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absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the
    #503036 -

All of you who own a bible, get it so you can cross referance all of the findings so as not to doubt. This following is the absolute biblical proof that the papacy is the anti-christ.
Here are the scriptures that identify the coming of the anti-christ.
dan 7:2,3 - four beasts come up.
dan 7:17,23 - beasts are kings and their kingdoms.
dan 7:4 - first like a lion, babylon.
dan 7:5 - second like a bear, medo-persia.
dan 7:6 - third like a leopard, greece.
dan 7:7 - fourth dreadful beast representing rome.
dan 7: - ten horns, are ten kings that would arise.
they were; Alamanni(germany), Visigoths(spain), franks(france), Suevi(portugal), Burgundians(swiss), anglo-saxon(britain), Lombards(italy), Heruli(destroyed 493), Vandals(detroyed 534), Ostrogoths(destroyed 538).
dan 7:8 - the little horn comes up umong them(the anti-christ).

here follow nine identifying marks of the beast.

1. It comes up "among them", somehwere in western europe. (vs. 8)
2. It comes up after 476 ad, because the other ten kingdoms did not come up unitl after that date.(vs.8)
3. It uproots or destroys three other kingdoms(or horns), the Heruli, Vandals and the Ostrogoths.(vs.8)
4. It has a man at his head to speak for it.(vs.8)
5. It is diverse or different from the other kingdoms.(vs.24)
6. It will speak great words of blasphemy(vs.25; rev. 13:5)
A. John 10:31 - a man makes himself god.
B. Mark 2:5 - A man claims to forgive sins.
7. It would wear out and pursecute gods people.(vs.25)
8. It would try to change gods law(vs.25)
9. I would rule for a time, times and dividing of time. Compare rev. 12:14; rev. 12:6 : time = 1 year; times = 2 years; dividing of time = a half a year = 1260 days or prephetic years(num 14:34, ezek 4:6)

compare with beast of revelation 13.
rev 13:5 - it rules the same 1260 years and speaks blasthemy.
rev 13:7 - it pursecutes the saints.
rev 13:1,3 - It is made up of the four beasts of daniel 7.


let us begin to put it togather, I will compare biblical prophesy with historical history of that region abd of the papacy.

1. It came up among the ten tribes, we know this to be a geographical point somewhere in western europe.(dan 7:8)
---the vatican city is among the tribes---
2. It came up after the division of rome((dan 7:8)
---constantine gave his power and authority to the pope---
3. When it came to power it uprooted three of the other tribes.
---the vatican conquered the Heruli, the Vandals and the Ostrogoths---
4. The horn has the eyes of a man, this means two things first that the beast will have a man at its head, and in the bible the eye is a symbol for gods spirit and intelligence- so the man will imitate divinity(rev 5:6, rev 4:6-8, ezek 1:18, dan 7:8,20)
---does it imitate divinity, yes the pope is called the lord god the pope---
5. He will speak against god and his plan(dan 7:8,20)
---many catholic teachings are un-biblical---
6. He will wear out and persecute the saints, it also speaks of gods people.(dan 7:25)
---Did the papacy persecute people, the conservative estimate I can find says 50 million---
7. He will change set times and laws.
---they removed the second commandment to justify their worshipping of statues, and they changed the holy day of rest from sat to sun.
8. He will rule for 1260 days, which is gone into more deeply above, 1260 years(dan 7:25, ezek 4:6- days to years method-)
---in 538 ad the Ostrogoths ended their attack on rome giving the pope room to excersize his new power, from then it is exactly 1260 years until the pope is taken captive and killed by one of napoleons generals. And it says(youll see below) that the beast shall suffer a wound(this one), and not only survive but grow stronger---
9. He will speak blasthemy against god.(rev 13:1,5,6)
---jesus himself was acused of the same because he claimed to be god and forgave sins, so we will use the same to judge the beast. The papacy incourages people to not go directly to god but to their priests for the forgivness of sins.---
10. The whole world will wonder after him.
---almost every christian church worships on sundat and most do not know why---
11. 666 is the number of his name(rev 13:17,18). Letters in roman, hebrew and latin have a numerical value.
---the popes oficial name is; Vicarius Filii Dei;
v=5 i=1 c=100 a=0 r=0 i=1 u=5 s=0
f=0 i=1 l=50 i=1 i=1
d=500 e=0 i=1.
if you add it up it equals 666. check it if you like I did this part of the research myself---
12. the beast had a fatal wounf but survived and grew in strength.(rev 13:3)
---in 1798 the pope was taken captive and killed---
13. the dragon gave the beast its great seat and authority. well who is the dragon? remember that all animals represent a kingdom. rev 12:9 says that the dragon is satan. rev 12 is about a woman giving birth to the king of all nations, and the dragon tries to kill him. So who can fulfill this, well obviously the child is jesus, and what kingdom tried to kill jesus- rome- so the dragon is rome.(rev 13:4). so who did rome give its great seat and authority to, you guessed it.
--- the emporur constantine handed over his power to the pope---

another point - in rev17 it talks of a whore sitting on top the beast. Well we know the beast is the anti-christ so who is the whore. Well we know that god called his chirch the bride of zion. So it appears that a woman represents a church, and what would a whore represent - a corrupt church! Another weird thing is the whore is clothed in purple and scarlet, the official colors of the roman catholic church are purple and scarlet. The pope himself often wears a robe of those same colors.

