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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: Phluck]
    #1951471 - 09/25/03 03:05 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"There is no evolutionary advantage to cosmic understanding"

I don't think I could agree with that..

We've taken evolution to a new level here on Earth. Its not just a bio-electrical phenomenon any longer for us... For example, we're evolving into space-travelling creatures, not due to evolutionary changes in our DNA (I wouldn't THINK, anyway..) but due to our NEW methods of recording data externally. DNA changes take a long time, where if we record data externally, continue to breed, and then share this data with the younger generations (as we've been doing..), this is a type of evolution that isn't handled by natural law.. its handled by our own minds and whichever percieved laws we attach to this data. Heh I'm not sure if this makes sense, but basically what I'm getting at is that for a snail, cosmic understanding would be useless, but for us as creatures who seemingly want to explore and "escape" everything possible, the more understanding we develope about how things work here in the universe, the more advantageous this will be for future generations.. This is not due to the evolution of our DNA, but the evolution of our collective memory.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1951562 - 09/25/03 03:35 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"They can both be correct, but not from one perspective. Of course, there is a certain perspective that I like to use that points out that whatever someone believes is correct to that person, and each person makes their own reality. "

That is a belief on your part, and not something that can be assumed. Was there a time when the earth was actually flat, because that's what everyone believed? If there was, how did we discover that it was round?

"Okay, how do we know that the Earth is actually the Earth, a planet floating in space? "

Well, yes. Even if all of reality is a dream, we have labelled certain components in our dream. This table is still a table even if it is a figment of my imagination, because if all of reality is imagined, then there are no tables at all other than tables no more real than this one. In other words, if "tables" don't really exist, then "table" is a word for this fictional thing I'm sitting at.


"Someone might witness an "objective" happening (the bird is dead), but that outlook is still what he believes what has happened. "

That's his outlook, but not necessarily his reality. While this theory may work when there is no way to challenge one's beliefs, it won't hold up when someone believes something that directly contradicts an aspect of reality they haven't yet learned about, like the flat earth example.

If someone believes that after they die, they will grow wings, learn to play the harp, and sit on clouds, can you say for sure that this will happen?

What about the people who believed that the earth would end in the year 2000? What about (and I think I already used this example somewhere) Cleaner's terrorist attack in August, did that really happen to him?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: sirreal]
    #1951577 - 09/25/03 03:38 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"If that understanding aids in expanding lifes boundaries,then it has helped the evolution of life. Has it not?"

Evolution is not a move forward, it is a move towards survival and reproduction. A species such as a virus is very highly evolved. Grass is highly evolved. Intelligence and inventiveness have helped us survive and reproduce, but our understanding of philosophy or spirituality has really been nothing more than comfort and entertainment.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleGCDestruction
one time mindfor your
Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 27
Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1951597 - 09/25/03 03:45 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"So I was thinking that it's the confusion of our mind's creative output with our actual perception of what is really happening that creates spiritual ideas."


everyone as an individual has their own perception and they'll have their own creative thoughts about it. if so, a persons spirituality comes from how they perceive the world and how they feel they should look at it. people need to make their own spirituality.

"It's easy to come up with an idea that explains the things we don't understand, lots of people have done it, and created contradictory ideas. Just because an idea explains something doesn't mean it's accurate. People really don't like not being able to understand something, and a lot of the time it's easier to just accept the first thing that sounds like it could be true."

the above quote doesnt matter if a person has trust in their own perception and creativity.

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InvisibleGCDestruction
one time mindfor your
Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 27
Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: GCDestruction]
    #1951613 - 09/25/03 03:48 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"If someone believes that after they die, they will grow wings, learn to play the harp, and sit on clouds, can you say for sure that this will happen?"

can you say for sure they wont?

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: GCDestruction]
    #1951633 - 09/25/03 03:54 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"can you say for sure they wont?"

This is a burden of proof scam.

Burden of Proof


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: GCDestruction]
    #1951637 - 09/25/03 03:54 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"the above quote doesnt matter if a person has trust in their own perception and creativity."

I actually made a post a while back called "Why do you trust your brain?" or something like that.

The point I made was, what reason do you have to trust exactly what your brain tells you? Blindly trusting exactly what your brain tells you would demonstrate a lack of critical thought.

Let's say you buy a lottery ticket, and stick it in your safety deposit box. That night, you see the draw on TV, and you think "Those are the numbers I chose!". Would you immediately go out and blow all your money, or would you get your ticket and make sure you remembered correctly first? Often, our minds are flawed, and our minds often invent ideas and thoughts to fill in blanks of what we don't know and understand, and these invented ideas are not always correct. It's no better to blindly trust what others tell you than it is to trust what you tell yourself.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleGCDestruction
one time mindfor your
Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 27
Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: Strumpling]
    #1951638 - 09/25/03 03:55 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"That's his outlook, but not necessarily his reality. While this theory may work when there is no way to challenge one's beliefs, it won't hold up when someone believes something that directly contradicts an aspect of reality they haven't yet learned about, like the flat earth example."

the reality of spirituality (i dont think) was meant to be understood while we're human, and if thats not true then at least for right now.

