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truth?
    #629756 -

If someone or something showed you physical evidence of the truth of whatever it maybe, that you consider the truth is.. would you believe it to be the actual truth? If so, why? this is aimed more at the logical thinkers

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Re: truth? [Re: deep_umbra]
    #629860 -

Could you please give us a more definite definition of "the truth"? i dont really know what to think without one.


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Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton

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Re: truth? [Re: deep_umbra]
    #629865 -

Hmm... Depends.

How outrageous is this purported truth?
How good is the supporting evidence?

And because I am such a rigorously logical thinker, I would need to personally confirm this purported truth using a ouija board and the entrails of a goat.


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Re: truth? [Re: Clark]
    #629872 -

Well.. i dunno how outrageous it is.. but the supporting evidence is top notch, being 100% correct according to frank shanks..

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Re: truth? [Re: jono]
    #629884 -

the truth as in.. the answer to why we are here, why the universe exists, blah blah, etc..

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Re: truth? [Re: deep_umbra]
    #629889 -

Well, out with it man! I'm on the edge of my bar stool.


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Re: truth? [Re: deep_umbra]
    #629894 -

It depends on the so called 'evidence.' If you are referring to crop circles as evidence of extraterrestrial visitations I would say the evidence is weak. But if you were to allow me to examine the corpse of an alien with numerous puncture wounds from the farmer's pitchfork, I'd believe it.


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Please clean the dogma from your shoes before entering.

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Re: truth? [Re: Clark]
    #629898 -

heh.. out with what? I'm not saying I have the truth..

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Re: truth? [Re: EclecticSeeker]
    #629900 -

In reply to:

It depends on the so called 'evidence.'



The so called evidence is the 100% correct evidence of what the truth is..

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Re: truth? [Re: deep_umbra]
    #629913 -

I'll always accept good evidence.


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Please clean the dogma from your shoes before entering.

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Re: truth? [Re: deep_umbra]
    #629958 -

any physical object would supply you with those answers.
you just have to look closely and carefully, it's all there.

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Re: truth? [Re: mr crisper]
    #630199 -

For me...
There is no abstract formula to my acceptance of a particular "truth". As much of my knowledge as possible is grounded in my own experience, so any ACTUAL evidence that supports a "truth" would be quite handy.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: truth? [Re: deep_umbra]
    #630269 -

We will never be able to know the truth!! We will just find a truth that will fit to our logical sense!!!
I hope I make sense to you...


--------------------
I see trees of green, psylocibe mushrooms too
I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself what a wonderful world

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Re: truth? [Re: mr crisper]
    #630598 -

In reply to:

any physical object would supply you with those answers.
you just have to look closely and carefully, it's all there.



so if i look at any object, ill understand why the universe exists? right...

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Re: truth? [Re: Sclorch]
    #630603 -

In reply to:

There is no abstract formula to my acceptance of a particular "truth". As much of my knowledge as possible is grounded in my own experience, so any ACTUAL evidence that supports a "truth" would be quite handy.



Sounds cool sclorch.. but just wondering what it would be quite handy for?

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Re: truth? [Re: dumlovesyou]
    #630664 -

dum is not dum

you want the truth?

your homo sapien minds can't handle the truth!
but you want it anyway, don't you???

only the truth can truly know the truth, and that's impossible because nothing is true (think about it!)

but to answer your question - i would think that whatever you showed me was true could be treated as the truth in order to help me achieve whatever i was trying to achieve. until you showed me it was really false. then i would no longer use it as truth when deciding my actions.

knowledge is a tool, not an answer.


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Re: truth? [Re: Amoeba665]
    #630678 -

yeah .. so I think we can agree that searching for the real truth is useless.. which means making up your own stuff is as good as it gets..

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Re: truth? [Re: deep_umbra]
    #630784 -

but.. in the process of making up your own truths, you are still searching, aren't you? the difference is, you are searching in your mind instead of in books or your environment. so why limit yourself like that, why not include external sources in your search? you may find it easier than reinventing the wheel.. besides, even if you do decide to reinvent the wheel, maybe you personally will just create an oldsmobile (which is a nice make, don't get me wrong) whereas by including pieces found elsewhere, you can put together a hovercraft. make sense?


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Re: truth? [Re: Amoeba665]
    #630906 -

makes sense.. but personally, i dont bother building cars or hovercrafts or the like, coz they always seem break at one time or another.. and when they break down, you realise you didn't really know where you were goin in the first place.. so it doesnt really matter

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Re: truth? [Re: deep_umbra]
    #630955 -

Should I get my galoshes?
It's getting a little thick in here...


