it wouldn't be total love to kill someone in the first place because the very act of killing is to try to bring out of exsistance. To love to kill is to have a dicotomy. It doesn't workout in reality as Love.


--------------------
Agent 727
7

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3908221 -


Church + God = religion... I have no problem with either. I do however have issues with people being so stuck in their views and not being open minded. BTW... this all comes down to whether Jesus did in fact exist... which of course... I hate to admit... requires FAITH, as nothing of a scientific nature correlates his existance.

So I ask you, as a man of FAITH (or a women, don't know your gender) to have faith in those links I provided... and have FAITH in objective analysis, as I've nothing to gain by suggesting that god is a control mechanism by the people. I'll be demonized, called a sinner, ridiculed, etc.... those that keep you in your train of thought will gain $, prominance, more supporters, more power, more influence, etc...

I've got a problem with people refuting evidence with me, when I've provided plenty of info which suggests their belief is a fallacy.

Feel free to keep it if it serves you. Their are so many different forms of Christianity, and for one to assert a higher truth of one verses another... is rather backasswards, as they all do that. It's like finding a needle in a haystack, only their is no needle :lol:.

fair enough, but like i said earlier, i believe from what i've experianced, not from what i read or have been told, in fact, what i've been told is what kept me seperated from God, i trap in the church's mind set of who and what God is, what your describing is called "blind faith" and people using blind faith to rob them, by that i agree with what your doing, in fact, i hope jesus is just a myth, and i want you to tell everyone what you know, God is much much better when you experiance him first hand...keep up the good work  :grin: :thumbup:


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3908223 -

im sorry, i really don't follow what you are talking about. are you saying that when you hate, you are making things not exist? What does that mean?? What exactly are you "willing into existence"?

"God is God and doesn't have want or desire."
did he tell you this?

"Also, we are all a part of God, so why would God enjoy hurting Godself through hurting people?"
did he tell you this too?

How do you know these things are true? Don't tell me you just "know".

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3908227 -

Psychoactive1984 said:
MAGnum said:
Psychoactive1984 said:
MAGnum said:
fearfect said:
have you ever read the bible?  In the old testament god kills THOUSANDS of people at a time just because he wants their land.

Tell me you think this is ok.


Absolutely not OK.  Joshua broke the ten commandments Moses gave the Hebrew people by going to war.  Moses's Commandment not to kill was killed.  Honestly, think critically about who wrote the Bible.  Don't you think Joshua could have been hearing a demon instead of God?  What if he never heard God at all?  Could Joshua have used God to insight people to war?  What if tehre were differant God's that joshua referred to as God?  God doesn't kill.  People kill you and a Spirit can also kill, although it is not very common.

The one true God is Love.  The Bible is a lump of info and the truth must be refined from it.


The Lump of Coal that Santa gives you if you've been naughty is the same thing. Just have to find a use for it.  :whatever:


A heap of coal would be an excellant gift to someone who is cold.  Again I say, do not let religion and the world man has created ruin God for you.


You missed the point.

If I want to play around with a crossword puzzle... I will, If I want a riddle... I'll seek one. If I want a belief system about how I'm to live my life... I don't expect to have to decipher it, nor to have others decipher it for me.

Imagine as far as you say our whole legal system was implemented in that manner... "Mysterious ways" indeed.

Sorry... I don't need an external force to pep me up. I liken myself to the way a football team works.. in conjunction... and god is a chearleader. I've got enough "spirit" in me, and a belief in god won't help  :laugh:


And what I say to that is that the spirit within you is God as well.


--------------------
Agent 727
7

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3908235 -

MAGnum said:
fearfect said:
how do you base what you believe on an emotion? If it makes you feel good does that make it true?


To Love is to will into exsistance. It is an inspiration to many emotions. You aren't trying to say that Love isn't real, are you? That people don't really will will things into exsistance?

Quote:
I may differ from you greatly in my understanding of how things work, but from what i have found is that believing something to be true, does not make it true. if you have had no divine intervention, then everything that you believe in involving god stems from either someone else's divine intervention, or something that you have just made up because it suits your needs.


