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Christianity and "salvation"
    #3905416 -

I have a question that I'd like to direct mainly to people who call themselves "Christian", and have the basic belief that the only way to get into heaven is through accepting Jesus as your savior. Other comments are welcome, but it's that group that I'm wondering about. So, here goes;

If I can't accept Jesus as my "savior", or even the existance of God, due to the lack of any scientific proof of such, and I don't think that anything would cause me to accept them without real concrete proof, is it possible for me to get to heaven? One of the things I'm thinking, lets say that I knew that I was going to die in the immediate future. My mind might, in a fear reaction, begin to wonder about the after-life and decide that maybe I should just 'think' to my self "OK, I believe in God and Jesus, hes my savior". But God would certainly know that I didn't really believe it. So how does a person who is so science-minded accept the unprovable?


--------------------


Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: SoopaX]
    #3905438 -

SoopaX said:
So how does a person who is so science-minded accept the unprovable?


first, let me make this clear; I'M NOT A CHRISTIAN.


They don't they are cast into hell for not believing everything. That has historically been the case (can provide info if ya want). They have either been told they were going to hell, or their lives were made to simulate hell by those of the religion.

Beyond that, God realized you've made this post, and as a result, if you don't turn the 700 club on now, and if you don't begin to pray then, you can pretty much wave heaven good :bye:


However, their is hope, as some don't believe that Jesus even existed:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

Beyond that, this link provides info that not one single piece of evidence was ever recovered which suggested that Jesus existed in the time that he existed. Also several notable peices of info which show how some of those that had the ability to alter the bible.... indeed planned to (if not actually did).

If that were the case, it couldn't be accounted for through any other form, as the church is in possession of the documents (including the Kolbrin, as it is after the changes that were made to the bible, but retains some info predating the new testament).

Edit:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...2&fpart=all

Also evidence of changes of the Bibles intended consumer. (several posts on it)



--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/12/05 02:15 AM)

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: SoopaX]
    #3905469 -

Why would you want to get a confirmation of proof from a person that you should be going to a place that doesn't exist because it is made from a God that you do not believe in....?    Hhhhhmmmm.... 

Most all of scientific "proof" is of "theories".... 
And, a  "theory" is not a "Fact".... 
There are only "Facts" of "Life"....
Within "Life", there is "Heart"....
Within "Heart", there is God....

Simple scientific deduction....  Shall I do it again....?


By the way, in my "re-birth", I refuse to give myself a religious "tag"....  So, I would not call myself a "Christian" as you would say....  As I have no basis to believe that I am anything other than ME, starting a relationship with someone I have always loved....  I believe in GOD as Jesus Christ our Savior, and I am growing a relationship with my new old friend in my/our own way of understanding....  Just as I would any new friend....    :smile:  :heart:   



ME....


:heartpump::heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3905532 -

God is not a fact by that reasoning either... Apparently, from what I tend to get form people is that one cannot hold god up to scientific principals for God's ways are mysterious...

And one should be able to get confirmation of a god to some degree shouldn't they? Most who are actually religious, alter their lives as well as their habits to conform with the tenants set forth by a god. I'd sure as hell want confirmation if I'm going to drastically alter my lifestyle.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3905544 -

/Roleplays a Christian

Why question god? God doesn't question you? Jesus is with you and understands that you would like to have faith and affirmation by way of one of man's greatest mechanisms of proof; that of scientific deduction.

But... You must realize, that the Devil consistantly, and constantly is preying on your every move. The devil himself has many machinations that he uses, as he wants you to join his side, and to shun god. The minute you begin to question Jesus, and God, is the minute the devil begins to prey on your tortured soul.

Do yourself a favor, STOP! You are thinking exactly how the devil wants you to think. You must cast the Devil out from your mind, and not listen to the words of men, for they will lead you astray! Don't question god, and you will live forever!!!

