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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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why christianity is bullshit
    #4393658 - 07/11/05 09:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

ok well this simple little explanation will debunk all organized religion and not just the christians. i single out christianity only because it attepmts to impose its will and values on me the most.

first ill start with what religion is simply. its a belief system humans come up with to explain stuff. most relgion explains the big questions, why are we here, what happens when you die and how did we get here. of course it can be used to explain other things, like why it rains, why it snows, why earthquakes happen, etc... it is used to set rules for people, what you should drink, what you should eat, who you can fuck, what day you should pray on,which direction should you pray in etc...

now lets go back to the begining of civilization. im talking when humans first started getting together in little communities. each individual group had its own religous beliefs, some shared ideas, some not. as time passed and these groups began to form towns and cities and their relgions blended, melded. parts were taken from the relgions and formed into new absolute unquestionable truths. then you have wars, in which these civilizations fought and of course the culture + relgion of the dominant civilization was imposed.

Now lets fast foward to ancient greece and their beliefs, which were in turn borrowed by the roman empire as a basis for their relgion. why?? well the romans wanted to emulate greece in some ways, they were jealous of their rich culture.

So now you have Rome who decides they are gonna conquer all sorts of poor tribal motherfuckers. rome rides in a tramples these people who all have their own different take on relgion and not only imposes its beliefs on these guys but borrows aspects for itself.

you also have new religions popping up that are borrowing stuff from other relgions. the jews appear and a spin off of the judaism, christianity eventually appears. then eventually you get a spinoff of christiany called islam, more prophets, more rules, more dogma and more fun.

anyway back to rome, we all know they eventually drop polytheism and move over to christianity at the whim of some emperor. the empire must convert. this basically includes the places where all of our relatives come from. then we know that the roman empire splits up and christianity divides with it. people disagree and boom split!!!!

then you get the catholic church setup who like everybody else loves power and encourages these christians to conquer and spread the religion. so what if the actions go against the basic principles of what there supposed prophet preached. at this point relgion is power hungry and just wants to be fed human brains and money. government LOVES this idea, a reason people will actually go along with, to conquer , aquire new land,more money, new subjects...its a damn good reason too, mother-fucking god said so!!!!

now not everyone subscribes to the control of the church and these people create their own christiany spin offs. why ?? because they want their own power and following. then you got countries like england who are eager to be free of the churches control and jump in with these new relgions.(church kept kings in lines with threats of excommunication etc..)

onto colonizing the new world. so someone discovers the world isnt flat and we start seeing new land. first thought, by governments is greed, land , money resources. and of course relgion sees new people and wants new brains. so we conquer the native cultures and rape their land. we convert them through force to christianity. depending on what country conquered your people decided what brand of christianity you got shoved down your throat. this isnt new, i mean this is what has been happening since we started. dominant cultures conquering weaker ones. stealing parts of their culture we like and destroying the rest. and no it want always done in the name of christianity. throughout human history many relgions have been involved in this crime  :eek: so you cant say it was gods plan or anything goofy, its just how humans have worked for awhile.

so here we are in modern times in a christian controlled country. with a government that only adopts the priciples of christianity it can use to obtain fun stuff like wealth, military outposts,resources...which is what government does..and of course religion is allied with government because it wants what religion wants, brains. government wants relgion to have brains, because if relgion has your brain you are easier to control. will the cycle ever be broken?? who knows??

of course my history is SUPER abbieviated and i leave out many parts of the world. other very similar things have happened in those parts with those religions. my point is stop believing in horse shit some asshole created just because people in charge tell u to believe it. or your parents believed it. no one knows a god damn thing. take life as it is and base your actions on reality and what u observe. dont worry about what happens when your dead, you'll find out soon enough :smirk:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4393719 - 07/11/05 09:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Say Amen! :heart: :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Icelander]
    #4393798 - 07/11/05 10:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:smile: hopefully people open eyes..i dont care which eye either, 1st, 2nd ,3rd


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4393811 - 07/11/05 10:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Do not hold thy breath brother. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4393914 - 07/11/05 11:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well said

:bow:


5
for
you


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: niteowl]
    #4393979 - 07/11/05 11:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

thanks man it took me a mintute to write and im glad someone took time to read it :smile: 5 for u


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4394451 - 07/12/05 02:13 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i couldn't be bothered to read all that but i can tell you that the goal behind all religions is simply to help people attain a higher level of concioussness. of course religions have been corrupted and mistranslated and hijacked for the purposes of control throughout history, but they often retain some elements of wisdom.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4394864 - 07/12/05 04:10 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I like your post

with a government that only adopts the priciples of christianity it can use to obtain fun stuff like wealth, military outposts,resources...which is what government does..and of course religion is allied with government because it wants what religion wants, brains. government wants relgion to have brains, because if relgion has your brain you are easier to control.

why is it that I have a harder time swallowing "religion wants" than "government wants"? To me it feels like the organization of government lends itself to personification more than that of religion. That's interesting though, I never thought of saying "religion wants".


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OfflineFospher
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Zekebomb]
    #4394988 - 07/12/05 05:57 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

christianity is bullshit



Quote:

depending on what country conquered your people decided what brand of christianity you got shoved down your throat




Pushing atheism is just pushing another belief. People are religious for spirituality and direction, not to pick at logic of the belief with your own.

Quote:

my point is stop believing in horse shit some asshole created just because people in charge tell u to believe it. or your parents believed it. no one knows a god damn thing. take life as it is and base your actions on reality and what u observe.




No one tells me to believe it, nor was I pressured by my parents, especially 'some asshole in charge'.
Why cant you learn from other's knowledge and experience, versus doing already what they did again just for your own observation?

Your 'think for yourself' argument lacks the aspect of social communication of learning from others.


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4395160 - 07/12/05 09:05 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KingOftheThing said:
i single out christianity only because it attepmts to impose its will and values on me the most.

first ill start with what religion is simply. its a belief system humans come up with to explain stuff. most relgion explains the big questions, why are we here, what happens when you die and how did we get here. of course it can be used to explain other things, like why it rains, why it snows, why earthquakes happen, etc... it is used to set rules for people, what you should drink, what you should eat, who you can fuck, what day you should pray on,which direction should you pray in etc...

you'll find out soon enough :smirk:





and aren't you doing the same? Imposing your ideas as the objective truth? You start by defining what religion is, how it came to existence..
What you are talking about is your opinion, because you are not that old to remember what was happening thousands of years ago when religions we being written. Yet, you use this opinion as some truth from where you start building your views.


and as for life after death. Those who believe in afterlife will never find out that there is none, because they will fall asleep thinking they will see it, but will never know that they didn't.

So those who believe will never be convinced otherwise, even in death, they will carry their beliefs into the eternity of oblivion.

Unless there really is afterlife, in which case, we will all gather, shake hands and have more dicsussions about it.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineGrav
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Fospher]
    #4395177 - 07/12/05 09:30 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


Your 'think for yourself' argument lacks the aspect of social communication of learning from others.




how so?
the concept of seeking spirituality out of what one can independently think of in the moment (as opposed to a regimented religious system) is socially integrated. they made movies about it.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4395179 - 07/12/05 09:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)


Quote:

KingOftheThing said:
i single out christianity only because it attepmts to impose its will and values on me the most.

first ill start with what religion is simply. its a belief system humans come up with to explain stuff. most relgion explains the big questions, why are we here, what happens when you die and how did we get here. of course it can be used to explain other things, like why it rains, why it snows, why earthquakes happen, etc... it is used to set rules for people, what you should drink, what you should eat, who you can fuck, what day you should pray on,which direction should you pray in etc...

you'll find out soon enough :smirk:





Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
and aren't you doing the same? Imposing your ideas as the objective truth?






i dont think kingofthething is going to burn anyone at the stake over his beliefs


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4395244 - 07/12/05 10:39 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Although i understand your position and i agree with most of your points, there's got to be a clear distinction inside Christianity about the several sects and sub-religions it composes. If you don't take Christianity as a whole ( Anglican, Catholic, Evangelical, Jehovah's Witnesses, Latter-day Saints, Orthodox, Pentecostal) you surely can't blame then all at the same time (Christianity) for what the catholic church has done since it has become an institution connected with the power of the state.

Even Islam, if not considered as a whole, probably isn't the biggest religion in the world, Hinduism is.

My point is, the tittle of this thread "why Christianity is bullshit" is bullshit by itself. It's not about Christianity, every institutionalized religion connected to power is bullshit, but not all Christianity is connected to power.

FYI http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Grav]
    #4395499 - 07/12/05 12:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:

Quote:

KingOftheThing said:
i single out christianity only because it attepmts to impose its will and values on me the most.

first ill start with what religion is simply. its a belief system humans come up with to explain stuff. most relgion explains the big questions, why are we here, what happens when you die and how did we get here. of course it can be used to explain other things, like why it rains, why it snows, why earthquakes happen, etc... it is used to set rules for people, what you should drink, what you should eat, who you can fuck, what day you should pray on,which direction should you pray in etc...

you'll find out soon enough :smirk:





Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
and aren't you doing the same? Imposing your ideas as the objective truth?






i dont think kingofthething is going to burn anyone at the stake over his beliefs




that's not on trial here. What is on trial is simply imposing beliefs


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4395515 - 07/12/05 01:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

More Christianity-bashing based on poor parenting. Great.
Dude, I hope you don't base your life and actions on misdirected, unresolved anger. God, Emperor Constantine, the Church of Enland, etc., etc., etc. are not your personal enemies. Just maybe you should learn more about the religion you got hammered with than the folks who did the hammering. That should fix them, and your anger too.


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4395566 - 07/12/05 01:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
More Christianity-bashing based on poor parenting. Great.
Dude, I hope you don't base your life and actions on misdirected, unresolved anger. God, Emperor Constantine, the Church of Enland, etc., etc., etc. are not your personal enemies. Just maybe you should learn more about the religion you got hammered with than the folks who did the hammering. That should fix them, and your anger too.




my parents never hammered any religion down my throat. yeah i was raised celebrating christian holidays, but we rarely went to church. so your assertion im from some strict home and trying to rebel is wrong  :wink: my problem with organized religion comes from all the problems it causes. all the wars, death , genocide. im no atheist, an agnostic is what i am. i also am not trying to force my beliefs on anyone. i just think i f you read history, things that can be proved, you'll seee christianity and many other organized religions can be exposed as lies and tall tales. i mean for you to believe the bible you have to have this "faiith: that god sends his son down in one part of the world only to affect those people. then you have many peopel in the "new world" and asia who god doesnt care about??? shit some of those new world tribes had their own gods and saviors, we didnt care, we slaughtered them and forced them to stop believing. why was our savior and god any better than theirs?? baaah you may not have an answer, seems christianity may have your brain. just know that the bible is a carefully crafted book of stories written no where chronologically close to when most of the shit took place. the stories are meant to scare people into altering their behavior and keep people in line. hope you enjoy being kept in line  :grin:


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4395588 - 07/12/05 01:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

also lets say i was making good points and some christian starting doubting their faith. so they goto their pastor and ask questions. the answer they would get "oh that guy is controlled by the devil". another reason that religion makes me sick, anything good is god's work and bad is the devil. such a simplistic way of looking at things. but of course the good and bad is subjective to how it affects christians. for instance lets say when those christians were down in south america commiting genocide in the jungle, 5,000 troops caught some crazy disease and died. well of course according to the christians that would be the work of the devil. then again to the natives being slaughtered it might be the work of god.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4395601 - 07/12/05 01:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You shouldn't just bash Christianity then...you should be down on all organized religions....they all have the same flaws. Just look at Islam and Judaism not to mention Hinduism. All of these religions are responsible for wars and genocide. Why are you so selective? For this reason I feel that Markos has a bit of a point.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4395611 - 07/12/05 01:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

IMO the problem is not within the belief systems, but within the practice.  Those who seek power over others will claim power wherever it may be found.

Financial power = Own/run a corporation
Sexual power = Rape/Manipulate/Abuse other people
Spiritual power = Become a religious leader (whether leading a group or a family).
Political power = Run for office

Does the fact that the power-hungry utilize these power sources mean that the sources are evil/flawed?

:heart:


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4395615 - 07/12/05 01:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:

and aren't you doing the same? Imposing your ideas as the objective truth? You start by defining what religion is, how it came to existence..



at some point we need to accept the work of historians whose whole lives it is to study these things as truth. most of the concepts im stating can be found in any high school history book. im not imposing on anyone, no torture, no genocide, no convert or be ran through.

Quote:

What you are talking about is your opinion, because you are not that old to remember what was happening thousands of years ago when religions we being written.




yes but there are thousands of historians whose life work it has been to research these things. like i said this is historical fact based on years of research and artifacts. nothing i have said is really any different than what would be in any world history book.

Quote:

Yet, you use this opinion as some truth from where you start building your views.




there needs to be a point where we start taking our lessons from historians and scientists. peopel who actually have evidence, study things, prove things. we cant just keep believing in ridiculous shit just because, well we werent there maybe it happened. fuck look at the mormons, they think some asshole found plates buried in the woods. they think christ really lived in america. now we fucking KNOW that shit didnt happen. look how many rubes by into it. im not saying force anyone....just put facts out there and hopefully people come around


Quote:

and as for life after death. Those who believe in afterlife will never find out that there is none, because they will fall asleep thinking they will see it, but will never know that they didn't.

So those who believe will never be convinced otherwise, even in death, they will carry their beliefs into the eternity of oblivion.

Unless there really is afterlife, in which case, we will all gather, shake hands and have more dicsussions about it.




my thing wasnt about the afterlife. no one knows what happens when you die, no one. so why slaughter, fight wars etc.. because your ideas differ from someone elses's??