My eyes are open to much of the spiritual realm. I have had divine "intervention" in my life.

Quote:
Who is to say that god is really all about love? Why could god not be all about hate? Why could he not in actuality enjoy slaughtering people?


I am to say it because of what I wrote in my previous post.

God can't be hate because hate is to will into non exsistance And non exsistance cannot happen within exsistance.

Now why would God have to do something as futile as to kill to enjoy exsistance? God is God and doesn't have want or desire. Also, we are all a part of God, so why would God enjoy hurting Godself through hurting people? It's like stabbing yourself and saying it feels good - It doesn't make sence.


Well;

God condemns the sinners, god hates them, else he wouldn't let them go to hell. Unless that's like putting someone in the corner... but somehow with all the controversy, I doubt that.

God tore the shit out of that one city (Sodom and Gomora sp?)... guess he just wasn't happy with them... Please help me out, if this isn't hatred then tell me what is.

Or does he have to do that? He has to do NOTHING... he is what determines everything by way of what that ol' good book says... So, he wants to do it... sounds like a desire to me, and a very intense desire at that.

God also wants you to believe in him, and wants you to bring him gold (verses in this post)... want is a form of desire. Come back to me when you're done contradicting yourself.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/12/05 04:55 PM)

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3908248 -

MAGnum said:
Psychoactive1984 said:
MAGnum said:
Psychoactive1984 said:
MAGnum said:
fearfect said:
have you ever read the bible?  In the old testament god kills THOUSANDS of people at a time just because he wants their land.

Tell me you think this is ok.


Absolutely not OK.  Joshua broke the ten commandments Moses gave the Hebrew people by going to war.  Moses's Commandment not to kill was killed.  Honestly, think critically about who wrote the Bible.  Don't you think Joshua could have been hearing a demon instead of God?  What if he never heard God at all?  Could Joshua have used God to insight people to war?  What if tehre were differant God's that joshua referred to as God?  God doesn't kill.  People kill you and a Spirit can also kill, although it is not very common.

The one true God is Love.  The Bible is a lump of info and the truth must be refined from it.


The Lump of Coal that Santa gives you if you've been naughty is the same thing. Just have to find a use for it.  :whatever:


A heap of coal would be an excellant gift to someone who is cold.  Again I say, do not let religion and the world man has created ruin God for you.


You missed the point.

If I want to play around with a crossword puzzle... I will, If I want a riddle... I'll seek one. If I want a belief system about how I'm to live my life... I don't expect to have to decipher it, nor to have others decipher it for me.

Imagine as far as you say our whole legal system was implemented in that manner... "Mysterious ways" indeed.

Sorry... I don't need an external force to pep me up. I liken myself to the way a football team works.. in conjunction... and god is a chearleader. I've got enough "spirit" in me, and a belief in god won't help  :laugh:


And what I say to that is that the spirit within you is God as well.


Wrong! I've absolved myself from anything in nature regarding "divine influence"... I envy you, really I do, I wish I could go back to the land of milk and honey and believe and to think like that.... but something happened to me when I was younger... I grew up.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3908272 -

fearfect said:
im sorry, i really don't follow what you are talking about. are you saying that when you hate, you are making things not exist? What does that mean?? What exactly are you "willing into existence"?


Is hate not to have a feeling where you wish something to not exsist?

Quote:
Quote:
"God is God and doesn't have want or desire."


did he tell you this?


No. Why would something that has everything want anything?

Quote:
Quote:
"Also, we are all a part of God, so why would God enjoy hurting Godself through hurting people?"
did he tell you this too?


Would you saw off your own arm and enjoy it?

Quote:
How do you know these things are true? Don't tell me you just "know".


It is quite obvious to me. Have I not explained everything I have been asked?

No matter what I say to you, you will probably keep asking me questions and this is important to do, but do you care to ask yourself questions as well?


--------------------
Agent 727
7

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3908308 -

I ask questions to inspire thought. I'm of my opinion (obviously). Care to respond to God's desires?

