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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #883908 - 09/15/02 08:03 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

:shocked:


*Snaps fingers*  a Servant appears from behind a voluminious curtian to take drink orders.
-"One turpin-..I mean  one Turpenteeno for the gentleman with the laurels. "


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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: Anonymous]
    #883913 - 09/15/02 08:07 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

:grin:

Thank Heavens!  I think I'll need those drinks.  I have the feeling I'm about to get whacked!  :shocked:

:wink: 


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #883937 - 09/15/02 08:21 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

OK, I give up...


I...I...I...  exist...

hey that wasn't so bad  :smile:

 


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OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
Male User Gallery

Registered: 11/24/01
Posts: 10,211
Loc: Bloomington, IN
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
Re: Truth? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #883946 - 09/15/02 08:26 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

Now that's just ego talk!

*plugs his ears*


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #883971 - 09/15/02 08:34 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

:grin:

btw, I am offering a free spore print to anyone who can understand and restate back to me exactly what I was talking about.  I am serious.

Glad you see it my way.  Pretty soon I'll have you signed up for Amway and the Jehovah's Witness protection program.

:wink: 


Edited by Mr_Mushrooms (09/15/02 08:37 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: buttonion]
    #884100 - 09/15/02 09:13 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

^^^^^^

Consider it refuted.

Cheers,


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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,006
Loc: 9th Dimension
Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #884258 - 09/15/02 10:22 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

My version of truth is to see a thing uncolored by one's own personal preferences, to see things as they are, in its own pristine simplicity.



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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: Shroomism]
    #884269 - 09/15/02 10:28 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

Yes, Shroomism, exactly. A person who allows their personal preferences to interfer with their thinking cannot know the truth. My term for it is "vested interest".

Well said.

And see my reply to your Hopi thread for a further explanation.

Cheers,


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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,006
Loc: 9th Dimension
Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #884278 - 09/15/02 10:32 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

So do I get a spore print?  :grin:

No need really..you can send it to Swami. 


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #884315 - 09/15/02 10:49 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

I think you were saying that a perception can't exist without something real that is being perceived.


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Offlinevaporbrains
Cub Scout

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 539
Loc: ghetto# 03479
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: Truth? [Re: Adamist]
    #884832 - 09/16/02 05:45 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

The more we try to know and learn, the less we understand. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle can illustrate this to some extend: The action of perception modifies the object to perceive. In physics this means that when one tries to determine location and impulse of a particle, one has to use other particles, e.g. photons, to get the information. But when the messanger particle, the photon or whatever, collides with the target in order to reflect back and tell us what we want to know, it changes the target by exchanging energy.

the act of percieving alters the objects percieved. we never "see" the object itself, only the altered version of the object as it is filtered through us. Thus the proposition "Reality exists" can be reduced to "My perceptions exist." But, as i've said before: perhaps even your perceptions don't exist. perhaps you are merely a computer program that has been programmed to "think it is percieving" while no actual perception is going on.

your statements about the Matrix amount to: Morpheus can't know when he's in the real world because he can't distinguish the desert of the real from a computer simulation. so, he actually can't know that he exists. i think the movie Existenz by David Cronenberg addresses the topic of reality much more effectively, but it doesn't have all the flashier special effects and action sequences of The Matrix.

linguistic convention: that which i process is real.


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All refrences to and statements concerning mushrooms, mushroom cultivation, and mushroom related paraphrenalia refer specifically to the cultivation of legal species.


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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: vaporbrains]
    #885126 - 09/16/02 08:28 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

I appreciate your ideas on this subject but I think they need refinement. I have created two other threads that you might not have read that have bearing on this issue. They are:

Quantum Mechanics, tool of Satan?

And,

A dissertation on the aspects of subjectivity.

Read them and think about them. They might give you a different perspective on this issue.

Cheers,


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #885767 - 09/16/02 03:07 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

The conclusion of the foregoing is that a misunderstanding of ideas leads us inexorably to either total skepticism; the philosophical stance that we can never know the external world even though it might exist, and solipsism; the assertion that everything that I am conscious of is a figment of my imagination. Common sense compels us to reject each of those conclusions as absurd.

Common sense compels us to reject? Just because our experience is based completely on the assumption that there are things that exist objectively, and that working under this assumption has some how ?worked? does not compel me to reject either of those conclusions. Please demonstrate with logic that idealism is invalid.


And I just wanted to address this comment made in a previous post in case it is biasing your current stance:

Here's what I think is up. Most people are terrified to even admit that any truth is absolute in any degree exists in any way whatsoever. The reason for this is because that might in some small way end up with the admitting that God exists or, heaven forbid, there might be some kind of moral code to which we all should adhere. Good Golly Molly wouldn't that be a drag!

No, it's better to just play dumb and that way no one can tell us what is truth (because it doesn't exist) and that way we can cling to whatever vile notions we like or we can do whatever we please and no one can tell us that it is wrong. It seems to me, and here I am being quite serious, that moral relativism has really done its job. The very idea that we question our existence is, behind the scenes, an extreme attachment to the ego. The very same ego that protects, defends, and worships itself at every turn to the pain suffering and misery that this world contains.


