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Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense
    #11609139 -

I am so sick of this tragic trend nowadays where people say things like

"There is no truth, we can never know anything"

"Everything is just our best guess, knowledge is impossible"

"You cannot be certain of anything"

The people who spout this nonsense are not real intellectuals, they are pseudo-intellectuals.

I always ask these people

"Are you sure you cannot be certain?"

"Is the world round or is it flat?"

"Is it true that things cannot be known"?

The concept of proof presupposes things in objective reality capable of being known and a mind capable of knowing it.

Don't try to pretend at being an intellectual by spouting nonsense that is opposed to the self-evident facts that reality exists and that you have a conciousness capable of knowing it.

Reason is not equal to faith, they are opposites. A guess is not equal to certainty, certainty IS possible and you know and have evidence of that in the both the technology and the conciousness you are using to read this damn post!

/end rant

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense *DELETED* [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11609214 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11609296 -

Tell me how it is tragic


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Jesus loves you.

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11609476 -

Quote:
The concept of proof presupposes things in objective reality capable of being known and a mind capable of knowing it.



The concept of proof presupposes things in objective reality capable of being observed and a mind capable of accurately comprehending it.

Quote:
Don't try to pretend at being an intellectual by spouting nonsense that is opposed to the self-evident facts that reality exists and that you have a consciousness capable of knowing it.


IMO this is absolutely screaming subjective opinion.

Quote:
"Reason is not equal to faith, they are opposites. A guess is not equal to certainty, certainty IS possible and you know and have evidence of that in the both the technology and the consciousness you are using to read this damn post!"



The "consciousness" I am using right now is perceiving that this is a very emotional and hastily executed thread, which utilises sweeping generalisations as arguments.
Which I find to counter the exact point of the thread itself.

:shrug:


--------------------
Goodbye Shroomery.

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: andrewss]
    #11609761 -

andrewss said:
Tell me how it is tragic


It is tragic becuase it is an outright evasion of reality. I find it particularly tragic that in to todays modern world, that was a result of the enlightenment, that these ideas that evade self-evident facts still actually taken seriously.

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11609968 -

Lakefingers said:
Take it easy. People have been saying since the beginning of history that there is no truth, we can never know anything, knowledge is impossible, you cannot be certain of anything.




Actually these ideas were going out of the window thanks to the enlightenment, but then along came Kant.

There is a reason why I get angry at the notion, but perhaps that reason flies right over your head? Shame, you would probably be right at home in a dark age where these ideas were prevalent, or Nazi Germany for that matter if you think that to have these ideas as prevalent in our culture is an OK thing.

Quote:
Since you find it "nonsense" please tell us why and demonstrate how they are not real intellectuals. And while you're at it, tell us what real intellectuals are. Let me guess, you are one?


"Are you sure you cannot be certain?"

"Is the world round or is it flat?"

"Is it true that things cannot be known"?

Why is it impossible to think that an intellectual can't question epistemological and metaphysical truths and the attainment of those truths? Let me guess, because by circular reasoning, if they do so they are not intellectuals.

Are there no limitations on certainty? What is certainty? How much 99% or 100% certainty to be certain?


To question the self-evident is ridiculous, that is why no person who is an intellectual would do so. An 'intellectual' who relies upon reason, facts and evidence for the formation and integration of concepts and debates in a rational manner thus.

Certainty is either/or. You are either certain, or you are not.

Edited by RationalEgo (12/08/09 03:06 PM)

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11610115 -

Quote:
"There is a reason why I get angry at the notion, but perhaps that reason flies right over your head. Shame, you would probably be right at home in a dark age where these ideas were prevalent, or Nazi Germany for that matter."


really? :what:

I am getting confused as to whether you think we should accept the general consensus (at the time) as the truth, or if you think we should question it.

Quote:
"To question the self-evident is ridiculous, that is why no person who is an intellectual would do so. An 'intellectual' who relies upon reason, facts and evidence for the formation and integration of concepts and debates in a rational manner thus.

Certainty is either/or. You are either certain, or you are not. "


The self evident consists merely as "what we know this far" or "what we presume is true because or x, y and z"  "What we have discovered in our own particular set of circumstances"

This is only until further evidence surfaces, where the process repeats.

