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Invisibledorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: dorkus]
    #3443109 - 12/03/04 05:03 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

In fact, doesn't everybody represent an archetypical animal at one level?

Isn't this what shamans call totem-animal (eh... totem-dyr in Norwegian, not sure if the direct translation is understandable?)

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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: dorkus]
    #3443121 - 12/03/04 05:09 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, I know Tyson's background but that doesn't really change my opinion of him. If you take a prince and put him in the 'hood he will still be noble. He clothing and outward apperance might change, and his character might lower somewhat due to the negativity surrounding him, but the bulk of his nature remains unchanged.

I'm not judging him because according to karmic law everyone is exactly where they've earned a right to be. Which is why you should never be jealous of anyone for any reason or look down upon them either.

I agree with you that most humans are not first timers though. Tyson is just a great example of one.


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Invisibledorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Jellric]
    #3443188 - 12/03/04 05:30 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

a zen story:

"The Emperor asked Master Gudo, "What happens to a man of enlightenment after death?"

"How should I know?" replied Gudo.

"Because you are a master," answered the Emperor.

"Yes sir," said Gudo, "but not a dead one." "

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Jellric]
    #3443191 - 12/03/04 05:31 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Come to think of it, at the same school site where the 'bully' guy worked, there was a heavyweight prize-fighter who fought twice on USA TV, and was some 4-5 fights away from Tyson had he won. He was another guy like Tyson, but not as pathologically violent (biting is a strong indicator for a good deal of pathology). He was not too bright, and then punchy too. He liked to boast about his huge penis - to women even who wouldn't be offended. He asked a friend of our's (a stripper turned English teacher) if SHE ever had her dick sucked by a toothless woman. SHE had to remind him that women didn't have dicks. There then was
this guy in the same location - a karmic thing - who behaved like a large mammal in a human form. Once I heard him moan on a phone call when he heard that he had yet another child - a 6 year old. He had 4 boys under his roof already, and they ALL had this man's first name!!! I don't know how many kids he sired. Maybe I'm projecting, but I'm reminded by a stallion rearing up on hind legs while 'boxing' with front hooves.

Last night I went to a zoning meeting, and I was in a room full of black-suited lawyers. I'm trying to get a fix on what I felt, but it was definately 'predatory' with humanized consciousness (I hesitate to say Human, because I define essential Humanity with the Tibetan seed syllable HUM - the Heart - Compassion).

The predicament of who acquires great wealth, of what beings are valued in the worldly mind: athletes and entertainers (redundant in the case of spectator sports), and those who profit from the misfortunes of others, whether lawyers or physicians (in direct contradiction to the Hippocratic Oath not to receive payment - but that's when healing was considered a Divine gift) illustrate the values of current civilization. Of course, big business makes the most - our addictions to gasoline, nicotine, or benzodiazepines. Mega-money and spiritual development cannot coexist. Money is power and power always corrupts. It inflates one's ego with self-importance. Does Tyson or Britney Spears do ANY good to our society? Not that I can discern. Does Madonna/Esther help or profane the spiritual traditions she espouses? The latter I think. Money can help one 'look' good til late in life, but only GOD determines how many days we have on the planet.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineFrog
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #3443416 - 12/03/04 06:41 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

FreakQlibrium said:
Excusez moi Frog but didn't you once say in a post that you believed in reincarnation?

If I am not wrong in my recollections, has this information you just posted affected your stance at all and made you change your position? Just curious :smile:




I know.  I used to not believe in reincarnation because I was raised the way Jiggy was raised.  (Catholic, Jig???)

Then I was investigating life over the last couple of years and came across information that showed me that reincarnation occurs.

But when I did the research after Jel started this thread, I mostly found these websites that said what I copied and posted above. 

So now I don't know.  But I agree with Markos that we can believe what we want.  And I as I said to fucknuckle, I think we can be Christians and still believe in reincarnation, even if it turns out we're wrong.  I don't think we're going to hell. 