I hated to write this because I thought it might offend any catholics out there, but it needed to be said. I am not even christian and this is disturbing. Sorry if this offended anyone, catholics(most) are good people, just misslead it seems.


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" I have decided to become an example for others, although I have never been one for moderation. I have decided never to eat LSD while asleep, never to refrain while awake, and to never eat less than 10 hits at a time."

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: ArchDruid]
    #503086 -

I like you Christians, Just because you take an interpretation of the bible is true, how can you now anything in the bible is true?
Is a storybook man!
The ancient Jews started the story and of course what they are going to say, "they are the chosen ones" how convenient. (By the way no offence to Jews all peoples have a similar story that they are special somehow, is human nature)
And now people take the book for granted as the only true story of the world, give me a brake!
The Pope is no more phony than any preacher out there or for that matter any one who thinks that they own the truth.
Because of people who think like you do, the world is the way it is, look Jews against Muslims, Muslims against Christians, Christians against Jews and so on.
If you are going to fallow the bible fallow Jesus teachings (LOVE and Compassion)
Not Hate!


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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: ArchDruid]
    #503092 -

The Catholic church has been the victim of more misinformation and lies than any other entity. Your interpretation of the scriptures is flawed just as those that claim the church is the 'whore of babylon' is flawed...

From: http://www.ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp?source=/ewtn/experts/conference.htm

Whore of Babylon


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Judging by the criteria of biblical fundamentalism (literal words literally understood) it is certain that there is no mention of the Catholic Church in the book of Revelation as the Whore of Babylon. By contortions of interpretation (not biblical literalism) some groups and individuals equate the Whore in Revelation 17:9 with the Catholic Church since Rome is the famous city of seven hills and the Church's principal See is Rome. This position is untenable, both factually and from the only words of Scripture which tell us of the actual doctrine of the Antichrist, those of the apostle John in his letters.

There would seem to be two choices, either interpret Rev 17:9 absolutely literally or according to some interpretive key that is metaphorical, allegorical or otherwise non-literal.Lets look first at literal interpretation.

"The seven heads represent seven hills on which the woman sits." First of all, no Pope has ever lived or had his "seat" (cathedra or cathedral) on any of the seven hills of Rome. These hills are small hillocks (Capitoline, Palatine, Esquiline, Aventine and three lesser "bumps" in central Rome) where the religion and government of pagan Rome was situated. The Catholic Church's headquarters at the Lateran (the cathedral) and at the Vatican (where the Pope lives) does not coincide with them. At the time that John wrote Revelation the Christians of Rome lived mostly in Trastevere (trans Tiber), a district "across the Tiber" from the City and adjacent to the Vatican hill where St. Peter was crucified and buried. The Vatican is on top of that burial site and is today its own city-state distinct from Rome and Italy.

So, of what was St. John speaking when he wrote Revelation on the island of Patmos around 96 AD? Obviously of the pagan imperial system situated on the Seven Hills. especially the Capitoline (the religious and political center) and the Palatine (the imperial palace). This pagan power persecuted the Church of Rome in Nero's day (64-67 AD), and in the mid-90s under Domitian was persecuting Christians throughout the Roman world. Domitian was considered by the people a re-incarnation of the evil, but well-liked, Nero (the head that lives again). While the antichrist Nero persecuted only the Christians of Rome, Domitian extended that persecution through the empire. Both are thus types of the final persecutor.

Why the cryptic name Babylon? First, the historical Babylon was the pagan power which persecuted the People of God, the Jews, between 610 and 538 BC, destroying the Temple and dispersing the people. The Romans inherited that mantle of infamy when they destroyed the Temple in 70 AD, and more importantly persecuted the new People of God, the Church. Thus, St. Peter, writing from Rome refers to as "Babylon" (1 Pt. 5:13) - a name any Jew or Christian familiar with the Old Testament would know.

How does this relate to the Antichrist? The future Antichrist will be a world-wide power, essentially pagan, which will persecute the Catholic Church (and orthodox Christians in general) everywhere, as the Babylonians persecuted the Jews and 1st century Rome the Church. These are biblical types! The Babylon of John's day, Rome, stands for the kingdom of the future Antichrist and is no more likely to be situated in Italy than Rome needed to be situated in Babylonia (modern Iraq). John was informing his readers of these prophetic types by drawing their attention to the contemporary fulfillment they found in pagan Rome. The Antichrist will come out of the Christian world (Greco-Roman civilization) to be sure (1 John 2:19), but America is as much an inheritor of that civilization as Europe and just as likely to be the source of the Antichrist.

Finally, after distorting the text and history to read what they want into the Bible, and thereby obtaining God's "blessing" on their hatred of the Catholic Church, some "Christians" ignore the only texts of Scripture which tells us about the religious leanings of the Antichrist. The Catholic faith being a religion you would think they would see what it teaches on the only criteria the Bible actually gives about the Antichrist. In St. John's letters (1 John 4, 2 John 1), he tells us that the spirit of the Antichrist denies the Incarnation (the Son of God becoming man) and thereby also the Trinity (the Father and the Spirit, too). This is the spirit of the Antichrist. There is not a single text in 2000 years, including the new Catechism of the Catholic Church, where the Catholic Church, her popes, her bishops, her official teachings, her saints, or her acknowledged ecclesiastical authors, deny the Word-made-flesh or the Blessed Trinity. Instead, all of Christianity owes the preservation of these Truths to the Catholic Church, whose great Councils formulated them and whose saints and popes have defended them to this day, often at the cost of martyrdom.The present pope, John Paul II, has written three great encyclical (circular) letters on the Trinity, one for each Divine Person, and he has without a doubt preached Jesus Christ to more people than any other person in human history. The Catholic Church does not have the spirit of the Antichrist but of God, since no one without the Spirit can say "Jesus is Lord" (1 Cor. 12:3), something the Church and Catholics always have done and continue to do!