I would ask again, what  is certainty? 99% 0r 100%?


--------------------
Goodbye Shroomery.

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: figmentfragment]
    #11610145 -

figmentfragment said:
99% 0r 100%?


If you want to talk about 100% Certainty it must be capitalized, because it is like having faith in God.

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11610305 -

RationalEgo said:
To question the self-evident is ridiculous, that is why no person who is an intellectual would do so.

I'm certain the intellectuals, in our past, who saw the world being flat as 'self-evident' would have agreed with your sentiments.
But was it rediculous for others to question this?

Just as a change in our circumstances has changed what was 'self-evident' with regards to our view of the Earth (from a flat earth to our concept of a round earth), what is to say another change in our future will not cause another shift in what is self-evident to us.

Not saying I don't believe the world is round- but to act as if what is self-evident now, was and always will be self-evident to us, seems more rediculous to me than continually, and rationally, questioning all of our 'knowledge', no matter how obvious its truth may be.


--------------------

Edited by shivas.wisdom (12/08/09 03:01 PM)

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11610312 -

RationalEgo said:
Don't try to pretend at being an intellectual by spouting nonsense that is opposed to the self-evident facts that reality exists and that you have a conciousness capable of knowing it.
A guess is not equal to certainty, certainty IS possible


I see what you are saying, but really the breadth of the matter is coming down to what meaning is being given to "knowing it" and "certainty", so if you could expand on a broader context for those, it'd be great. :wink:

My viewpoint would be expressed as follows: Its self-evident that reality exists, and that the nature of the brain and its abilities of collecting sensory information supplied by the sensory devices of the body, and of processing and utilizing this information, indicates that we're capable of 'knowing' it.
Knowing is referring to the ability to process this information, formulate an experience and a conceptual understanding of this information through this processing (who knows how/where the experience is being "projected" or is happening :nut:), and to subsequently make decisions as to how to continue to interact within this reality. The merit of this knowledge is judged through the lens of predictive value. Certainty is a irrelevant word in my viewpoint, as I see only predictive value, the ability to interpret the information we collect and to determine through our decisions on how to continue to interact with reality a model of reality that indicates accordance with reality.

Varying ranges of predictive value relative to our experience. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11610397 -

Give to Caesar that which is Caesars. If he want's more, he gets the finger.

Of course the Earth is round, but why do I like the color blue? Why are flowers pretty? From where comes such sweet melody? Is anything about life eternal? What is happiness?

When the absolute truth is unknown, decisions still get made. This is not a reason to never-mind (though in some cases, yes, it is). We exist inside it, or so it seems, but yea or nay is optional and perhaps detrimental if sanity is the goal.:wink:

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Struggle well?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11610455 -

Certainty is either/or. You are either certain, or you are not.

Gee sounds just like a fundy that is certain of god. But I think they are delusional. But they think they are not.

I'm going to think I'm right cause I "know" I'm not delusional and they are. They are going to think I'm wrong cause I'm delusional an they are not.

But ultimately I don't know. Just as insane people often don't know if they are seeing reality or not.

For all you know you're strapped down on a gurney in some asylum drooling on yourself dreaming all this shit up. Cause you aren't the totally conscious and totally aware creator.

Having said that I take my best guess on what I believe to be sound logic and go with it. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: Icelander]
    #11610472 -

Well, certainty is not based upon 'feelings', it is based upon facts (which implies evidence) in reality and a reasoning mind capable of observing and integrating that knowledge. So there goes your 'faith' example right out of the proverbial window.

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11610483 -

But if you are delusional and don't know it your "facts" are skewed.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: Icelander]
    #11610498 -

Icelander said:
But if you are delusional and don't know it your "facts" are skewed.


There is a little something called 'proof'.

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11610515 -

As in my example of one such as yourself tied down on a gurney having an imaginary debate on a forum all your proofs are likely to be skewed. Basically because you are very insane, something you aren't even aware of.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: Icelander]
    #11610543 -

That's a claim that requires proof. I know that I am not in that situation.

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11610546 -

:rofl2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: Icelander]
    #11610702 -

:shakefist:

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11610715 -

How do you know that you are not in that situation? If you are insane your claims would be meaningless.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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