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4395624 - 07/12/05 01:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
You shouldn't just bash Christianity then...you should be down on all organized religions....they all have the same flaws. Just look at Islam and Judaism not to mention Hinduism. All of these religions are responsible for wars and genocide. Why are you so selective? For this reason I feel that Markos has a bit of a point.




first line of what i wrote:

Quote:

ok well this simple little explanation will debunk all organized religion and not just the christians. i single out christianity only because it attepmts to impose its will and values on me the most.




believe me i feel the same way about ALL organized religions, ALL. i single out christianity because my government wants to impose the values of that relgion on me. i do not put any rleigion above christianity, or below it.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4395770 - 07/12/05 02:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

you also have new religions popping up that are borrowing stuff from other relgions. the jews appear and a spin off of the judaism, christianity eventually appears. then eventually you get a spinoff of christiany called islam, more prophets, more rules, more dogma and more fun.




Islam is not a spin off of christianity. Islam comes from when Ismael and Hagar were cast into the desert and left to fend off on their own. Their story was picked up from Mohammad who was a prophet of god.

Strictly speaking is where islam came from.


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #4395788 - 07/12/05 02:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

yes but islam borrows from christianity, mainly jesus...jesus is the most quoted prophet in the quran


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4395790 - 07/12/05 02:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)



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OfflineMAIA
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4395794 - 07/12/05 02:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

i single out christianity




... but you can't single out christianity. Why ?

Anglican, Catholic, Evangelical, Jehovah's Witnesses, Latter-day Saints, Orthodox, Pentecostal, and more

Although all this religions share the same basic principles, the way they act or behave is totally different and you can't put them all in the same bag when criticizing christianity.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MAIA]
    #4395805 - 07/12/05 02:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

meh, i dont have a problem generalizing. however i guess the sects that offend me most would be evangelicals, mormons....meh basically the ones who take a literal interpretation of the bible are the farthest gone. also the ones who feel some mission to convert people scare me. catholics were horrible in the past, but arent soo bad anymore...i mean the last pope did tell them to accept science in some respects. i guess im most afraid of the evangelical movement putting us in another dark age by restricting science.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4395806 - 07/12/05 02:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

First make a personal study of the history that you are attempting to talk about. Much of what you're going on about comes from Fundamentalist simpletons; backward people who know absolutely nothing about the traditions, culture or people who wrote the biblical stories. Because they know nothing about 2000+ year old mentality, they tell it according to their own very limited understanding - mostly literal.

The Hebrews who wrote the books recognize four levels of interpretation: literal, allegorical, symbolic and secret. Uneducated preacher types who still think that Jews have horns (because of the statue of Michaelangelo's statue of Moses [because he misinterpreted 'horns' or 'rays' of light for solid horns]) are examples of superstitious morons who still inhabit this planet, and teach others according to their retarded degree of understanding. Naturally intelligent folk are gonna reject those things.

The fact that war-mongers, bigots, sadists, control-freaks and other evil people have used Christian symbols and distorted teachings to justify their power-motives should come as no surprise to anyone, but this is just a misappropriation of Holy Knowledge, twisted and distorted, to serve selfish aims.

The Tao in Chinese Taoism means 'Way.' For those with an enlightened understanding of Jesus' words when He said "I am the Way...," it is the SAME Way. He was not referring to His Jewish-carpenter-bearded-long-haired embodied self. He was referring to His BEING, His Eternal Being. There are non-Christians who understand such things about Jesus, when so-called Christians do NOT. You have to learn that it the individual and the individual tradition that serves as the carrier of Universal Truth. Such Truth is manifested through the language of myth and religous epic stories (midrash). When people dismiss religion because they have not been properly taught, they throw the baby out with the bathwater.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4395836 - 07/12/05 02:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

^exactly right. here is a website dedicated to explaining the universal spiritual path behind christianity and all religions and explaining the teachings of jesus in a way modern people can understand. http://askrealjesus.com/


Edited by Deviate (07/12/05 02:54 PM)


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4395839 - 07/12/05 02:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

When people dismiss religion because they have not been properly taught, they throw the baby out with the bathwater.

All religions have the same basic core principles.

Believing that your religion is the T-R-U-T-H and shoving your "truth" down other peoples throat, is what kingofthething was referring to.

Radical, uber-religious people, pushing their religious views on other religions......is how wars are started.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: niteowl]
    #4395877 - 07/12/05 03:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, I got that, but there is more than that one objection. He believes that religions are merely made up, for an explanatory function of Mystery rather than a system which holds an original founder's experience of GOD at its core.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineSycronica
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MAIA]
    #4395881 - 07/12/05 03:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

One fun fact about christianity that most bible thumpers don't know, or don't care was what went down during the "buring times". There was so many terrible acts brought down upon the masses during the dark ages that hitler pales in comparision.

I don't remember reading where hitler pulled peoples fingernails off, used screw clamps on every finger and toe, poked people with red hot pieces of sharp metal trying to find a spot that you didn't feel pain. (though hitler did equally terrible things, he did not do so to nearly as many people or for nearly as long of a time) These people who endured this torture where nothing more than victims of one huge fucking lie. Why do you think witches are portrayed as ugly in modern times? Because by the time all the torture was done they had hideous wounds all over them, including their face. So they really did look hideous by the time they were dragged out to the town square to be burnt alive on the stake.

Yet modern day christians look back on those times and say things like, "Well times were different back then". Like that excuses it or something. Well if it was wrong back then when they tortured and killed people, what else was they wrong about when they re-translated the bible into the king james version? But more importantly, if the christians today still believe the same things about god/devil/heaven then what is to stop another cycle of torturing and killing non-believers? Sure our govt has laws to prevent such things but will those laws ALWAYS be in place? Which will last longer, our govt (200+ yrs) or religion (2000+ yrs)?

I like to think that the modern day people would never let such things come to pass. Yet certain policially sponcered violence tends to make me think it is very possible of another burning times. Will the next burning times be confused as a war? Could they use govt forces to extract their hatred of those non christian? Are they doing it already? Hard to say with 100% certainty.

The most ironic thing of it all, is that their very own savior said things like, "turn the other cheek" and was 100% non violent. Yet almost every christian in america supports wars. If they really wanted to live like jesus they wouldn't support violent conflict resolution. So they don't even follow their own damn teachings yet they expect non christians to convert and follow them? No thanks.


--------------------
Think for yourself. Question authority.

Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.

You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4395896 - 07/12/05 03:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

well who are you to say jesus wasnt just some jewish cult leader??? i mean sure maybe he had some good stuff to say but that doesnt make him the son of god. shit there are lots of people who i could say are the son of god. i mean maybe jim morrison was, or terrence mckenna, tim leary?? who are you to say they werent god's sons?? prophets?? all im trying to say is i could tell people i was god's son too.


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4395907 - 07/12/05 03:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

also what about before humans then?? i mean god and dinosaurs??? what was he up to then?? did he have a tyranosaurus rex as a prophet?


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4395910 - 07/12/05 03:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I thought that was a pretty good read, KoTT.

All religion was, and still is, is an outdated explanation of the world around us. I am very surprised that in this day and age our species has not evolved past this childish bullshit that causes so much division, hate, and needless death. Unfortunately I will not be around in however many years it takes for the world to drop these fairy tales and come together to better ourselves as human beings.


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Sycronica]
    #4395915 - 07/12/05 03:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You see, there is no "they" or "them," there is only you and me and he and she. It is all very individual and you are describing a collective madness or movement. Crusades, inquisitions, pograms, persecutions, witch-hunts and wars are not conducted by Christians. Christians are human beings who are 'in Christ,' and if one is 'in Christ, and He in you,' then your individual motives are governed by Compassion, by Truth. Anyone can 'call' themselves a Christian, carry crosses or wear crosses into battle (like the crusading Knights Templar), but that doesn't mean any of those people are really Christians any more than a wolf in sheepskin is a sheep.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4395920 - 07/12/05 03:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

-coyote in-
To say something is bullshit, only because people misuse(d) it, is a too poor argument.
Atomic fusion isn't bullshit, only because people build bombs out of it.
-coyote out-


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4395948 - 07/12/05 03:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
-coyote in-
To say something is bullshit, only because people misuse(d) it, is a too poor argument.
Atomic fusion isn't bullshit, only because people build bombs out of it.
-coyote out-




im also saying that is BS because of why it was created and how it came about. we proved to japan atomic fusion is real. not one person can prove that jesus was the son of god :wink:


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4395968 - 07/12/05 03:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

He believes that religions are merely made up..


Um...They ARE made up.

If you trace the history of the Christian religion (like KoTT did) you will see that the religion you believe in today was made up of many different mythological stories and fables.

Not the literal truth.....just a made up myth.


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4395985 - 07/12/05 03:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"ALL. i single out christianity because my government wants to impose the values of that relgion on me."
That is funny. I know several fundamentalist Christians who are convinced that the governement is trying to suppress Christianity and even make it illegal due to Satanic influences within our government.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4396033 - 07/12/05 04:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The radical Muslims believe the same thing......go figure.


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4396085 - 07/12/05 04:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Religion is institutionalized. That's my main premise against religion. Paganism and monotheism are very inept in principle. Since enlightenment is meant to be given after death many peoples don't attempt to find themselves within their life spand. And as we know by the rules handed down in these major religions, the purpose is not to improve your life but to teach you how to live your life. When we look back, we see that most of these texts were written in times of great peril and ignorance. They speak of death, plague, hell, and then heaven. It teaches people to fear. Reminds me of a totalitarian state.


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4396168 - 07/12/05 04:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KingOftheThing said:
Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
-coyote in-
To say something is bullshit, only because people misuse(d) it, is a too poor argument.
Atomic fusion isn't bullshit, only because people build bombs out of it.
-coyote out-




im also saying that is BS because of why it was created and how it came about. we proved to japan atomic fusion is real. not one person can prove that jesus was the son of god :wink:



Yes, the only proof is the word of the prophets and the vision of each ones 'spiritual heart' of living existance.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineDoom
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4396276 - 07/12/05 04:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

***my point is stop believing in horse shit some asshole created just because people in charge tell u to believe it.***


ok, your analytical skills are almost on par with a marxist layman, keep trying.


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OfflineSycronica
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4396305 - 07/12/05 05:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

You see, there is no "they" or "them," there is only you and me and he and she. It is all very individual and you are describing a collective madness or movement. Crusades, inquisitions, pograms, persecutions, witch-hunts and wars are not conducted by Christians. Christians are human beings who are 'in Christ,' and if one is 'in Christ, and He in you,' then your individual motives are governed by Compassion, by Truth. Anyone can 'call' themselves a Christian, carry crosses or wear crosses into battle (like the crusading Knights Templar), but that doesn't mean any of those people are really Christians any more than a wolf in sheepskin is a sheep.




Yet if I listen to some "satanic" music and then go shoot up my workplace/school the music is blamed by christans. But when someone picks up a cross and goes kills someone I have to place the blame elsewhere?


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You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4396320 - 07/12/05 05:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I'd say the only real problem with christianity is that most Christians veiw Jesus as a savior instead of a role model...

Thus, instead of trying to emulate Jesus's kindness and compassion, most Christians take their faith in him as a 'get out of Hell free card'... "Oh well, I'm a terrible sinner but that's OK because I'm saved... now lets go bomb the hell out of some Iraqis so we can have cheap gasoline... Jesus will forgive us; that is his job, after all..."

as Ghandi once said:

"I like your Christ, but I dislike your Christians... Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."


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Get yourself cleaned out.'


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: DoctorJ]
    #4396332 - 07/12/05 05:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: DoctorJ]
    #4396333 - 07/12/05 05:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Exactly! Could'nt have put it better myself!!!! :thumbup:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Sycronica]
    #4396502 - 07/12/05 06:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I have no idea what in blazes you are talking about.


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InvisibleFurrySheep
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4396528 - 07/12/05 06:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I realize that religion while it often times hurts people, is really about love and happiness.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4396573 - 07/12/05 06:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Another example of someone who hasn't bothered to ask a simple question like "What does it mean when Jesus is called 'Son of God' in the Bible?" All the Kings of Israel were referred to as 'sons of God' in the Old Testament. It is not a title unique to Jesus. Only people who haven't bothered to read the books that Jesus read would come up with that question. Son of God refers to the 'divine right of kings' - the idea that monarchs were God's choice - an idea that existed at the times of the Egyptian pharoahs, in European monarchs, and elsewhere in the world - including among the Hebrews.

Apocalyptic writers like Daniel had another meaning for 'sons of God' - a closer meaning to the one that theologians eventually attached to Jesus, turning 'a man annointed by God' into 'God clothed in flesh' (a Greek idea of a 'Hero' and not the former Hebrew idea of a Messiah).

So, instead of protesting against everything - why don't you find out what was meant by these words first? BTW, 'The Way' WAS a Jewish 'cultus' within mainstream Judaism. It was called 'The Way' for close to 200 years before the followers were called 'Christians.' As to following Jim Morrison or Terrance McKenna - you are free to follow anyone you want in this free country so knock yourself out! I made my choice long ago as to whose Teachings to base my inner life on.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: DoctorJ]
    #4396918 - 07/12/05 07:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I am not a Christian, but I think you missed the whole point of Jesus and the "get out of Hell free card" of asking forgiveness. Jesus was a messiah. A messiah frees a people. Jesus sacrificed himself, in this mythology, that other Christians might be free from the original sin...you know the whole Garden of Eden scandal. For the low down on forgiveness read the parable of the prodigal son.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4396948 - 07/12/05 07:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Even if one is not a religious person they should have the grace to allow others their religion. You don't have to agree with it to respect other people's rights and opinions. If you oppose a point of religion do it for practical reasons...not emotional ones like your upbringing and how much the Bible was shoved up your ass. Be careful your intolerance does not lapse into hate....which is what this thread seems to be bordering on.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4396969 - 07/12/05 07:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

word


--------------------
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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4397091 - 07/12/05 08:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KingOftheThing said:
historians





1.
I don't recal any historians debunking contents of the Bible. Most of the events from Bible have been confirmed by modern archeology and history, like the whole situation with romans, jews, babilon, even the place where red sea was crossed has been more or less found (a theory set at least). A place where watter is shalow and in some special tide seasons you can cross it on foot. etc. etc. That is just an example.

