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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
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Re: Catholic church, rock of stability and love! [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #505848 - 12/31/01 09:37 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

dr luther was professor of bible at wittenburg... he did not "cut out" the apocryphal books, merely placed them between the "old" testament and the "new" testament... (the "apocryphal" means hidden -- there were no indiications of hebrew vesions of those scriptures...
the evangeliical church (lutheranism) also taught the priesthood of all believers... and salvation by grace, not by works...
as to simon peter, it has been suggested that he was nicknamed for "pebble" because his wavering strength of faith...
as to mary being "queen of heaven" and "mother of god" well, the people wanted their goddesses back.. and if all they got was a perpetual virgin, well, that is due to scriptural misinterpretation...
ummmm, if anybody is interested in an exploration of the problems of literalism as regards scripture, check out bishop spong's _rescuing the bible from fundamentalism_
(it's a pity that rapid communction was not available during luther's time --- because he was interested in working out some sort of understanding with the eastern churches, after his split with rome..)

old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 13,104
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Re: Catholic church, rock of stability and love! [Re: MAIA]
    #505957 - 12/31/01 11:52 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

For clarificqation purposes I'll try to explain a little more. The word 'peter' translates to 'rock'. Jesus changed Simon's name to 'rock' and said on this rock I'll build my church. Peter's actual name is 'rock'.

Here's a bit about papal authority from: http://www.ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp?source=/ewtn/experts/conference.htm

Papal Primacy


The doctrine of papal primacy upholds the divine authority of the Successor of St. Peter to rule over the entire Church with ordinary and immediate jurisdiction. Two Magisterial texts are key to understanding its supreme nature and the obligation of all who are not invincibly ignorant of this truth to submit to Papal authority for the sake of their salvation.
Pope Boniface VIII, in his Bull Unam Sanctum (1302), spelled out the doctrine of the necessity of the Church for salvation and with it the necessity of submission to the Roman Pontiff. Regarding the primacy of authority of Peter and his successors he stated:

But this authority, although it is given to man and is exercised by man, is not human, but rather divine, and has been given by the divine Word to Peter himself and to his successors in him, whom the Lord acknowledged an established rock, when he said to Peter himself: Whatsoever you shall bind etc. [Matt. 16:19]. Therefore, whosoever resists this power so ordained by God, resists the order of God [cf. Rom. 13:2] ... Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.

As with all principles of morality, God does not hold the invincibly ignorant of the truth culpable for failing to live by them. Thus, Pope Pius IX could say regarding the salvation of those outside the Church, and thus also those who do not submit to the Roman Pontiff,

We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?

This same Pope convened the First Vatican Council, which in addition to defining papal infallibility also defined papal primacy. Both doctrines point the faithful to the necessity of union with the Successor of Peter. Infallibility directs our attention to the unifying role of the Pope in matters of faith, and primacy to that role with respect to sacramental and other ecclesiastical disciplines.

...all the faithful of Christ must believe "that the Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold primacy over the whole world, and that the Pontiff of Rome himself is the successor of the blessed Peter, the chief of the apostles, and is the true vicar of Christ and head of the whole Church and faith, and teacher of all Christians; and that to him was handed down in blessed Peter, by our Lord Jesus Christ, full power to feed, rule, and guide the universal Church, just as is also contained in the records of the ecumenical Councils and in the sacred canons.

... the faithful of whatever rite and dignity, both as separate individuals and all together, are bound by a duty of hierarchical submission and true obedience, not only in things pertaining to faith and morals, but also in those which pertain to the discipline and government of the Church spread over the whole world, so that the Church of Christ, protected not only by the Roman Pontiff, but by the unity of communion as well as of the profession of the same faith is one flock under the one highest shepherd. This is the doctrine of Catholic truth from which no one can deviate and keep his faith and salvation... [Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Vatican Council I, 1870]


Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL

"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
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Re: Catholic church, rock of stability and love! [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #506473 - 01/01/02 07:25 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

"Dogmatic Constitution on the Church"

Are this the ones you put your faith on ? Is this your tabernacle of knowlodge ?

Look, i think we deviate a little on how the way we see our bound with above. I just don't get why people believe so much in the institution rather believing and trying to find the nature of god. If you believe so deeply in your church follow its teachings and dogmas, your free to, but believe me there's much more to know from Christ teachings than the catholic dogmatic way to interpert things.


Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala

Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.