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Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL

Back to Expert FAQ
_________________________

BTW, I'm a Roman catholic.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #503096 -

And another thing the analysis is also flawed for a variety of other reasons:
In reply to:

2. It came up after the division of rome((dan 7:8)
---constantine gave his power and authority to the pope---


So Constantine founded the catholic church? Lol but that's a historical lie, the church had held several ecclesiastical councils centuries prior to constantine...

All of those things you wrote are vicious LIES about the church and the pope. I hope everyone sees that hog wash for what it is, LIES, BLATENT LIES.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: ArchDruid]
    #503129 -

Dude...is this like something that is sacred to you because of a different belief system? Or do you know some hypocrites?

Too "head-y" a discussion for me...

Does anyone remember where we parked..........????
...Tannis

"...it's hard to meditate---when you're on ampthamines..."
----------Joe Walsh

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: Tannis]
    #503165 -

Yeap, normally some catholic will come and make a reply denying all the truth about those facts. I was myself a catholic also untill i was 14, 12 years ago, i must admit looking back, that my perception of my spiritual link was distorted by those same dogmas the church told me to believe. As i managed to understand the world surrounding me, my biggest help was my grand father, he also was a catholic untill he was 48, but he (as he made me see later) concluded after reading the bible and other historical facts that the catholic church began to rot since it became an institution, institutions are rulled by man and man seeks power for him and for the institution, haven't you forget what was made in the inquisition times by the catholics? A long time ago the catholic church (and other institutionalized religions aren't/) isn't a religion but an institution rulled by "its" religion and "its" religion is tought to its believers.
Christ didn't told us to pray and adore images, or made us go confess to the prist. All the catholics comunities are more concerned with the virgin Mary and other saints and its statues comanded by the patriarcal image of the priest than for God and Christ themselfs. Endless and futile prayers, words repeated countlesslly but their minds obsucured by material thoughts, disconnected from above. Catholics lost their sense of meditation, they lost it because thae curch doesn't want us to trully meditate, they want us to meditate on their dogmas and man made teachings. If they trully meditate ( as it is made in wonderful religions like the budist or descriptive and enlightning doctrines like cristian racionalism ), if they only meditate without those institutionalized bounds filling their minds, they would see the magnificent true meanning of the word of Christ and their God, we read the same biblic words over and over but if you only colect Christ words and forget the rest, write them down and read them, forget everything the church told you, understand those words with an open mind, understand its context. Christ was talking to people with limited understanding of the world and the universe, even the vocabulary was limited, and catholics still read the same words writen by that people, we have to give a more spiritual value to His word and them ask the question, why the institution and his values and laws ?

[11] He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables [12] so that, "`they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' - Mark (4:11-12)

I came across many religions in my life, read many words of wisdom from many mentors, Christ was one of them and perhaps the one that most afected me, and all i can tell you is, he didn't told me to have a religion, he just asked people to believe in is word and His word the way i see it is much more beautiful and powerful than when i was a catholic.

"If you continue in my word . . . you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." Jesus (John 8:31-32 RSV)

Peace,
MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

Edited by MAIA (12/28/01 09:57 AM)

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: MAIA]
    #503195 -

Ya'll should try being a Jewish Mormon.


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Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: MAIA]
    #503212 -

...but I'm not catholic....

What I mean is 1---Are you defending another belief system?

And / Or 2---Do you know some real catholic hypocrites and want to show their full of it?

---Tannis

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: Tannis]
    #503249 -

"...but I'm not catholic...."
Sorry Tannis, first pasrt was to you, the rest would be to RAIL GUN.

1---Are you defending another belief system?
No system, spirituality doesn't need to be connected to a religion, i could be a religious person without having a religion.
You see, if you believe a religion you believe what they teach you, monoteistic religions have only one god and all of those religions teach you their god is the "right" god. That makes the word "faith" come into the scene, dig a little bit and you'll question yourself why other people have a diferent faith. The faith itself is a reproduction of those laws and dogmas converted into a colective awareness by that institution. True spiritual awareness has nothing to do with this intitutional "faith" as this institutional "faith" is in favour man-made laws and dogmas, spiritual awareness is a very individual and personal aproach were you find yourself meditating with the being above, there are no saints or images to adore, no bondage to institutionalized ideals, you are the sanctuary,you are the church but you are not God, and He's not a guy with beard sitting on an acient chair looking down saying who's right or wrong, He's the universe, the universal conscienceness, we are only a part of Him.
So, religion is a filter to spiritual awareness, diferent religions, diferent filters. Try to remove the filters and behold the true nature of God. I'm not saying i did it, i'm saying i'm still trying to.

