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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Calen]
    #896720 - 09/21/02 03:23 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Anyways, if I wanted to know if psychics are real, I find out for myself. 




like all the others who "found out" for themselves but the "psychic" later admitted to clever fraud?
"psychicness" is a business, it's taught from generation to generation, psychics have apprentices and teach them how to swindle people out of their money, not by reading minds, but by insight into human nature and appealing to human emotions.
this is why no "real" psychics have been proven.
it's like magic. years ago some people(other than young children) would believe magicians were really making things disappear. now we know it's just illusion and anyone with their head on straight realizes this. psychics appeal too much to people's emotions and desire for the amazing and spiritual for wide-range skepticism to develop. but hey, maybe that disappearing dove  I saw when I was 8 years old wasn't a trick after all  :shocked:


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896724 - 09/21/02 03:29 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

Shit! Next thing you are going to be telling me is that shows like "The Other Side" are fake...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #897086 - 09/21/02 11:29 AM (19 years, 11 days ago)

I KNOW that if i proved myself a psychic medium, i would have scientific people like you always trying to run tests on me to make sure i wasnt a "fluke".

I agree. Edgar Cayce had the same problems when he first revealed himself to the world. Countless numbers of skeptics bothered him to try and "prove" his abilities until at last he promised himself that he would no longer try to prove himself to anyone else, becaues he had already proved it to himself.
And that's all that matters, baby.  :laugh:


--------------------
:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #897090 - 09/21/02 11:34 AM (19 years, 11 days ago)

In reply to:

Edgar Cayce





ahahaahahHAAHahh*inadvertent snort*hahaahaahsahahhahhahdhggtfrwifihvb

oh. oops.
excuse me.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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InvisiblethePatient
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #897426 - 09/21/02 03:04 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

my negro bus driver 




negro?  :crazy:  I am 98% sure that you are caucasian, now. I would have gotten the same message if you just said "bus driver" 


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.


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OfflineViBrAnT
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #897463 - 09/21/02 03:23 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

Swami to tell you the truth, i think life would be a alot more boring without imagination and fantasy. truth changes according to conditions, therefore truth does not exsist in fact, there is almost always two sides to a truth depending once again on perception. If i was to say i would like to reason with you over something, the medium that we are reasoning on itself is almost always made up, everything is made up, truth itself is made up as we evolve as a society.


--------------------
" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "




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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #897570 - 09/21/02 04:08 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

Swami to tell you the truth, i think life would be a alot more boring without imagination and fantasy.
(Gawd, I love tangents!) Hoax, fraud, and misperception are not about the use of imagination.

truth changes according to conditions, therefore truth does not exsist in fact, there is almost always two sides to a truth depending once again on perception.
So all lies are truth? Deceipt is honesty? Misperception is clarity? Violence is love disguised?



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (09/21/02 11:28 PM)


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #897586 - 09/21/02 04:17 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

In reply to:

negro?




well, I am from the south, after all. I'm supposed to use archaic/demeaning references to race. ho ho.

but I'm some kind of european/asian mutt, if you must know


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #897587 - 09/21/02 04:17 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

There is an incredible amount of vagueness and total inaccuracy in Cayce's readings on the End of the World, the resurfacing of Atlantis, and his medical diagnosis. No wonder he could not satisfy any skeptics.

becaues he had already proved it to himself. And that's all that matters, baby.

The Son of Sam heard God's voice telling him to "Kill! Kill! Kill!" He knew in his heart that it was the directive of the Divine. And that's all that matters, baby.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinellib
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #897894 - 09/21/02 07:06 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

or if you know you experinced something and the skeptic has not experienced such, how DO you prove it. Does it mean your reality during that experience was false. i think not. Often, the skeptics will label a person who has had experiences that cant be proven as "crazy", schizophrenic, manic-depressive. Human made terms to describe individuals who have certain experiences.

Athought.....since we only use about 20% of our brain, is the brain more of a filter or regulator of stimuli? As we grow, if our brain were to respond to all stimuli that the body is presented to at once, the human would be unable to function in an orderly fashion. So possibly the brain learns to repress all stimuli it knows it does not need to respond to. Watch a baby/young child and watch his/her expressions as it engages the stimuli of the world.