2.

Conforming with the majority is a trap many fall in. Just because something is in textbooks doesn't mean it is true. I'm sure that in dark ages kids were taught in school that sun revolves around earth, and that witches exist and should be burned.
If you were in those days, following the public textbooks would lead you into oposite beliefs of these that you have now.
So much for "common sense"

3.

many people bark at religion using scientific knowledge. Yet, whenever I ask, I have never been given a solid example of a point in which 100% proven scientific theories debunk religious dogmas.
In most places these two don't even meet. They are occupied with different areas of existence.
In order for something to dispute the other thing, both things must talk about the same subject, don't they?
Religion talks about life after death. Science talks about life before death. When science tries to talk about afterlife, then it is called "pesudoscience" by some.


Of course, it is more convenient for man if non of religious dogmas were true, that is why majority of people of earth are eager to
accept the anti-dogma of it.
Not because they think with their heads, but because they feel opressed, they want to be free, they want to fly away unrestrained.

What I find interesting is how even these two preach freedom of dogmas, will restrain you with some other standards of their own, which are not much different from religious dogmas.

For example, even an atheist will look at you in judgement if you comit murder or steal, even though he has nothing to judge you against..

hmm


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4397220 - 07/12/05 08:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"I don't recal any historians debunking contents of the Bible. Most of the events from Bible have been confirmed by modern archeology and history"

You should know better. This is a falsehood. The great flood has no basis in known fact. Neither does the Garden of Eden, or the story of Jesus for that matter. It is all myth and conjecture.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4397271 - 07/12/05 09:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

actually i thought there was evidence of a great flood


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: niteowl]
    #4397671 - 07/12/05 11:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

If you knew what a myth was, you'd understand that they are not "made up." Myths are archetypal contents of the collective unconscious which derive from the psychic infrastructure of all human psyches. Myths may differ superficially, but the essential themes are universal and invariant. Just as all humans are only superficially different in own physiology, we are only superficially different at significant psychological levels - beneath cultural variants.

BTW, there is no "Christian religion" in the singular even at this moment, let alone since its inception. Orthodox Christianity vs. Catholic vs. Byzantine Catholic vs. Coptic vs. the myriads of Protestant denominations do not make for one religion but many - all under the umbrella of Christendom. Some draw on mythological themes more than others - mostly of Hellenistic origin. Judaism does not have a developed mythology. Their contribution is from spiritual and cultural vectors. All of these vectors have served in some capacity to be vehicles of Truth, and all of these have in some capacity acted contrary to those Truths.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4397683 - 07/12/05 11:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Great definition for myth. Are you familiar with Joseph Campbell? I have a feeling you are.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4397690 - 07/12/05 11:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Your feeling would be correct. I should add that beginning with my academic advisor in grad school who had just returned from the C.G. Jung Center in Zurich, I had about 8 years of Jungian analysis with 3 different Zurich-trained analysts.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4397737 - 07/12/05 11:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Myth:
  1. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.
  2. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.


The stories (embellishments) about Jesus were the same mythical stuff of the Greek and Roman, Heroes. Virgin birth, preforming miracles.....all these "divine" trademarks, were also present in Greek and roman Mythology.


Do some research, on the history of your precious bible and you will see how it has been shaped and reshaped into it's present form.

Can good come from religion?
On a personal level...yes

On a global level.....no


Virtually all wars were started over religious differences.

Mainly what we call "God".

Christian.....Jesus is God
Muslim.....Allah is God
Buddhist....Buddha is God


We are all worshiping the same God....we're just fighting over what to call him......


kinda stupid if you ask me :shrug:


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4397743 - 07/12/05 11:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I spent about five years fully digesting Mr. Campbell's books. I reread several of them and sometimes did not understand them fully until months after I read them. My favorite was "The Hero With A Thousand Faces". The ideas it contained absolutely changed my life. The notion of the hero of myth as a blueprint to living...the constant cycle of death, rebirth, and reinvention as a path of adaptation to change and adversity was a notion that struck a powerful chord in my life. The implications of this allowed me to make many changes in my life. My initial attraction to shamanism was the parallel between the shamanic crisis and the hero's journey.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: niteowl]
    #4397746 - 07/12/05 11:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"Buddhist....Buddha is God"
No...it is I am Buddha.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4397783 - 07/12/05 11:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, my 2nd analyst specifically recommended 'Hero' for me. I am certainly not a mythologist, and I do not own all of Campbell's volumes on Occidental and Oriental mythology but The Power of Myth was also very transforming, even entering the domain of best seller. The archetypes, even as mandalic archetypal images were the first psychedelic phenomenon to evoke life-changing degrees of awe and wonder in me. I have never quite come down, and I sometimes forget that there are two kinds of people - those who have had The Experience and those who have not. This dichotomy goes back to an early Ken Kesey and he was right. If I wasn't an oddball in the first place - this is like being from another world.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4397799 - 07/12/05 11:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"Climbing up on Solsbury Hill
I could see the city light
Wind was blowing, time stood still
Eagle flew out of the night

He was something to observe
Came in close, I heard a voice
Standing stretching every nerve
I had to listen had no choice

I did not believe the information
Just had to trust imagination
My heart was going boom boom, boom
Son, he said, grab your things, I?ve come to take you home.

To keeping silence I resigned
My friends would think I was a nut
Turning water into wine
Open doors would soon be shut

So I went from day to day
Though my life was in a rut
Until I thought of what I?d say
Which connection I should cut

I was feeling part of the scenery
I walked right out of the machinery
My heart was going boom boom boom
Hey, he said, grab your things, I?ve come to take you home."
-Peter Gabriel


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4397840 - 07/13/05 12:02 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well said!!


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4397898 - 07/13/05 12:23 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

well, this was a good thread to watch. It went from people grouping together to bash religion, and then, as they realized they had no actual argument, it went into more specific and warm discussion.


my stance is simply that organized religion is not my deal- i prefer an intuitive approach to spirituality. But thats just me. I was raised Roman Catholic, dragged to church every sunday and holiday, sent off to catechism education + some, and yet I'm still fine.


lets see..
funmatic,
Quote:

Even though we all might scientifically observe that god doesn't exist



What do you mean? I was unaware of any scientific observations on there being no God.


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Invisiblefinding_self
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h [Re: vampirism]
    #4398015 - 07/13/05 12:55 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

h


Edited by finding_self (04/18/06 09:43 PM)


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: finding_self]
    #4398555 - 07/13/05 03:26 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

human society itself disproves the existence of god.

fuck this world makes me so sick sometimes


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: DoctorJ]
    #4398656 - 07/13/05 04:15 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

KoTT composed his piece out of the assumption that there is nothing divine for a sentient being to pursue, and so therefore religion has no other aim but to explain what's not understood, and, by way of it's relevence to universality, to control populations and confine them to a simplistic way of thinking and perceiving. From this viewpoint everything he says is quite consistent and quite correct, and that's something I can respect.

However, a great number of alternate viewpoints have been revealed in this thread. For example, MarkosTheGnostic sees the divine as something tangible and worth embracing, yet inexpressable except in forms of myth and archetype. From this viewpoint, KoTT's ideas are problematic and suffer from an overall lack of knowledge.

But it does not matter how much knowlege KoTT has, or how much energy he may devote in the future to familiarizing himself with religious and social history, because his aim at the whole issue assumes nothing greater than the material world to actually exist. He may be quite learned on the subject, but if he still believes that religions were drummed up as fairy tails to ease our discomfort with the unknown, then that will be how he processes and discusses the information.

KoTT, I'd encourage you not to be too static in dismissing religion and religious people as ignorant or unevolved. You might be depriving yourself of very many beautiful things. It's a terrible shame that so many people use such beautiful schools of thought for their own selfish, hateful, and destructive aims, or to derrive a sense of cultural and political identity. Yet, this isn't reason enough to refrain from exploring religion and religious ideas with an open mind and an open heart. You might find something quite profound.

Religions are not simply created by political figures or charismatic revolutionaries. If that were so there would be great many more religious schools of thought competing for supremacy today, and a great many would rise and fall with each passing decade. The religions which persist today are not so simply because they are institutionalized -- they are institutionalized because they were, at some point, widely regarded as actual methods to achieving something truly sublime. Given that so many different religions appeared in different places during different eras in the world's civilized history, there might be something to that. That is, if you give people a little bit of credit.


--------------------


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4398865 - 07/13/05 06:59 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"I don't recal any historians debunking contents of the Bible. Most of the events from Bible have been confirmed by modern archeology and history"

You should know better. This is a falsehood. The great flood has no basis in known fact. Neither does the Garden of Eden, or the story of Jesus for that matter. It is all myth and conjecture.




1.yes there was a huge flood in the regions of mezopotamia

2.How can there be any record of garden of eden or anything like that if first man did not develop writing?

3. Romans did mention Jewish false messiahs, they did not name them though, Jesus was one of them, why would he be remembered by romans or named in their texts if they didn't believe in Jewish messiahs?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: niteowl]
    #4398866 - 07/13/05 07:00 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Myth:
  1. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.
  2. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.


The stories (embellishments) about Jesus were the same mythical stuff of the Greek and Roman, Heroes. Virgin birth, preforming miracles.....all these "divine" trademarks, were also present in Greek and roman Mythology.


Do some research, on the history of your precious bible and you will see how it has been shaped and reshaped into it's present form.

Can good come from religion?
On a personal level...yes

On a global level.....no


Virtually all wars were started over religious differences.

Mainly what we call "God".

Christian.....Jesus is God
Muslim.....Allah is God
Buddhist....Buddha is God


We are all worshiping the same God....we're just fighting over what to call him......


kinda stupid if you ask me :shrug:




perhapse there is some truth in Greek mythology too?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: finding_self]
    #4398902 - 07/13/05 08:03 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

FunMatic said:
errr speed typin. I apoligize. Science will ultimately prove or fictionalize The G O D. Or just make it more complex. Your view.




or make it more simple than we thought


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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grumpy response here: [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4398959 - 07/13/05 08:55 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"bullshit"
well...
yr POV okeydokey, mate...


so somebody comes up to late, great, scifi writer theodore sturgeon back in the 50s & sez to him "well, 85% of this science fiction stuff is crap!" & sturgeon replied "OK, but 85% of _everything_ is crap."


this observation has henceforth been known as "sturgeon's law"


~

so, applying my own math here, 100% - 85% = 15%...
therefore 15% of _everything_ is NOT crap...

go for the gold, grasshopper...

there's pearls in the mire...
there's diamonds in the rough...
there's a lotus bloom in foetid water...
& that should be enough...





ymmv...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: niteowl]
    #4398972 - 07/13/05 09:14 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think I'm fairly well acquainted with the Bible and its formation. YOU, however, would benefit from reading John Shelby Spong's Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes. I can always learn more, but the definition om myth that you supplied is shallow and tells me nothing that I don't already know.

"your precious bible" - these sarcastic words are more revealing about issues that you have, then anything about what I may learn about the Bible

"Buddha is God" - this eqation is wrong. If anything, it should be 'Dharma is God' (from the Three Jewels: Buddha-Dharma-Sangha)


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4399018 - 07/13/05 09:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The problem with religion is not the religion. The problem with religion is that people believe it. I am going to copy something rather long because it's a fun read. It should probably be in its own thread, but I choose to contribute it here instead. It's one of my favorite things ever written:

THE MEANING OF SELF-LIBERATION
AND THE LOOPY LOOPS FROM
THE SOURCE OF DANGER IS FEAR
By
El?as Capriles
University of The Andes
Department of Philosophy and Chair of Eastern Studies
M?rida, Venezuela
Article Originally Published in the
International Journal of Transpersonal Studies, vol 20, 2001 (pp. 53-66)
? International Journal of Transpersonal Studies
Reprinted with permission from the copyright owners
who are duly thanked hereby



Self-liberation does not mean that a self liberates himself or herself from delusorily valued thoughts or delusory experiences; what it means is that delusorily valued thoughts and delusory experiences liberate themselves spontaneously (which may take place in three main ways). The paradoxical, inverted dynamics of samsara manifest as countless ?laces? in which we tie ourselves up; understanding the functionality of these ?laces? is one of the preconditions for them to self-liberate?the others being direct introduction and knowledge of the ?treasure of instructions?. Examples of such laces are described herein, though the Upadesha (instructions) that may lead to their self-liberation may not be given openly in a freely circulated publication.

I. The Base, Path and Fruit in the Dzogchen Teachings
and the True Meaning of Self-liberation

The Dzogchen teachings of Tibetan Buddhism speak of Dzogchen as Base (Tibetan: zhi [gzhi]), Dzogchen as Path (Tibetan: lam [lam]) and Dzogchen as Fruit (Tibetan: drebu [?bras-bu]).

Dzogchen as Base is our original condition of total (chenpo [chen-po]) plenitude and perfection (dzogpa [rdzogs-pa]) ?which, in samsara just as well as in nirvana, is the true condition of both the subject and the object, of both mind and matter, and in general of all entities.

In any given individual, this original condition may manifest three different ways of functioning: (1) samsara, wherein a deluded consciousness fails to apprehend the said condition as it is, and only perceives its own dualistic, substantialist fictions; (2) nirvana, wherein the condition in question is apprehended as it is and thus the individual?s experience is characterized by total plenitude, whereas his or her actions are marked by total perfection; and (3) a condition called ?base of all? or kunzhi (kun-gzhi), wherein neither samsara nor nirvana are manifest?so that there is neither the perfect freedom inherent to undeluded primordial cognitiveness nor the incompleteness and self-encumbering inherent in delusion.