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: truth? [Re: Sclorch]
    #631058 -

Agreed. Incomprehensible gibberish cloaked as philosophy is still incomprehensible gibberish.

Come on people. Attempting to sound profound is not the same as being profound. Why not share what you personally have discovered so far instead of trying to impress?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: truth? [Re: Sclorch]
    #631092 -

nar.. ugg boots..

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Re: truth? [Re: Swami]
    #631096 -

Incomprehensible gibberish? Trying to impress? haha, you've read it all wrong there.. and I am trying to share with you what I have discovered.. it's the fact that people might aswell stop searching for, or claiming knowledge of the absolute truth because if physical evidence can't convince someone of it, what can? gist of the incoherant rambling is this: like everything, the absolute truth is constantly changing (and thats the truth haha) .. Come on people, screw your heads on..

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Re: truth? [Re: deep_umbra]
    #631103 -

I choose the truth that suits my purpose, not that which the universe tricks me into believing.

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Re: truth? [Re: Nomad]
    #631120 -

nice 1

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Re: truth? [Re: Nomad]
    #631243 -

*squish squash*
"Hey Joe Bob! Toss me that thar muck rake."
*squish squash*
"Nothin' like squashing aroun' in the pig pen on a nice spring day. Ahh..."


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: truth? [Re: Swami]
    #632057 -

So, Swami.. If someone or something showed you physical evidence of the absolute truth, would you believe it to be the absolute truth?

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Re: truth? [Re: deep_umbra]
    #632170 -


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Re: truth? [Re: deep_umbra]
    #632190 -

I know I'm not Swami, but what is the absolute truth? Is this what you earlier referred to as "the answer to why we are here, why the universe exists, blah blah, etc..."

What kind of evidence do you have in mind? You stated, "the supporting evidence is top notch, being 100% correct according to frank shanks." and "The so called evidence is the 100% correct evidence of what the truth is.." Who is Frank Shanks, and what is his standard for 'top notch evidence'?


I prefer grain based substrates, they don't stink up the kitchen.

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Re: truth? [Re: ]
    #632192 -

if anyone thought had physical evidence of the "truth" i would surely laugh my fucking ass of at them.

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Re: truth? [Re: ]
    #632218 -

In reply to:

What kind of evidence do you have in mind? You stated, "the supporting evidence is top notch, being 100% correct according to frank shanks." and "The so called evidence is the 100% correct evidence of what the truth is.." Who is Frank Shanks, and what is his standard for 'top notch evidence'?



Frank shanks is someone I just made up to indicate a person or thing showing you the 100% absolute truthful evidence of why (insert question about universe here).. For instance.. if frank shanks showed you physical evidence as to why the universe exists and why we exist and all that and claimed that it is the 100% truth(which it happened to be).. would you believe it to be the absolute truth to those answers?

Examples of evidence could be frank shanks taking you in his space ship to the center of the universe and showing you and alien pressing buttons and pulling leavers because the universe is actually a (computer?)game this alien made up and hes playing it.. and the alien tells you you're just part of the computer game hes playing and proves it to you.. do you believe it to be the absolute truth? ..and yes I just made that up..

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Re: truth? [Re: vivid]
    #632228 -

That's a picture of Earth

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Re: truth? [Re: ]
    #632240 -

Earth is pretty sweet.. but how is that picture the absolute truth?.. why not post a picture of the sun? or the moon? or the whole universe for that matter..

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Re: truth? [Re: deep_umbra]
    #632247 -

Its not the absolute truth. Its a piece of it. Absolute truth is subjective from our perspective.

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Re: truth? [Re: deep_umbra]
    #632250 -

How about this? Its the Andromeda galaxy.



I think its pretty

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Re: truth? [Re: ]
    #632275 -

In reply to:

Its not the absolute truth. Its a piece of it. Absolute truth is subjective from our perspective.



Yeah, my big toe is a piece of it aswell.. did you know that? the pictures aren't really relevant.. or should I post an image of my big toe?

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Re: truth? [Re: deep_umbra]
    #632306 -

Go for it

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Re: truth? [Re: ]
    #632406 -

That galaxy is absolutely pretty.

Searching for some personal ideals of truth is an important part of my life. However, I do agree with you, Deep Umbra, that claiming to know some deep truth, or trying to convey it to another (heat transfer?) is pointless.

hongomon

Edited by hongomon (05/16/02 12:36 AM)

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Re: truth? [Re: hongomon]
    #632489 -

That's not even the galaxy we live in. It's far far away.