Refutation is only good to the point that a clear definitive understanding is achieved.

I don't speak for fearfect, but I do believe this is the point that he is attempting to achieve as well.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3908309 -

i think it was you who referenced Job.

if god is part of us and we are part of him, why would he allow us to suffer then? Why did he put Job through so much shit. Wouldn't that be like god cutting off his own arm?

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3908316 -

"No. Why would something that has everything want anything?"

does your god not "want" our love?

I am also trying to get you to question your own beliefs. I have been trying to get you to get to the bottom of why you believe what you believe by asking you what foundation you base your beliefs. It appears that you base your beliefs on Love and that you attribute "good" with "Love". These are two extremely subjective issues and personally I would never use them as a crutch to justify my belief system.

Edited by fearfect (03/12/05 05:11 PM)

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3908322 -

Psychoactive1984 said:
Well;

God condemns the sinners, god hates them, else he wouldn't let them go to hell. Unless that's like putting someone in the corner... but somehow with all the controversy, I doubt that.


May I ask you to let go of the old bounderies that have been given to you about God? A God who condemns is a false God, simply put. What I say is that God is exsistance itself and easy to understand because God is all around you and within you.

Quote:
God tore the shit out of that one city (Sodom and Gomora sp?)... guess he just wasn't happy with them... Please help me out, if this isn't hatred then tell me what is.


People may have thought that it was God who destroyed that city, but what if it simply became the site of a meteor shower or volcanic activity? What if it was some other spirit? Perhaps someone unlocked some sort of long lost technology and blew the city to bits? It could have been anything, but it was not God. The story is so ancient that we don't really know what happenned.

Quote:
Or does he have to do that? He has to do NOTHING... he is what determines everything by way of what that ol' good book says... So, he wants to do it... sounds like a desire to me, and a very intense desire at that.


Perhaps exsistance is not a desire, but a need.what if God never wished anything into exsistance, but simply needed everything into exsistance?

God also wants you to believe in him, and wants you to bring him gold (verses in this post)... want is a form of desire. Come back to me when you're done contradicting yourself.



--------------------
Agent 727
7

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3908337 -

Well... as long as we are speaking of possibilities...

Perhaps you should look to logic, and stop preying on illusions which attempt to explain everything through such simplistic terms.

A need is a desire btw...

You can dig a hole however deep you like in fantasy and delusions. I'm just trying to uncover you.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3908341 -

"but it was not God. The story is so ancient that we don't really know what happenned. "

so then how do you know it was not god? I'm not trying to nit pick everything you say, I just want you to realize the contradictions.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3908347 -

fearfect said:
"No. Why would something that has everything want anything?"

does your god not "want" our love?


If you have no love for anything, including the self, you would surely wither away and die quite quickly. I mean, you would have to be so loveless that you couldn't will your arm to move. Remember that to love is to will into exsistance and to move is to will movement into exsistance.

Because we at least minutely love, we automatically love God because God is everything.


--------------------
Agent 727
7

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3908385 -

what if i were to tell you that love is merely a chemical reaction in the brain, specifically the "hypothalamus" or reptilian part. Scientists have been able to inflict various emotions in animals by stimulating nerves in this part of the brain. no matter how much you glorify it, love is nothing more then a chemical reaction.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3908386 -

Magnum... please espouse the full degree of you beliefs, be completely and utterly clear.

I've lost sight of candyland a while ago, you're going to need to redirect me.

Include your full definition of love please, including tough love, because I believe that God slaughtering all the peoples that he has said to have slauthered by word of the good book was a form of tough love. That's about as far into candyland as I'll attempt to venture.

Please define your "version" of love and the constant it has on the world, and how god's love isn't, nor has it been throughout time been enough to save mankind... until he and Jesus allow most of mankind to perish for the ones that he "LOVES" the most.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3908424 -

fearfect said:
i think it was you who referenced Job.

if god is part of us and we are part of him, why would he allow us to suffer then? Why did he put Job through so much shit. Wouldn't that be like god cutting off his own arm?