What if the brain has evolved in such fashion that for 98% of the masses it filters stimuli in a certain way. We as humans may have other "senses" repressed, possibly there are more than just touch, sight, hearing, taste and smell. Additionally, as is experienced when, or at least i am told, when serotonin agonists are present is the possible deregulatory effect of cerain synapses. What if those 5 senses are enhmanced? many of you would agree that, from what I am told, that one's visual acuity is greatly enhanced.

What if the other 2% of the population has not as much regulation or filtering by their brain. Could they experience things that the other 98% dont. Seems reasonable. Some of those that are labled "crazy" may actually be "gifted".

An experiment, hmmmm, i would guess many here already have preformed this experiment with a certain vegetable.

I have read that DMT found indigenously in the pineal gland comes from a derivative found in teh sassafras root. it is also found in the ayahuasca(sp?) plant and made orally ingestable by a MAO inhibitor which is found naturally in syrian rue.

Why does the body have a gland, the pineal gland which isnt even made of brain tissue which ascends from teh soft palate and is found in the middle of the brain very close to auditory and visual nerve colliculi?

Why does the body breakdown DMT as fast as it is produced. It is suggested that with an overload of other neurotransmitters, dopamine, norepinephrine ect, that it may be possible to slow the breakdown of endogenous DMT. Could this molecule and conditions which cause its enhancement create near-death, mystical and alien experiences. this is a common theme reported by those who were administered IV DMT in new mexico, i have read.

So, possibly, in the 2% of the population, the 2% is a made up number, that are labled crazy, maybe their brains down filter or regulate as the other 98% or maybe they are born with levels of DMT that are higher or the lack of the enzyme which breaks it down as fast as it is made.

There are two times in teh souls existence when DMT levels are the highest
49 days after conception and 49 days after death.

Some eastern religious rituals do not bury their dead immediately. Rinpoche, the tibetan book of living and dying suggests that these altered levels of consciousness occur in deep meditation and it may be that the meditative state induces altered DMt levels.

Some of these eastern religious rituals are consistent with the belief that they are allowing the soul to live its vehicle and they believe that it doesnt leave with the apaprent bodily death. Could the soul be realted to DMT in some fashion? very interesting thought. The DMT thoughts are not my own , i take no credit for this proposition , it has already been written. i have simply tried to offer some integration amongst various disciplines.

peace


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OfflineCalen
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #897914 - 09/21/02 07:15 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

Ok, my browser was possessed, as usual, last night. I've backtracked and I will answer whatever I missed.


Swami said:
Huh? How does one investigate one's belief without testing it? So instead of testing a claimed psychic's ability which would get to the heart of the matter, instead I should scratch my head and ponder, "Hmm, why do I not believe in far-fetched unproven ideas?" Yes, that is VERY productive. All science should operate that way.

My statement to AJ was not to go "scratch."  Finding out (!= pondering) means go talk to the mediums if you have the interest to 'investigate' instead of armchairing beliefs and the alignment of trust. Of course, it's going to take a wad of cash to do it in the uh "Name of Science." :laugh:

How to possibly make this any clearer. Skeptics don't believe because they haven't witnessed it. The way for them to believe is to witness it. I know this is too straight-forward and uncomplicated.

Ok, daddy.  No need to be patronizing..

You read my mind. Now I believe!

Huh?  Were you a *psychic* when you said I was a "newbie" too?


Albino Jesus said:
like all the others who "found out" for themselves but the "psychic" later admitted to clever fraud?
"psychicness" is a business, it's taught from generation to generation, psychics have apprentices and teach them how to swindle people out of their money, not by reading minds, but by insight into human nature and appealing to human emotions.


Colors of bias, aye?  How well you know the business and the psychology behind the profiteering of *all* kinds of psychism.  You must be psychic, indeed? Or do you know it first-hand?

this is why no "real" psychics have been proven.
it's like magic. years ago some people(other than young children) would believe magicians were really making things disappear. now we know it's just illusion and anyone with their head on straight realizes this. psychics appeal too much to people's emotions and desire for the amazing and spiritual for wide-range skepticism to develop. but hey, maybe that disappearing dove I saw when I was 8 years old wasn't a trick after all

 
Errm.  What did I just say about the negative connotations of "debunk"?  Where are your first-hand experiences besides spouting the usual skeptic rhetoric of "it hasn't be proven"?

