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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: ]
    #504853 - 12/30/01 02:03 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Strange how the Catholic religion is the wealthiest (moneywise) entity in the world.

It should be, it's been around for 2000 years and during that time has become among the largest religions on earth. During 2000 years of history the church has had innumerable wealthy and royal patrons who contributed fortunes, estates, and chattles... If You were around for 2000 years you might acquire a tidy amount yourself...

Take care


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Anonymous

Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #504861 - 12/30/01 02:07 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Yep..gotta have those padded seats and 12 car garage.

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OfflineKeepAskingTime
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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #504865 - 12/30/01 02:08 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Why are Catholic statues any different from, say, a golden statue of a cow wearing a sombrero? You can not [scientifically] prove that God, Jesus, Virgin Mary exists and you cannot prove that the Mexican Sacred Sombero-wearing Gold Cow doesn't exist. They all have equal right to be in the Catholic church, and all are on the same wavelength. If I want to worship the Mexican Sacred Sombero-wearing Gold Cow, then you can worship the Virgin Mary, Jesus, God, Ernest P. Wurl, or whoever. It is all the same to the 2nd commandment.
Chicken scratch or no chicken scratch, it's still just a piece of plastic [or rock, or a painting, etc. etc.].


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I'm praying for infinite lapdances in heaven and an infinite supply of cocaine to snort out of Angelina Jolie's ass crack.

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OfflineArchDruid
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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: KeepAskingTime]
    #505101 - 12/30/01 05:46 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

RAIL_GUN - I hate to be the one to tell you this, although I admire you and your defence of the in-defencable, you have been brain washed brother. SHROOMISM brought up a good point, the wealthiest entity. You say good to this, while people all over the world are starving, yes indeedy you need those padded seats and gold inlays and stain glass windows, etc. You know the catholic church also kept out of our moder bibles the apocrphy(sp?), in it the gospal of saint thomas(doubting thomas) says something like "Lift a stone and I am there, split a peice of wood and you shall find me" I may have gotten it wrong, but the point is that if it were included in the currently distributed bible the catholic church would be seen as uneeded. Churches are uneeded. Especially the extravagant catholic ones, do you think god cares if his church is made of gold or straw? While his poeple go hungry and die? "My father consitered a walk among the mountains the equivelant of church going", I cant remember who said that, but its true.
My research is not taken out of context, your is. "Go and do likewise", talk about taking things litteraly and out of context. I can understand why you are so defencive, it would mean that your entire belief system was based on the one entity you are taught to hate, satan.
I would listen sooner to MAIA than anyother here about this including me. He seems to be sincere in his credentials.


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" I have decided to become an example for others, although I have never been one for moderation. I have decided never to eat LSD while asleep, never to refrain while awake, and to never eat less than 10 hits at a time."

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OfflineEllis Dee
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olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: ArchDruid]
    #505124 - 12/30/01 06:11 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Arch-Druid, have you ever really read the "Gospel of St. Thomas"? I have, I borrowed it from the library. It has stories in it which are pretty contrary to the nature we know of Jesus. In one story Jesus was a child and another child was angry at him and tried to strike him, and his arm withered away... In another story Jesus is playing with mud and clay and forms it in to birds, throws them up in the air and they become real birds and fly away... The stories in Thomas seem out of chracter for the participants. It's not a legitamate part of the scriptures because it's not the inspired word of God.

If the catholic church were to give all her wealth to the poor it would be a mere temperary boon to them. As it is now it's a permanent help to the faithful and brings us joy when we see it, and all the stained glass windows. My parish I go to now has the best stained glass which I've ever seen, I love it. It's so beautiful and couldn't be recreated if it were to be damaged because it was made with processes involving mercury that are now illegal. What long term good would it do to remove these great works of art, sell them and board up the windows? I thiink it would do harm in the long run!

Now, when people talk about the wealth and supposed hypocracy of the church they often talk of one or two aspects of the church while conveniently forgeting about others. Have you ever heard of the Franciscans? It's a holy order and a way of life for a tremendous amount of catholics. The brothers own nothing, live in poverty, dedicating their lives to serving the poor, and teaching simply as Christ did.