I like the idea of reincarnation.  It fits well with karma. 

See, now all the constructs I have been developing have been blown to hell by those websites I found that denounced reincarnation.

I was trying to find a website that showed how reincarnation is consistent with what is written in the bible.  I had found something like that before, but not this time. 

What I copied and posted above seems to make sense, in a biblical sense, if one is forming one's beliefs based on the bible.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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OfflineFrog
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3443422 - 12/03/04 06:43 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

What you wrote makes sense, as usual, Markos, and hello!

:heart:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Frog]
    #3443443 - 12/03/04 06:51 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I like the idea of reincarnation. It fits well with karma


As do I, problem is though that according to my new found faith and accepting the Lord Jesus Christ into my life that what He says in the Bible totally goes against the notions of Karma and reincarnation. Please don't get me wrong: If it were up to ME karma and reincarnation would be realities and not concepts(not saying they are just that but only stating my own personal opinion)I am merely a student of life and don't pretend to know all the answers and can only formulate conclusions upon experiences i have had :smile:


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #3443465 - 12/03/04 06:59 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Back to the drawing board for me, eh?  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Frog]
    #3443490 - 12/03/04 07:09 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

And moi aussi :grin:


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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Offlinegnrm23
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Registered: 08/29/99
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #3443766 - 12/03/04 08:49 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

in nikos kazanzakis's wonderful (& "indexed"(literature forbidden to be read by roman catholics,& maybe eastern orthodox communicants) novel _the last temptation of christ_, jesus tells the story of the rich man in hell, unable to get a drop of water from the poor man in heaven... he is asked "rabbi, must the rich man stay in hell?" & he replies "no, god is merciful; after a time he returns to the world again."
(well, that's the gist of it, anyways; my book copy is ummmm somewhere(?)...)

