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 Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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 Re: truth?  [Re: Nomad]
#632646 - 05/16/02 05:48 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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When I first experienced ego-loss, I decided that the assumption that my outer layers of skin are where "Me" ends and "The Universe" begins, is a very, very arbitrary one.
I have to challenge you on this one.
Webster - arbitrary:
based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something.
Where our skin ends seems to be a fairly universal constraint of what "we" are and is certainly intrinsic to the human body.
You buy clothes to fit YOUR BODY. You are concerned with YOUR appearance, ideas, sexual attraction, possessions, health, wealth, etc.
When someone close to you dies, you do NOT feel anything until you are made aware of it at some later time. It is not simultaneous. You do NOT feel what the other felt, only the emotional impact that it will have on your future which are mostly selfish feelings of loss. Your body is certainly unharmed by their injury or demise. You sensed nothing about 911 NYC until you flipped on the TV. If there was no news you would be totally unaware.
This speaks of our awareness ending at the senses of our body. Now we may be dependent on 100,000 other people to build our car, grow and ship our food, etc., but dependency and oneness are entirely different concepts.
Yet I think that a lot of pain could be spared if we would just stop arguing...
If we are all one, who is arguing with whom?
On a side note, arguing (frequently and incorrectly misconstrued as bickering) is an accepted part of philosophical debate. To deny that aspect is ignorance. (Can't we do math WITHOUT numbers?)
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The proof is in the pudding.
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 Epignostic
Stranger
Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 6
Loc: Ramona, CA
Last seen: 22 years, 6 months
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Re: truth? [Re: Nomad]
#632720 - 05/16/02 07:02 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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[image]http://heritage.stsci.edu/2001/05/big.html[/image]
Had to put this one!
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Simple cries pleasantly plea for a friendly follower as wisely whispers request to reveal the water's wandering
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Epignostic
Stranger
Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 6
Loc: Ramona, CA
Last seen: 22 years, 6 months
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A little too big, I guess?
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Simple cries pleasantly plea for a friendly follower as wisely whispers request to reveal the water's wandering
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hongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 20 years, 7 months
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The jokes roll forth [Re: Swami]
#632863 - 05/16/02 08:38 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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I love it. Swami is taking issue with ambiguous terminology. Ha!
Maybe Nomad has a "particular" definition of ambiguous in mind. Surely you can't object to that! At least Nomad's is a little more apparent from the context.
hongomon
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Nomad
Mad Robot
Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
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Re: truth? [Re: Swami]
#632922 - 05/16/02 09:18 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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Webster - arbitrary: based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something.
Where our skin ends seems to be a fairly universal constraint of what "we" are and is certainly intrinsic to the human body.
To define yourself as the part of the universe within your skin is determined by individual preference (it's a definition), by convenience (it makes buying clothes easier), not by necessity (you won't die if you don't), and, finally, not by the intrinsic nature of the human body, because the intrinsic nature of the human body would be everything we can experience with this body, including ego-loss. It's arbitrary. It can be a very useful thing to do, but it's arbitrary.
You are concerned with YOUR appearance, ideas, sexual attraction, possessions, health, wealth, etc.
I'm not concerned with at least three of the things you listed above, but I won't tell you which ones 
When someone close to you dies, you do NOT feel anything until you are made aware of it at some later time. It is not simultaneous.
I never claimed it is. In another post (now lost forever) I designed a simple universe which consists of you and a tree. If you take the tree away, the effect is exactly the same as if you destroy parts of your brain. Thus, I claim that the tree is part of your consciousness, a part of what makes "you". If you kill the tree, you kill a part of yourself. The very fact that you feel pain when someone else dies seems to strengthen this idea.
This speaks of our awareness ending at the senses of our body. Now we may be dependent on 100,000 other people to build our car, grow and ship our food, etc., but dependency and oneness are entirely different concepts.
I agree, but so are awareness and consciousness. I didn't claim that I'm aware of everything in the universe. But since I'm also not aware of most things that happen in my subconscious brain, the universe can still be a part of myself, even if I am not aware of everything which happens inside it.
If we are all one, who is arguing with whom?
A zen master sat quietly fanning himself with air. A disciple came along and asked, "Master, if the wind is eternal and everywhere, why are you still fanning yourself?" The master replied: "You do well understand that the wind is eternal, but you have yet to grasp the fact that it is everywhere."
On a side note, arguing (frequently and incorrectly misconstrued as bickering) is an accepted part of philosophical debate. To deny that aspect is ignorance.
Which, I assume, was related to the quote above:
Yet I think that a lot of pain could be spared if we would just stop arguing...
I admire your cleverness, but it's still a misquote (but a clever one, indeed). What follows is: ... stop arguing which is the true model of the universe.
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Nomad
Mad Robot
Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
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html won't work
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: truth? [Re: Nomad]
#633050 - 05/16/02 10:46 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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The very fact that you feel pain when someone else dies seems to strengthen this idea [of oneness].
Not at all. There is no pain felt upon the death of another; only on the idea of their death. This is an important distinction.