It is when samsara has manifested that we need Dzogchen as Path, which consists of the repeated self-liberation of delusion in the unveiling of Dzogchen as Base, and which, if practiced thoroughly and uninterruptedly until its final consequences, will result in the manifestation of Dzogchen as Fruit (which ultimately will imply the manifestation of one of the typically Dzogchen types of consummation of the physical organism). In short, Dzogchen as Path and Dzogchen as Fruit are but the direct unveiling of Dzogchen as Base ?the difference between them being that the first is transient, whereas the latter is definitive.

Now we can explain why is it misleading to speak of ?self-liberation from delusorily valued thought,? ?self-liberation from delusory experiences,? and so forth. It so happens that ?self-liberation? means that, rather than being liberated by an intentional action carried out by the mental subject, delusorily valued thoughts and delusory experiences liberate spontaneously, of their own accord. Moreover, when self-liberation occurs, the illusion that there is a separate mental subject perceiving an object, or acting upon it, and so on, dissolves like a feather entering fire: the self-liberation of delusorily valued thoughts, delusory experiences and so on, involves the instant disappearance of the illusory mental subject. Any attempt by the illusory mental subject to liberate a delusorily valued thought, a delusory experience and so on, would confirm and sustain the illusion that there is a mental subject separate from the flow of experience and from the myriad potential objects, which is a most essential aspect of the essential delusion at the root of samsara?and thus would bar self-liberation and sustain samsara. Thus the phrase ?self-liberation from thoughts? is misleading insofar as it seems to imply that there is an inherently existing self, soul or mental subject that, as a result from its own intentional action, is liberated from delusory thoughts, experiences, and so forth: it is likely to give rise to the attempt by the illusory mental subject to liberate a delusorily valued thought, a delusory experience and so on?which, as noted above, would bar self-liberation.

The above explanation has to be made more precise, as there is not a single kind of self-liberation, but a whole range of it that is divided into three main types, corresponding to three principal capacities. Whereas the first type/capacity of self-liberation depends on a previous intentional movement of attention that intends to apprehend the true essence of a thought that is already established as an object, the second type/capacity of self-liberation depends on an instant automatic reaction as the delusorily valued thought begins to arise. Finally, the third type/capacity of self-liberation does not involve either an intentional movement of attention toward a thought that is already established as object, or a spontaneous reaction as the delusorily valued thought begins to arise: as the thought arises, it self-liberates, like a drawing on water. In this last type of self-liberation thought is not delusorily valued even for an instant; therefore, it never veils the ?essence? or ngowo (ngo-bo) aspect of the Base, which is voidness (shunyata, tongpanyi [stong-pa-nyid], wu, mu).

Though the first type of self-liberation is preceded by an intentional movement of attention towards the thought that is already established as object, and the second type is preceded by an instant automatic reaction of attention as the delusorily valued thought begins to arise, in neither of them is self-liberation produced by the illusory subject?s intentional acts or spontaneous reactions. Self-liberation being spontaneous liberation, its occurrence shows most clearly that the subject cannot cause it, and that the obstinate attempt to do so does but increase the force and intensity of delusion. However, even this attempt will not prevent self-liberation, as the increase of the force and intensity of delusion may lead it to a threshold level at which, its reductio ad absurdum having been achieved, its spontaneous liberation becomes possible. In turn, this runaway of delusion to a threshold level and subsequent self-liberation will demonstrate even more clearly that the subject?s intentional actions or automatic reactions may not cause liberation.

The following lines may illustrate the first type/capacity of self-liberation:

As I look into the thought in order to apprehend its essence
suddenly there is no one to look and nothing to be seen,
as subject and object instantly, spontaneously dissolve
independently of their will, like feathers entering fire:
Thought disappears on the spot and there only remains
the patency of inherently self-liberating primordial cognitiveness.

In turn, the second type/capacity of self-liberation may be poetically described in terms of the following lines:

Like snakes
tensions appear and dance in my breast;
like snakes
they uncoil and free themselves on the spot
in the radiant, limitless, unborn
and empty expanse.

To conclude, the third type/capacity of self-liberation may be poetically expressed as follows:

Silence roars and darkness shines
in the sparkling fullness of the void?
and if a thought arises
it is void
and therefore does not veil
the roar of silence
in the fullness of the void.

Since there is no longer an apparent distance between a subject and an object, (we) cannot follow patterns ?down the river? as subjects who look toward an object, but simply ?remain in the source? beyond the subject-object duality. Like endlessly moving ripples in a spring, thoughts leave no traces and there is no mind to seek them: the ?mirror? of primordial cognitiveness reflects whatever appears at any moment, but no imprint is ever left on its surface, as there is no observer to look into the mirror. Thus, there is no longer any ?meditation,? but authentic, true self-lib?eration.

II. The Source of Danger is Fear

The Source of Danger is Fear is a manuscript consisting of successive sections, the materials of which came to me while I was in retreat in the higher Himalayas practicing Dzogchen between 1977 and December 1982. Each section of the original manuscript has two parts: the first de?scribes a ?lace? in which we frequently tie ourselves up, and the sec?ond provides instructions for the practice of the Dzogchen Upadesha which may create the conditions for the ?lace? described in the first part to undo itself spontaneously. The condition for this to possibly occur is that we have already been introduced to the state of absolute, nondual, undeluded Awareness that the Dzogchen teachings call rigpa (though even in this case the lace cannot be untied by means of a contrived action). It so happens that this text was written in the tradition of the Upadesha series of the Dzogchen teachings, which provides instructions allowing us to remain in the state of absolute, nondual, undeluded Awareness to which we have al?ready been introduced.

It must be noted that some of the ?laces? described are auto-cat?alytic systems?that is, systems involving positive feedback loops that cause them to grow exponentially from their own feedback. Only the effective work of re?pression?in case we prefer to use Freud?s explanation ?or bad faith?in case we prefer to use Sartre?s ?which depends on a low bioenergetic input and the concomitant state of small space/time/knowledge, can curb the system?s tendency to increase its intensity toward a threshold level at which, having achieved its reductio ad ab?surdum, the system becomes liable to self-liberation. The under?standing of the functional structure of the ?lace? described in the first part of any given section and the increase of the bioenergetic input and the consequent enlargement of the individual?s space/time/knowledge may activate the process of reductio ad absurdum, just as the intro?duction to the state of rigpa and the knowledge of the methods outlined in the second part of each section may create the conditions for the system?s self-liberation?or, in other words, for the ?lace? to undo it?self spontaneously.

In this paper I shall not reproduce the second part of each section, but only the first one, that is the one describing the ?lace? in which we tie ourselves up. The reason for this is that the instructions contained in the second part are not to be publicly/indiscriminately broadcast, but only transmitted individually to authorized, capable practitioners, by an authorized, capable Master (which I certainly I am not).

Time

A1 We miss the now and its inherent bliss
and experience uneasiness and discomfort
as we run after thoughts which project a ?better? future,
evoke a ?better? past or imagine a ?better? present,
and thereby indulge in longing or nostalgia.

A2 The now is supreme bliss, which we miss,
as we concentrate on thoughts about the future or the past
or on countless miscellaneous thoughts
because we miss the now?s supreme bliss
as we concentrate on thoughts about the future or the past
or on countless miscellaneous thoughts
because the now?s supreme bliss eludes us
as we concentrate on thoughts...
da capo sine fine...

Pleasure and pain

A1 We fail to obtain lasting pleasure
and constantly reap pain
as a result of our obstinate attempt
to attain lasting pleasure and avoid all pain.

A2 We wish to obtain lasting pleasure
and elude the pain produced
by our attempt to obtain lasting pleasure
and to elude the pain produced
by our attempt to obtain lasting pleasure
and to elude the pain produced...
da capo sine fine...

Boredom

A When we are in repose
and experience no novelty or change
we project on our experience the concept of ?boredom?
and, as a result from the subtle rejection of our experience
produced by the overvalued projection of a ?negative? concept,
we experience the uneasiness and discomfort called ?boredom.?
However, in order to forbear our daily toil and hardships
we need the incentive of aspiring to repose
and therefore we tell ourselves that we cannot enjoy repose at present
because in order to do so first we must resolve some problems,
and thus we engage in struggle
in order to win the repose
that we imagine will provide us with pleasure and satisfaction.
However, when we ?win? our repose
and experience no novelty or change
again we project on our experience the concept of ?boredom?
and thus experience uneasiness and discomfort,
and so again we tell ourselves that we cannot enjoy the repose
because first we must resolve some problems,
and therefore again we engage in struggle
in order to win the repose
that we imagine will provide us with pleasure and satisfaction..
da capo sine fine...

Desire

A By hungrily looking toward a supposed future pleasure
to be obtained from a supposedly substantial object
we miss the total bliss of nowness.
Then, when the desired future arrives
we are so possessed by the attitude
of looking toward the future and away from the present
that we cannot at all enjoy the experience we had yearned for.
Then we elude awareness of our frustration
and of the emptiness we have discovered,
by imagining that pleasure will be found in the future
when we obtain another object.
Thus, the great bliss and plenitude of nowness
continues to be hidden as we look and rush toward the future
and experience the dissatisfaction and frustration
of being away from the now.

Fear, insecurity, suffering and Refuge

A1 We are constantly searching for security because we are fearful.
We are fearful because we search for security
instead of giving ourselves up to the insecurity that life is:
if we gave ourselves up to insecurity we would feel secure,
for we would have no fear of insecurity.
Escaping insecurity, instead, implies and begets fear:
the more we escape, the more we affirm that there is something to fear;
the more we affirm there is something to fear, the more we fear.
Thus, we search for security because we fear
and we fear because we search for security.

A2 We fear the terrible sensation that fear is
but the fear of the sensation of fear
begets the sensation of fear that we fear.

A3 We try to elude our fear by taking refuge in objects:
friends, lovers, groups, beliefs, identities, positions.
Since these objects are breakable and unstable
by taking refuge in them we condemn ourselves to the fear of losing our refuge:
we take refuge because we fear losing the refuge that we take
because we fear losing the refuge that we take because we fear...
da capo sine fine...

A4 We fear that others discover our fear
but our fear that our fear may be discovered
is fear that may be discovered by others:
we fear that they may discover the fear that they may discover
the fear that they may discover the fear that...
da capo sine fine...

Tension

A1 The delusory valuation of thought at the root of the belief in a self
is sustained by neuromuscular tensions,
vibrations, contractions and reverberations which,
insofar as attention is occupied with thoughts/objects
other than the tensions, vibrations, contractions and reverberations,
are not felt to be unpleasant and thus may be conserved.
In turn, insofar as they are conserved,
we are compelled to evade them
and, thus, to conserve them.

A2 There can only be tension when there is rejection
and, whenever there is tension, consciousness rejects it.
However, insofar as tension is not the central object of attention
rejection of it is subtle and, therefore, tension is slight.
Then, as we become aware of tension, our rejection increases
proportionally to our awareness of it,
making tension increase and become more unpleasant.
The more unpleasant tension becomes, the more we reject it,
making it ever more unpleasant. This autocatalytic system
may bring the unpleasantness to a threshold level
at which the subject-object duality/delusion at its root may collapse
and thus unpleasantness may come to an end.

Self-importance

A1 When we anguish about another?s anguish
our anguish feeds the other?s anguish
by confirming the belief in the extreme importance of life and pain
which is the deepest root of anguish.

At first, the immediate cause of anguish may be an external situation;
once anguish has manifested,
the immediate cause of anguish may be the presence of anguish itself.

A2 In the same way, consoling someone confirms
the belief in the extreme importance
of that individual, of his or her experience and of his or her grief.
Since this belief is the deepest cause of grief,
confirming it may cause grief to increase.

By trying to do something about our distress
we cause the aversion at the root of distress to increase
and confirm the illusion of absolute importance
which is the deepest cause of distress.

Blaming others

A1 As soon as we experience guilt, fear, distress
or any other undesired emotion
we want to escape.
We fail to understand that undesired emotions are painful
only when we regard them as undesirable and want to escape.

A2 Worse still,
when, for any reason, we experience guilt,
we try to get rid of it
by blaming others for the ?evil? for which we feel guilty.
Thus we add to our guilt the guilt of blaming others,
making our guilt increase and therefore giving rise
to an even greater need to blame others.

Hatred

A1 Regarding some aspects of ourselves as abhorrent,
and feeling that a self having such aspects would itself be abhorrent,
we are compelled to deny them in ourselves,
project them on others, and abhor those others.

Moreover, we can only abhor and hate others
if we justify our hatred
and elude guilt for it
by thinking that it is the fully cogent response
to the evil-doing and the supposedly evil nature
of the individual whom we hate.

A2 We evade awareness of the pain in our heart that hatred is
by concentrating on the object of our hatred
and its supposedly evil character.
Since we do not realize the pain that hatred implies,
we may continue to hate,
perpetuating the pain that hatred is.

Contemplation and uptight mindfulness

A1 In order to attain the state of Contemplation
?that is, to ?rest? in the state of absolute, nondual, undeluded Awareness?
and avoid being drawn away from this state by distracting thoughts
an alert attentiveness is needed.
However, attention is precisely what Contemplation must dissolve.

Being alert so that distraction will not carry you away generates tension.
However, tension is precisely what Contemplation must cut.

If you are not alert, thoughts will carry you away
and make you revolve in the wheel of samsara.
However, if you are alert, this will beget tension and aversion
and sustain the illusory perceiver-doer
which is the root of samsara.

A2 When we begin to meditate we keep alert
so that thoughts will not carry us away from nowness
constituting a ?chain of delusion? that would cause us
to ceaselessly revolve in the ?wheel of samsara?:
we are taught that we must ?reCognize? the essence of thoughts
so that they will liberate themselves in the ocean of gnosis?
the state of absolute, nondual, undeluded Awareness.