(Sorry, not meant to be offensive, but I figure you'll get similar logic from a devout believer; as I've experienced on many occasions logic using a similar train of thought)


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3905590 -

Believing in god is all about faith. We can't see the air thats all around us but we know its there. Just because you can't see God doesn't mean he doesn't exsist. I am a christian and i know that jesus is my lord and savior. I am a sinner like everyone else but i know god will always forgive me and always be there for me.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: sketchytripper]
    #3905610 -

im not a christian, but im the son of a christian pastor so i have a fairly extensive database of knowledge on the religion. In order to be accepted into heaven, you have to first admit to god that you are a sinner, that you have sinned and that you are not worthy to enter heaven. Secondly you have to aknowledge that god sent his only son to take responsibility for all the sin of the world including yours so that you might be worthy to enter heaven. and basically you have to repent and actually be sorry for all the sins you have done even though they have already been payed for (by jesus). You have to admit and realize that there is nothing you can do, at all, that will get you into heaven. Doing all the good things in the world cannot make you pure since you are inherently a sinner by nature (even babies are sinners; we are born sinful)

And of course in doing all this you have to actually believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is infact a god behind all this. This is the hardest part for most people which is why christians have weekly meetings to give their faith a boost.

My parents used to go to these week long christian retreats where there were nothing but christians and they would praise the lord and all that good stuff. when they would return they would always say they felt renewed in their faith and that their faith was strong. This is why they insist that christian fellowship and prayer are so important, otherwise satan will make you stumble.

of course this is all a load of shit empowered by people who have had their mid-life crisis's and found christianity as the way out :P but of course, thats just my opinion. if you love god, ill take your word for it, don't try to convince me. and if there is infact a heaven and a hell, i don't want to spend eternity with the fucker that put me through all this shit on earth.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: SoopaX]
    #3905621 -

to answer your original question:
"My mind might, in a fear reaction, begin to wonder about the after-life and decide that maybe I should just 'think' to my self "OK, I believe in God and Jesus, hes my savior". "

that wouldn't work.
but if your mind were to drive you to the point where you actually convinced yourself, be it through madness or terror of death, that there is a god and you follow all the steps in my previous post, you would most definately get into heaven.

The idea is that your belief needs to be true, and god, much like santa claus, can see if you've been good or bad! Theres no hiding the truth!

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3905658 -

fearfect said:
of course this is all a load of shit empowered by people who have had their mid-life crisis's and found christianity as the way out :P but of course, thats just my opinion.  if you love god, ill take your word for it, don't try to convince me.  and if there is infact a heaven and a hell, i don't want to spend eternity with the fucker that put me through all this shit on earth.


:thumbup: :lol: chess anyone?

PhanTomCat said:
Why would you want to get a confirmation of proof from a person that you should be going to a place that doesn't exist because it is made from a God that you do not believe in....?    Hhhhhmmmm.... 

Most all of scientific "proof" is of "theories".... 
And, a  "theory" is not a "Fact".... 
There are only "Facts" of "Life"....
Within "Life", there is "Heart"....
Within "Heart", there is God....

Simple scientific deduction....  Shall I do it again....?


Just comming back to this thought, as I was away busy and something else came to mind. In my post I've provided principles of scientific deduction on the basis of science, yet I've no direct mention of it from you.

Now, If you are to justify an existence with scientific evidence, it would seem to me the best possible way would be to use scientific reasoning.

Beyond that, more often then not, this topic involving scientific deduction and the discussion of religion is often a taboo subject, as few are willing to mix the two of them.... because they don't mix all that well to say the least.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3905669 -

if you're alive, and you don't know if God exists, than that is how you should live your life, as one he just does'nt know..

if God parts the fucking sky open and comes down to you and says "I do exist!", than you should live your life knowing he does exists..

and of course, if you found proof that there is no God, than i guess there's no reason to live a certain way, now is there??

you see, there's a diffrence between not knowing if there is a God, and Denying there is a God, an unbeliever is one who denies, there the ones who go to hell for not believing..

i believe it was Swami Rama who once said "you really don't need to know much, but you difantly need to practice what you know."


