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OfflinePhluck
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Confusing creativity with perception.
    #1947370 - 09/24/03 11:32 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Is this the origin of spirituality?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: Phluck]
    #1947425 - 09/24/03 11:58 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Not quite sure what you mean, here.. could you elaborate just a bit?

I would like to think of myself as being creative... and perception, that too... I don't see myself as confusing creativity with perception... but maybe you could elaborate, to help me out?
Peace.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1947451 - 09/24/03 12:09 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I consider myself creative as well. I've seen a lot of VERY creative ideas coming from the more spiritual members of this board. Some wild associations, some fascinating and bizarre stories, and beautiful artwork... all being used to represent/explain the nature of the universe.

My stance has always been that these things are a faschinating insight into the nature of the human mind, the way thoughts are interwoven, the associations and patterns it spews out, but that assuming that this output can offer a further understanding of the nature of the universe is presumptuous.

So I was thinking that it's the confusion of our mind's creative output with our actual perception of what is really happening that creates spiritual ideas.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: Phluck]
    #1947512 - 09/24/03 12:38 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Well, creativity should offer a lot of insight into how this universe works, because creativity creates. And, hey, we are in a Creation, doing our part to create more.

I think it is other people that take the creative output trying to explain the Universe as the actual perception, and that is where the spiritual ideas come from... some things just can't be explained with words or tests, and we have a hard enough time getting acrossed our thoughts and experiences as it is.. creative output seems to be a little bit more capable of carrying the message..
Peace.


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
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For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1947551 - 09/24/03 12:55 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"Well, creativity should offer a lot of insight into how this universe works, because creativity creates. And, hey, we are in a Creation, doing our part to create more."

I'm not entirely sure of what you mean here.

"I think it is other people that take the creative output trying to explain the Universe as the actual perception, and that is where the spiritual ideas come from... some things just can't be explained with words or tests, and we have a hard enough time getting acrossed our thoughts and experiences as it is.. creative output seems to be a little bit more capable of carrying the message.."

It's easy to come up with an idea that explains the things we don't understand, lots of people have done it, and created contradictory ideas. Just because an idea explains something doesn't mean it's accurate. People really don't like not being able to understand something, and a lot of the time it's easier to just accept the first thing that sounds like it could be true.

I think it's a lot more intelligent to accept that there are certain things that we just don't understand. We can work at trying to figure them out, but claiming to already have the answers is just holding us back.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: Phluck]
    #1947589 - 09/24/03 01:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I think it is a lot more intelligent to accept the fact that there is nothing that we can understand, because even if we "validate" something, or whatever, it still isn't proof, especially since we don't even know if we are dreaming right now or that we even exist.

What I do know is that whatever we tend to believe starts to exist for the person that is believing. This is a key point.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1947732 - 09/24/03 01:49 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"I think it is a lot more intelligent to accept the fact that there is nothing that we can understand, because even if we "validate" something, or whatever, it still isn't proof, especially since we don't even know if we are dreaming right now or that we even exist. "

There is nothing we can truly understand, no. However, there are points where our perceptions match.

"What I do know is that whatever we tend to believe starts to exist for the person that is believing. This is a key point. "

I don't think saying it "starts to exist for them" is the best way of putting it. Saying that the experience of believing in something that is true is no different from the experience of believing in something that is false is more accurate, I think. If I were to believe that I was not using my fingers to type on the keyboard, that I was doing it telepathically would make me delusional, not someone of a different faith.

cleaner believed that there was going to be a terrorist attack that killed thousands in August. Do you think he saw that on the news while we did not?

Christians who believe fully in creationism do not live in a reality where dinosaur bones don't exist, they just think up bizarre justifications for them.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: Phluck]
    #1947756 - 09/24/03 01:55 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
There is nothing we can truly understand, no. However, there are points where our perceptions match.




But the points where our perceptions match aren't valid truth because they match.

I agree with you on the whole delusional thing, but, technically, to them, they aren't delusional, and I have nothing that proves them wrong.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1947854 - 09/24/03 02:17 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"But the points where our perceptions match aren't valid truth because they match."

No, but I think that they can be used as valid evidence, while emotions and "inner experiences" cannot.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: Phluck]
    #1948051 - 09/24/03 03:13 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Anything can be used as valid evidence.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1949916 - 09/25/03 12:38 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Four people are standing outside, and a bird flies above. All see the bird, and all agree that there is a bird flying above them. It dies, and falls down in front of them.

One of them says he can feel God's presence. "God is guiding the bird's soul to heaven."

Another says he can feel God's absence. "This bird died because God was not there to protect him."

Another says he can feel the presence of many gods. "They are battling over the soul, some want to bring it to peace, and some to chaos."

The last person says "There's a dead bird."