Trying to do this, we give rise to a delusive ?uptight mindfulness?
which is a function of the duality of subject and object
and of the delusory valuation of ?the self? and ?its thoughts??
and which, thus, keeps us revolving in the ?wheel of samsara.?

Self-consciousness

A1 When we are carrying out an activity
and worry about erring
our worry and self-consciousness interfere with our subjectivity,
causing us to blunder.

It is when fearfully we look down toward the abyss that we fall.

A2 When we become the object that others watch and judge
and thus get self-encumbered,
for fear of others and of our painful experience
we ?hide our head in the sand,?
trying to minimize suffering by minimizing awareness.
This experience of rejection, however,
will last only insofar as we reject it
and evade full awareness of it.

Delusion, distress and here-nowness

A1 The distress inherent in delusion
may be taken to be inherent in leisurely here-nowness
and, thus, we may spend our lives evading leisurely here-nowness,
trying to fill our time with business and distractions
and thus generating the aversion to the here-and-now that gives rise to distress
and missing the plenitude, fulfillment and bliss inherent in plain here-nowness.

Conceptualizing the now as being boring, we reject it
and thus experience the pain produced by rejection
that we believe to be inherent in leisurely here-nowness
and which we reject, giving rise to further pain
that we believe to be inherent in leisurely here-nowness
and which we reject, giving rise to further pain...
da capo sine fine...

A2 And, in general, when we face situations with little variety or change
?whether in our daily activity or while sitting in meditation?
we project the ideas of boredom, dullness and heaviness
and thus reject our experience, experiencing the unpleasantness
that we call ?boredom, dullness and heaviness?
and believing that it is inherent in those situations
in which there is little variety or change.
By rejecting both the unpleasantness
and the situation with which we have associated it,
we generate more unpleasantness,
that we reject, generating more unpleasantness...

Lacking

A We feel empty and try to fill this lack
by contacting, acquiring and possessing valuable objects.
However, by trying to fill our illusory lack
we affirm it as real and true,
sustaining it and making it grow in proportion
to the ?value? of the objects with which we try to fill it:
the more valuable the object, the greater our lack becomes.

Thus, by attempting to recover the original plenitude we lost
as we felt separate from the plenitude of the given,
we make ourselves empty and dissatisfied.

Others, pride and value

A We may also try to ?fill the lack? with value projected on us by others
and, becoming the object that they prize, swell our heart with pride.
However, instead of granting us plenitude,
this exposes us to the risk of being unrecognized
or of being unappreciated, despised or humiliated:
by making our heart?s fluctuations depend on the Other?s look
we condemn ourselves to anguish and anxiety and,
again and again, we must fall into the hell
of self-deprecation, disparagement and humiliation.
A swollen heart is easy to puncture
with the spear of a look or the arrow of a sharp phrase.
The more we strive to obtain a high value
through the Other?s favorable look,
the more we affirm ourselves to be lacking in value,
and so the more we need to be filled
with the value the Other bestows on us
and the more exposed to contempt and humiliation we become
?and so the more anguish we shall have to experience
and the emptier and more deprived we shall feel.

Favorable conditions

A1 The esteem and respect of many is a source of pride:
when others admire and accept the entity indicated by our name
the mental subject establishes a ?link of being? with that entity
and, accepting it, it accepts the totality of its experience and sensations
and thus experiences pleasure: as the Stoics knew well,
sensations are pleasurable when we accept them
and unpleasant when we reject them.
Thus, the others? favorable look causes us to feel well.
However, accepting whatever we are conditioned to accept,
conditions us to reject what we are conditioned to reject
whenever we meet it.
Therefore, pride causes samsara?s Ferris wheel to turn:
after we ascend, we shall have to descend
and meet the distress which human beings call ?hell.?

A2 The Buddha Shakyamuni declared that, in samsara,
pleasure is but a momentary relief from pain.

This relief is pleasurable
because it allows us to stop rejecting our experience
and accept it, thus experiencing pleasure.
However, the pleasure thus obtained is transient, for it is not possible
to make acceptance permanent, shunning rejection forever.

Looking for pleasure is a source of pain,
yet we cover the embers with so many ashes
that awhile we cannot feel the burn.
Thus, we consolidate our habit of clinging to the ember
So that sooner or later we shall burn our hand.

Worrying for others

A When those who care for us worry about our vicissitudes
the true cause of their worry is not whatever we do
but the fact that they have taken refuge in us
?who are breakable and changing entities?
rather than in their own unbreakable and changeless essence.
Nevertheless, they often make us feel
that the cause of their sorrows is our behavior
?for example, our dedication to the spiritual quest?
and thus feel justified in inflicting themselves with suffering
and feel compelled to make us feel guilty
by letting us know that we are the cause of their sorrows.
If we believe them, we may experience guilt and worry,
failing to see that they have themselves caused their own sorrows
just as we are causing ours by inflicting guilt and worry upon ourselves.

If we have any responsibility for both their suffering and ours
it lies in our mistaken refuge and the delusory valuation that sustains it.

Illness and pain

A1 By obsessively protecting ourselves
from what we regard as the sources of illness
we may give rise to the bioenergetic imbalances that beget illness.
Thus, we may give rise precisely to that which we want to avoid.

A2 Similarly, it is our rejection of ?pain?
that turns into pain what is but naked sensation:
the only pain is the one resulting from the making of pain a problem,
rejecting it, and despairing about our inability to bring it to an end.

Good and evil

A As children, we are taught that, in order to ?be good,?
we have to keep our nature under control and ?behave?
?which implies that we are inherently evil
and that this evil will manifest if we do not control our nature.

Even those of us who were told that we were ?good?
were repeatedly made to feel bad
in order to discourage unwanted behavior patterns
and make us try to feel good by adopting the ?positive? identity others offer us
and behaving as they want us to behave.

Nevertheless, since the condition of our ?goodness?
is the implantation of a monstrous phantasy
(the monster that mother saw us as while punishing us)
no matter how deep inside we bury this phantasy
it will surface again and again
soiling our ?good works? with ?evil.?

Thus, by trying to make us be ?good?
?well-meaning? people implant the roots of ?evil? in us.

Meaning

A1 When we miss the ineffable, nonconceptual meaning
there arises the need to endow our life and tasks with enunciable meanings
and to put hopes in worldly aspirations.
Then, we fear that if we lose these meanings
and fail to realize these aspirations
the result shall be meaninglessness and despair.
We cannot see that the loss of false meanings and hopes
is necessary for rediscovering the ineffable, nonconceptual meaning
inherent in the state of absolute, nondual, undeluded Awareness.

Only this meaning may make us feel
truly and completely full(filled) and realized.

A2 Because we have lost the meaning beyond words
we give rise to conceptual meanings;
because we cling to conceptual meanings
we have no access to the meaning beyond words;
because we have no access to the meaning beyond words
we give rise to conceptual meanings...
da capo sine fine...

Moralist teachings and relative practices

A Relative teachings and moralist practices
may help beings of certain capacities
to lead a less conflictive existence.
However, an exaggerated emphasis on them
may lead us to believe that rules and precepts are absolute
and that their observance is ultimately important,
thus increasing the delusory valuation that is the cause of duhkha
and making us more intolerant toward others.

Whatever causes us to rise to heaven
later on will be the cause of our falling into hell.
As stated by Yung-chia Hs?an-ch?eh:

?Giving (dana) practiced with an aim
may result in the grace of being reborn in heaven.
This, however, is like shooting an arrow upwards:
when the strength propelling the arrow is exhausted
it will return to the ground
and this will be a source of adverse karma
for times to come.?

By taking the way of heaven
we fall deep into hell.

In a succession or toothaches and ice-creams
which does the child want to have first?
It is better to step down from the wheel
that carries us up to heaven and then takes us down to hell.

Yet the worst with moralism
is that it may be used by ?demonic? pseudomasters
as a pretext for murdering truly Enlightened Masters.
In the name of purity, the greatest possible fault is committed.

Despise the passions?

A1 Let us take the example of anger:
If I despise my anger
I shall give rise to anger against my anger.
Since anger against anger is also anger,
by despising anger I shall produce more of what I want to uproot.

The more my anger grows, the more I shall despise it;
the more I despise it, the more it will grow.

A2 In general, it is impossible
to despise our passions without despising ourselves,
for we feel responsible for our passions
(and, when we no longer do so, we are no longer prey to passions).

So, when we despise our passions we become a despicable self;
the more we despise them, the more despicable we become,
and the more despicable we become,
the more the passions that we deem despicable grow in us.

Purification

A If one tries to ?purify oneself? through relative practices
?from the visualization and recitation of Vajrasattva
to practices of tsa/lung/thigle ?
the assumption that there is an impurity to be purified
will sustain the delusory valuation of thought
and thus the duality and judgement which constitute the impurity.
Thus, our endeavor will be comparable
to cleaning a pristine mirror with a dirty cloth.

If the bioenergetic input is high enough,
if one is subject to the supreme samaya of Dzogchen,
and if one possesses the instruction,
self-liberation will disperse the clouds
covering the sky and blocking the sunlight.

Contrariwise, the idea of an impurity to be purified
Sooner or later would become the door to hell.

Opening up

A1 We fear opening up,
feeling that this would expose us to evil and harm
and, eventually, make us lose ourselves and ultimately be destroyed.
How little we realize that we can only be harmed
when, being possessed by delusory valuation, dualism and self-clinging,
and believing that we are ultimately real and important selves
to be protected and safeguarded, we close ourselves:
since the supposedly real and important ?I? may always be harmed
we are thus condemned to terror, anguish and anxiety
and provide a target that is vulnerable to attack.

By opening up and attaining Enlightenment, instead,
we attain plenitude and stability that cannot be harmed
and are freed from fear, anguish and anxiety.

A2 In the same way, we fear that if we open up
an underground monster lurking in our depths may possess us.
However, the monster of unconscious phantasy is sustained
by our drive to check it and keep it under control:
by supposing that it is our deepest nature,
we keep it alive, producing unforeseen effects.

If we applied the instructions and opened up, the illusory monster
would dissolve in anoic gnosis free of subject and object
and we would be rid of inveterate impulses.

Uneasiness in meditation

A When we sit in meditation and look at our thoughts
we may feel uneasy
and think that this uneasiness is inherent in meditation.
Actually, it is the uneasiness of delusory valuation and grasping,
which normally we fail to realize as such
because we are closed and our attention is preoccupied
with countless projects and ideas.
If this uneasiness becomes evident when we sit to meditate,
we may wrongly associate it with meditation and openness
and thus be ?instinctively? tempted to interrupt our meditation
and keep clinging to and following overvalued thoughts,
trying to escape from uneasiness
by clinging to its very source.

If, instead, (we) ?reCognize? the essence of the present thought
and thus ?Enter? the State
uneasiness disappears in the plenitude and bliss of the unborn.

We project the uneasiness of delusory valuation
on openness and Contemplation
and thus keep from the latter
and cling to and follow overvalued thoughts,
reaffirming and reinforcing the source of uneasiness.

Boredom in meditation

A In Contemplation, plenitude, bliss and satisfaction are inexhaustible.
However, sooner or later, Contemplation is interrupted,
we feel separate from the continuum of the Base,
become obsessed with an object of desire which we imagine
will provide us with plenitude, bliss and satisfaction,
and, by developing a powerful yearning for it,
we maintain the state of illusory duality and separation
which is lack of plenitude, distress and dissatisfaction.
Thus, we compulsively run after our own tail
which, no matter how fast we spin, always remains out of reach.

If the conception of an object of desire
does not spontaneously liberate itself upon appearing
and we fail to apply the instruction which allows its self-liberation
the uneasiness of delusory valuation and desire will drive us
to interrupt our practice in order to run after the object of desire.

Too many passions and delusions in Contemplation

A If, while we ?practice? Contemplation,
passions and delusions arise uninterruptedly
and we experience anguish or uneasiness
we feel that these are justified
by the undesirable flow of passions and delusions
which we believe is their objective cause.
However, in truth our uneasiness springs
from the delusory valuation of the concept of ?passions and delusions?
and the belief that these are inherently undesirable.

Profound instructions

A When the ?two lights? shine and, failing to ?reCognize? their nonduality,
the ?light of the son? fights against the ?mother light,?
or when a tremendous agitation possesses us
and we do not manage to cease struggling and despairing,
we should apply the ?profound instructions? we have received.

However, the more we apply these instructions
in order to ?resolve? the situation,
the more we affirm ourselves as different from the latter
and the more value and reality we ascribe
to both the situation and ourselves;
therefore, the more we affirm and sustain our delusion
and the more conflictive and unbearable we make our situation.

Our attempt to resolve the situation
reinforces the situation we want to resolve.

Peaceful mandalas

A Our inability to somehow alter the impassivity of peaceful mandalas
?the peaceful, undefiable immutability of the ground?
seemingly begets irritation. Actually, the cause of irritation
is the inveterate impulses of delusion
rather than the peaceful mandalas to which we are reacting
and which we thus turn into wrathful mandalas.

Wrathful mandalas

A If, when (we) are ?resting? in the state of Contemplation
and the bioenergetic input is very high,
we feel subtly separate of whatever is happening
the experience of the wrathful mandalas may take place:
the flow of experience shakes us until the delusion
of someone who is shaken and something shaking her or him
dissolves in absolute, nondual, undeluded Awareness.

Ignoring that the agitation that we suffer
is the skillful means of the True Teacher
we may feel anguished and resist and try to escape,
thus increasing the agitation:
our most precious friend is perceived as our most dreadful enemy.

III. Social Laces

Ecology and survival

A Our terror of insecurity and impermanence leads us to invent
technological ?solutions? in order to eradicate
all risks of death, illness and all that we consider to be a problem.
Thus, we produce pesticides, chemical fertilizers, antibiotics,
drugs and all kinds of ?sciences,? devices and machines
?from nuclear energy to genetic engineering?
that disrupt the ecological balance on which our lives depend
both in the so-called ?external world? and ?inside our bodies.?