Suffering comes from within and is a choice we enter into. You may feel pain, but do suffer it? Now, the book of Job is possibly the oldest book in the Bible. It has been said to predate the books of Moses. Whether or not Job exsisted is one question, some theorize that Job was simply a mythical figure. The truth is lost in time. Either way, it was not God who tormented Job, but Satan.

I'm pretty tired so I am not even going to write the rest.


--------------------
Agent 727
7

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3908433 -

But God who allowed it... anybody like Chess?


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3908442 -

My website has alot for you, it is the first link under my sig.
I'm really tired though, so I am going to get a snack.

Good Night.


--------------------
Agent 727
7

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3908465 -

Have a goodnight.

I gave it a look through and it made as much sense to me as a Van Gogh does to a blindman.

If you have no set beliefs, you're just picking and choosing beliefs that support your liking. Your version of the beast is mere fantasy, and what is alluded to is contrived as far as I can tell. As it has no other basis then what you want to believe. You're more then entitled to your beliefs; but please don't argue one god If you are using multiple stances of him and incorporating your own philosophy, as the deviation is rather senseless.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Belief in Jesus Christ our Lord GOD to be YOUR very Salvation.... [Re: Quick Blaze]
    #3909356 -

OOoooops...!


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

Edited by PhanTomCat (03/12/05 09:17 PM)

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3909364 -

Psychoactive1984 said:
http://www.nobeliefs.com



Excellent site!



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3909377 -

Why does this "struggle" seem to be so intense tonight....?  Is the end near....?    :heart:

In case it is, My love goes out to all that will feel it...


:heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: sketchytripper]
    #3909395 -

You can't see gravity either ,but you can prove it's existance.

My main question is "Does god realize that, using the brain and rationale that he allegedly gave us, it's impossible for me to belive in him and thus, be saved?


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3909419 -

Why does this "struggle" seem to be so intense tonight....?

Perhaps that's why there's a thread called "Flow vs Effort"..

-Twilight Zone music-


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3909748 -

PhanTomCat said:
Why does this "struggle" seem to be so intense tonight....?  Is the end near....?    :heart:

In case it is, My love goes out to all that will feel it...


:heartpump:


I'll feel it, and will continue to feel it... provided it isn't akin to god's love... as we've covered what "love" that strong can do :lol: .

The end is always near... as is the begining.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3910853 -

Psychoactive1984 said:
Have a goodnight.

I gave it a look through and it made as much sense to me as a Van Gogh does to a blindman.

If you have no set beliefs, you're just picking and choosing beliefs that support your liking.


Good mornin'

The site is not full built yet and I have been busy working. I'll eventually finish it. I'm thinking of scrapping most of it and fixing it. There are actually plenty of Logical set beliefs there and I don't choose them according to "liking" but according to how it is. Like I said, the truth is out there and burried in a huge lumps of information, one must truly take all the lumps, refine the truth from them and connect them together from several sources. If science didn't have multiple sources of information like you say I shouldn't, would that make sence?

Quote:
Your version of the beast is mere fantasy, and what is alluded to is contrived as far as I can tell.


I have had several visions. I suggest you read up on the Hopi prophecies who prophecied the swaztika (thier symbol of migration) being used as a symbol of war. And no, it is not reversed, it is the exact same symbol.

Quote:
As it has no other basis then what you want to believe.


Actually, the 666 means 6 for Globe, 6 for kingdom and 6 for unverse. Three symbols of divinity. Notice in the Bible, the book is writing directly to "He who has understanding."

Quote:
You're more then entitled to your beliefs; but please don't argue one god If you are using multiple stances of him and incorporating your own philosophy, as the deviation is rather senseless.


As I am free, you are free.

But, that makes no sence, my friend. In hinduism, I believe it is written that all of the Gods are reflections of the one true God. Also, Hinduism teaches that other, outside beliefs can be learned from. Again, if one wants to learn about something, one goes to as many sources as possible collecting information and deliberating it on thier own as I do. Not everything I believe in is written down and it is all rather scatterred on the website.