Even if there was a study validating the abilities of psychics, would it help the average people discern the difference between the fakes and the real ones?  A study can just be easily overturned by another independent one.  Then it's back to square one because in *this* arena there hasn't been strong leads  and funded public interest in developing methodology and research to date.


Speaking of studies, the reason I reframe your "a respectable scientist" if-statement was to do the "twist-your-arm" effect on the counter-balancing of your trust:

I believe that anyone who pushes telepathy as a reality is either lying to themselves or lying to everyone else.
if a real psychic ever existed, don't you think he/she'd have gotten loads of publicity and proved it? why are they all confined to $3 per minute 900-numbers and cheesy little shops in the crap part of town?


Got an image of those psychic networks' prolific hay-days on late-night TV and how every Joe Smoe watching it would think all psychics are 'bogus'.  A tint of *bias* in what you said.

An axiom of doubt. Sphere of mistrust.

then you switched it around:
if a respectable scientist encountered someone who claimed to be psychic, and gave a shit enough to test them thoroughly and repeatedly, and found no evidence to the contrary, he would most likely then proceed to discover how this phenomenon works. if he found a mechanism, he'd write reports and papers for journals, perhaps even a book. it would be an amazing discovery. when such a scientist does this, and I have the opportunity to review his work, I'll be elated. until then


An axiom of inquiry, but not procured by you.  Sphere of trusting a familiar honor system.

So I combined the two axioms together, to see what I receive in return.  Viola! The question wasn't directly answered,  but lie in those two paragraphs near the top.

So my dear (may I call you dear? :laugh:), which axiom do you truly profess to? Former or latter?
 


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OfflineCalen
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: llib]
    #897925 - 09/21/02 07:19 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

[bWhy does the body breakdown DMT as fast as it is produced. It is suggested that with an overload of other neurotransmitters, dopamine, norepinephrine ect, that it may be possible to slow the breakdown of endogenous DMT. Could this molecule and conditions which cause its enhancement create near-death, mystical and alien experiences. this is a common theme reported by those who were administered IV DMT in new mexico, i have read.


I vaguely remember reading those articles. I lost the link when my comp got reformatted. Some of the descriptions of the trips were freaking ethereal.. Seeing spirits.. Auras.. People looking like angels. I hope it pays dividents when they use themselves as guinea pigs because these experimenters are putting their health at risk using IV.


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Calen]
    #897932 - 09/21/02 07:25 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

bias is present after TRYING to find evidence of real psychic abilities with no positive results.
bias is present after loads of research because I WANTED it to be real, but I haven't found it to be.
bias is present after realizing that only people who are not by nature skeptical actually believe that psychic abilities exist. i.e. they not only want to believe but are willing to believe without real evidence.
this bias is not based on emotion, but on reason. unlike psychics' fanatics.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Calen]
    #897952 - 09/21/02 07:34 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

In reply to:

Sphere of trusting a familiar honor system





lmfao
an honor system
you obviously aren't very interested in science, or the scientifiic method. faulty science is noticed quickly because reason will dictate that the results don't make sense or are inconclusive. respectable scientists and even lay-people will criticise the results. this is why people like Michael Behe aren't getting anywhere in their "scientific" careers and are pretty much laughed at.

if ONE psychic could reliably read minds or predict the future, he/she would have caught someone's attention by now.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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Offlinellib
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #897954 - 09/21/02 07:34 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

post for general board, in response to biased scientists

I am a scientist and have applied scientific methodology often in reasearch. The base of "proving" something really doeasnt exist in science. Let me expound to conclude a cause, scientist, for whatever reason have adopted statisitical approaches for apllying the conclusions that they have "proved" something.

Further, the way they would test something is the following, I believe that adding this medicine will increase blood pressure.
So they propose teh hypothesis, called the null hypothesis which is actually the opposite statement.......there is no difference in subjects blood pressure who take this medicine and those who do not take this medicine. Then they measure the values then they take the averages and look at the standard deviations and then they apply a statistical test depending upon whether one is examining nominal or interval data. then they check and make sure that the variance between the means is not very different between the groups and then they apply the statistical test.