"2---Do you know some real catholic hypocrites and want to show their full of it? "

Many catholics are hypocrites because they refuse to consider they might be wrong and that's several steps before admiting being wrong.
Biblical interpretation can be misleading sometimes, but the fact is that the catholic curch has changed the bible to its own benefit, taking advantage of the "faith" people put in that word thus misleading even more people, and then they say it's the Lord words, that's hypocricy.
BTW, i live in a country where 95% of the population is catholic, some catholics accept some of my words (when in debate), others laugh and say i'm reading other religion bible, others say that it was the way they were raised. I say, question yourselves about the "need" of a religion and the institution it represents.

Peace,
MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: upupup]
    #503303 -

Well it's nice to see that you have an apropiate pic for this forum!

hehe


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>>Jammer>>

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: Jammer]
    #504276 -

First the research is not flawed in any way, some of you may think so out of some sort of defence mechanism.
Second, those scriptures were not originally written against the catholic church, they were written many centuries before.
Third, Rail_Gun - no-one said he founded the church you moron, I simple said that he gave up his seat and authority to the pope. And that is a certainty. With the disolution of the roman empire, at the end, constantine gave what little power he had left to the pope.
I do not know whether or not I hold anything in the bible to be true or not, but it certainly demands attention now and then.


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" I have decided to become an example for others, although I have never been one for moderation. I have decided never to eat LSD while asleep, never to refrain while awake, and to never eat less than 10 hits at a time."

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: ArchDruid]
    #504631 -

Ah, but Arch-Druid, what you've said is flawed. And if using my brain is a defence mechanism then I'm guilty of that... Those scriptures you've quoted are being taken completely out of context. What you've done is put together a lot of scriptures that don't go together to make them mean what you want them to mean. That is what cults do. For example lets say I put together a verse that says "...Judas hanged himself," and and another that says "...go thou and do likewise..." To say that the Bible says Judas hanged himself go thou and do likewise. Those words may be in the Bible but they do not go together and it is a lie to say the Bible says to go hang yourself because thats what Judas did. You're doing the very same thing, taking scripture out of context for your own purposes. You've twisted the meaning of scripture to suit your own hateful anti-catholic purposes


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #504755 -

I am Jesus Christ.
Before you point the finger you should know that I'm the man, and if I'm the man, then you're the man, and he's the man as well so you can point that fuckin' finger up your ass.

No offense ment, I'm serious. The second coming of Christ is through our consciousness.


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I'm praying for infinite lapdances in heaven and an infinite supply of cocaine to snort out of Angelina Jolie's ass crack.

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #504776 -

"You've twisted the meaning of scripture to suit your own hateful anti-catholic purposes"

...And what tells you the catholic curch haven't done that ?
There is a catholic interpretation of the bible, that doesn't mean it's the true and only interpretation. You say others interpretations are twisted but you never thought the catholic interpretation could be the one being twisted, the word hypocricy is properly used this time.
Now tell me how the catholic church twisted exodus 20:4-5
"4
"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
5
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,"


Peace,
MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: upupup]
    #504778 -

?
Explain please.

Peace,
MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: MAIA]
    #504783 -

MAIA, you've obviously never been to a catholic church... We do not worship idols. We worship God only. We have statues of Jesus and the saints to remind of them but we do not in any way worship them. We do genuflect or bow to the tabernacle to show respect to Jesus's presence in it (body blood soul and divinity) but it is bowing to Jesus, not an object or idol.

It never ceases to amaze me the misconceptions people have about the catholic faith... Someone once told me that there were convents that had a lot of nuns and one priest living there. He said the nuns were married to the Lord so the priest could take his choice of the nuns and have sex with them any time he wanted. Now I just about burst out laughing but he was serious. Of course I corrected him... The point being, there are a lot of misconceptions about the catholic faith, very few of which are true.

Take care

Edited to correct typos


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Edited by Ellis Dee (12/30/01 12:33 PM)

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #504808 -

"MAIA, you've obviously never been to a catholic church... We do not worship idols. We worship God only"

Hey dude, do you know my country is catholic since 1138 ? Do you know i live 20 meters away from a 300 years old catholic church ? There was made my baptism, 1st. and 2nd. comunion, you must be kidding, right? Have you ever seen people touching a statue foot untill the rock is wept off of so much touching ? Have you ever eard of hundred of people going to a church in the country to adore a Saint image because someone saw the image cry blood ? Do you know where and who Fatima is and what is adored there? Do you know there's a market of thousands of dollars per year just by selling statues on that place ?
Are you telling me i don't know my own familly? Allmost all of them are catholics, they have a picture of Christ in the wall and a bunch of images to adore and PRAY TO. And guess what ? Virgen Mary's statues have more success than Christ ones, well perhaps its the oposite where you live. Of course there are places where specific believes are put in specific saints, like praying to St. Martin statue before going into the sea and/or it's mandatory to have a statue of him in the boat or else it will sink. Then you say catholics do not adore images, they love them!!!
Where i live this shit happens.

Peace,
MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #504815 -

"He said the nuns were married to the Lord so the priest could take his choice of the nuns and have sex with them any time he wanted. Now I just about burst out laughing but he was serious."

Yes, this happened once in Portugal in 1753 in a convent in Lisbon, Mr. Marques de Pombal ruller of the city "rocked" the house and kicked out all of them , they were burned in the fire as the inquisition demanded.

Peace,
MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: MAIA]
    #504835 -

MAIA, I'm sorry but you're mistaking veneration for adoration/worship. For instance, we venerate the virgin Mary because she gave us our Lord, she's God's mom. And we pray to her and other saints for them to interceed to the Lord for us because they're closer to God than we are and they're in real good with him.