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whore consumer
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Folding@home Statistics
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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #506503 - 01/01/02 08:29 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

In Tampa/St. Pete, the catholic church wants to tear down an old historic cathedral (instead of just renovating it) so they can build a 8 MILLION dollar Super-Cathomart. It seems like they feel a little insecure about their teachings so they gotta make up for it with flashy buildings and promises of eternity in heaven for just 10%.
I don't think man can come close to grasping the concept of God, and I know organized religion (esp. catholism) isn't any more in the right direction.

If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.

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Registered: 08/01/01
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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: ]
    #508827 - 01/03/02 07:32 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

shroomism: i want to see some historical references to your claim that jesus taught reincarnation (i don't consider "the aquarian gospel" a source), i don't belief it is correct.
And even if jesus taught everything you think he did and the church misrepresented everything... it still doesn't matter: going 'outside' can be a way too... surrender yourself to god, jesus: voila.

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Registered: 12/07/01
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Loc: Being
Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: alphatrion]
    #508894 - 01/03/02 09:18 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Good luck Shroomism says alot of nice things but I need proof to beleive and thats one thing he never offers, I know not everything is provable(not even close) and understand that, but things like Jesus taught reincarnation and meditation, what did he dream that? there should be some sort of proof, where is it?

Ours is not a better way, ours is merely another way.

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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: PsilocyberSpace]
    #508896 - 01/03/02 09:24 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

It was in the Bible. It's not anymore. The proof is gone...ask the Catholics. I'll try to find proof of this statement but I doubt I will find it. Perhaps in a book somewhere...
Anyways, who cares what I think?
Just believe what the Church tells you

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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: PsilocyberSpace]
    #508901 - 01/03/02 09:27 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Anyways, proof is overrated.
Prove to me that we exist, then we'll talk.

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Registered: 12/07/01
Posts: 623
Loc: Being
Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: ]
    #508905 - 01/03/02 09:36 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Easy man, I'm on your side, I don't find truth in the bible or any church and I'm not waiting for Christ to be born next door or anything.

I would love for it to be true, and it surely could be, I may have came off wrong there, but, I would just love to have something material to prove this, soemthing to toss in the face of people like rail_gun. To me personally I know reincarnation is truth and meditation well anyone who practices knows how well that is.

Ours is not a better way, ours is merely another way.

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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 268
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: ]
    #509005 - 01/03/02 11:12 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Exactly, proof is erelevant. Prove that we are even here at all.
Interesting thing though, I watched a documentary last night where a scientist at, oh shit I cant remember what school, but anyway he proved that what he called "consciousness survival", he proved that the consciousness survives death. I cant tell you all that he said because it would take to long. But he proved that your "soul" survives death and is "re-absorbed" in to, what he called some sort of "energy cycle". The proof is in the pudding. Although I ran it by some members of my family, and they simple said "alright they finally proved the existance of satan". I dont know, its kind useless talking to closed minded brainwashed christians, in they're defence they are almost comical in a way. I think finally modern science will catch up with ancient philosophies, Im so glad.

" I have decided to become an example for others, although I have never been one for moderation. I have decided never to eat LSD while asleep, never to refrain while awake, and to never eat less than 10 hits at a time."

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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: ArchDruid]
    #509272 - 01/04/02 03:20 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Me too :laugh:

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Registered: 12/19/01
Posts: 261
Loc: Illinois
Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: ]
    #509504 - 01/04/02 06:43 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Every religion at one point in time has used violence to further their view or to disipline their members. Yet "GOD - Yawey - Ala (my spelling is poor - I know) or whatever you call the "Supreme Being" says basically PLAY NICE!!! I don't understand. Could it be that organized religion is the Anti Christ. Islam is mad at Christianity, The English and Irish are fighting, the Jews are fighting Islam. Where are the religions following GOD's first law - Play Nice. I think maybe I'll just talk to my best friend - the Spirit inside me and whoever put it there.

Please PLAY NICE!!!!!



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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: Jammer]
    #509780 - 01/04/02 11:50 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

ALL religions are bs. How could anyone back then and even now know the ways of the universe. Devout christians piss me off, they are stubborn against any other beliefs. Also the reason they have a heap of jesus songs is because to sing you have to memorise the words "jesus is good"...... Simple Brainwashing. BTW i think i might be god

Edited by WaktSniper (01/04/02 11:54 AM)

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