(movie adaption directed/martin scorcese)

~~~~~~~~~~~~


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Frog]
    #3443814 - 12/03/04 09:05 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Who was the prophet Elias? I don't have my KJV here, but the line in John 1:21 where John the Baptist is supposed to have answered "no" to being asked if he was a reincarnation I have as being asked if he was Elias, not Elijah.

Frog, the article you posted does tend to lean against reincarnation, but no slam dunk in my mind at least. It seems like what we're coming down to is no strong case one way or another. The issue is never directly addressed so we are left to draw implications.

I suppose one possible reason why reincarnation is never directly addressed is because it was commonly accepted amongst the people of that time and so there was no need to argue for its existence.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Frog]
    #3443984 - 12/03/04 10:01 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

It seems evident that there were those who thought John or Jesus to be Elias/Elijah, reborn. The doctrine of transmigration is not taught BY Jesus in the canonical Bible, but the belief system was clearly in place. The Bible as we have it in its canonical form is going to perpetuate the highly suspect agenda of Constantine, who worshipped Sol Invictus - the Mithraic god of the Roman soldiers, and who was forced to make a deathbed conversion. The Bible in this sense is thoroughly the propaganda device of the power-wielding priesthood who constructed it under Constantine. This is not to say that it isn't a vehicle for spiritual Truth, but that the existent Bible has had great spiritual treasure excised from it.

Transmigration is a notion based on experiences that are far older than Judaism. The Middle East had numerous traditions that held to transmigration, especially Plato's philosophy. The Platonic and Neoplatonic elements of Catholicism are unmistakable even if the transmigration is only hinted at. Everything in the Bible is not plain. Nowhere does it speak of Jesus' Bar Mitzvah, but He doubtlessly had one if He truly was a son of Israel, if not the Jewish Messiah. His visit at age 12 to the Temple was not His Bar Mitzvah. It is implied by the whole gestalt of Jewish life. That Jesus may have been married isn't mentioned anywhere and the lone wandering Holy Man image was perpetuated. Unmarried Jewish men were not allowed to speak publically in the Temple - they were not 'complete' men til their sexual nature was lawfully manifest - yet Jesus was said to have spoken in the Temple often in the NT. So it is entirely possible that Jesus was married. Mary called Magdalene most likely (but no, the most important disciple doesn't get to be called an Apostle, and gets called a whore until the 1960's - because she's a woman!)

I do not understand why many or most professing Christians blink their eyes at the source of the canonical Bible. The attitude which holds that GOD formed the canon is entirely naive. Any seeker of Truth has to come to terms with the most profound failures of Bible interpretation, like the fact that Paul was totally wrong about the immanent Apocalypse and the return of Christ. We also have to come to terms with the Nag Hammadi discovery. All those books portray very divergent forms of Christianity. Does one love Truth, or merely tradition?


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #3444043 - 12/03/04 10:24 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

""Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same."    - Job 4:8

"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish by the sword."  - Matthew 26:52

"Therefore all things whatsover ye that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and prophets."  Matthew 7:12
Or did you think the above verse is merely about being nice to people so that the world would be a nicer :smile: place - a social gospel?

All the above, and there are others, reflect a certain LAWFULNESS. "...for this is the  law ..." It is spiritual cause and effect as much as there is physical cause and effect. It is unusual to see 'instant karma,' but spiritual things are transtemporal and do not necessarily occur in our linear time, let alone to our time-limited ego-perception. Hence, other lifetimes are alluded to -'even to the seventh generation,' reads a curse. Is GOD lawful, or does one read lawfulness through impersonal eyes? THAT is the choice.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Frog]
    #3444127 - 12/03/04 10:48 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe John didn't know he was Elias/Elijah (Why the different names?) in a past life, but evidently Jesus confirmed it. Forgive me for c&p'ing the following, but I think it's relevant and I'm pressed for time right now:
in Matthew, 11:13- 14; 16:13. Jesus is asking his disciples Whom do men say that I, the son of man, am, (Matt. 16:13) and the disciples answer Some say that thou art John the Baptist, some Elias and others Jeremiahs or one of the prophets. How could Jesus be thought to be any of these except in a past life? Elias and Jeremiahs lived centuries before. As for John the Baptist, since he had recently been put to death, there could not have been a reincarnation, but it seems that some people thought that his spirit could have inspired Jesus. If people could speak in this way they obviously took the doctrine for granted. That Jesus is actually asking the question shows he is aware of the doctrine of reincarnation and considers it valid.

Jesus himself tells his disciples who John the Baptist really was in the past:For all prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear let him hear. (Matt. 11:13-14)

So Elias, according to Jesus himself, came back to earth in the personality of John the Baptist. This is repeated or confirmed in Matt. 17:12: But I say unto you that Elias is come already and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the son of man suffer of them. 13. The disciples understood that he was speaking of John the Baptist.

The third reference comes as a question concerning a blind man. The disciples ask Jesus: Who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?" (John 9:2-3) How could a man sin before he was born, unless the sin was committed in another life? The apostles are not asking what kind of sin resulted in blindness, but *who* sinned, taking for granted that the act of sinning itself brought about this dire result.

Furthermore, the sin could have been committed either by the man in a previous existence, or by his parents. This implies both that the sins of the parents are visited upon the children, which is a biblical doctrine, and that the soul exists and therefore pays for the transgressions of previous lives.