Now I'll quote from the new Catechism of the Catholic Church: 2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to it's prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacrd images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone: Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their ditinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the imae does not terminate in it as image, but tends towards that whos image it is.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #504841 -

Strange how the Catholic religion is the wealthiest (moneywise) entity in the world.

Edited by Shroomism (12/30/01 01:53 PM)

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: ]
    #504853 -

Strange how the Catholic religion is the wealthiest (moneywise) entity in the world.

It should be, it's been around for 2000 years and during that time has become among the largest religions on earth. During 2000 years of history the church has had innumerable wealthy and royal patrons who contributed fortunes, estates, and chattles... If You were around for 2000 years you might acquire a tidy amount yourself...

Take care


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #504861 -

Yep..gotta have those padded seats and 12 car garage.

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #504865 -

Why are Catholic statues any different from, say, a golden statue of a cow wearing a sombrero? You can not [scientifically] prove that God, Jesus, Virgin Mary exists and you cannot prove that the Mexican Sacred Sombero-wearing Gold Cow doesn't exist. They all have equal right to be in the Catholic church, and all are on the same wavelength. If I want to worship the Mexican Sacred Sombero-wearing Gold Cow, then you can worship the Virgin Mary, Jesus, God, Ernest P. Wurl, or whoever. It is all the same to the 2nd commandment.
Chicken scratch or no chicken scratch, it's still just a piece of plastic [or rock, or a painting, etc. etc.].


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I'm praying for infinite lapdances in heaven and an infinite supply of cocaine to snort out of Angelina Jolie's ass crack.

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: KeepAskingTime]
    #505101 -

RAIL_GUN - I hate to be the one to tell you this, although I admire you and your defence of the in-defencable, you have been brain washed brother. SHROOMISM brought up a good point, the wealthiest entity. You say good to this, while people all over the world are starving, yes indeedy you need those padded seats and gold inlays and stain glass windows, etc. You know the catholic church also kept out of our moder bibles the apocrphy(sp?), in it the gospal of saint thomas(doubting thomas) says something like "Lift a stone and I am there, split a peice of wood and you shall find me" I may have gotten it wrong, but the point is that if it were included in the currently distributed bible the catholic church would be seen as uneeded. Churches are uneeded. Especially the extravagant catholic ones, do you think god cares if his church is made of gold or straw? While his poeple go hungry and die? "My father consitered a walk among the mountains the equivelant of church going", I cant remember who said that, but its true.
My research is not taken out of context, your is. "Go and do likewise", talk about taking things litteraly and out of context. I can understand why you are so defencive, it would mean that your entire belief system was based on the one entity you are taught to hate, satan.
I would listen sooner to MAIA than anyother here about this including me. He seems to be sincere in his credentials.


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" I have decided to become an example for others, although I have never been one for moderation. I have decided never to eat LSD while asleep, never to refrain while awake, and to never eat less than 10 hits at a time."

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olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: ArchDruid]
    #505124 -

Arch-Druid, have you ever really read the "Gospel of St. Thomas"? I have, I borrowed it from the library. It has stories in it which are pretty contrary to the nature we know of Jesus. In one story Jesus was a child and another child was angry at him and tried to strike him, and his arm withered away... In another story Jesus is playing with mud and clay and forms it in to birds, throws them up in the air and they become real birds and fly away... The stories in Thomas seem out of chracter for the participants. It's not a legitamate part of the scriptures because it's not the inspired word of God.

If the catholic church were to give all her wealth to the poor it would be a mere temperary boon to them. As it is now it's a permanent help to the faithful and brings us joy when we see it, and all the stained glass windows. My parish I go to now has the best stained glass which I've ever seen, I love it. It's so beautiful and couldn't be recreated if it were to be damaged because it was made with processes involving mercury that are now illegal. What long term good would it do to remove these great works of art, sell them and board up the windows? I thiink it would do harm in the long run!

Now, when people talk about the wealth and supposed hypocracy of the church they often talk of one or two aspects of the church while conveniently forgeting about others. Have you ever heard of the Franciscans? It's a holy order and a way of life for a tremendous amount of catholics. The brothers own nothing, live in poverty, dedicating their lives to serving the poor, and teaching simply as Christ did.

What a lot of people want to forget about is the rich traditions of the catholic church. The church is ancient, 2000 years old. In that time we've formed valuable traditions which aid us in becoming closer to God. In that time the church has grown from seed to encompass the world. It accomidates the cultures of all different races and people. The catholic church accomidates all sorts of people and doesn't discriminate as some people would have us do. The catholic church is truely the universal church.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #505150 -

Yes I have read it, I believe that it should be believed over the others, because of his own skeptism. How do you knoe its not the inspired work of god, for that matter how do you know any of it is the inspired work of god, faith.
The short term releif of millions is better than no releif at all, not to mention that the continued flow of wealth could be ginev as well. I do not suggest you lose those works of art in the least, they are pressious to even me who has no faith in your faith. But they should not have been bought in the first place, it is glutinos and steeped in vanity.
Truely the universal church, ideed such as it was written that "all would follow after him", and they do. I may be mistaken but I believe that the catholic faith is the largest in the world.
And another thing, how can you become closer to god if you are not even encouraged to speak DIRECTLY TO HIM.


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" I have decided to become an example for others, although I have never been one for moderation. I have decided never to eat LSD while asleep, never to refrain while awake, and to never eat less than 10 hits at a time."