--------------------
Agent 727
7

Edited by MAGnum (03/13/05 10:10 AM)

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3911083 -

Soopax wrote:

"I have a question that I'd like to direct mainly to people who call themselves "Christian",..."
"If I can't accept Jesus as my "savior", or even the existence of God, due to the lack of any scientific proof of such, and I don't think that anything would cause me to accept them without real concrete proof, is it possible for me to get to heaven?"

The notion that the act of believing secures salvation is not according to the scriptures. No human action can be the basis of salvation, not even the act of believing. The best religious works of man are an abomination to a thrice Holy God who demands perfection in all points. If the act of faith were a condition to salvation, then it must be performed without error and be done perfectly at all times. This is not to imply that salvation can happen without faith, all (without exception) who are truly saved do believe. However the faith is a sovereign gift, and is the evidence of the salvation that has been freely given. To some it has been given, to most it has not been revealed, this is in accordance to the ordination of God who works all things after the council of His own will.



"One of the things I'm thinking, lets say that I knew that I was going to die in the immediate future. My mind might, in a fear reaction, begin to wonder about the after-life and decide that maybe I should just 'think' to my self "OK, I believe in God and Jesus, hes my savior". But God would certainly know that I didn't really believe it. So how does a person who is so science-minded accept the unprovable?"

A man must be born from above before he can understand or believe any spiritual truth, otherwise it is foolishness and a fairy tale to him. Just as a person doesn't will himself to be born the first time, neither does a man will himself to be born in the new spiritual birth. This is the work of God, that the Holy Spirit come to His people and convince them of sin, righteousness and judgment, and convert them and teach them the truth. I was a science minded person, a complete agnostic, yet despite my hard heart, He decided to give me every spiritual blessing in Christ. I would advise that you keep searching, and read the scriptures, and perhaps He might be pleased to grant to you the new heart, and the faith, and the joy of salvation.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: MAGnum]
    #3912026 -

MAGnum said:
Psychoactive1984 said:
Have a goodnight.

I gave it a look through and it made as much sense to me as a Van Gogh does to a blindman.

If you have no set beliefs, you're just picking and choosing beliefs that support your liking.


Good mornin'

The site is not full built yet and I have been busy working. I'll eventually finish it. I'm thinking of scrapping most of it and fixing it. There are actually plenty of Logical set beliefs there and I don't choose them according to "liking" but according to how it is. Like I said, the truth is out there and burried in a huge lumps of information, one must truly take all the lumps, refine the truth from them and connect them together from several sources. If science didn't have multiple sources of information like you say I shouldn't, would that make sence?

I've provided you with true scientific means of evaluation... yet for some reason you don't seem to give them the time of day. Sorry, science isn't one sided, it doesn't always work to your benefit... unless of course you've learned some archaic form that is unknown to me. The truth should be self evident in one volume, if you need outside sourcing, then the bible isn't sufficient enough to explain itself, in which case interpret it however you please; inasmuchas a student requires a Teacher to make sense of the knowledge... so to does the bible according to your belief need outside help... hence it's not proficient to the degree that it should be recognized as a teaching manual as it were.

Quote:
Your version of the beast is mere fantasy, and what is alluded to is contrived as far as I can tell.


I have had several visions. I suggest you read up on the Hopi prophecies who prophecied the swaztika (thier symbol of migration) being used as a symbol of war. And no, it is not reversed, it is the exact same symbol.

STOP! You do not know how to explain yourself. I suggest you get a dictionary and review the meaning of contrived. The underlined passage is enough to show me that... it is indeed contrived. I can have visions of a galactic cake spawning the solar system... and assert it's truth and correlate any religious document by way of my interpretation... nonetheless the galactic cake is contrived.


Quote:
As it has no other basis then what you want to believe.


Actually, the 666 means 6 for Globe, 6 for kingdom and 6 for unverse. Three symbols of divinity. Notice in the Bible, the book is writing directly to "He who has understanding."