Jesus does not rebuff the apostles for asking such a question. If the doctrine had been alien to his mind, he would have told them that they were talking nonsense. He simply takes a different attitude. His answer: Neither hath this man sinned nor his parents, but that the works of God should be made manifest in him, (John 9:3) implies that the doctrine of karma (and therefore its corollary, reincarnation) is not always understood rightly and that the calamities that befall humans should not necessarily be laid at its door.


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3444184 - 12/03/04 11:12 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

"Based on what I have read so far. I think 30% or more of the people on the planet would be born for the first time with out ever going through a Reincarnation. That would be an awful lot of people with Zero experience."
Humans exist in a temporal, material plane, time is a limiting construct for beings that live in four dimensions. IF there is a soul, might it exist in a realm that allows it to traverse time as easily as corporeal creatures traverse space? As you can go through a house and occupy different rooms in a non linear manner (going back and forth multiple times to the same rooms), might a soul occupy different times out of sequence (as seen from our perspective)? Why couldn't a soul be able to live separate lives that overlap in time?

If we can entertain models of the universe built with human characteristics which include jealousy, anger, vengefulness and an egomaniacal desire to be worshipped ("God"), I don't see why we should not entertain this idea.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3444210 - 12/03/04 11:23 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
I came across hundreds of doccumented cases of CHILDREN recalling past life memories and details that through research were varified to be as the children said they would be. The children had no way of knowing the things they did otherwise.






I saw a documentary on those children once. The children gave incredibly detailed descriptions of past lives, but when the details were examined and compared to what things were actually like in the time period, the childrens descriptions were way off. They only showed two or three kids whose descriptions were off and concluded all those other cases would be off too, so I wouldn't dismiss it yet.


--------------------
Put that monkey back in the oven.

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Invisibledorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3444947 - 12/04/04 06:44 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

If time is an illusion, every life happens NOW...?

The children knowing all those details don't actually PROVE reincarnation. They prove the existance of a collective consciousness, and the ability to tap into it.

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OfflineNomad
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Jellric]
    #3445512 - 12/04/04 11:26 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

The cosmological differences between the religions really aren't as big as they may seem.

In the west, the popular concept of reincarnation entails that, as a human, you are reborn as a human. I don't claim that this is wrong, but just note that it has absolutely no foundation in any religious tradition on the entire planet. Hinduism and Buddhism alike acknowledge the existance of different realms - higher and lower, heaven-like and hell-like. The western idea of rebirth seems to stem from an awkward combination of materialism and fear of death.

One major difference seems to be that Hinduism and Buddhism speak of a hierarchy of gods, while Christianity acknowledges just one (or three?). But there are other heavenly beings even to christians, and some of them might be quite powerful. Moreover, both Buddhism and Hinduism acknowledge Brahma as the Creator God, the Big Boss of the universe.

Another difference is the concept of an eternal afterlife. I have to admit that this just doesn't make sense to me. What are you going to do with eternity? Read books? The problem with eternity is that you will come to a point in time where you will only be able to read books with more than a trillion pages, because you have already read every possible combination of letters in books with less than a trillion pages. An eternity of heaven must be hell, indeed.

On the other hand, there really is no time limit to a life in samsara according to Buddhism and Hinduism. It will end, but it apparently can take a lot of time.

Sooooo... IF christians are willing to admit that an archangel qualifies as a kind of minor god, and IF buddhists admit that 84 zillion years is sort of like an eternity, we can actually shake hands on common cosmological grounds.











...and then bang each other's heads over the real differences, which lie in the path the religions suggest.

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OfflineNomad
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Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Nomad]
    #3445572 - 12/04/04 11:54 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

By the way, the anatta - concept, or the non-existance of a soul according to Buddhism, is not a cosmological difference to Christianity. It might be true according to Tibetan Buddhism, but from a traditional perspective, it is very clear that anatta is a difference in the path, not in cosmology. In fact, when he was asked about the existance of a soul from a cosmological perspective, the Buddha would resort to "noble silence" - he would refuse to answer questions of a cosmological and impractical nature (as opposed to questions of a cosmological and practical nature).

Edited by Nomad (12/05/04 11:47 AM)

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Reincarnation and Christianity [Re: Autonomous]
    #3445674 - 12/04/04 12:29 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Before I was given Godly wisdom and understood the things of God I could have easily entertained such ideas. But after God had shown himself to me. There is no point in talk of such theories. For Me anyways.

You must realize that unless you truly ask God to give you the wisdom and the knowledge to know the difference. Then you will never know the difference.

It is knowledge that is available to all


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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