What a lot of people want to forget about is the rich traditions of the catholic church. The church is ancient, 2000 years old. In that time we've formed valuable traditions which aid us in becoming closer to God. In that time the church has grown from seed to encompass the world. It accomidates the cultures of all different races and people. The catholic church accomidates all sorts of people and doesn't discriminate as some people would have us do. The catholic church is truely the universal church.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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OfflineArchDruid
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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #505150 - 12/30/01 06:41 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Yes I have read it, I believe that it should be believed over the others, because of his own skeptism. How do you knoe its not the inspired work of god, for that matter how do you know any of it is the inspired work of god, faith.
The short term releif of millions is better than no releif at all, not to mention that the continued flow of wealth could be ginev as well. I do not suggest you lose those works of art in the least, they are pressious to even me who has no faith in your faith. But they should not have been bought in the first place, it is glutinos and steeped in vanity.
Truely the universal church, ideed such as it was written that "all would follow after him", and they do. I may be mistaken but I believe that the catholic faith is the largest in the world.
And another thing, how can you become closer to god if you are not even encouraged to speak DIRECTLY TO HIM.


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" I have decided to become an example for others, although I have never been one for moderation. I have decided never to eat LSD while asleep, never to refrain while awake, and to never eat less than 10 hits at a time."

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: ArchDruid]
    #505161 - 12/30/01 06:49 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Arch-Druid, it should be noted that although "The gospel of St. Thomas" has St. Thomas's name on it there is historical evidenc that St. Thomas did not write it. Do you still think that 2nd hand rumors should be included in the canon of a religion you don't even believe in?

BTW, we do pray directly to God.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Edited by Ellis Dee (12/30/01 06:51 PM)

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OfflineArchDruid
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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #505165 - 12/30/01 06:54 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Pray to him maybe, but confess and are forgiven by others.
not by god, or seemingly in his authority.


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" I have decided to become an example for others, although I have never been one for moderation. I have decided never to eat LSD while asleep, never to refrain while awake, and to never eat less than 10 hits at a time."

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OfflineArchDruid
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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: ArchDruid]
    #505167 - 12/30/01 06:57 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

and another thing, about the whole mother of god thing. Jesus said himself "woman, what have I to do with the", Mary has nothing to do with it, otherwise she would not have had to worship her own son. She was merely the vessel. And yet you boy and revere her, the catholic church has many excuses for the worshiping or "reverance" of Idols.


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" I have decided to become an example for others, although I have never been one for moderation. I have decided never to eat LSD while asleep, never to refrain while awake, and to never eat less than 10 hits at a time."

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: ArchDruid]
    #505185 - 12/30/01 07:13 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Ah, the old why ask a priest to forgive your sins argument... Check out John chapter 20:19-23. In John 19:23 Jesus instructs his diciples to forgive peoples sins with his authority by instructing his diciples, "Who's sins you forgive are forgiven and who's sins you retain are retained." In the sacrament of penance (confession) the priest acts in 'persona Christi', in the place of Christ to forgive sins. So God is forgiving sins through the priest's say so just as he instructed his diciples to do. This is the way God intended.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Catholic church, rock of stability and love! [Re: ArchDruid]
    #505193 - 12/30/01 07:18 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

and another thing, about the whole mother of god thing. Jesus said himself "woman, what have I to do with the", Mary has nothing to do with it, otherwise she would not have had to worship her own son. She was merely the vessel. And yet you boy and revere her, the catholic church has many excuses for the worshiping or "reverance" of Idols.
Hmm, ok. What does Jesus have to do with his mother? For one thing she gave birth to him... She was always loyal to him and followed him, even to the foot of the cross when all the diciples abandoned him. Jesus loved his mom and so do we!


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Anonymous

Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #505256 - 12/30/01 08:10 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

My problem with the Catholic Church is their changing of the document known as the Bible. In 1600, certain high ranking officials of the Church got together and edited, cut, and added to the Bible. This wasn't the first time this happened either.
Some facts to clear up:
Jesus taught meditation and reincarnation, which I'm sure you haven't heard about because they took that out of the Bible.
After all...where would the Church fit in if people knew they could solve their own problems?
Of course, the Church took this the opposite direction and instead of teaching meditation (going within as a form of prayer...seeking the answers within, the God within) They taught asking an outside source for help, which is, essentially, the polar opposite of meditation.

God is in all people, not just priests.
You don't need to go to mass to get a chance to see him
Contrary to popular belief, God really does not need that much money.

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Anonymous

Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: ArchDruid]
    #505261 - 12/30/01 08:14 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I say...what is this "collection plate"?

"They pass it around in Church to collect people's money"

"But why do they need money?"

"Haven't you read the Bible man? It says you must give a 10% tithe of your income to the Church"

"God said that?"

"Uhh, I think so, its in the Bible"



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Anonymous

Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: KeepAskingTime]
    #505265 - 12/30/01 08:18 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Who is the pope anyway? And why is he the pope? Is it for distraction purposes?
Why does he get transported down the street in a bulletproof glass box? Does he have enemies? How did that happen?
Why is the pope the pope? What did he do that makes him special?