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Re: truth? [Re: deep_umbra]
    #632558 -

I like this thread.

Examples of evidence could be frank shanks taking you in his space ship to the center of the universe and showing you and alien pressing buttons and pulling leavers because the universe is actually a (computer?)game this alien made up and hes playing it.. and the alien tells you you're just part of the computer game hes playing and proves it to you.. do you believe it to be the absolute truth?

Well.. if something like this would happen to, say, Shroomism, he would probably just say he knew that already, and continue with whatever he was doing before Frank Shanks came along. On the other hand, if this happened to, say, Swami (damn, I love that you have these stereotypical beings here at the Shroomery ), he would probably declare himself mentally insane. The point is that the only absolute objective undeniable truth involved is: "Frank Shanks showed me aliens that played a computer game." Anything else, including things like "Aliens exist" or "The universe is a computer game" would be an interpretation, and as such, not necessarily true or false. I would argue that experience is the only truth (i.e. the truth is within you), and that distinctions like "true" or "false" don't make sense when we are dealing with an interpretation. When stated as a model, however, an interpretation could be "good" or "bad", depending if it makes predictions that become true (that is, can be experienced).

For example... (cross-referencing threads again)

When I first experienced ego-loss, I decided that the assumption that my outer layers of skin are where "Me" ends and "The Universe" begins, is a very, very arbitrary one. When Swami made the same experience, he was willing to attest to himself, basically, something equal to braindeath ("complete neuronal disruption" was the exact term). Now, no criticism there. Swami is absolutely entitled to his theory. But I argue that the only truth involved is: "There is a state of ego-loss." Everything else is interpretation, and, as such, cannot be true or false. A good interpretation of ego-loss, however, would be one that shows an easy way to experience ego-loss for everybody. Neither of us can do that. So there.

Yet I think that a lot of pain could be spared if we would just stop arguing which is the true model of the universe. Maybe - just maybe - we could, then, enjoy other people's ideas as genuine human attempts to make sense of a universe that doesn't make sense. Swami's ideas about ego-loss, for example, gave me a good laugh.

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Re: truth? [Re: Nomad]
    #632646 -

When I first experienced ego-loss, I decided that the assumption that my outer layers of skin are where "Me" ends and "The Universe" begins, is a very, very arbitrary one.
I have to challenge you on this one.

Webster - arbitrary:
based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something.

Where our skin ends seems to be a fairly universal constraint of what "we" are and is certainly intrinsic to the human body.

You buy clothes to fit YOUR BODY. You are concerned with YOUR appearance, ideas, sexual attraction, possessions, health, wealth, etc.

When someone close to you dies, you do NOT feel anything until you are made aware of it at some later time. It is not simultaneous. You do NOT feel what the other felt, only the emotional impact that it will have on your future which are mostly selfish feelings of loss. Your body is certainly unharmed by their injury or demise. You sensed nothing about 911 NYC until you flipped on the TV. If there was no news you would be totally unaware.

This speaks of our awareness ending at the senses of our body. Now we may be dependent on 100,000 other people to build our car, grow and ship our food, etc., but dependency and oneness are entirely different concepts.

Yet I think that a lot of pain could be spared if we would just stop arguing...
If we are all one, who is arguing with whom?

On a side note, arguing (frequently and incorrectly misconstrued as bickering) is an accepted part of philosophical debate. To deny that aspect is ignorance. (Can't we do math WITHOUT numbers?)


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: truth? [Re: Nomad]
    #632720 -

[image]http://heritage.stsci.edu/2001/05/big.html[/image]

Had to put this one!


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Simple cries pleasantly plea for a friendly follower as wisely whispers request to reveal the water's wandering

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Re: truth? [Re: Epignostic]
    #632737 -

A little too big, I guess?



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Simple cries pleasantly plea for a friendly follower as wisely whispers request to reveal the water's wandering

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The jokes roll forth [Re: Swami]
    #632863 -

I love it. Swami is taking issue with ambiguous terminology. Ha!

Maybe Nomad has a "particular" definition of ambiguous in mind. Surely you can't object to that! At least Nomad's is a little more apparent from the context.

hongomon

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Re: truth? [Re: Swami]
    #632922 -

Webster - arbitrary: based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something.

Where our skin ends seems to be a fairly universal constraint of what "we" are and is certainly intrinsic to the human body.

To define yourself as the part of the universe within your skin is determined by individual preference (it's a definition), by convenience (it makes buying clothes easier), not by necessity (you won't die if you don't), and, finally, not by the intrinsic nature of the human body, because the intrinsic nature of the human body would be everything we can experience with this body, including ego-loss. It's arbitrary. It can be a very useful thing to do, but it's arbitrary.

