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OfflineEgoTripping
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Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 180
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Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
    #3482239 - 12/11/04 05:27 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=315976

One of World's Leading Atheists Now Believes in God, More or Less, Based on Scientific Evidence

The Associated Press

NEW YORK Dec 9, 2004 ? A British philosophy professor who has been a leading champion of atheism for more than a half-century has changed his mind. He now believes in God more or less based on scientific evidence, and says so on a video released Thursday.

At age 81, after decades of insisting belief is a mistake, Antony Flew has concluded that some sort of intelligence or first cause must have created the universe. A super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature, Flew said in a telephone interview from England.

Flew said he's best labeled a deist like Thomas Jefferson, whose God was not actively involved in people's lives.

"I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins," he said. "It could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence and a purpose, I suppose."

Flew first made his mark with the 1950 article "Theology and Falsification," based on a paper for the Socratic Club, a weekly Oxford religious forum led by writer and Christian thinker C.S. Lewis.

Over the years, Flew proclaimed the lack of evidence for God while teaching at Oxford, Aberdeen, Keele, and Reading universities in Britain, in visits to numerous U.S. and Canadian campuses and in books, articles, lectures and debates.

There was no one moment of change but a gradual conclusion over recent months for Flew, a spry man who still does not believe in an afterlife.

Yet biologists' investigation of DNA "has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce (life), that intelligence must have been involved," Flew says in the new video, "Has Science Discovered God?"

The video draws from a New York discussion last May organized by author Roy Abraham Varghese's Institute for Metascientific Research in Garland, Texas. Participants were Flew; Varghese; Israeli physicist Gerald Schroeder, an Orthodox Jew; and Roman Catholic philosopher John Haldane of Scotland's University of St. Andrews.

The first hint of Flew's turn was a letter to the August-September issue of Britain's Philosophy Now magazine. "It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism," he wrote.

The letter commended arguments in Schroeder's "The Hidden Face of God" and "The Wonder of the World" by Varghese, an Eastern Rite Catholic layman.

This week, Flew finished writing the first formal account of his new outlook for the introduction to a new edition of his "God and Philosophy," scheduled for release next year by Prometheus Press.

Prometheus specializes in skeptical thought, but if his belief upsets people, well "that's too bad," Flew said. "My whole life has been guided by the principle of Plato's Socrates: Follow the evidence, wherever it leads."

Last week, Richard Carrier, a writer and Columbia University graduate student, posted new material based on correspondence with Flew on the atheistic www.infidels.org Web page. Carrier assured atheists that Flew accepts only a "minimal God" and believes in no afterlife.

Flew's "name and stature are big. Whenever you hear people talk about atheists, Flew always comes up," Carrier said. Still, when it comes to Flew's reversal, "apart from curiosity, I don't think it's like a big deal."

Flew told The Associated Press his current ideas have some similarity with American "intelligent design" theorists, who see evidence for a guiding force in the construction of the universe. He accepts Darwinian evolution but doubts it can explain the ultimate origins of life.

A Methodist minister's son, Flew became an atheist at 15.

Early in his career, he argued that no conceivable events could constitute proof against God for believers, so skeptics were right to wonder whether the concept of God meant anything at all.

Another landmark was his 1984 "The Presumption of Atheism," playing off the presumption of innocence in criminal law. Flew said the debate over God must begin by presuming atheism, putting the burden of proof on those arguing that God exists.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God [Re: EgoTripping]
    #3482244 - 12/11/04 05:28 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

People change their opinions daily. If I do no one even notices...why should this be signifigant?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleLetto
Load Universeinto Cannon. Aimat Brain. Fire.
Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 2,321
Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3482285 - 12/11/04 05:36 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Because ABC promotes Christianity, so of course they're going to play it for all they can get out of it. "Tisk Tisk, silly atheists."


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God [Re: EgoTripping]
    #3482295 - 12/11/04 05:39 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

1. All people are born atheistic.

2. The guy is old and nearer to facing the end than most. Churches are filled with the elderly.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleblink
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Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3482315 - 12/11/04 05:45 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
People change their opinions daily. If I do no one even notices...why should this be signifigant?




it's true, and like swami said, he's old and scared.

nobody should give a shit about this, it's about as important to me as him switching from Shout to Tide because he thinks it's better on whites.


--------------------


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God [Re: blink]
    #3482339 - 12/11/04 05:49 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Please explain why you think Shout is the superior product? (Gawd I love a good derailment! :wink:).


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineEgoTripping
journeyman
Registered: 05/01/04
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Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God [Re: Swami]
    #3482344 - 12/11/04 05:49 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
1. All people are born atheistic.





All people develop Atheism just as they develop Theism. All people are born Neutral.

Quote:

2. The guy is old and nearer to facing the end than most. Churches are filled with the elderly.




Since when does God = Church?