My ENRON stock goes under and I can no longer buy my new 500HP Dodge Viper, so I feel pain. Pain is merely a refusal to accept "what is"; it is hardly an indicator of oneness.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: The jokes roll forth [Re: hongomon]
#633061 - 05/16/02 10:52 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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I love it. Swami is taking issue with ambiguous terminology. Ha!
I love it. hongomon is trying to enter a gunfight with blanks.
hongoman has a serious reading disability in that he cannot tell the difference between "arbitrary" and "ambiguous".
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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Re: The jokes roll forth [Re: Swami]
#633085 - 05/16/02 11:17 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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hongoman has a serious reading disability
Tell me about it...
Hongo- I'm not trying to pick on you if have a diagnosed learning disability. So, please, let us know if you do have a handicap (I mean this in an extremely polite way).
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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hongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 20 years, 7 months
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Re: The jokes roll forth [Re: Swami]
#633212 - 05/16/02 12:49 PM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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Arrgh! Well, at least it's nice to know that even when I put one word--ambiguous--when another--arbitrary--is intended, my meaning is not lost in ambiguity.
I could challenge your definition of "serious reading disability," (for a malapropism??) but why bother?
Furthermore, Nomad has shown very well that he was not arbitrary in his selection of "arbitrary."
hongomon
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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Re: The jokes roll forth [Re: hongomon]
#633278 - 05/16/02 02:00 PM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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I could challenge your definition of "serious reading disability," (for a malapropism??) but why bother?
Doubtful.
But hey, if you get a kick out of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, then by all means....
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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hongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 20 years, 7 months
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Question sclurchster [Re: Sclorch]
#633652 - 05/16/02 07:20 PM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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Who the fuck are you anyway? Swami's little sidekick? The Sancho to the Don? I've been reading back into the archives here and I've noticed a pattern.
Well, ya got me. It took me a while to realize that Swami the cake contaminant, the dude my issues are with, is in the john or something, and the little yes-man sclurchster is eating the leftovers.
I'm done for now. With both of you. Maybe another time. There are some really interesting people on this forum (like I said I've been reading back), and no offense, but you're not two of them. It's not just that you seem to enjoy the battle more than I do, it's not just that half of what you say illicits a "heh?" or a snort and not much more, it's not just the irratating chimera-like appearances you often make, and it's not just the fact that I already feel guilty enough for the contention I've brought in. It's a combination of these things.
See ya
hongomon
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deep_umbra
Stranger
Registered: 05/12/02
Posts: 109
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Re: The jokes roll forth [Re: Swami]
#633653 - 05/16/02 07:20 PM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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are you ignoring me swami? or you just don't want to answer the question?
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hongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 20 years, 7 months
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Re: The jokes roll forth [Re: deep_umbra]
#633659 - 05/16/02 07:22 PM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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Maybe sclorch can answer for him.
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deep_umbra
Stranger
Registered: 05/12/02
Posts: 109
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Re: truth? [Re: ]
#633681 - 05/16/02 07:44 PM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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In reply to:
That's not even the galaxy we live in. It's far far away.
Oh! I thought NASA had drivin their spaceshuttle 20000 lightyears out there to take a photo of our galaxy..
hehe sorry
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deep_umbra
Stranger
Registered: 05/12/02
Posts: 109
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Re: The jokes roll forth [Re: hongomon]
#633687 - 05/16/02 07:51 PM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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In reply to:
Maybe sclorch can answer for him.
Maybe.. but I think Sclorch is too busy hanging out in a pig pen playing in mud or something.. possibly with swami?
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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Re: Question sclurchster [Re: hongomon]
#633890 - 05/17/02 03:18 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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Baby killer...
I had a girlfriend like you once... well, she was less bitchy.
Same emotional rollercoaster though. Oh well....
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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jono
misc.
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 137
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Question sclurchster [Re: Sclorch]
#633895 - 05/17/02 03:30 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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I thought the point of this board was spirituality and philosophy. I fail to see where "and personal attacks" comes in. Why cant people share ideas and arguments, with respect, without getting personal, even if it is tempting.
Some people wont ever change their point of view, even with rational arguments, but venting the resulting frustration in a personal attack never achieves anything (that I've discovered anyway, If someone can show me evidence of it, then I might be willing to change my mind)
Just a thought.
Cheers,
Jono
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Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton
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hongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 20 years, 7 months
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Re: Question sclurchster [Re: jono]
#634142 - 05/17/02 08:35 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think you're right, Jono. I apologize. I may slip back some day, but in the meantime I'll try a little harder.
peace,
hongomon
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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Let the Bong Decide [Re: jono]
#634299 - 05/17/02 10:17 AM (22 years, 6 months ago) |
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I thought the point of this board was spirituality and philosophy. I fail to see where "and personal attacks" comes in. Why cant people share ideas and arguments, with respect, without getting personal, even if it is tempting.
But he... he.. he starte...
*pointing finger at ______*
Aw.... fug it!
*click click burbleburbleburble*
It's cool man...
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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