Demonstrating defensiveness and ego-attachment is a tricky enterprise- you can pretty much spin most situations any way you want. I could just as easily say that the existence of an absolute moral code, the existence of God, and assuming the existence of things is ego-striving:

That is (a demonstration)?we as humans, are so important, so unique, so special that there exists an absolute code of conduct decreeing how we should behave, how we should control ourselves. Nay are we products of random events. We are humans! And there even exists a being that oversees our behavior and awaits us in a utopian afterlife!

And most importantly by far, the ways in which our organism perceives reality, is reality! That is, as long as several humans experience the same perception, then that perception is indicative of reality. Even though countless other organisms on our planet likely perceive reality in a completely different way (e.g., bats, sharks, ants), even though they sense things that we do not and fail to sense things that we do, it is our way of chopping up and categorizing what is a continuous whole, based on what we are attuned to perceive, that is consitent with reality!


Again, I am not saying that I can reject your realism, but how do you reject idealism?... Common sense?


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: buttonion]
    #886056 - 09/16/02 05:18 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Please demonstrate with logic that idealism is invalid.

I did.

Even though countless other organisms on our planet likely perceive reality in a completely different way (e.g., bats, sharks, ants), even though they sense things that we do not and fail to sense things that we do, it is our way of chopping up and categorizing what is a continuous whole, based on what we are attuned to perceive, that is consitent with reality!

I mentioned other arguments. One establishes the primacy of man through conceptual abstraction of which we alone are capable. Animals are only capable of perceptual abstraction and therein lies the difference between us.

I suggest you re-read the relevant posts, peruse them. They are helpful.

Are you suggesting that common sense is useless? If so what other court will you try your case in?

There are at least two classes of seekers; one wishes to know and the other does not. I speculate that you are of the first type.

Cheers my favorite onion,


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #886398 - 09/16/02 07:28 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

I found the following arguments:

- The distinction between ?public? and ?private? knowledge- I addressed this previously

- an argument concerning the motivation to believe that things don?t exist- addressed?

- appeal to common sense- if you could elaborate on what this is and how this helps I would appreciate?

- cognito ergo sum- I agree with one interpretation of this- that is, ?I think I am, therefore I am.? I think your interpretation is ?I can think, therefore I am.? I address this below.

- It seems that more in line with your Lockean perspective you might argue that you exist based on observations of your behavior (as you said of your love for someone). But as you noted, perceptions can be deceiving. And who is to say that the healthy, average human?s, 3-D visual perspective is so representative of objective reality?


From a website on Godel:
?? the following statement is a part of any system: a statement P which states "there is no proof of P" [A Godel statement]. If P is true, there is no proof of it. If P is false, there is a proof that P is true, which is a contradiction. Therefore it cannot be determined within the system whether P is true.?

??there is no way to get around Godel-format statements: all symbolic systems will contain them.?



I think this may lead to a fruitful line of discussion- It seems that a Godel statement for Realism is ?there is no proof that things exist? (that I can currently see). It cannot be proven true because it is axiomatic of our way of apprehending reality- it cannot be proven within our symbolic system.

This also applies to the cognito ergo sum argument. The existence of things is axiomatic in the way that we think. How can we think (in how I construe you to use the term) without assuming the existence of things.


Yes baby! So where is the beef with (proof of) things existing?  :smile: 


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: buttonion]
    #887399 - 09/17/02 07:10 AM (19 years, 15 days ago)

Wow, I'll have to respond more later.

Gurdel?  Really!

How can you be so cruel! :grin: 


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #889090 - 09/17/02 06:27 PM (19 years, 15 days ago)

btw, I am offering a free spore print to anyone who can understand and restate back to me exactly what I was talking about. I am serious.

A spore print for me?... he, he  :smile:
 


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: buttonion]
    #889208 - 09/17/02 07:14 PM (19 years, 15 days ago)

That would be affirmative. I have a pretty vast library that is growing by the day. Rather than list all the species that I have why don't you pm me with your top three choices. I will send the closest one to the top out ASAP.

By the way, your post preceding this one was kind of choppy. It is hard to go back through the entire thread and find all the relevant things you are referring to. At the moment I am adjusting my girdle but I do intend to answer your charge.

While I am doing that would you answer a simple question?

When I say common sense I am referring to what we all know as common sense. There are no special convoluted meanings attached to it.

The question is, if you reject common sense then in what court would you try your case? There are none that I know of that I would consider sane. Locke, though he started this miss, firmly thought that an external world existed and that we could know it. The correct solution to his premise would have been to work backwards reductio ad absurdum. But, that wasn't done. More's the pity.

Cheers,


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Offlinemirrorsaww
newbie
Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 43
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #890682 - 09/18/02 10:21 AM (19 years, 14 days ago)

There are at least two classes of seekers; one wishes to know and the other does not.

or maybe there is only one kind... but some people are afraid to admit that they do want to know truth.

just another way of looking at the same thing I suspect...


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Offlinemirrorsaww
newbie
Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 43
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
Re: Truth? [Re: Anonymous]
    #890703 - 09/18/02 10:34 AM (19 years, 14 days ago)

I have come to this truth through...

a bold equivalent!


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