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Invisibleblink
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Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God [Re: Swami]
    #3482364 - 12/11/04 05:53 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Please explain why you think Shout is the superior product? (Gawd I love a good derailment! :wink:).




actually I agree with his decision in this case.

IME & IMHO, Tide is better on my skin because they offer a hypo-allergenic, environmentally "friendly" detergent as well as various other products that seem to do the job without an excess of lint and fuzzies (which dryers are notorious for making worse)

Shout is the detergent of fools


--------------------


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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God [Re: blink]
    #3482404 - 12/11/04 06:02 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Tide rulz...

remember the laundry day and keep thy socks holy, for god hath created the detergents to wash clean the stains of sin


--------------------
We got Nothing!
we're no longer selling jars.  :laugh:


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God [Re: blink]
    #3482432 - 12/11/04 06:09 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I prefer Shout, not the detergent but the action. Try this and see if it doesn't work:
'GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY CLOTHES YOU NASTY DIRT AND DO IT NOW!'  :tongue2:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God [Re: Swami]
    #3482449 - 12/11/04 06:16 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

This parallels the creationist blabber, "Darwin refuted evolution on his deathbed" (he didn't). "Oh ok, let's just throw out the piles of scientific evidence that supports it in favor of one man's dying words!"


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God [Re: EgoTripping]
    #3482450 - 12/11/04 06:17 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

1. Intelligent minds create complicated things.

2. Life is complicated.

3. Therefore life is created by an intelligent mind.

Seems kind of like a glaring logical fallacy to me. You'd think a "famous philosopher" would be able to avoid that kind of thinking.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God [Re: EgoTripping]
    #3482481 - 12/11/04 06:32 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

He accepts Darwinian evolution but doubts it can explain the ultimate origins of life.

I did not know that the origin of life was a part of evolutionary theory.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God [Re: Swami]
    #3482838 - 12/11/04 07:57 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
2. The guy is old and nearer to facing the end than most. Churches are filled with the elderly.




heyyy what do you know i believe with swami


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God [Re: fresh313]
    #3482878 - 12/11/04 08:07 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I would say everyone is born agnostic. Atheism or theism come later, when questioning starts, or more often - when conditioning begins :smile:

But yeah, this guy's opinion carries very little weight


--------------------



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OfflineEgoTripping
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Registered: 05/01/04
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Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God [Re: fresh313]
    #3482886 - 12/11/04 08:08 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Just recently, we've discovered something called the Zero Point Field (at least recently, there's been a lot more progress made).

""The fact that the zero-point field is the lowest energy state makes it unobservable. We see things by way of contrast. The eye works by letting light fall on the otherwise dark retina. But if the eye were filled with light, there would be no darkness to afford a contrast. The zero-point field is such a blinding light. Since it is everywhere, inside and outside of us, permeating every atom in our bodies, we are effectively blind to it. It blinds us to its presence. The world of light that we do see is all the rest of the light that is over and above the zero-point field."

In almost every major religion and/or Spiritual belief, isn't God often referred to has an ever-pervading Infinite Light that is impossible to percieve in the Physical?

"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (Ex. 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 Tim. 6:16)

(only quoting Bible for comparison reasons, not because I am Christian, I have no denomination.)

http://www.science-spirit.org/articles/Articledetail.cfm?article_ID=126

God = Light & Love.


Edited by EgoTripping (12/11/04 08:09 PM)


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OfflineEgoTripping
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Registered: 05/01/04
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Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God [Re: deff]
    #3482933 - 12/11/04 08:19 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
I would say everyone is born agnostic. Atheism or theism come later, when questioning starts, or more often - when conditioning begins :smile:

But yeah, this guy's opinion carries very little weight




Yah, that was an asinine comment to make.  How can someone be born Atheist?  Atheism states you know/truly believe there is no God, yet right after birth you know nothing at all.  You have to live life to lean to either side, just as no baby is born Racist.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God [Re: EgoTripping]
    #3482969 - 12/11/04 08:24 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

some might say knowing nothing is knowing everything

and that 'expanding' is really 'limiting'

but that's a different topic :cool:


--------------------



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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
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Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God [Re: EgoTripping]
    #3482972 - 12/11/04 08:25 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)


Yah, that was an asinine comment to make. How can someone be born Atheist? Atheism states you know/truly believe there is no God, yet right after birth you know nothing at all. You have to live life to lean to either side, just as no baby is born Racist.


Educate yourself on atheism, specifically the kind that Flew spoke about. Which, in a nutshell is the lack of a belief in god. When you are born, you lack a belief in god, therefore you are an atheist.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God [Re: Swami]
    #3483003 - 12/11/04 08:30 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

"Churches are filled with the elderly"

Will you be one of them?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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