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Anonymous

Truth?
    #869953 - 09/08/02 11:19 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Lately I have been thinking about the various ways that we, as humans, figure out what is truth.

There are a variety of answers to this question, some are valid and some are not. What I am interested in here is not some philosophical treatise on the nature of truth but rather what it means to each one of us.

For those interested in this exploration this might be a very useful thread. I invite all who are interested in this topic to participate as much as they are able.

I'll start by saying that not all truths can be shoehorned into a 'scientific' paradigm or schema. In other words, you may know something is true without analyzing it using scientific instruments. Various experiences that we all have fit into this category. For example, I know that I love various people. The fact of that evidences itself in reality by the actions I take toward them. I don't use beakers and test tubes to know this. I simply observe the actions I make and conclude it is true.

Other ideas?

If we really are sincere about knowing the truth this thread should prove to be interesting in the comments made to it.

Cheers,


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #869983 - 09/08/02 11:41 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that no one can know what absolute truth is, because it's all subjective to individual perception. The only way you can know an absolute truth is to step beyond the boundaries of your self and encompass all things, then you will know. But who can do this? Some think God can. (God = absolute truth).
But if your talking about "individual truth", then I think everyone knows that... (or thinks they do)  :grin:


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: Truth? [Re: Adamist]
    #870007 - 09/08/02 11:52 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I think that is the point the MR Mushrooms is trying to make. Truth isn't something that can be measured ....."EVER". It is a very subjective thing and what is true to me may not be true to others. Now for the sake of efficiency and progress we try to hold some things as true i.e. laws of thermodynamics. But that again is made with imperfect instruments by imperfect people with imperfect observations. Since we have to start somewhere to be able to logically communicate with one another then I choose to believe that the laws of thermodynamics are valid and so on.

I differ slightly on the love issue with MR Mushrooms. He says that due to his actions toward people, that validates his love. I say that the nature of my heart validates my love and is proof (to me. My truth). Someone who hates someone can mimic these same actions (maybe in hopes of gaining something) and they certainly don't love those people.


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OfflineViBrAnT
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Re: Truth? [Re: Adamist]
    #870020 - 09/08/02 12:01 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

The kind of truths i accept i see as interchangable. i believe gravity is a truth however i do not count out the possibility of consciousness evolution as a truth. who is to say that one day our consciousness will not open up the possibility of levitation and all sorts of other energy work, which would be percieved as illusion by many here on earth presently.

As we all have discussed before here in this forum, truth is a touchy subject but here is my go at it. Perceptions create truths, seeing is not necassarily believing anymore because of the lack of full physical sensory input through all 5 senses as in a percieved alien encounter.

Example: lets take a spoon for instance, you can feel it, you can see it, you can taste it, you can smell it, and you can hear it if you bang it against the table therefore it is real, but what about that percieved alien encounter? what truths can be derived from it with lack of physical sensory input? Just because the experience is communicating through input of the less used metaphysical senses doesnt disprove the reality or truth of the experience for me.



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" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "




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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: Adamist]
    #870072 - 09/08/02 12:32 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

So you are saying that the fact that you know you exist is not an absolute truth?


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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: chemkid]
    #870077 - 09/08/02 12:36 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I say that the nature of my heart validates my love and is proof (to me. My truth). Someone who hates someone can mimic these same actions (maybe in hopes of gaining something) and they certainly don't love those people.

So emotion is enough to validate your love? Does that mean that if you treat a person badly you can still say you love them because you ]feel a feeling of love towards them? Love without action is a poor kind of love.

I wasn't talking about observing the actions of someone else I was only referring to myself. There is a difference. However, that said, if you say you love someone and I see you mistreat them I will say you do not love them.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #870079 - 09/08/02 12:39 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

My existence is an individual perception that I suspect to be truth, but it could very well not be.

For example, I could exist not as this self (body), but as a larger self, and my individual existence would just be an illusion.


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Edited by Adamist (09/08/02 12:40 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #870080 - 09/08/02 12:39 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Good thoughts.

Truth needn't be a "touchy" subject unless one has an ego attachment to a certain "perceived" truth. People with ego attachments are "touchy" about anything they perceive as a threat.


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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: Adamist]
    #870086 - 09/08/02 12:42 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

So you may not exist, eh?  This is good news for the rest of us. :smile:

How would you determine if you were just a part of a larger construct?  And why would that negate the fact you that you exist as an individual?

Gawd, I love talking to people that are not sure they exist!

Please continue.


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #870089 - 09/08/02 12:44 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I agree that love for a person is an action not necessarily an emotion. You say if "If I say I love someone but hit them then you would disagree". This is not necessarily true either. This is why truth is subjective like you stated. When I was younger I used to beat my sister up all the time. I assure you that I love her. I am sure that her truth was that I don't love her. For an outsider looking in, their truth was that I didn't love her. My truth was that I was an immature boy who couldn't intelligently act out his emotions (rage mixed with love) but in my heart I still love and cared for my sister greatly. So again, my truth isn't necessarily someone elses truth.