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OfflineArchDruid
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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: ]
    #505282 - 12/30/01 08:38 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I was not going to argue the point any more. Thank you SHROOMISM - you did it in my absence probebly far better than I could have.
I apologise to those I offended by posting this thread, although it did bring to light alot that I didnt know ,which is always welcome. RAIL_GUN - well, some people you just cant reach.


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" I have decided to become an example for others, although I have never been one for moderation. I have decided never to eat LSD while asleep, never to refrain while awake, and to never eat less than 10 hits at a time."

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Catholic church, rock of stability and love! [Re: ]
    #505291 - 12/30/01 08:44 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

My problem with the Catholic Church is their changing of the document known as the Bible. In 1600, certain high ranking officials of the Church got together and edited, cut, and added to the Bible. This wasn't the first time this happened either.
Some facts to clear up:
Jesus taught meditation and reincarnation, which I'm sure you haven't heard about because they took that out of the Bible.


Do you have any documentation whatsoever for that rediculous claim? I'm sure you don't because it's a blatent lie. There are authentic 'catholic versions' of the bible dating back hundreads and hundreads of years before the 15th century. The Latin Vulgate of St. Jerome has been declared to be correct and it was written/translated in 405 AD and has not changed to this day. This had been declared authoritative for Catholics by the Council of Trent in 1545 and they did not alter it in any way, simply declare officially that it is correct. That about the catholic heirarchy editing out reincarnation and meditation is a lie. Some of the early eccumenical councils condemned such heresys spread by easterners even prior to 300 AD I believe... The Bible is essentially the same now as it was when the canan was decided. Only thing different is the languages it's been translated to, hundreads of them. Martin Luther cut a lot out of the protestant versions, the books of maccabees and sarach come to mind...

And the deal with the Pope being in charge, that's called apostolic succession. Our present pope is a direct successor of our first pope, St. Peter. Check out mathew 16:19 for the explaination of God giving power to the pope to bind things on earth and they being bound in heaven, loosed on earth, loosed in heaven. The pope has the keys to the kingdom and he uses them when he feels like it.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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OfflineArchDruid
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Re: Catholic church, rock of stability and love! [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #505310 - 12/30/01 09:04 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I just read that verse, and my interpretation is the same as all but CATHOLICS. That it gives that right to ALL christians.


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" I have decided to become an example for others, although I have never been one for moderation. I have decided never to eat LSD while asleep, never to refrain while awake, and to never eat less than 10 hits at a time."

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Catholic church, rock of stability and love! [Re: ArchDruid]
    #505319 - 12/30/01 09:10 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I just read that verse, and my interpretation is the same as all but CATHOLICS. That it gives that right to ALL christians.

Read it in context. Even in the new testament when there's disagreement among the apostles St. Peter settles it. The argument among the apostles as to whether or not gentiles first having to be circumcized as jews before they could become christians comes immediatly to mind, and then the dietary law controversy... It was a big controversy and St. Peter settled it. The pope is the modern day successor to St Peter and has the same authority God gave to St. Peter.

And how on earth do you interpret Jesus saying "Peter you are rock and upon this rock I shall build my church," to mean everyone, it's explicit in that Peter is rock.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Edited by Ellis Dee (12/30/01 09:14 PM)

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OfflineKeepAskingTime
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Re: Catholic church, rock of stability and love! [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #505439 - 12/30/01 11:04 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, Peter is rock-hard, for Catholicism.

/me snickers like a little church boy


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I'm praying for infinite lapdances in heaven and an infinite supply of cocaine to snort out of Angelina Jolie's ass crack.

Edited by KeepAskingTime (12/30/01 11:11 PM)

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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Catholic church, rock of stability and love! [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #505677 - 12/31/01 04:31 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Matthew 16:18
"And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."
Where's explicit ? Matthew says "ON this rock", not Peter being the rock and that "I (Jesus, not Peter) will build my church".... does not say when ?
Also i know Peter has an equal meanning as (petra) rock, but why in Mattheus he doesn't "on you" but "on this rock" ?

Matthew 16:19
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Where does it say the key will go to its successor ?

Matthew 16
:22
Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"
:23
Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Jesus forsaw the risk of "the things of man" and treated Peter as a "stumbling block" and not a firm fundation for its church revelead as "this rock". To me "this rock" are all of us in union. The sand scatered in the beach is blowned away by the wind, it represents the weakness of the individual, alone we are at winds desire, if the sand could bound and unite it will be a rock, the rock is the union of many, the rock is heavy and the wind can't blow it away and it's the place we are all togheter. The curch should be founded on our union, i think it means much more than a rock representing a building.

Peace,
MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

Edited by MAIA (12/31/01 04:38 AM)

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