You are concerned with YOUR appearance, ideas, sexual attraction, possessions, health, wealth, etc.

I'm not concerned with at least three of the things you listed above, but I won't tell you which ones

When someone close to you dies, you do NOT feel anything until you are made aware of it at some later time. It is not simultaneous.

I never claimed it is. In another post (now lost forever) I designed a simple universe which consists of you and a tree. If you take the tree away, the effect is exactly the same as if you destroy parts of your brain. Thus, I claim that the tree is part of your consciousness, a part of what makes "you". If you kill the tree, you kill a part of yourself. The very fact that you feel pain when someone else dies seems to strengthen this idea.

This speaks of our awareness ending at the senses of our body. Now we may be dependent on 100,000 other people to build our car, grow and ship our food, etc., but dependency and oneness are entirely different concepts.

I agree, but so are awareness and consciousness. I didn't claim that I'm aware of everything in the universe. But since I'm also not aware of most things that happen in my subconscious brain, the universe can still be a part of myself, even if I am not aware of everything which happens inside it.

If we are all one, who is arguing with whom?

A zen master sat quietly fanning himself with air. A disciple came along and asked, "Master, if the wind is eternal and everywhere, why are you still fanning yourself?" The master replied: "You do well understand that the wind is eternal, but you have yet to grasp the fact that it is everywhere."

On a side note, arguing (frequently and incorrectly misconstrued as bickering) is an accepted part of philosophical debate. To deny that aspect is ignorance.

Which, I assume, was related to the quote above:

Yet I think that a lot of pain could be spared if we would just stop arguing...

I admire your cleverness, but it's still a misquote (but a clever one, indeed). What follows is: ... stop arguing which is the true model of the universe.

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Re: truth? [Re: Epignostic]
    #632933 -

html won't work


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Re: truth? [Re: Nomad]
    #633050 -

The very fact that you feel pain when someone else dies seems to strengthen this idea [of oneness].
Not at all. There is no pain felt upon the death of another; only on the idea of their death. This is an important distinction.

My ENRON stock goes under and I can no longer buy my new 500HP Dodge Viper, so I feel pain. Pain is merely a refusal to accept "what is"; it is hardly an indicator of oneness.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: The jokes roll forth [Re: hongomon]
    #633061 -

I love it. Swami is taking issue with ambiguous terminology. Ha!
I love it. hongomon is trying to enter a gunfight with blanks.

hongoman has a serious reading disability in that he cannot tell the difference between "arbitrary" and "ambiguous".



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: The jokes roll forth [Re: Swami]
    #633085 -

hongoman has a serious reading disability

Tell me about it...
Hongo- I'm not trying to pick on you if have a diagnosed learning disability. So, please, let us know if you do have a handicap (I mean this in an extremely polite way).


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: The jokes roll forth [Re: Swami]
    #633212 -

Arrgh! Well, at least it's nice to know that even when I put one word--ambiguous--when another--arbitrary--is intended, my meaning is not lost in ambiguity.

I could challenge your definition of "serious reading disability," (for a malapropism??) but why bother?

Furthermore, Nomad has shown very well that he was not arbitrary in his selection of "arbitrary."

hongomon

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Re: The jokes roll forth [Re: hongomon]
    #633278 -

I could challenge your definition of "serious reading disability," (for a malapropism??) but why bother?

Doubtful.
But hey, if you get a kick out of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, then by all means....


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Question sclurchster [Re: Sclorch]
    #633652 -

Who the fuck are you anyway? Swami's little sidekick? The Sancho to the Don? I've been reading back into the archives here and I've noticed a pattern.

Well, ya got me. It took me a while to realize that Swami the cake contaminant, the dude my issues are with, is in the john or something, and the little yes-man sclurchster is eating the leftovers.

I'm done for now. With both of you. Maybe another time. There are some really interesting people on this forum (like I said I've been reading back), and no offense, but you're not two of them. It's not just that you seem to enjoy the battle more than I do, it's not just that half of what you say illicits a "heh?" or a snort and not much more, it's not just the irratating chimera-like appearances you often make, and it's not just the fact that I already feel guilty enough for the contention I've brought in. It's a combination of these things.

See ya

hongomon

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Re: The jokes roll forth [Re: Swami]
    #633653 -

are you ignoring me swami? or you just don't want to answer the question?

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Re: The jokes roll forth [Re: deep_umbra]
    #633659 -

Maybe sclorch can answer for him.