To play devils advocate: How do you know that what you saw was true? Maybe your vision was blurred ( for any reason) and what you saw as a hit to her face was really my hand brushing hair out of her face. Cheesey example I know, but it further illustrates why your thread is valid.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Truth? [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #870090 - 09/08/02 12:45 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

but what about that percieved alien encounter? what truths can be derived from it with lack of physical sensory input?

I have had encounters with what I perceived to be seperate entities and sometimes I did feel them on a physical input level. (For example I would feel them doing things to the insides of my body, head, etc.) But is this truth? I don't know. Just because something is sensed with all of the senses doesn't absolutely mean that it's true, but rather it strongly supports that it is.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #870095 - 09/08/02 12:49 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

How would you determine if you were just a part of a larger construct? And why would that negate the fact you that you exist as an individual?

I don't know, I guess you would have to change your perception to the perception of this larger construct. This wouldn't negate your existence as an individual, but it would demonstrate that individual existence is not all there is to the picture.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #870132 - 09/08/02 01:07 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Existence is the only Abolute Truth that I know.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #870165 - 09/08/02 01:33 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Okay the way I look at it is that existence is an absolute truth, but restricting that truth to this individual self-existence would not be an absolute truth, because it does not cover all possible existences. I could exist in many other places at the same time, but if I just said "this self is my only existence" that is a truth only to this perception.


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Edited by Adamist (09/08/02 01:37 PM)


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #870373 - 09/08/02 08:49 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

truth is what i experience in reality.

each one of us experiences a subset of reality, and therefore each one of us knows part of the whole truth.

if someone lies to you, it is true that they lied to you.

when truth is an experience, you will never convince another of the truths that you know, because there is no way to fully communicate an experience.


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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: chemkid]
    #870445 - 09/08/02 09:41 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Seems like you're caught between a rock and a hard place. :smile:

I think the distinction here resides in the definition of love.  There is familial love for one's family which is a type of affection and there is love that wants the best or highest good for someone.  In the instance of your sister and yourself I would say that you had familial affections for her but that you didn't, at times, act towards her in love.  This happens in the normal course of human interaction.  However, that being said it must be noted that a continual observation of abuse between two people indicates that the abuser does not love the person in a real way but only feels affection towarrds them.  We see this a lot in couples where one spouse physically abuses the other.  While it may be true that the abuser feels affection for the abused it is also true that that do not love them, at least not in any meaningful way.

This is not a case of 'my truth' versus 'your truth'.  Do you see what I mean?

Cheers, 


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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #870464 - 09/08/02 09:48 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I once stated in a thread that I could not think of even one 'Absolute Truth', and I maintain my stance.

However, I think this is a good thing. I would hate to think of Love or Beauty as a static notion.

As for Scientificky stuff, there is no way to 'know' they are accurate, since we are using our own limited perspective to set the guage. -OoD


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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: Adamist]
    #870482 - 09/08/02 09:57 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I have had encounters with what I perceived to be seperate entities and sometimes I did feel them on a physical input level. (For example I would feel them doing things to the insides of my body, head, etc.) But is this truth? I don't know. Just because something is sensed with all of the senses doesn't absolutely mean that it's true, but rather it strongly supports that it is.

I hear you. This is why I think it is necessary to include other tests for the existence of other beings such as the ones you have described. Those are very good points. For example, if I see something it may be an illusion or I may have perceived it incorrectly. Unexplained lights in the sky supports the theory of otherworldly beings but it is not enough evidence for us to conclude that they exist or that it is 'true' that they exist. We need something more. Do you agree or disagree?

In the instance of our own existence we have no only the affirming testimony of those that think we exist but we also have our own consciousness that affirms it as well. If we are conscious then we exist and in a meaningful way. To doubt that is to make no sense at all. We do need things to make some sense if we are to think that they are true. Do we not? Now that is not to say that we might not be in some way a part of some larger whole but that in itself does not negate the fact that we are aware of our own existence, i.e. conscious. Ipso facto, axiomatic. Bingo, please pass the cheese.

Cheers,


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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: Adamist]
    #870486 - 09/08/02 09:58 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Okay the way I look at it is that existence is an absolute truth, but restricting that truth to this individual self-existence would not be an absolute truth, because it does not cover all possible existences. I could exist in many other places at the same time, but if I just said "this self is my only existence" that is a truth only to this perception.

Quite. See above.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #870509 - 09/08/02 10:09 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

We need something more. Do you agree or disagree?

I agree... but what?
Consider for example that these beings exist in "another dimension" somehow... how could we scientifically validate that?


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