We try to destroy the ?negative? side of the coin of existence
?the side featuring death, suffering, illness, discomfort,
insecurity, hard work, pain and so on?
by constantly putting corrosives on it.
Nowadays, corrosion has worn away so much of the coin
that it is about to reach the side we wished to preserve
?life, joy, health, comfort, security, leisure, pleasure and so on?
and thus put an end to human existence.

By trying to destroy death
we have come to the brink of bringing all life to an end.

Social change

A1 The oppressive structures of society are internalized by all of us,
molding our psychological and experiential structures.
If we set out to transform society
without having transformed our own inner structures
we unavoidably reproduce those structures in the new order of things.

Therefore, what we mean to be a total transformation of society
will be but a mere change of masters.

A2 The internalized, aggressive and oppressive elements of society
are integrated into the structure of our psyche.
If we project those elements of our psyche on the ruling class
and try to destroy them by destroying the members of that class
our destructive and oppressive actions will make all the more powerful
the negative elements of our psyche which we wished to destroy.
Having destroyed the ones on whom we projected those elements,
the latter?s? underground presence will be felt again in our own selves
and thus we shall be compelled to project them in new ?others?
who may also be destroyed as though they were those aspects.

The enemy

A Fearing that the Enemy may destroy us
we have almost achieved the destruction that we fear.

If we used the most powerful weapons that we have developed
we would not only destroy our enemies, but would destroy ourselves.
Moreover, in building those weapons we have released
so much radioactive pollutants into the environment,
that even if we do not use them our survival is uncertain.


--------------------
...or something







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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: grumpy response here: [Re: gnrm23]
    #4399207 - 07/13/05 11:39 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

gnrm23 said:
"bullshit"
well...
yr POV okeydokey, mate...


so somebody comes up to late, great, scifi writer theodore sturgeon back in the 50s & sez to him "well, 85% of this science fiction stuff is crap!" & sturgeon replied "OK, but 85% of _everything_ is crap."


this observation has henceforth been known as "sturgeon's law"


~

so, applying my own math here, 100% - 85% = 15%...
therefore 15% of _everything_ is NOT crap...

go for the gold, grasshopper...

there's pearls in the mire...
there's diamonds in the rough...
there's a lotus bloom in foetid water...
& that should be enough...





ymmv...





You say 85% is bullshit, but you didn't say where does this opinion come from. What is your source of information that led you to think this?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,662
Loc: On the Border
Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4399706 - 07/13/05 02:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"1.yes there was a huge flood in the regions of mezopotamia

2.How can there be any record of garden of eden or anything like that if first man did not develop writing?

3. Romans did mention Jewish false messiahs, they did not name them though, Jesus was one of them, why would he be remembered by romans or named in their texts if they didn't believe in Jewish messiahs?"

None of that justifies calling the Bible confirmed history. And the flood part is pure conjecture by people trying to declare the Bible history. Declaring that the Garden of Eden could be true because there was no recorded history is a fallacy in logic. If there is no record of something then there is no proof as to it's existance.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (07/13/05 03:13 PM)


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4399740 - 07/13/05 02:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

God has no religion. God is God and men are men. Men can find God. Jesus Christ found him. To be a Christian in the true form, is to be Christ like. To learn. To search the path of God and Love thru the example of Jesus the Christ.

This has already been said. This thread is great.

I agree that when people get toghter take in cash, buy cars, houses and let the poor in there own church suffer. They are so far from the truth it can be concidered evil.

but please do not underestimate what Jesus taught.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #4399764 - 07/13/05 02:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
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Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #4399772 - 07/13/05 02:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i think after reading all this im with ghandi....i like that quote, i like your chirst but not your christians... the christian right makes me violent :wink:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4399823 - 07/13/05 03:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"1.yes there was a huge flood in the regions of mezopotamia

2.How can there be any record of garden of eden or anything like that if first man did not develop writing?

3. Romans did mention Jewish false messiahs, they did not name them though, Jesus was one of them, why would he be remembered by romans or named in their texts if they didn't believe in Jewish messiahs?"

None of that justifies calling the Bible confirmed history. And the flood part is pure conjecture by people trying to declare the Bible history.




ok, a book mentiones a flood, and the flood happens around that time, and then your conclusion is that it is coincedence?

What about this..
Newspaper reports a plane crash, and place crashes a few hours before it got out in newspapers. the newspaper didn't actually know about the crash, they made that up, and luckily for them there actually was a plane crash. Does that make any less sense that what you said?


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4399846 - 07/13/05 03:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"and the flood happens around that time"
Around what time...details...the Red Sea certainly joined the ocean at some point which "could" have made a large flood. This flood "could" have influenced the creation of the myth....but this does not make the myth history. As far as Eden is concerned, do not let the nonexistance of records stand as proof to it's possible existance.....lack of evidence means NO evidence.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4399858 - 07/13/05 03:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

And no evidence means nothing. It just means no evidence


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4399864 - 07/13/05 03:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

KingOftheThing said:
i think after reading all this im with ghandi....i like that quote, i like your chirst but not your christians... the christian right makes me violent :wink:




Right on! This is what I assmued you were saying all along.  By the way I agree with you totally here. I grew up in christanity. To this day I don't feel I have ever met one who practices what christ taught. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Icelander]
    #4399872 - 07/13/05 03:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

then stop expecting people to be consistant with Jesus, it will be a lot easier to accept christianity. The only reason they don't folow his words is because they can't, the simply are not able.


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4399876 - 07/13/05 03:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I spent several years in the " Goverment" of the Church. I no longer get involved with organized churches because it ended up making me very disapointed in the end. Greed has many faces

Jesus is the Lord of my life. Not that he is my king as to " Do as I say " But as to I follow his lead. He is the leader in my life. That is all God wants. For us to learn and live as God himself would as a man. Jesus was that man example. The most well known that is.

Anyway I suggest to you and everyone. Take sometime and read the words of Jesus and try to see the love in his words. I have read a lot of words in this forum. Many blessed people and many educated people have opened my mind and heart to new ideas and beliefe's.

But one thing I see all the time is a quick attempt to bash Jesus based on the men of the world and what they have done to the world.

AS simple as it sounds every question can be answered with another question...... What would Jesus do ?

Now the only way to know what would he do. Is to get to know him. Read the words of Jesus. Bring his words into a place of your mind to be meditated over. Then find ways to promote his ideals into your daily life. Then once you begin to see the fruits of the mind of Jesus in your life. The rest of " Faith " come as natural as the sun on your face. It is not what you must do but, what you learn and what you learn makes you what you are. What you are and what you become dictates how well you hear the spirt of God.


Opps I started a Lesson...... Sorry :-)


Anyway Jesus never taught people to lie steal and cheat. Like so many of the churches do today. He also never taught that men should go to war etc...........

Men will fail you always. By keeping your eyes on the goal you can learn the truth.


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It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4399901 - 07/13/05 03:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
then stop expecting people to be consistant with Jesus, it will be a lot easier to accept christianity. The only reason they don't folow his words is because they can't, the simply are not able.




Well I do accept Christanity. What I don't want to be forced into, is living in this country  by their rules. Christanity is being used to oppress people here. And around the world.

This happens with many religions. That's why I personally have no use for them. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Icelander]
    #4399918 - 07/13/05 03:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
then stop expecting people to be consistant with Jesus, it will be a lot easier to accept christianity. The only reason they don't folow his words is because they can't, the simply are not able.




Well I do accept Christanity. What I don't want to be forced into, is living in this country  by their rules. Christanity is being used to oppress people here. And around the world.

This happens with many religions. That's why I personally have no use for them. :mushroom2:




what do you mean? what rules are those?


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #4399925 - 07/13/05 03:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"the christian right makes me violent"

It is amazing that they have exerted such control over you. The only person that can make me violent is myself.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4399950 - 07/13/05 03:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

are you so certain?

If your brain is simply a logical machine that is based on series of causes and effects, then your choice is only an illusion, there are triggers and there are actions.


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #4399962 - 07/13/05 03:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What about asking "What would a good person do?"

How do we know that the words in the bible haven't been twisted by the apostles in order to sell the religion?

Quote:


"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).




What would Jesus do? Convince himself that he is the most important person on the planet and that the only way for anyone to achieve happiness is to follow him. I'm not sure if megalomania is an admirable trait.


Matthew 10:34-35
Quote:

"34: Think not that I am come to bring peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

"35: For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."





Luke 14:26
Quote:

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple




Luke 19:27
Quote:

27: But those mine enemies which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.




--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4399990 - 07/13/05 03:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)


ok, a book mentiones a flood, and the flood happens around that time, and then your conclusion is that it is coincedence?


Is "around that time" a period of several years? Several dozen years?

I hear about a large number of floods on the news every year. Showing that a flood happened in a certain area within a relatively large time span doesn't proove anything. In the old days, before they had further developed methods of planning locations for farmland or housing, or created dams to prevent flooding, floods were more likely to cause damage.

I have a theory that there was a huge civilization of intelligent beings that had no bones, and no written language. They built all of their technology and buildings out of soft, biodegradable organic material. How do I know this? I have proof; there is nothing left of them. They kept no written records, and all of their remains decomposed quickly, before they could fossilize. How else could this have happened if my theory were not correct?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: eve69]
    #4399995 - 07/13/05 04:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I read it from beginning to end, and I noticed that about 3/4 down there was a dopey-feeling grin on my face  :grin: I enjoy Buddhist psychology and if there is one thing a long-winded person like myself appreciates, it's someone even more long-winded than I am! :smile: Writers like the one you cited, and posters like me ought to go to Long-Winded Anonymous meetings where you feel good about yourself relative to the others at the meeting. Hey, it's putting the "delusorily valued thought" of another to good use making one feel better about oneself  :laugh:

Thanks for posting!


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Phluck]
    #4400013 - 07/13/05 04:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
What about asking "What would a good person do?"

How do we know that the words in the bible haven't been twisted by the apostles in order to sell the religion?

Quote:


"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).




What would Jesus do? Convince himself that he is the most important person on the planet and that the only way for anyone to achieve happiness is to follow him. I'm not sure if megalomania is an admirable trait.


Matthew 10:34-35
Quote:

"34: Think not that I am come to bring peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

"35: For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."





Luke 14:26
Quote:

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple




Luke 19:27
Quote:

27: But those mine enemies which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.









LOL these are great examples of not understanding what jesus was teaching. If you read the entire chapters you might get a understanding of what he was saying.


First.....To get to God is thru Jesus. That is, Jesus was the example.

Second....Jesus was saying that he did not come here to be idol. He came here to spread the truth by a "sword ofhis tounge. Not a actual sword. To say he will use a sword is to say that he will dowhat ever nesseceryto let us in on the truth. Even his death.


Third..... again jesus was speaking " What ever it takes to find God"
Not.......


Look it is simple really. Jesus taught in many stories and parables. Just as he was not talking about a mustard seeds he was not talking about killing your mother or hating anyone.

The point in all of your quotes is that God and the path to God must be put before all else.


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Phluck]
    #4400041 - 07/13/05 04:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:

ok, a book mentiones a flood, and the flood happens around that time, and then your conclusion is that it is coincedence?


Is "around that time" a period of several years? Several dozen years?

I hear about a large number of floods on the news every year. Showing that a flood happened in a certain area within a relatively large time span doesn't proove anything. In the old days, before they had further developed methods of planning locations for farmland or housing, or created dams to prevent flooding, floods were more likely to cause damage.

I have a theory that there was a huge civilization of intelligent beings that had no bones, and no written language. They built all of their technology and buildings out of soft, biodegradable organic material. How do I know this? I have proof; there is nothing left of them. They kept no written records, and all of their remains decomposed quickly, before they could fossilize. How else could this have happened if my theory were not correct?




you say it yourself. There were lots of floods, one of the could have influenced the bible


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Phluck]
    #4400055 - 07/13/05 04:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:

I have a theory that there was a huge civilization of intelligent beings that had no bones, and no written language. They built all of their technology and buildings out of soft, biodegradable organic material. How do I know this? I have proof; there is nothing left of them. They kept no written records, and all of their remains decomposed quickly, before they could fossilize. How else could this have happened if my theory were not correct?





what are you trying to point out with this little story? WHat does this have to do with what we are talking about?


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4400073 - 07/13/05 04:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)


you say it yourself. There were lots of floods, one of the could have influenced the bible


Oh sure, the flood in the bible may have been loosely based on a real flood. Very loosely.

It's quite likely that the only relation between the flood in the bible and the real flood was that there was some water involved.

As for my little story, it had not particular purpose. I was just thinking of some weird "creation science" type logic and being stoned. It was a non-sequitor.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Phluck]
    #4400102 - 07/13/05 04:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No... In your quotation:

"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).

This is profoundly metaphysical, not psychologically pathological. "I AM" - the Name of Deity revealed to Moses on Mt. Sinai ["Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh" - usually mistranslated "I AM THAT I AM" but more accurately translated "I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE"]. It could have been rendered grammatically: 'I am is the Way..." but in this passage, in the way of a mystic who is identified with BEING, Jesus is NOT speaking of His embodied-ego. He is referring to BEING, the Logos, the Eternal Ground of Being - GOD.

"No one comes to the Father except through me." Again, NOT the 30+ year old carpenter from Nazareth, but the Logos, later called the 'Prolation of the Second Hypostasis of the Trinity,' or 'the Son.' The Logos, not even as defined by Greek philosophical schools, but by Philo of Alexandria, a Hellenized Jewish philosophy of Jesus' time, is the 'aspect' of the Godhead that 'interfaces' with human consciousness. So identified was the consciousness of Jesus with this Divine Consciousness (i.e., Holy Spirit), that in prophetic fashion, Jesus served as the 'Mouthpiece' of the LORD. Aaron, Moses' brother had served similarly for Moses (the greatest prophet) because Moses had a speech impediment. But Jesus' ontological nature was supposed to have surpassed the prophets - even Moses - in that He did not say "thus sayeth the LORD," but spoke 'as if' the LORD were speaking directly!
This was blasphemous, and for blasphemy Jesus was condemned by the Jewish elders.