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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: ArchDruid]
    #505161 -

Arch-Druid, it should be noted that although "The gospel of St. Thomas" has St. Thomas's name on it there is historical evidenc that St. Thomas did not write it. Do you still think that 2nd hand rumors should be included in the canon of a religion you don't even believe in?

BTW, we do pray directly to God.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Edited by Ellis Dee (12/30/01 06:51 PM)

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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #505165 -

Pray to him maybe, but confess and are forgiven by others.
not by god, or seemingly in his authority.


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" I have decided to become an example for others, although I have never been one for moderation. I have decided never to eat LSD while asleep, never to refrain while awake, and to never eat less than 10 hits at a time."

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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: ArchDruid]
    #505167 -

and another thing, about the whole mother of god thing. Jesus said himself "woman, what have I to do with the", Mary has nothing to do with it, otherwise she would not have had to worship her own son. She was merely the vessel. And yet you boy and revere her, the catholic church has many excuses for the worshiping or "reverance" of Idols.


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" I have decided to become an example for others, although I have never been one for moderation. I have decided never to eat LSD while asleep, never to refrain while awake, and to never eat less than 10 hits at a time."

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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: ArchDruid]
    #505185 -

Ah, the old why ask a priest to forgive your sins argument... Check out John chapter 20:19-23. In John 19:23 Jesus instructs his diciples to forgive peoples sins with his authority by instructing his diciples, "Who's sins you forgive are forgiven and who's sins you retain are retained." In the sacrament of penance (confession) the priest acts in 'persona Christi', in the place of Christ to forgive sins. So God is forgiving sins through the priest's say so just as he instructed his diciples to do. This is the way God intended.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Catholic church, rock of stability and love! [Re: ArchDruid]
    #505193 -

and another thing, about the whole mother of god thing. Jesus said himself "woman, what have I to do with the", Mary has nothing to do with it, otherwise she would not have had to worship her own son. She was merely the vessel. And yet you boy and revere her, the catholic church has many excuses for the worshiping or "reverance" of Idols.
Hmm, ok. What does Jesus have to do with his mother? For one thing she gave birth to him... She was always loyal to him and followed him, even to the foot of the cross when all the diciples abandoned him. Jesus loved his mom and so do we!


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #505256 -

My problem with the Catholic Church is their changing of the document known as the Bible. In 1600, certain high ranking officials of the Church got together and edited, cut, and added to the Bible. This wasn't the first time this happened either.
Some facts to clear up:
Jesus taught meditation and reincarnation, which I'm sure you haven't heard about because they took that out of the Bible.
After all...where would the Church fit in if people knew they could solve their own problems?
Of course, the Church took this the opposite direction and instead of teaching meditation (going within as a form of prayer...seeking the answers within, the God within) They taught asking an outside source for help, which is, essentially, the polar opposite of meditation.

God is in all people, not just priests.
You don't need to go to mass to get a chance to see him
Contrary to popular belief, God really does not need that much money.

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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: ArchDruid]
    #505261 -

I say...what is this "collection plate"?

"They pass it around in Church to collect people's money"

"But why do they need money?"

"Haven't you read the Bible man? It says you must give a 10% tithe of your income to the Church"

"God said that?"

"Uhh, I think so, its in the Bible"



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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: KeepAskingTime]
    #505265 -

Who is the pope anyway? And why is he the pope? Is it for distraction purposes?
Why does he get transported down the street in a bulletproof glass box? Does he have enemies? How did that happen?
Why is the pope the pope? What did he do that makes him special?

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: ]
    #505282 -

I was not going to argue the point any more. Thank you SHROOMISM - you did it in my absence probebly far better than I could have.
I apologise to those I offended by posting this thread, although it did bring to light alot that I didnt know ,which is always welcome. RAIL_GUN - well, some people you just cant reach.


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" I have decided to become an example for others, although I have never been one for moderation. I have decided never to eat LSD while asleep, never to refrain while awake, and to never eat less than 10 hits at a time."

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Catholic church, rock of stability and love! [Re: ]
    #505291 -

My problem with the Catholic Church is their changing of the document known as the Bible. In 1600, certain high ranking officials of the Church got together and edited, cut, and added to the Bible. This wasn't the first time this happened either.
Some facts to clear up:
Jesus taught meditation and reincarnation, which I'm sure you haven't heard about because they took that out of the Bible.

Do you have any documentation whatsoever for that rediculous claim? I'm sure you don't because it's a blatent lie. There are authentic 'catholic versions' of the bible dating back hundreads and hundreads of years before the 15th century. The Latin Vulgate of St. Jerome has been declared to be correct and it was written/translated in 405 AD and has not changed to this day. This had been declared authoritative for Catholics by the Council of Trent in 1545 and they did not alter it in any way, simply declare officially that it is correct. That about the catholic heirarchy editing out reincarnation and meditation is a lie. Some of the early eccumenical councils condemned such heresys spread by easterners even prior to 300 AD I believe... The Bible is essentially the same now as it was when the canan was decided. Only thing different is the languages it's been translated to, hundreads of them. Martin Luther cut a lot out of the protestant versions, the books of maccabees and sarach come to mind...