Well, accordingly you do not have understanding unfortuanetly. Beyond that... no, the bible doesn't say that, provide me versus with explicit references. The number is one of man. I can give so many variations on the meaning of the number, I can give you a name with 3 p's at the end which would in fact be a number of man. As for instance with chemistry their are shells s, p, d, and f. Look it up, you'll see what I'm getting at. I can abstract the notion to the nth degree... the thing is that it is far too generalized and open to interpretation to make proper sense of it, which further allows self fulfilling prophecies.

Further, 6 in biblical terms is a number short of perfection-- that being imperfection. 5 is the number symbolic of man, and 7 is divine. I suggest you do some research before you attempt to debate with me.

Quote:
You're more then entitled to your beliefs; but please don't argue one god If you are using multiple stances of him and incorporating your own philosophy, as the deviation is rather senseless.


As I am free, you are free.

But, that makes no sence, my friend. In hinduism, I believe it is written that all of the Gods are reflections of the one true God. Also, Hinduism teaches that other, outside beliefs can be learned from. Again, if one wants to learn about something, one goes to as many sources as possible collecting information and deliberating it on thier own as I do. Not everything I believe in is written down and it is all rather scatterred on the website.

~Galactic Cake




--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/13/05 04:11 PM)

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3913669 -

On another note:

I suppose I really shouldn't be arguing with you, for you suggest that you are a Prophet of God acording to your website. A prophet of god has a few grammatical and syntax errors on his website... If you ask me, you are for more human then you choose to believe.

http://www.angelfire.com/dragon2/prophets/home.html

and, perhaps I'm wrong in even attempting to debate with you, especially since you assert, and I quote:

"Everything I say is true and I will meticulously go through a philisophical questioning process to proove it."

Which means I'll be getting a reply right?

I suggest you choose your words more carefully.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3936461 -

/looks for MAGnum.



--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: SoopaX]
    #4541758 -

SoopaX said:
I have a question that I'd like to direct mainly to people who call themselves "Christian", and have the basic belief that the only way to get into heaven is through accepting Jesus as your savior. Other comments are welcome, but it's that group that I'm wondering about. So, here goes;

If I can't accept Jesus as my "savior", or even the existance of God, due to the lack of any scientific proof of such, and I don't think that anything would cause me to accept them without real concrete proof, is it possible for me to get to heaven? One of the things I'm thinking, lets say that I knew that I was going to die in the immediate future. My mind might, in a fear reaction, begin to wonder about the after-life and decide that maybe I should just 'think' to my self "OK, I believe in God and Jesus, hes my savior". But God would certainly know that I didn't really believe it. So how does a person who is so science-minded accept the unprovable?



I had a hard time recognizing that I didn't believe in God as a son of God person that came once and for all time as Jesus. I just don't believe. I asked many times. If it's true show me some proof. But no proof ever came. Not a word, not a breath or even a sign of Jesus ever moved me.

If there's a God then She speaks to me in a way that I can understand and not through Christian symbolism.

We have all been inundated and partially brainwashed into Christian symbolism and symbols are hard to reconcile. Carl Jung would say that many people act out the archetypes of the collective unconscious.

I have felt particularly close to being damned at times, and finally I said, ok, fuck it, then I'm damned. If I ever became Christian it would be in total and abrupt contradistinction to everything I ever believed and strove for. So in essence if I was Christian I would be damning myself, or at least showing tremendous self hatred.

The only consequence of that self hatred would be my hating everything else as well. And is all that hatred and fear the way to God or the path of the holy? I would really really hope not because that would be the way of unending war and conflict.

Fuck that. I am a peace lover. If God likes war then I must say that I am against God. But I dont believe that's the case. In fact, I don't believe in God as described by the religions of the world.

What I do believe in is awareness and its natural peace. Therefore I meditate. And it brings me peace.

I have found practical truth in the tantras. Hindu and Buddhist.

All that other stuff is the confused ramblings of unhealthiness and borderline scitzophrenia. And so I actually have to feel sorry for those people who have gone that Christian route. My sister was a nun and it drove her to have many nervous breakdowns.

Don't go that route. Choose peace, and unity and the advaita - nondual philosophy. That's my wish upon you.


--------------------
...or something






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