It was the author John who changed the theology of Jesus from 'a man annointed [Christed] by GOD' to 'GOD clothed in flesh.' This changed radically the ontological nature [nature of Jesus' 'ontos' - being] from essentially human to essentially GOD. Theological arguments continue to this day over whether the nature of Jesus' Divinity is a matter of (1) species or (2) degree. The first choice puts Jesus on a pedestal, magnified by the mythic proportion of a virgin birth, and puts an unbridgeable gulf between Him and us. If Jesus is of a different specie of being, He is forever unique and forever different than us. I used to adhere to this and favor John (because John was the most Cosmic). Now, I return to the 3 Synoptic [Same View] Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke, and return Jesus to our humanity as a human who Knew GOD more intimately than the rest of us, but Who taught us how to do likewise by 'Being in Christ' like He was. Y'shua ben Miriam, of Nazareth was 'in Christ' - conscious of Being in the Logos, and the Logos in Him.

Jesus would never had said anything like 'I am GOD.' In fact He was supposed to have said "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God..." (Matt. 19:17 KJV). It only sounds egotistical to our own egos! When our egos are diminished, it just sounds True for Jesus and myself, and all I can do is nod affirmatively and feel extraordinarily humble by the realization. If pride, arrogance, specialness occur, then the realization is not True, it is merely an ego-inflation - meglomania, paranoia, delusions of grandeur - that leads to a massive (sometimes explosive) deflation.


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4400134 - 07/13/05 04:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Holy God Almighty, what a mess of a thread. So long! Anyway, a few quick points:

1) KoTK said, "if you read history, things that can be proved..." Such a view of history imbues it with undue credit. Not only is "proof" elusive and difficult to define for scientists, but anything nearing proof is largley unattainable for historians. Especially when it comes to a text like the Old Testament, which is pretty much the only historical record of the Hebrews at the time. There are mentions of Hebrews in some Egyptian, Babylonian, and other Ancient Near Eastern texts but all in all they are rather sparse.

2) The parent post is so general as to ignore the importance of the "religious experience" for individual men and women. Religion not only does something for man, but occasionally he has a direct and unmediated experience of the divine (which may or may not be largley or entirely independent of whatever religious institution he might be a part of). Institutional religion probably arises out of these ecstatic experiences which tend to become ritualized and stultified; still, the religious experience does something more than what the institutions do, and this feeling that it gives to man is important to him. This point has already been made, but is important enough to be re-iterated because you can't leave the religious experience out of any religious discussion.

3) When it comes archeologically refutable claims about history, science can talk about religion. When it comes to the metaphysical, the theology, science has essentially no say. Likewise, science can't tell you whether a piece of music or a poem is any good. They are entirely different realms. How can you measure the infinite? You can't. And you can't quantify the value of a piece of art. That doesn't make it unreal.

p.s. Maybe it's just me, but when I see insanely long posts that consist entirely of some quoted text or webpage, I tend to skip over them. The information might be worthwhile and even relevant to a discussion, but long quotes throw off the pace of things.


--------------------
\


Edited by mikeytwice (07/13/05 04:49 PM)


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4400186 - 07/13/05 05:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This is profoundly metaphysical, not psychologically pathological.

Well, that only makes sense if you're coming from the perspective that Jesus was correct. If you already have faith that Jesus WAS the mouthpiece of God, then it is quite easy to see him as humble.

However, if you have the tendency to approach Jesus' story as though it were someone from your own town, then it seems quite odd that someone would believe that THEY had been chosen as the mouthpiece of God.

It only sounds egotistical to our own egos! When our egos are diminished, it just sounds True for Jesus and myself, and all I can do is nod affirmatively and feel extraordinarily humble by the realization. If pride, arrogance, specialness occur, then the realization is not True, it is merely an ego-inflation - meglomania, paranoia, delusions of grandeur - that leads to a massive (sometimes explosive) deflation.

I don't see how pride or ego have any impact on truth. How can anyone say for certain how Jesus felt? Are we sure that he didn't feel any pride, or is this simply a reflection of the perception people have of Jesus. He is seen as so good and pure that the idea that he could be arrogant seems unrealistic.

Just as Jesus has become a symbol for goodness, ego seems to have become a symbol for bad. People have associated pride and ego with arrogance and nastiness, and thus "revelations" that come amidst these emotions are assumed to be further from truth.

While a "revelation" that is accompanied by pride might be considered less true by someone with a distaste for pride, it would seem to me that this has more to do with a psychological association between pride and wrongness than a real correlation.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4400361 - 07/13/05 05:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The choice is in responding to the trigger.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4400389 - 07/13/05 05:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"one of the could have influenced the bible"
Influence does not mean the great flood was fact. Human beings influenced the Bible because they existed, but that does not mean it is historical fact. Earlier you declared the Bible to be documented historical fact. It is myth and is not meant to stand as history.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4400436 - 07/13/05 05:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
The choice is in responding to the trigger.




how do you know that you chose to respond and not respond automatically?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Phluck]
    #4400482 - 07/13/05 06:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The personality of Jesus that can be gleaned from the NT as a whole, suggests a profoundly loving person. Such an individual would be humble inasmuch as love is selfless, (vs. selfish), attentive-to-the-other in the sense of being fully present to another and highly aware in that relationship. All of these dynamics are opposite of the poor listener, the egotist and egoist who literally says: "Enough about you - let's talk about ME."

It is not about whether Jesus was so "good and pure" in some culturally-defined etiquette sense. A holy man in any tradition guards against something as blatant as arrogance. Pride was the 'primal sin' of Lucifer in myth and Jesus knew that most assuredly. Give the Man some credit will ya?


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4400773 - 07/13/05 07:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
then stop expecting people to be consistant with Jesus, it will be a lot easier to accept christianity. The only reason they don't folow his words is because they can't, the simply are not able.




Well I do accept Christanity. What I don't want to be forced into, is living in this country  by their rules. Christanity is being used to oppress people here. And around the world.

This happens with many religions. That's why I personally have no use for them. :mushroom2:




what do you mean? what rules are those?




Like making abortion illegal.  Forcing prayer in church.  The religious right has power in this country Old. It's a continual battlel to stop them using their distorted beliefs to govern this country.

And in other countries the Pope says no to birth control. That's his rule. Or abortion. ect. ect. ect.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4400810 - 07/13/05 07:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

what do you mean? what rules are those?




I would add censorship, laws against same-sex marriage, disallowing government/employment benefits for same-sex AND opposite sex unmarried partners, discrimination against homosexuals, "In God We Trust" printed on our paper money, "One Nation Under God" in our Pledge of Allegiance...I could go on!

The separation of church and state is fatally compromised.


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Icelander]
    #4400984 - 07/13/05 08:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"Like making abortion illegal. Forcing prayer in church. The religious right has power in this country Old. It's a continual battlel to stop them using their distorted beliefs to govern this country."

In this country abortion is legal, but why would someone go to church and object to praying?(I am puzzled here) In the end no one is making you follow any religiously oriented rules....I have a feeling that this could not be done even if it were law...so why worry? Yes there are many battles about what should or should not be legal, but is that not what a democracy is about? Everybody has their say...right or wrong. These are good resons we should be politically active no matter what our views on government. As far as the Pope goes...I am not Catholic so I could care less what they do....but those people in third world nations you refer to choose to be Catholic...and many are quite militant about it.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Icelander]
    #4400988 - 07/13/05 08:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
then stop expecting people to be consistant with Jesus, it will be a lot easier to accept christianity. The only reason they don't folow his words is because they can't, the simply are not able.




Well I do accept Christanity. What I don't want to be forced into, is living in this country  by their rules. Christanity is being used to oppress people here. And around the world.

This happens with many religions. That's why I personally have no use for them. :mushroom2:




what do you mean? what rules are those?




Like making abortion illegal.  Forcing prayer in church.  The religious right has power in this country Old. It's a continual battlel to stop them using their distorted beliefs to govern this country.

And in other countries the Pope says no to birth control. That's his rule. Or abortion. ect. ect. ect.





forcing prayer in church? :lol: why do you go to church in the first place?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4400994 - 07/13/05 08:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

OOps I meant school :blush:  :grin: Kind of below par today.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (07/13/05 08:20 PM)


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Veritas]
    #4401002 - 07/13/05 08:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

what do you mean? what rules are those?




I would add censorship, laws against same-sex marriage, disallowing government/employment benefits for same-sex AND opposite sex unmarried partners, discrimination against homosexuals, "In God We Trust" printed on our paper money, "One Nation Under God" in our Pledge of Allegiance...I could go on!

The separation of church and state is fatally compromised.




Ok, as for homosexual issues, that goes beyond religion, people simply don't like them, so they cause a lot of problems to them, that will pass.

But are you really damaged by what is writen on money?

So the guy printing money trusts in god, so what?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4401022 - 07/13/05 08:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

We are talking about rules imposed by religious believers. In the US money is not "legal tender" unless it is imprinted with a religious sentiment. And the Pledge of Allegiance, which is meant to involve political loyalty, includes a religious pledge as well.


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Veritas]
    #4401050 - 07/13/05 08:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

so what, it's just words, a formality, it means nothing

I bet that most people when they pledge don't even think about the meaning of the words, they just try to remember how it goes and get it over with. It's like sorting paperwork.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


Edited by OldWoodSpecter (07/13/05 08:33 PM)


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4401067 - 07/13/05 08:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Wrong! It means lots. It's propaganda. And how about addressing the other issues here. If you don't think that the main thrust behind abortion issues isn't religious then you just don't have enough information.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Icelander]
    #4401116 - 07/13/05 08:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I was talking about homosexuality , not abortion


And propaganda works if you let it work. The country was founded on christian tradition. Should it throw away its roots just for the sake of some rebelious act against religions?

The real question is, why does it bother you?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4401147 - 07/13/05 08:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I can't be more clear on this then I have already been. This country was not founded on a christian tradition IMO. It was founded on seperation between church and state. And I am talking about abortion. I brought it up and you never addressed it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Icelander]
    #4401195 - 07/13/05 09:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

ok then let's talk about abortion..

It is a conflict of two opinions regarding the subject. Naturally, those with higher power push their opinion to be the dominant one.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4401257 - 07/13/05 09:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Right!


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Icelander]
    #4401265 - 07/13/05 09:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

wow, that was over quick  :grin:

come, on let's see those fists, I'm not satisfied yet, punch me, punch me!!

:crazy2: :tongue2:


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4401277 - 07/13/05 09:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Na! I'm sick remember. You have me at a disadvantage.  I know you Old, you win by outlasting your opponents. I can't compete today. You win. :heart: :heart: :heart: :fried:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Icelander]
    #4401297 - 07/13/05 09:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:lol: yea that is exactly what I do, I'm busted, but I have another sicret technique, observe me closely in the future :smile:


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4401315 - 07/13/05 09:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Very mysterious! :confused:  You also seem to be unattached to any position. You are a facinating fellow. :sherlock:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Icelander]
    #4402529 - 07/14/05 07:56 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I always try to take the oposite position of what was the first post in a thread about. If it is something about selfishness and violence, I'll defend peace and love. If it is something against greed and violence, then I'll try to defend greed and violence.
Of course, it is very hard not to include my own personal views in this, but I try


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4402534 - 07/14/05 07:59 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Very cool. I have noticed. Thats what I meant by not attached.

Now tell me. Why do you take this approch?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Icelander]
    #4402687 - 07/14/05 10:08 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The words "separation of church and state" appear nowhere in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence. The constitution says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" - and you can interpret that how you will. But supposing there are no laws involved, any practice is outside the realm of government officials...

And to say America wasn't founded on a christian tradition ignores the fact that most founding fathers were christian and many early settlers came ot avoid religious persecution - and I don't think they were those damn Moslems or anything...


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\


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Icelander]
    #4402911 - 07/14/05 11:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Very cool. I have noticed. Thats what I meant by not attached.

Now tell me. Why do you take this approch?




Simply because I feel obligated to help to return every discussion in the middle (uncertainty). It's a sceptic approach


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: mikeytwice]
    #4402922 - 07/14/05 11:41 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Wikipedia said:
In the United States, separation of church and state is governed by the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and by legal precedents interpreting that clause.





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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4402925 - 07/14/05 11:42 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Neat! I'll remember that. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: mikeytwice]
    #4403613 - 07/14/05 02:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Actually, geniuses like Jefferson and Franklin were 'Deists.' which was a popular theological position to take in the period of 'the Enlightenment.' Much of the universal truth was adopted from the Bible, but little to none Christian doctrine per se. The Deist position also underlies Freemasonry, to which George Washington belonged. Even though the Bible is considered in the West to be 'The Light of Freemasonry,' one need not be a Jew or a Christian, but one must acknowledge GOD in some way - T:.G:.G:.O:.T:.U:. - The Grand Geometer Of The Universe.

Franklin, on the other hand, belonged to a wild playboy-like group called 'The Hellfire Club' in which all manner of sexual debauchery was said to have gone on. Not Christian in its regard for sexuality at all.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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more bullshit... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4407133 - 07/15/05 09:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

well, it was quite possible for some of them old "founding fathers" to hold more than one idea in their heads at a time... and for (some of) them to belong to more than one ummmm organization at a time...

as to "most" of them being "christian" - well, i dunno... and to be a "founding father (what about the founding mothers, eh?) --- did one merely have to affix one's signature to the document, or must one have been actively involved in its crafting? and which document: the decaration of independence, the articles of confedration, the constitution???
the framers of the constitution wrangled long and hard over the language, and the powers vested in the 3 banches of the government...
(and the powers vested in the people themselves, the citizens... and what "being a citizen" might mean in this era of new possibilities...)

the "bill of rights" (the first 10 amendments to the US constitiution) church/state seperation was put there to forbid "the state" from making one particular religion "official" (or even worse mandatory!), and to allow "the people" to worship any damned way they please, or even to (gasp!) not worship at all...

the USA has long been in a sort of "armed truce" between the various reigious groups vying for supremacy, but (allah be praised!) not has yet established a theocracy, mmmmkay?