And the deal with the Pope being in charge, that's called apostolic succession. Our present pope is a direct successor of our first pope, St. Peter. Check out mathew 16:19 for the explaination of God giving power to the pope to bind things on earth and they being bound in heaven, loosed on earth, loosed in heaven. The pope has the keys to the kingdom and he uses them when he feels like it.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: Catholic church, rock of stability and love! [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #505310 -

I just read that verse, and my interpretation is the same as all but CATHOLICS. That it gives that right to ALL christians.


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" I have decided to become an example for others, although I have never been one for moderation. I have decided never to eat LSD while asleep, never to refrain while awake, and to never eat less than 10 hits at a time."

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Re: Catholic church, rock of stability and love! [Re: ArchDruid]
    #505319 -

I just read that verse, and my interpretation is the same as all but CATHOLICS. That it gives that right to ALL christians.

Read it in context. Even in the new testament when there's disagreement among the apostles St. Peter settles it. The argument among the apostles as to whether or not gentiles first having to be circumcized as jews before they could become christians comes immediatly to mind, and then the dietary law controversy... It was a big controversy and St. Peter settled it. The pope is the modern day successor to St Peter and has the same authority God gave to St. Peter.

And how on earth do you interpret Jesus saying "Peter you are rock and upon this rock I shall build my church," to mean everyone, it's explicit in that Peter is rock.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Edited by Ellis Dee (12/30/01 09:14 PM)

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Re: Catholic church, rock of stability and love! [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #505439 -

Yes, Peter is rock-hard, for Catholicism.

/me snickers like a little church boy


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I'm praying for infinite lapdances in heaven and an infinite supply of cocaine to snort out of Angelina Jolie's ass crack.

Edited by KeepAskingTime (12/30/01 11:11 PM)

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Re: Catholic church, rock of stability and love! [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #505677 -

Matthew 16:18
"And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."
Where's explicit ? Matthew says "ON this rock", not Peter being the rock and that "I (Jesus, not Peter) will build my church".... does not say when ?
Also i know Peter has an equal meanning as (petra) rock, but why in Mattheus he doesn't "on you" but "on this rock" ?

Matthew 16:19
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Where does it say the key will go to its successor ?

Matthew 16
:22
Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"
:23
Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Jesus forsaw the risk of "the things of man" and treated Peter as a "stumbling block" and not a firm fundation for its church revelead as "this rock". To me "this rock" are all of us in union. The sand scatered in the beach is blowned away by the wind, it represents the weakness of the individual, alone we are at winds desire, if the sand could bound and unite it will be a rock, the rock is the union of many, the rock is heavy and the wind can't blow it away and it's the place we are all togheter. The curch should be founded on our union, i think it means much more than a rock representing a building.

Peace,
MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

Edited by MAIA (12/31/01 04:38 AM)

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Re: Catholic church, rock of stability and love! [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #505848 -

dr luther was professor of bible at wittenburg... he did not "cut out" the apocryphal books, merely placed them between the "old" testament and the "new" testament... (the "apocryphal" means hidden -- there were no indiications of hebrew vesions of those scriptures...
the evangeliical church (lutheranism) also taught the priesthood of all believers... and salvation by grace, not by works...
as to simon peter, it has been suggested that he was nicknamed for "pebble" because his wavering strength of faith...
as to mary being "queen of heaven" and "mother of god" well, the people wanted their goddesses back.. and if all they got was a perpetual virgin, well, that is due to scriptural misinterpretation...
~~
ummmm, if anybody is interested in an exploration of the problems of literalism as regards scripture, check out bishop spong's _rescuing the bible from fundamentalism_
~~
(it's a pity that rapid communction was not available during luther's time --- because he was interested in working out some sort of understanding with the eastern churches, after his split with rome..)


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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Re: Catholic church, rock of stability and love! [Re: MAIA]
    #505957 -

For clarificqation purposes I'll try to explain a little more. The word 'peter' translates to 'rock'. Jesus changed Simon's name to 'rock' and said on this rock I'll build my church. Peter's actual name is 'rock'.

Here's a bit about papal authority from: http://www.ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp?source=/ewtn/experts/conference.htm

Papal Primacy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The doctrine of papal primacy upholds the divine authority of the Successor of St. Peter to rule over the entire Church with ordinary and immediate jurisdiction. Two Magisterial texts are key to understanding its supreme nature and the obligation of all who are not invincibly ignorant of this truth to submit to Papal authority for the sake of their salvation.
Pope Boniface VIII, in his Bull Unam Sanctum (1302), spelled out the doctrine of the necessity of the Church for salvation and with it the necessity of submission to the Roman Pontiff. Regarding the primacy of authority of Peter and his successors he stated:

But this authority, although it is given to man and is exercised by man, is not human, but rather divine, and has been given by the divine Word to Peter himself and to his successors in him, whom the Lord acknowledged an established rock, when he said to Peter himself: Whatsoever you shall bind etc. [Matt. 16:19]. Therefore, whosoever resists this power so ordained by God, resists the order of God [cf. Rom. 13:2] ... Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.

As with all principles of morality, God does not hold the invincibly ignorant of the truth culpable for failing to live by them. Thus, Pope Pius IX could say regarding the salvation of those outside the Church, and thus also those who do not submit to the Roman Pontiff,

We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?

This same Pope convened the First Vatican Council, which in addition to defining papal infallibility also defined papal primacy. Both doctrines point the faithful to the necessity of union with the Successor of Peter. Infallibility directs our attention to the unifying role of the Pope in matters of faith, and primacy to that role with respect to sacramental and other ecclesiastical disciplines.