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Re: truth? [Re: ]
    #633681 -

In reply to:

That's not even the galaxy we live in. It's far far away.



Oh! I thought NASA had drivin their spaceshuttle 20000 lightyears out there to take a photo of our galaxy..

hehe sorry

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Re: The jokes roll forth [Re: hongomon]
    #633687 -

In reply to:

Maybe sclorch can answer for him.



Maybe.. but I think Sclorch is too busy hanging out in a pig pen playing in mud or something.. possibly with swami?

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Re: Question sclurchster [Re: hongomon]
    #633890 -

Baby killer...

I had a girlfriend like you once... well, she was less bitchy.
Same emotional rollercoaster though. Oh well....


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Question sclurchster [Re: Sclorch]
    #633895 -

I thought the point of this board was spirituality and philosophy. I fail to see where "and personal attacks" comes in. Why cant people share ideas and arguments, with respect, without getting personal, even if it is tempting.
Some people wont ever change their point of view, even with rational arguments, but venting the resulting frustration in a personal attack never achieves anything (that I've discovered anyway, If someone can show me evidence of it, then I might be willing to change my mind)

Just a thought.

Cheers,
Jono


--------------------
Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton

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Re: Question sclurchster [Re: jono]
    #634142 -

I think you're right, Jono. I apologize. I may slip back some day, but in the meantime I'll try a little harder.

peace,

hongomon

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Let the Bong Decide [Re: jono]
    #634299 -

I thought the point of this board was spirituality and philosophy. I fail to see where "and personal attacks" comes in. Why cant people share ideas and arguments, with respect, without getting personal, even if it is tempting.


But he... he.. he starte...
*pointing finger at ______*
Aw.... fug it!
*click click burbleburbleburble*
It's cool man...


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: truth? [Re: deep_umbra]
    #634840 -

Something like a flash appeared when I read this words written by SWAMI: (thanks swami):

"You buy clothes to fit YOUR BODY. You are concerned with YOUR appearance..."

That's what I wanted to say with the phrase I stated before. The truth is nothing but something that fits our brain! I mean we will never consider that deep_umbrella is not human No ofense. I hope you understand what I mean. It's hard for me to understand others also!


--------------------
I see trees of green, psylocibe mushrooms too
I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself what a wonderful world

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Re: truth? [Re: dumlovesyou]
    #635807 -

In reply to:

That's what I wanted to say with the phrase I stated before. The truth is nothing but something that fits our brain!



eh? so the truth is nothing, but something.. that fits our brains.. so is nothing fitting our brains or something?

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Re: truth? [Re: deep_umbra]
    #635890 -

It's something that fits our understanding... I don't know how to explain either, but i think you understood. If you don't understand something you won't consider it truth.. Maybe something like that..


--------------------
I see trees of green, psylocibe mushrooms too
I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself what a wonderful world

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Re: truth? [Re: dumlovesyou]
    #636688 -

how can the truth fit our understanding when noone knows what it is? or do you mean the concept of truth? in that case.. the concept of anything can fit anything so what exactly are you trying to get at here?

what I think you're trying to say is that the truth is ultimately made up by each individual to fit their own agendas.. which is what this thread is originally about anyway..


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Re: my dream [Re: dumlovesyou]
    #637368 -

I had this dream a few months ago, so I don't remember everything very clearly and I'll just tell about the part that was truly extraordinary, I have never experienced anything like this before.

It was around my home which is on a hill, there is a park and a forest very near. There is a bloody war going on in my town but I don't have a gun, I seemed to have misplaced it somewhere. I leave the front lines to go look for my gun and I end up going inside my house (which was very near the front line). So when I'm in my house I go to the bathroom and I see my gun inside leaning against the wall. I am happy I found my gun and I go inside my kitchen and then living room to tell my mother and grandma that I'm going back to the front lines. (This is now the part of the dream that I can't really describe in words accurately but I'll do my best) When I tell them that I'm going back, they inform me that my father has been killed. I am suddenly OVERWHELMED by this deep sorrow inside my body, this sadness was so deep and powerful it felt like I was feeling the sorrow and pain of all the millions of men, women, and children who have ever died in battle. I completely broke down, fell on my knees, crying uncontrollably, I lifted my arms in the air, I looked up and howled the most painful word I could think of....."why?"

Then I woke up feeling relieved but very sad, I almost began to cry again.

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Re: truth? [Re: deep_umbra]
    #638991 -

Truth is simple !

I have told you this before but OK :

Experience is truth and words lies (",)

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Re: truth? [Re: Drisch]
    #639006 -

Sorry, but that doesn't make sense. Could you elaborate?

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