Which one was correct?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: Phluck]
    #1950380 - 09/25/03 05:56 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

All of them.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1950506 - 09/25/03 08:44 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
All of them.
Peace. 





After reading that last post by phluck, I knew exactly what your response would be. :cool: 


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: sirreal]
    #1950548 - 09/25/03 09:34 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Personally, I think that our inner space is as vast, complex and beautiful as outer space, and that an understanding of one is an equal understanding of the other. To be able to articulate and express what we observe when peering into our minds will yield as much or more information about the forces which propel the universe than say, the Hubble telescope or a particle accelerator.

One and the same.

It's been less than 100,000 years since we were striking flint against stones, leaping back in astonishment at the sparks came forth. Many individuals have lived and died since then, but Nature's view of us is as a species. As an individual species, hardly a moment has passed between the sparking of flint and the ejection of massive telescopes into space, and out of our solar system.


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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: Ped]
    #1950555 - 09/25/03 09:44 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
Personally, I think that our inner space is as vast, complex and beautiful as outer space, and that an understanding of one is an equal understanding of the other.  To be able to articulate and express what we observe when peering into our minds will yield as much or more information about the forces which propel the universe than say, the Hubble telescope or a particle accelerator.

One and the same.

It's been less than 100,000 years since we were striking flint against stones, leaping back in astonishment at the sparks came forth.  Many individuals have lived and died since then, but Nature's view of us is as a species.  As an individual species, hardly a moment has passed between the sparking of flint and the ejection of massive telescopes into space, and out of our solar system.   




Creative perception is a good thing! :thumbup: 


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: Ped]
    #1950776 - 09/25/03 12:20 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"Personally, I think that our inner space is as vast, complex and beautiful as outer space, and that an understanding of one is an equal understanding of the other."

I agree 100%.

"To be able to articulate and express what we observe when peering into our minds will yield as much or more information about the forces which propel the universe than say, the Hubble telescope or a particle accelerator."

I don't think our minds are capable of observing and interpreting the nature of the universe. I think that our creative output is a side effect of a system that hunts for satisfaction of its cravings, and procreates. There is no evolutionary advantage to cosmic understanding, but there is an advantage to understanding our outer environment. While our curiosity has led us on the quest for this understanding, I'm not sure that we've come to any revealing conclusions on any front.

I think that trying to understand how the universe works based on our mind's output, is like trying to understand how a television works by staring at the static, and trying to make out an image that explains it.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1950781 - 09/25/03 12:22 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"All of them. "

I also kind of figured you'd say that, and I'm wondering how two contradicting statements can both be correct?

It's easy to say something like "Oh but they can, if you just open your mind". Sure, I can PRETEND two contradicting statements can both be correct, but is it REALLY possible?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: Phluck]
    #1950805 - 09/25/03 12:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
I don't think our minds are capable of observing and interpreting the nature of the universe. I think that our creative output is a side effect of a system that hunts for satisfaction of its cravings, and procreates. There is no evolutionary advantage to cosmic understanding, but there is an advantage to understanding our outer environment. While our curiosity has led us on the quest for this understanding, I'm not sure that we've come to any revealing conclusions on any front.

I think that trying to understand how the universe works based on our mind's output, is like trying to understand how a television works by staring at the static, and trying to make out an image that explains it.





If that understanding aids in expanding lifes boundaries,then it has helped the evolution of life. Has it not?





--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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InvisibleGCDestruction
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: sirreal]
    #1951345 - 09/25/03 04:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

... the four people seeing the bird fall

"all of them" are right, at the same time you should think that theyre all also wrong simply for thinking about it.

"and I'm wondering how two contradicting statements can both be correct?"

anything that is has to be its opposite to be

everything is nothing
nothing is everything

the fifth response to the bird dropping needs to be "it is"


sorry if this didnt make much sense


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Confusing creativity with perception. [Re: Phluck]
    #1951375 - 09/25/03 04:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
I also kind of figured you'd say that, and I'm wondering how two contradicting statements can both be correct?

It's easy to say something like "Oh but they can, if you just open your mind". Sure, I can PRETEND two contradicting statements can both be correct, but is it REALLY possible?




Well, I think that it was inevitable for me to answer "All of them". That is just the way I think.

Now to justify my answer (I had to wait for your response first, that is how this game is being played, hehe).
I am not going to say "open your mind", either.

They can both be correct, but not from one perspective. Of course, there is a certain perspective that I like to use that points out that whatever someone believes is correct to that person, and each person makes their own reality.

One person can believe something completely contraditictory to what someone else thinks, and it is correct and true for that person. Someone might witness an "objective" happening (the bird is dead), but that outlook is still what he believes what has happened.

Okay, how do we know that the Earth is actually the Earth, a planet floating in space?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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