...all the faithful of Christ must believe "that the Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold primacy over the whole world, and that the Pontiff of Rome himself is the successor of the blessed Peter, the chief of the apostles, and is the true vicar of Christ and head of the whole Church and faith, and teacher of all Christians; and that to him was handed down in blessed Peter, by our Lord Jesus Christ, full power to feed, rule, and guide the universal Church, just as is also contained in the records of the ecumenical Councils and in the sacred canons.

... the faithful of whatever rite and dignity, both as separate individuals and all together, are bound by a duty of hierarchical submission and true obedience, not only in things pertaining to faith and morals, but also in those which pertain to the discipline and government of the Church spread over the whole world, so that the Church of Christ, protected not only by the Roman Pontiff, but by the unity of communion as well as of the profession of the same faith is one flock under the one highest shepherd. This is the doctrine of Catholic truth from which no one can deviate and keep his faith and salvation... [Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Vatican Council I, 1870]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: Catholic church, rock of stability and love! [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #506473 -

"Dogmatic Constitution on the Church"

Are this the ones you put your faith on ? Is this your tabernacle of knowlodge ?

Look, i think we deviate a little on how the way we see our bound with above. I just don't get why people believe so much in the institution rather believing and trying to find the nature of god. If you believe so deeply in your church follow its teachings and dogmas, your free to, but believe me there's much more to know from Christ teachings than the catholic dogmatic way to interpert things.

Peace,
MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #506503 -

In Tampa/St. Pete, the catholic church wants to tear down an old historic cathedral (instead of just renovating it) so they can build a 8 MILLION dollar Super-Cathomart. It seems like they feel a little insecure about their teachings so they gotta make up for it with flashy buildings and promises of eternity in heaven for just 10%.
I don't think man can come close to grasping the concept of God, and I know organized religion (esp. catholism) isn't any more in the right direction.


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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.

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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: ]
    #508827 -

shroomism: i want to see some historical references to your claim that jesus taught reincarnation (i don't consider "the aquarian gospel" a source), i don't belief it is correct.
And even if jesus taught everything you think he did and the church misrepresented everything... it still doesn't matter: going 'outside' can be a way too... surrender yourself to god, jesus: voila.

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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: alphatrion]
    #508894 -

Good luck Shroomism says alot of nice things but I need proof to beleive and thats one thing he never offers, I know not everything is provable(not even close) and understand that, but things like Jesus taught reincarnation and meditation, what did he dream that? there should be some sort of proof, where is it?


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Ours is not a better way, ours is merely another way.

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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: PsilocyberSpace]
    #508896 -

It was in the Bible. It's not anymore. The proof is gone...ask the Catholics. I'll try to find proof of this statement but I doubt I will find it. Perhaps in a book somewhere...
Anyways, who cares what I think?
Just believe what the Church tells you

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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: PsilocyberSpace]
    #508901 -

Anyways, proof is overrated.
Prove to me that we exist, then we'll talk.

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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: ]
    #508905 -

Easy man, I'm on your side, I don't find truth in the bible or any church and I'm not waiting for Christ to be born next door or anything.

I would love for it to be true, and it surely could be, I may have came off wrong there, but, I would just love to have something material to prove this, soemthing to toss in the face of people like rail_gun. To me personally I know reincarnation is truth and meditation well anyone who practices knows how well that is.


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Ours is not a better way, ours is merely another way.

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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: ]
    #509005 -

Exactly, proof is erelevant. Prove that we are even here at all.
Interesting thing though, I watched a documentary last night where a scientist at, oh shit I cant remember what school, but anyway he proved that what he called "consciousness survival", he proved that the consciousness survives death. I cant tell you all that he said because it would take to long. But he proved that your "soul" survives death and is "re-absorbed" in to, what he called some sort of "energy cycle". The proof is in the pudding. Although I ran it by some members of my family, and they simple said "alright they finally proved the existance of satan". I dont know, its kind useless talking to closed minded brainwashed christians, in they're defence they are almost comical in a way. I think finally modern science will catch up with ancient philosophies, Im so glad.


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" I have decided to become an example for others, although I have never been one for moderation. I have decided never to eat LSD while asleep, never to refrain while awake, and to never eat less than 10 hits at a time."

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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: ArchDruid]
    #509272 -

Me too :laugh:

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Re: olic church, rock of stability and loveThe cath! [Re: ]
    #509504 -

Every religion at one point in time has used violence to further their view or to disipline their members. Yet "GOD - Yawey - Ala (my spelling is poor - I know) or whatever you call the "Supreme Being" says basically PLAY NICE!!! I don't understand. Could it be that organized religion is the Anti Christ. Islam is mad at Christianity, The English and Irish are fighting, the Jews are fighting Islam. Where are the religions following GOD's first law - Play Nice. I think maybe I'll just talk to my best friend - the Spirit inside me and whoever put it there.

Please PLAY NICE!!!!!

Bob


--------------------
.

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Re: absolute proof, sorry to all the catholics out the [Re: Jammer]
    #509780 -

ALL religions are bs. How could anyone back then and even now know the ways of the universe. Devout christians piss me off, they are stubborn against any other beliefs. Also the reason they have a heap of jesus songs is because to sing you have to memorise the words "jesus is good"...... Simple Brainwashing. BTW i think i might be god

Edited by WaktSniper (01/04/02 02:54 AM)

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