(again to note: there used to be one of those "send in a buck for our info" ads in the back of maybe popular science, i dunno... like those crazy AMORC ads, heh... for a group called SEA (the society of evangelical agnostics)... & their literature & bibliography lists were great fun... & they had an excellent suggestion for those agnostics who find them selves in a situation where public prayer is practiced ---> OK, you don't wanna bow your head like all the sheeple around you, but ostentateously making some sort of a row is just bad form, innit? soooo: silently & respectfully, keep your head raised, your eyes open, maybe your armes crossed, or even better, one handed fisted under your chin... and perhaps allowinf a faintly puzzled look to settle on you visage (as if wondering to yourself: "gee whiz, what are all these folks doing with this hand-folding & bowed heads & some guest preacher droning on invoking something or other?")(

~

sound like a plan, stan?


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4407283 - 07/15/05 11:11 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Give the Man some credit will ya?

C'mon, he gets lots of credit as it is. There are tons of churches around the world devoted to worshipping the guy.

Sure the way he's portrayed is as a loving, nice guy, but my point is we really don't know for sure who he was or what was going on in his mind.

There are a lot of con artist "holy men" out there who use painted on selflessness as a cover for their greed.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Phluck]
    #4407324 - 07/15/05 11:33 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

he is not worshiped as an actual person, his imprint into text is worshiped, his words, the image that is in the bible is what is worshiped. As long as that is so, it doesn't matter if he was just kidding about all that suff or being a liar.

If a fool says something wise out of ignorance, it is not less wise than the same word that came from some that ment it.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Phluck]
    #4407688 - 07/15/05 02:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well, when He acts in and through me, I 'Know' His mind intimately. Now, mind you when I say His mind, I mean the Logos, not something mundane>

Love can change the world
Love can change your life
Do what makes you happy
Do what you know is right
And love with all your might
Before it's too late.

Where did I find all these words?
Something inside of me is burning
There's life in other worlds
Maybe they'll come to earth
Helping man to find a way.

One day I hope we'll be in perfect harmony
A planet with one mind
Then I could tell you All the things inside my head.

- 'My Song' (Moody Blues, 'Every Good Boy Deserves Favour')


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (07/15/05 11:50 PM)


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4409111 - 07/15/05 08:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Mark I  :heart: this song.  I'm a very long time Moody Blues fan. When I first started trippin in 70,  they were my favorite band to trip to; along with pink floyd.  :thumbup: I still listen to both.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Icelander]
    #4409227 - 07/15/05 09:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You guys should check out the book:
The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross: A Study of the Nature and Origins of Christianity within the Fertility Cults of the Ancient Near East





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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Icelander]
    #4409385 - 07/15/05 10:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"When I first started trippin in 70, they were my favorite band to trip to; along with pink floyd. I still listen to both."

Your experience mirrors mine...except in 81 instead.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4409388 - 07/15/05 10:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Why am I not surprised. :grin: :heart: :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Icelander]
    #4410467 - 07/16/05 02:45 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Christianity is boring.


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4410516 - 07/16/05 02:58 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Which version of Christianity are you referring to?


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4411671 - 07/16/05 02:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Boredom is an emotional condition of YOUR mind, not a quality of a reality to which your singular life pales in comparison.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4412025 - 07/16/05 04:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The veneration of Christ.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: spud]
    #4412423 - 07/16/05 07:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Allegro's work is a classic farce. Andrija Puharich tried to make a similar claim for ancient Egyptian civilization.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Icelander]
    #4412496 - 07/16/05 07:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, and to those I would add the Grateful Dead and New Riders of the Purple Sage. I began taking psychedelics in June of 1971 and all of these guys took me places that I never would've gone but for their lyrics as food for thought.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleMerkin
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Fospher]
    #4413466 - 07/17/05 01:40 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:





Pushing atheism is just pushing another belief. People are religious for spirituality and direction, not to pick at logic of the belief with your own.






LOL, who said anything a bout atheism???!

:rolleyes:

:|


--------------------
Wheels of cheese wheeels of cheeeeese!!!


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4413836 - 07/17/05 03:09 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well, Christianity bores my mind.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4414099 - 07/17/05 07:33 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Boredom is an emotional condition of YOUR mind, not a quality of a reality to which your singular life pales in comparison.




In fact it's not even an emotion, it's lack of attention, detachment from the environment, it's almost like a malfunction of the mind.
A bored mind is a lost mind


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4414131 - 07/17/05 08:31 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Boredom is attitudinal, but I called it emotional. It is like a 'buffer' of some kind which prevents focus. Boredom refuses to 'dig,' to 'get into' whatever is offerred to the mind at a given time. Adolescents, for example, will attend quite readily to other kids around them, to the tiniest detail, but will 'be bored by' and tune out the subject matter at hand. At bottom, there is laziness, inertness of mind. Ask a lot of kids and they will say "I hate to think" [!!!] They would rather be passively filled by other stimulations: eating, talking, looking, touching, singing to themselves, drumming fingers, etc.

I read somewhere once: 'Boredom is the springboard into eternity.' As my Zen Calendar said yesterday:

All of us are apprenticed to the same teacher - reality. It is as hard to get the children herded into the car pool and down the road to the bus as it is to chant sutras in the Buddha-hall on a cold morning. One is not better than the other, each can be quite boring; and they both have the virtuous quality of repetition. Repetition and its good results make the very activities of our life into the path.
- Gary Snyder


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4414133 - 07/17/05 08:39 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well, then you have a boring mind.

"Sorry about that Chief."
- Maxwell Smart


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OfflineKairoAnnunaki
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4414137 - 07/17/05 08:45 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Don't mind me, just my two cents.

I don't think you should call any religion bullshit. Especially if it's ancient. For all you know it's like someone could have taken a brick of the truth and smashed it up against a wall.

Why be so negate about it? Personally, then saying that one is bullshit. Rather then seek out why they all should be connected for a truth, outside of each individual religion.

The way "we" look at it, it's all possible.


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OfflineKairoAnnunaki
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KairoAnnunaki]
    #4414138 - 07/17/05 08:46 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You know what pisses "us" off though? About creationists who say evolution isn't real? How do they know god didn't create everything. With the purpose of it evolving.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KairoAnnunaki]
    #4414786 - 07/17/05 02:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yo- KairoAunnanaki. I see that you are a newbie. Note which one of us created this thread and click the reply button next to that person's name. You'll notice that MarkostheGnostic did not write that nonsense - I am a defender of true Christianity.

Peace Out.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4415120 - 07/17/05 04:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I grew up a devout Christian. I've debated Christianity to the point where my brain has become numb. Christs words do not provide my brain with much stimulus. Repetition can do that to a person. After reading a book, I find a new book to read. Reading the same book twice isn't very mentally stimulating.
I'd much rather learn about something new, like Hinduism or Buddhism, which I know all-to-little about.

Sorry, but your belief system does not interest me. And I'm sorry that dogmas being regurgitated causes me to become bored.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4415546 - 07/17/05 06:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You have no idea whatsoever what my beliefs are, since I've never imparted them to you. They do not belong to a "belief system" but are as unique as I am a unique human being. Uniqueness however is still built from universals, just like every snowflake is built from the same water molecules.

You were never a "devout Christian" or you would be a devout Christian even now. What you have been is the recipient of programming, and your programming has worn off. Never has your Center been 'converted' by Truth or you would be filled with Truth even now, and there's nothing jucier or more alive than Truth. GOD is Truth. If you can't find Truth within Christendom, you're sure-as-Hell not gonna find it ensconced in some other tradition. But, like Dorothy'd trip to Oz - you're maybe going to have to find out that it's never been further than your own back yard.

If all Christianity means to you is reading Bible passages, then by all means, get on with your Quest! Stop griping and get a move on 'cause you're wasting precious time! I was not raised with Christ, so when I found the Truth, I was knocked on my ass (or off my ass) like Saul of Tarsus, and a Great Light arose in my Heart never to have set again. It blazes still like the Sun at High Noon illuminating my being. I Know other faiths intimately and they have melded into my unique grasp of Truth. As to your own predicament - blame not THAT which you can never comprehend for the difficulties in your own mind.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4419093 - 07/18/05 03:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
You have no idea whatsoever what my beliefs are, since I've never imparted them to you. They do not belong to a "belief system" but are as unique as I am a unique human being. Uniqueness however is still built from universals, just like every snowflake is built from the same water molecules.




I ment Christianity in general, not your specific beliefs. My bad.

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
You were never a "devout Christian" or you would be a devout Christian even now.





Heh, like I haven't already heard that. :tongue: I feel I was a 'true' believer in Christianity. I prayed almost every day and could 'see God working in my life.' Went on missions trips, had profound spiritual experiences, and read a lot of the Bible too.

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I Know other faiths intimately and they have melded into my unique grasp of Truth.





What leads you to believe you have found any Truth?


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OfflineKairoAnnunaki
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4419569 - 07/18/05 05:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Oh yeah, sorry about that.

I am somewhat a true holder of Christianity. Not completely- but true enough in to I believe it in it's - well, purpose. I know it's the truth but then I am not to take all of it literally. Something as, "Knock on the door you shall receive", "And God Said let there be light".

I don't really believe he literally -spoke- it. I believe that he did much more than speak it. Something more powerful than speaking it. I think it was like.. an analogy maybe? Because it's text.. it's written by the human hand. And this is how we can only perceive it, right?

It is very possible that we evolved. But yet, that God is still there. Controlling the essence of every natural thing. And still, our human will is existent. Sure it may be a chemical function etc, but this is all programmed as if it were the Matrix as well!

I believe we evolved. I believe that the rib which was taken from Adam and given to Eve is a sign of evolution etc. Something .. SOMETHING. "And Cain went into the land of Nod and knew his wife". Really... really something.. something very deep which..

A brick of truth which was smashed up against the wall by human hands. Maybe. Or maybe we can only understand so much as to what God will allow us to see. We could have evolved. It is very possible. Science maybe have created the proof, with possible lies. But yet I still seek. No, I do believe God is there. But I also believe that evolution is also.

I use to say...

Without science, religion can't exist. Without religion science can not exist. They both depend on each other in one way or another, at times. Maybe not all the time. But because we are human, born into, yes, a sinful nature. We can only question. But then I have faith and hope still. But I will continue to question. Is my faith not good enough? I am suppose to seek God. But with positivity.

Christianity B.S.? I believe that if that is true. Then it is the human race which is B.S., because if such minds created such a book without the knowledge of a higher power... then we are B.S. and shouldn't accept nothing at all.

Rather that book itself states that we should seek.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4419638 - 07/18/05 05:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:

I Know other faiths intimately and they have melded into my unique grasp of Truth.




Attemtping to grasp at truth, is like trying to capture at space, its simply impossible, we need to let go, not increase our grapsing further Markos. Spiriutal ideas are not to be grasped at, like butter they will slip through your fingers.


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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4421210 - 07/19/05 12:01 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I've been alive long enough to develop some Wisdom, and the greatest Wisdom is Compassion. Compassion leads me to greater Wisdom, which is to say greater Compassion. Compassion has the most healing effect on life-forms from the insects that I routinely rescue from my pool, to the feral cats I've fed for years, to the human beings whom I try to serve compassionately in my profession. Such is Reality as I endeavor to experience it and Reality = Truth. BTW, one must be compassionate to oneself also, and to those who have hurt us (perhaps the greatest test of the depth of our Compassion).


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Sinbad]
    #4421286 - 07/19/05 12:13 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I rather like to think of Knowing other faiths by slipping into them, like into a hot bath. One does not want to get scalded by the intensity of something that appears to be warm and inviting but is in reality something that one is ill-prepared for. Like learning a foreign language, immersion in the thought-forms is the way. I am not attempting to 'grasp' some tenet intellectually. If I set out to Know a faith, then I must 'grok' it with all my heart, soul and might. I must become it, not possess it.

So, quite right - I am 'in' space, not trying to grasp space. I've been a space cadet all my life BTW. I wish I could show you a picture of my favorite space helmet from childhood :smile:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4422500 - 07/19/05 09:04 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I would love to see you in that helmet but I'm sure your head has outgrown it. :scaryshroom:

Just kidding Mark, I couldn't resist. :grin: I have much love for your big head and heart. :heart: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4422503 - 07/19/05 09:05 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I've been alive long enough to develop some Wisdom, and the greatest Wisdom is Compassion. Compassion leads me to greater Wisdom, which is to say greater Compassion. Compassion has the most healing effect on life-forms from the insects that I routinely rescue from my pool, to the feral cats I've fed for years, to the human beings whom I try to serve compassionately in my profession. Such is Reality as I endeavor to experience it and Reality = Truth. BTW, one must be compassionate to oneself also, and to those who have hurt us (perhaps the greatest test of the depth of our Compassion).




:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinemtw397
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: Icelander]
    #4429651 - 07/20/05 07:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i know seriously, i figured this out at 13, what the fuck is wrong with all these people.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: mtw397]
    #4429676 - 07/20/05 08:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

nobody is able to figure out anything at 13 and 90% of people can not firgure out anything all their lives


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineHoly Bud
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Re: why christianity is bullshit [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #14344618 - 04/24/11 07:50 PM (10 years, 7 months ago)

I hereby declare that King-of-the-Thing winner of this excahnge.


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