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InvisibleRavus
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True Truths
    #2937326 - 07/28/04 07:30 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

If everything that humans see, hear, feel, touch, think, learn, and speak is just perception (which it is), then how can human beings believe anything is actually true? Without eyes there are no colors, without an ego there are no thoughts, and to the universe there is no right or wrong, good or evil, truth or falsehood. Everything simply is, and everything is perceived differently by different lifeforms at different times. We cannot know that what one human sees as red is actually blue to another, or that we are even seeing in color and not just shades of gray, because we only see what our ego observes and nothing else. All things that humans learn is just that, learned, and none of it has to be true.

What we have seen is just what we have observed. People will state truths and then to support them, say, "Well, can you disprove it?" Yet any true truths (redundant but distinguishing from the other truths we so often hear of) would need to be proven, upon which all proofs are human observations and thoughts and opinions. Facts are, at best, interpretations.

Would anyone speak of any undeniable truths that exist? And if no truths exist, what then does that say for the possibility of the universe?

"What then is truth? A mobile army of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms -- in short, a sum of human relations, which have been enhanced, transposed, and embellished poetically and rhetorically, and which after long use seem firm, canonical, and obligatory to a people: truths are illusions about which one has forgotten that is what they are; metaphors which are worn out and without sensuous power; coins which have lost their pictures and now matter only as metal, no longer as coins.

We still do not know where the urge for truth comes from; for as yet we have heard only of the obligation imposed by society that it should exist: to be truthful means using the customary metaphors - in moral terms, the obligation to lie according to fixed convention, to lie herd-like in a style obligatory for all..."

"What are man's truths ultimately? Merely his irrefutable errors."
-Friedrich Nietzsche


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: True Truths [Re: Ravus]
    #2937470 - 07/28/04 08:15 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

i think.
therefore i am
in the sense tthat my thought exists.
as for any truth in matter(material)
we have mathmatics.

i think truth should be more related to wether something serves a function or not.

weather or not god exists is arguable.
but either way, his suposed existence, or lack thereof, supports some function.

god is real(true) in the functional sense.
god has a measureable effect on the world.

the word truth may just be misused. like love for example.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: True Truths [Re: BleaK]
    #2937550 - 07/28/04 08:34 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

we have mathmatics.





We do? How do you know mathematics is true?

Mathematics is an observation, but we have no way of knowing whether it's really true or not. There's no way to truely prove it beyond our observing it, and since our observation is based on a human perspective, it doesn't always work. We see two sheep, we see if we take away one sheep there appears to be one sheep left, but how can we really know? Mathematics only seems to work to our senses- it's not always true. Quantum mechanics showed us that. (You shoot one electron, one electron takes one path, true? No, somehow the electron morphs into more than one and takes multiple paths- our known mathematics stops. We invent a new system, but the new system doesn't apply to other things, such as the "real world," so which is true?)

Quote:


i think truth should be more related to wether something serves a function or not.





Well in that case, isn't everything true? If it seems to exist, then it must seem to serve a function, even if it seems useless or we don't agree with it, like the War on Drugs  :smirk:

Quote:

weather or not god exists is arguable.
but either way, his suposed existence, or lack thereof, supports some function.




Yes, it helps the human ego. The human ego is perspective. Therefore God isn't necessarily true either, he would also be a perspective.

Quote:

the word truth may just be misused. like love for example. 




This is completely true... and yet also supports what I've been saying. Truth is semantics. If you think truth is just function, and I think truth is an undeniable force, and someone else thinks truth is anything that we see, then none of it is truth at all!

Perhaps there is no truth because we use semantics and observations. Perhaps we should try to see beyond them- but then we wouldn't observe anything, would we?

So if truth is only viewed beyond semantics, observations and an ego, then it is either nonexistent or a paradox that humanity can never hope to see, and either way we're fucked


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: True Truths [Re: Ravus]
    #2937583 - 07/28/04 08:43 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

great ideas here ravus! :thumbup:

if you are looking for a universal truth, I don't think you will ever find it, but that isn't to say truth doesn't exist. 

we all experience our own version of truth, do we not? 

what works for me might not work for you...but does that make my version, right or better or more true than yours??

I think that the sum of all everone's individual truth is "the truth"

this is why we will never know it.

and that's ok isn't it?  limitation is where it is at  :laugh:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: True Truths [Re: Ravus]
    #2937616 - 07/28/04 08:48 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Quote:

we have mathmatics.





We do? How do you know mathematics is true?

Mathematics is an observation, but we have no way of knowing whether it's really true or not. There's no way to truely prove it beyond our observing it, and since our observation is based on a human perspective, it doesn't always work. We see two sheep, we see if we take away one sheep there appears to be one sheep left, but how can we really know? Mathematics only seems to work to our senses- it's not always true. Quantum mechanics showed us that. (You shoot one electron, one electron takes one path, true? No, somehow the electron morphs into more than one and takes multiple paths- our known mathematics stops. We invent a new system, but the new system doesn't apply to other things, such as the "real world," so which is true?)