"Evolution is not a move forward, it is a move towards survival and reproduction. A species such as a virus is very highly evolved. Grass is highly evolved. Intelligence and inventiveness have helped us survive and reproduce, but our understanding of philosophy or spirituality has really been nothing more than comfort and entertainment."

very true. then why even ask where spirituality originated if you know that it's fairly trivial.

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: GCDestruction]
    #1951654 - 09/25/03 03:58 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"can you say for sure they wont?"

That's kind of my point, you can't say for sure either way, but like my other examples pointed out, belief does not change the nature of the universe.

As strumpling said, the burden of proof rests on the person making the claim. If I were to say that there is life on Mars, and it consists solely of a certain species of cow, you would probably want me to prove it. If I said, "It's there, you can't prove there isn't", it wouldn't make you take me any more seriously, would it?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleGCDestruction
one time mindfor your
Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 27
Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: GCDestruction]
    #1951659 - 09/25/03 03:59 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

if you cant trust your own head then why be?

i agree that our minds are flawed but id much rather trust my brain over what others tell me. im not trying to support blind trust either.

"The point I made was, what reason do you have to trust exactly what your brain tells you? Blindly trusting exactly what your brain tells you would demonstrate a lack of critical thought."

how should one critically think?

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: GCDestruction]
    #1951673 - 09/25/03 04:03 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"the reality of spirituality (i dont think) was meant to be understood while we're human, and if thats not true then at least for right now."

It's pretty likely that we'll never understand the true nature of the universe, no matter how much we really, really want to, or how desperately hard we try. I don't think it's a matter of what is meant or not meant to happen, just what is.

"very true. then why even ask where spirituality originated if you know that it's fairly trivial."

Because I think an understanding of the human mind is fascinating, and spirituality certainly plays a huge part in human psychology and history.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleGCDestruction
one time mindfor your
Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 27
Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: GCDestruction]
    #1951681 - 09/25/03 04:05 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"That's kind of my point, you can't say for sure either way, but like my other examples pointed out, belief does not change the nature of the universe."

heh, kind of my point too, belief doesnt change the nature of the universe but id like to trust the nature of myself.

thats why i stressed personal spirituality. spirituality is not something to be proved. trust the nature of yourself, heh, but youre saying not even to do that.

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: GCDestruction]
    #1951682 - 09/25/03 04:05 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"if you cant trust your own head then why be?"

Because it's fun!

"how should one critically think?"

Question everything. What others tell you, what you tell yourself. Ask, "what is the most likely possibility?".


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleGCDestruction
one time mindfor your
Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 27
Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: Phluck]
    #1951688 - 09/25/03 04:07 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

word.

i trust my head which tells me to trust nothing.

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InvisibleGCDestruction
one time mindfor your
Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 27
Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: GCDestruction]
    #1951701 - 09/25/03 04:16 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

burden of proof
"Somebody #1 replies "Prove there weren't." <--- There! Right there "Somebody" #1 has now backed out on their claim completely, the way I see it. By shoving it back on the questioner they're doing nothing other than making it seem like they have no solid evidence whatsoever to back up their claim."

by playing the role of "somebody #1" i was countering his lack of evidence with my lack of evidence. i have no belief that "it" does or doesnt exist, just that neither have proof.

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: GCDestruction]
    #1951712 - 09/25/03 04:20 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Okay, yes, I agree with you on that.

I think a more fitting example was the one about the flat earth.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleGCDestruction
one time mindfor your
Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 27
Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: Phluck]
    #1951743 - 09/25/03 04:31 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"I think a more fitting example was the one about the flat earth."

talking about burden of proof, yeah.
im enjoying your website btw.

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: GCDestruction]
    #1951754 - 09/25/03 04:34 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

hehe, Thanks, people seem to like it.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleGCDestruction
one time mindfor your
Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 27
Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: Phluck]
    #1951768 - 09/25/03 04:40 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

whats up with your california raisin style purple guys.

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InvisibleGCDestruction
one time mindfor your
Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 27
Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: GCDestruction]
    #1951800 - 09/25/03 04:53 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"It's pretty likely that we'll never understand the true nature of the universe, no matter how much we really, really want to, or how desperately hard we try. I don't think it's a matter of what is meant or not meant to happen, just what is."

thats what i meant in my first post:
the fifth response to the bird dropping needs to be "it is"

good thread  :thumbup:

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