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: JCoke]
    #3905692 -

JCoke said:
you see, there's a diffrence between not knowing if there is a God, and Denying there is a God, an unbeliever is one who denies, there the ones who go to hell for not believing..


Thank you... and see you their my friend! :lol:

Sorry, but thanks for condemning half the world... damn religionist!! (re: race ist = racist, apply that to religion)

For one, by condemning us, you're asserting your "ultimate truth" to is the only true truth (which is false). Furthermore, your suggesting that your belief is inherently superior for you will get the "good human being" certificate of conformity (~heaven), and everyone else isn't going to get theirs for their belief system. Now, their are many religions out their, and I could make one up that involves your condemning half the world to some concept, would place you in the bowels of hell... but I'll choose not to for now.

Read through history, look up some of the logic and incidents, as well as the countless atrocities performed by many of the religions offering a peice of exagerated idealism pie. Dunno, seems to me, that they're the ones that do their own evil deeds that they talk against... but I'm sure we'll have another way to discount their actions from the collective belief system of a few noteworthy religious figures... which of course, by way of your original synopsis will ultimately put them all in the same boat.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/12/05 12:43 PM)

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3905713 -

wtf are you talking about?

i condemed half the world? how so?

i fail to see how what i said is some how asserting my ultimate truth to be the one and only truth..

soopa asked a christian a question, i gave what know.


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: JCoke]
    #3905722 -

JCoke said:
wtf are you talking about?

i condemed half the world? how so?

i fail to see how what i said is some how asserting my ultimate truth to be the one and only truth..

soopa asked a christian a question, i gave what know.


JCoke said:
you see, there's a diffrence between not knowing if there is a God, and Denying there is a God, an unbeliever is one who denies, there the ones who go to hell for not believing..



Sorry, I see now how that can be misconstrued...  :whatever:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3905775 -

look it, it's just as much of a belief to say "i don't believe there is a God" and saying "i do believe there is a God", neither side has yet to be proven..

if you got no proof there is no God, than you got no grounds to stand and say that, if you do got proof, than you got ground, i'm just saying until you got ground, be honest with yourself and with everyone and with God (if there is a God), because that is the ground your on, i fail to see what your reading in my post...

i tell you God has already proven himself to me, but he has'nt proven himself to you apparently, and i have no proof for you that he did reveal himself to me, so what should i tell you? do i believe in God and am I on the right grounds to say that is does exist?? or should i just keep that to myself (too late i guess)? i would keep that to myself, if i did'nt explain this to you, but for the sake of elaborating my post, i did..

i guess i some how comdemed half the world again??

I guess i am some how asserting my ultimate truth to be the one and only truth again??

:shrug:


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: SoopaX]
    #3905979 -

SoopaX said:
If I can't accept Jesus as my "savior", or even the existance of God, due to the lack of any scientific proof of such, and I don't think that anything would cause me to accept them without real concrete proof, is it possible for me to get to heaven? One of the things I'm thinking, lets say that I knew that I was going to die in the immediate future. My mind might, in a fear reaction, begin to wonder about the after-life and decide that maybe I should just 'think' to my self "OK, I believe in God and Jesus, hes my savior". But God would certainly know that I didn't really believe it. So how does a person who is so science-minded accept the unprovable?


Is not the kingdom of God everywhere, within the self and in every nook and cranny?If you think you will only fing the kingdom of heaven only in one book or in one man, you are mistaken for it exsists in every particle and galaxy.

You make your own heaven and hell both in life or death. If you get caught up in sheol, you are the only one who is keeping yourself there.


--------------------
Agent 727
7

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: fearfect]
    #3906017 -

fearfect said:
In order to be accepted into heaven, you have to first admit to god that you are a sinner, that you have sinned and that you are not worthy to enter heaven.