Quote:


i think truth should be more related to wether something serves a function or not.





Well in that case, isn't everything true? If it seems to exist, then it must seem to serve a function, even if it seems useless or we don't agree with it, like the War on Drugs  :smirk:

Quote:

weather or not god exists is arguable.
but either way, his suposed existence, or lack thereof, supports some function.




Yes, it helps the human ego. The human ego is perspective. Therefore God isn't necessarily true either, he would also be a perspective.

Quote:

the word truth may just be misused. like love for example. 




This is completely true... and yet also supports what I've been saying. Truth is semantics. If you think truth is just function, and I think truth is an undeniable force, and someone else thinks truth is anything that we see, then none of it is truth at all!

Perhaps there is no truth because we use semantics and observations. Perhaps we should try to see beyond them- but then we wouldn't observe anything, would we?

So if truth is only viewed beyond semantics, observations and an ego, then it is either nonexistent or a paradox that humanity can never hope to see, and either way we're fucked




mathematics is not observation.
math is logic. any given defined one, plus any other given defined, one, is two.

perception, is truth.
everything is true, because everything does serve a function.
just as u cannot prove something is true, u cannot prove the same thing (or something else) is false.

just because people perceive truth differently, doesnt mean its all false.

you try to prove things that are meaningless, like what color something is...
it doesnt matter, as long as we all percieve it.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: True Truths [Re: BleaK]
    #2937678 - 07/28/04 09:04 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Mathematics is not an observation? Then how did we start it? When the first primitive man began mathematics, he observed it. You believe logic and observations are separate, but they are not. Logic is what we draw from our observations, what we take out of the sum whole of our observations, and mathematics began by counting, maybe counting how many deer there are in front of us, and subtracting one when one disappears, or adding when another appears, and grew from there into the mathematics we know today. The entire field of mathematics is based on perception, otherwise humans wouldn't be able to perceive it and it wouldn't exist as far as we know!

This is why humans will not grasp truth. We only know what we perceive, and we build upon what we know. Everything simplifies down to what's happening around our five senses, and the conclusions we draw from them

Any given defined one plus one is two according to what we observe. Logic is what we draw from our observation, and since we can only observe everything from our viewpoint, it seems to be logical. But if we could see from a completely alien perspective, it's possible (I would say probable) mathematics would appear completely different

Why does everything become true just because it serves a function? It only serves a function to our senses, it's possible it doesn't even exist.

Truth can't be perception, because perception is not true. Do you know how many other waves there are out there that we cannot perceive? What you are experiencing is a tiny fraction of what's going on around you. Our five senses are nothing in the course of the universe, and because that is all we know, because the five senses are the keys and the doors and the tunnels to everything we know about the universe around us, we really can't know anything about the universe around us, only perceive to know something about it


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: True Truths [Re: Ravus]
    #2937729 - 07/28/04 09:16 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

realize your perception is limited, but that doesn't mean it's not there

just like we can only see a small portion of what's there.  we can't see radio waves, we can't se gamma waves, we can see red and blue though.  this is what I mean, our truths are only defined as individual


mathematics is just concepts, it is true because of how we defined it.  we have initial conditions that set the stardard on what equations we use.  don't jsut go off blindly saying mathematics isn't true :lol:

truth is on an individual basis.

like a "good" song. 

I think techno is the greatest music ever.  that's just my truth, not yours.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: True Truths [Re: kaiowas]
    #2937765 - 07/28/04 09:24 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I think techno is the greatest music ever. that's just my truth, not yours.




That's your opinion. The reason people believe in truth is because they use semantics to mistake opinions for truths

Mathematics isn't entirely false anyway, it works with our perception, but beyond that it isn't entirely true also. But if the definition of truth actually works out to be an opinion also, and everything is just semantics as it seems we argue over now, why bother thinking of truth in the first place? Most human mindsets are defined by semantics, so we cannot think beyond that much


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: True Truths [Re: BleaK]
    #2937839 - 07/28/04 09:38 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Excellant post there. A very good interpretation of truth. It must be noted that some truths are subject to external influences, but in spirit I agree with you.