Following they present confidence intervals meaning, the change that is seen is...... seen and this is the important part about the scientific methodology!!!!!!!!! or occurs by chance 5-10-15% of the time. For some reason scientist are comfortable in saying that if something occurs 5% of the time by chance then they have "proven" something. They really havent. traditionally, they accept a 5% chance of occuring by chnace as something that is statistically significantly different. this is called the "p" value which is set at .05, meaning a 5% of the time chnace of teh difference being found by accident.

You may ask, why didnt they choose 1% or 10% or 20% or .01% if they are trying to prove something , the "p" value for teh above percentages would be p=.01, p=.1, p=.2 and p=.001. i dont know.

so most tests that are performed draw a conclusion if there is a difference. If there is no difference then it was not "proven". But even when there is a difference, they still only speak in terms of probabilities, not having "proven" anything.

As humans, i doubt we will be able to ever "prove" anything except the simple fact that we cant explain.

From here , allow me to digress. Science is quickly merging with eastern philosophy. Hawking's and other's have been trying to mesh the differences between newtonian mechanices, mathematical equations used to explain observed phenomenom in the "macro" world. Quantum mechanic scientist have been wrestling with the theory of relativity and Bohr's phenomenom. seemingly, when i read about these principles and the latest thought, it seems simply put that more symbols are being created to explain things in the "micro" world. Quantum mechanics deals with explaining mass, location and velocity in the "micro" world. The quantum mechanists can only speak in terms of probabilties.

So we scientists find ourselves meshing with eastern philosophic thought. So from the "dancing Wu li masters",
q: So what is it that makes events(micro world, subatomic particles) at that level?
A:who are the dancers and who teh dance? they have no attributes other than the dance.
Q: What is 'they"?
A: the things that dance, the dancers. My God! we're back to the titl eof the book.

Closing line sfrom above title.

so how can one "prove" anything? how can one kno wthe "truth"?


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #897961 - 09/21/02 07:38 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

also, I never indicated that just because a scientist actually DID research and write about psychics and claim they're legit, that I would automatically believe him/her without proof. I believe proof, not scientists. some scientists only wish they were. I'd be critical of the claims, as I am with everything else.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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OfflineCalen
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #898452 - 09/21/02 11:26 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

bias is present after TRYING to find evidence of real psychic abilities with no positive results.
bias is present after loads of research because I WANTED it to be real, but I haven't found it to be.
bias is present after realizing that only people who are not by nature skeptical actually believe that psychic abilities exist. i.e. they not only want to believe but are willing to believe without real evidence.
this bias is not based on emotion, but on reason. unlike psychics' fanatics.


I understand you have an investment in beliefs. Those particular colorful statements you made, previously, are slanted with bias. The colors of prejuidice are not the even-ness of reason.

Who tried? What evidence have you produced for yourself? None so far. You researched? No. I never asked you to believe without evidence. I asked about your proactive approach verses a mere, what, intellectual approach by sitting from a chair.

Realize? So people who express and explore the 'possibility' without the due process of proof makes it.....reasonable to assume bias. ahahah. Nevermind.


lmfao
an honor system
you obviously aren't very interested in science, or the scientifiic method. faulty science is noticed quickly because reason will dictate that the results don't make sense or are inconclusive. respectable scientists and even lay-people will criticise the results. this is why people like Michael Behe aren't getting anywhere in their "scientific" careers and are pretty much laughed at.

if ONE psychic could reliably read minds or predict the future, he/she would have caught someone's attention by now.


The presumption on your part is vaporous. And yes, I stand by it: honor system. A fundamental level between the cooperation of humans to advance civilization.

An idealist will pay the price when she/he does not know the limits presented by the environment (like Michael) he/she is working in.

And Thank you for your serving, Miss Attitude.

Dinner is over.


Edited by Calen (09/21/02 11:28 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: llib]
    #898466 - 09/21/02 11:32 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

Athought.....since we only use about 20% of our brain

Enough already. Where do you come up with this shit? You heard it somewhere and you take it as gospel? This is a TOTAL falsehood.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Calen]
    #898471 - 09/21/02 11:35 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

Huh? Were you a *psychic* when you said I was a "newbie" too?

Get a grip, Calen. "Newbie" is part of your VISIBLE self-description.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Calen]
    #898481 - 09/21/02 11:42 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

Even if there was a study validating the abilities of psychics...

But there aren't, so the term "skeptical rhetoric" doesn't apply.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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