The problem with this is that it doesn't make sence. God made us all worthy of heaven. I don't like the "club" heaven is prtrayed to be. When it comes to the kingdom of God, there are no have nots. All are part of the kingdom reguardless of actions.

Quote:
Secondly you have to aknowledge that god sent his only son to take responsibility for all the sin of the world including yours so that you might be worthy to enter heaven.


Whatever happenned to those verses in Job where God got all of his sons together? What about John 10:30-35 where Jesus calls even his enemies Gods. This is complete bullshit because all things are derived from God. Jesus's responsability went far beyond showing that sin is based on lies (read Mary's Gospel).

Quote:
and basically you have to repent and actually be sorry for all the sins you have done even though they have already been payed for (by jesus).


Sin is a ritual based on evil and evil is a lie because it is contradictory to God's nature. So does sin actually exsist till we manifest it by ritual? Either way, feeling bad is a way that you can be subdued by a cult. Never feel bad about anything; accept and move on.

Quote:
You have to admit and realize that there is nothing you can do, at all, that will get you into heaven.


Only because you are already part of heaven. If you look up you see the sky and call it heaven. If you looked up from pluto and saw Earth, it would also be a part of heaven from there. This is heaven, this is our reality. We make it heaven or hell.

Quote:
Doing all the good things in the world cannot make you pure since you are inherently a sinner by nature (even babies are sinners; we are born sinful)


That's a crock of shit. i have never heard of a hateful, rascist baby. Jesus says in the Gospel nof Mary wuite clearly that sin is contrary to our nature. He goes on to say it is the reason why we get sick and die.

Quote:
And of course in doing all this you have to actually believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is infact a god behind all this. This is the hardest part for most people which is why christians have weekly meetings to give their faith a boost.


Why would God love you any less for not accepting a narrow minded view of God? Christians who believe this need to realize that God is all around them and in them. God is hardly invisable.

Quote:
My parents used to go to these week long christian retreats where there were nothing but christians and they would praise the lord and all that good stuff. when they would return they would always say they felt renewed in their faith and that their faith was strong. This is why they insist that christian fellowship and prayer are so important, otherwise satan will make you stumble.


I read an article somewhere that the church was run by people who practiced Satanism in secret. I wonder if that is why the followers are kept so dumb. Besides that, I think modern Christianity is a major stumbling block for anyone who wants to understand God.

Quote:
of course this is all a load of shit empowered by people who have had their mid-life crisis's and found christianity as the way out :P but of course, thats just my opinion. if you love god, ill take your word for it, don't try to convince me.


I agree that modern Christianity is bullcrap. The message Jesus was trying to teach has been obscured. Jesus was a very VERY powerful prophet. He taught that anyone could do what he could do and even said some will do even more magnificant things.\

Also, please don't let religion ruin God for you. Alot of the views out there are very narrow minded. If you accept life, you accept God. Eat of the fruit of God and you are God living through you just like when you eat food, you are whatever the food was living through you. God doesnt do anything except for love and you really should look into God on your own. I personally define God as exsistance itself because all that exsists is so vibrant with life, so for me it is easy to see God in everything. People want to make it hard, but the commonly held beliefe that spiritual is not physical is a lie. A phenominon has a physicle explanation whether is has made it to science or not.

Quote:
and if there is infact a heaven and a hell, i don't want to spend eternity with the fucker that put me through all this shit on earth.


The only one putting anyone through any shit is oneself.

Much love to you.


--------------------
Agent 727
7

Edited by MAGnum (03/12/05 07:11 AM)

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3906049 -

Look into the face of fear, look DEEP into it's eyes....  This fear is YOURS, and only you have to deal with it....
Look into the eyes of an animal....
Look into the eyes of an innocent child....
Look into the eyes of a loved one, and/or a wife....  :wink: (:lol:)  >>AHEM<<
Look into the eyes of all eyes....
For what you are looking at, IS LIFE....
and that LIFE is looking right back at YOU....  :eyemouth:
As those eyes hold the very life of GOD and his creation....
Now, look into your very own eyes, stare yourself down deep for a lot of time, what do you see....?
What to you truly see staring back at you....?