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: True Truths [Re: Ravus]
    #2938003 - 07/28/04 10:21 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Mathematics is not an observation? Then how did we start it? When the first primitive man began mathematics, he observed it. You believe logic and observations are separate, but they are not. Logic is what we draw from our observations, what we take out of the sum whole of our observations, and mathematics began by counting, maybe counting how many deer there are in front of us, and subtracting one when one disappears, or adding when another appears, and grew from there into the mathematics we know today. The entire field of mathematics is based on perception, otherwise humans wouldn't be able to perceive it and it wouldn't exist as far as we know!





mathmatics may have started with observation. but it utilizes conception now.
i can "imagine" the number 1.
Quote:



This is why humans will not grasp truth. We only know what we perceive, and we build upon what we know. Everything simplifies down to what's happening around our five senses, and the conclusions we draw from them

Any given defined one plus one is two according to what we observe. Logic is what we draw from our observation, and since we can only observe everything from our viewpoint, it seems to be logical. But if we could see from a completely alien perspective, it's possible (I would say probable) mathematics would appear completely different




apearing differently doesnt mean falsely.
Quote:




Why does everything become true just because it serves a function? It only serves a function to our senses, it's possible it doesn't even exist.





if it is functioning it exists by proof that it is doing something measureable.
Quote:



Truth can't be perception, because perception is not true. Do you know how many other waves there are out there that we cannot perceive? What you are experiencing is a tiny fraction of what's going on around you. Our five senses are nothing in the course of the universe, and because that is all we know, because the five senses are the keys and the doors and the tunnels to everything we know about the universe around us, we really can't know anything about the universe around us, only perceive to know something about it




we may only perceive a fraction of all that "is". but that doesnt make what we percieve false. it just makes it incomplete.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: True Truths [Re: Ravus]
    #2938229 - 07/28/04 11:37 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Here is an eternal truth: The principle of non-contradiction.

"A thing cannot be, and not be, in the same way at the same time."

When applied to mathmatics we get the peinciple of identity.
A=A

There are others as well.


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OfflineIamHungry
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Re: True Truths [Re: Ravus]
    #2939598 - 07/29/04 09:42 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

"what goes up must come down." is the only exception i can think of. i dont think anyone on this planet can say otherwise, gravity is a force, nay, a law of nature.

of course we observe truths but how would we know anything if someone hadnt seen seen it before and question why? we have the ability to observe and calculate things, so we create truths for ourselves.

as for absolute truths, maybe we cannot "prove" they exist. hell, if they existed we wouldnt have our own free will and observatory powers at all. i have my own ideas of what truth is and nobody else in the universe is entirely equal.


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Anonymous

Re: True Truths [Re: kaiowas]
    #2939715 - 07/29/04 10:49 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

if you are looking for a universal truth, I don't think you will ever find it




i have found it, it is love, which is ONLY unconditional.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: True Truths [Re: Ravus]
    #2940094 - 07/29/04 12:39 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I will never understand, why people think, there's no objective truth.
I can run 1000 times against that wall and will find my head aking and my nose bleeding, not 'believing' it's true.
I can 1000 times burn that forest, just wondering why there won't be any birds left over.

On the other hand, if I get one pudding, and get annother one, then I will have one biiig pudding as result, yummm.

No, really, I think there are many objective truths out there and I wonder why it should be so hard to get...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: True Truths [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #2940121 - 07/29/04 12:43 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

people who open up in this forum are gods...


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Offlinecleaner
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Re: True Truths [Re: IamHungry]
    #2940173 - 07/29/04 12:53 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

IamHungry said:
"what goes up must come down." is the only exception i can think of. i dont think anyone on this planet can say otherwise, gravity is a force, nay, a law of nature.





a law eh?

Well how about "what goes down must come up" would you agree to that?? Would you?


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OfflineIamHungry
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Re: True Truths [Re: cleaner]
    #2940271 - 07/29/04 01:21 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

actually yes i would. if someone is, say, standing on their head then their opinion of down and up are opposite of my own. i dont see how trying to get me all riled up is going to do anything...


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OfflineViaggio
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Re: True Truths [Re: cybrbeast]
    #2940763 - 07/29/04 03:31 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

cybrbeast said:
people who open up in this forum are gods...



That's right.  Now, don't forget that our demand for weekly ritual human sacrifice is just around the corner  :hellfire:

Truth = the absense of illusion.  If we can define the illusion first, then truth is also just around the corner  :goodluck:


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: True Truths [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #2940906 - 07/29/04 04:06 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

"Truth = the absense of illusion. If we can define the illusion first, then truth is also just around the corner"

That's exactly right. But the illusion is our only way of communicating with the universe, so what are we stuck with then?

Just as a 2D man who sees 1 rectangle over here and 1 rectangle over there will assume that there are two, a 3D man will look behind and see that there are blocks and blocks of rectangles hidden from view from the 2D man's limited perception. Now, if string theory is true, there are many more dimensions than we humans can perceive. We only know a small part of the universe, so how is any of it true?

Interpretations, opinions and sensory signals have been seen as truth for so long we no longer even realize that it is just a perspective, and would change in a moment's notice if we could see through the eyes of an egoless object


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: True Truths [Re: Ravus]
    #2941206 - 07/29/04 05:43 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

for some reason u still think that because we only see partial reality, what we see must be wrong.

i think its just partial.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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