NOW, look into the eyes of a cold hearted serial killer,
and you will see evil with CLEAR intents of coldness as nothing but dark and truly EVIL.... 
An absence of God or anything "warm" or "good", a non-believer as it were.... 
Unfortunately, as I understand it, grounds to be condemed.... 
:shrug:  Whatcha~ gonna~ Dew~....?  :shrug:    Live Life....!  Oh, and LOVE....  :heart:

NOW, look into the eyes of someone that is passing away....  When that very life is extinguished....   
Watch the magic that is God no longer to be within that carcass, as that moment passes....


And to be noted that it is not my judgement, it is what I "feel"....
What does that mean to you....?    No matter, what does it mean to me....?   
It means that I know GOD is watching over me thru ALL of those eyes.... 
As I have asked of him to guide me and watch over me in my decisions....

And perhaps that is just my perception of the HOLE as a WHOLE....  :wink:

BlueBerry Dohnuts anyone....?  :print:  :lol:    :sun:      :heart:


ME....


:heartpump::heartpump:


And not that JCoke needs my help in explaining his words, but he has not condemed anyone that decides not to believe on their own....
They have kinda~ condemed themselves....  At least the way I understand....
A cynic can sit in the rain for 40 days and 39 nights, and DAMN, "40" is right around the corner, I will get RIGHT on that....!    :lol:
:::::looking at watch:::::

To deny "something" of perhaps what one knows nothing about, would be nothing short of blind arrogance..... 
It would be like saying "I am going to PROOVE that "red" is indeed "GREEN", just because I said so"....

BLIND....  BiNDiNG....  ARRoGaNCe....    :shake:


If one was to nutrally observe a group of lemmings running straight towards a cliff's edge,
would it be "condeming" to point this out....?  Or perhaps, it would be a "TRUTH"....?

HHhhhhhhmmmmm.....    :shrug:

:heart:

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3906070 -

MAGnum said:
Quote:
Also, please don't let religion ruin God for you. Alot of the views out there are very narrow minded. If you accept life, you accept God.
.
Eat of the fruit of God and you are God living through you just like when you eat food, you are whatever the food was living through you.


So So So Soooooo Much truth right in this quote of words.....  It is to be another ABSOLUTE that I just noticed in these very words.... 

It is of LIFE that feeds LIFE....  You cannot eat a rock, or anything else that has not had LIFE to sustain your VERY LIFE....  :oogle:  :shiftyeyes:
(Perhaps an already know "conservation of "_____" fact - to which I am not taking credit for....)

Anyway, another ABSOLUTE as seemingly discovered in this magic reletive symphony we live thru life.... 

Thanks MUCH Brother M.A.G.....!    :thumbup:


ME....


:heartpump::heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3906090 -

as a scientific person
you can still appreciate the good in people.
by analysis, that is the true best that the most religious people achieve - i.e mutual respect

if anything counts, being consistently good does.
there is lots to deal with while we are here without questioning the nature of some alternate reality - heaven.
IMO you already bought your ticket whether you believe it or not, so this is your opportunity to live with integrity and leave the afterlife to those with no life to share.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Christianity and "salvation" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3906126 -

Well, I cannot argue with the noble discipline that ANYONE so chooses to live in "the right".... 

It is just sad for me to know what I know, (not as a question), and see that so many people just "bought their ticket" --to death....

Perhaps it is time for an upgrade in tickets....?  Yes, it is a choice....  I am glad that anyone so chooses to be on "the right" in LIFE....
I still pray for you in your DEATH....


ME....


:heartpump::heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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* Questions For Christians
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