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Re: Truth? [Re: Adamist]
    #870535 -

This is one of the reasons that I started this thread. I think we should look at it closely. I have no answer for the nonce but I will think about this and come up with something, or nothing.

I really appreciate your input on this matter. Fact is, truth is what we want, or say we want. Let's dig in and see what we can come up with. Ok?

Cheers,

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Re: Truth? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #870541 -

Existence is the only Abolute Truth that I know.

Yes, that is one for sure. Are there others? Maybe we should entertain that idea as well.

I'll bring the wine if you bring the cheese.

Cheers,

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Re: Truth? [Re: pattern]
    #870552 -

truth is what i experience in reality.

each one of us experiences a subset of reality, and therefore each one of us knows part of the whole truth.

if someone lies to you, it is true that they lied to you.

when truth is an experience, you will never convince another of the truths that you know, because there is no way to fully communicate an experience.

And if our experience deceives us? If our perceptions deceive us? What then? Where do we stand? What rock or firmament is there to stand on? Is everything relative? I think some of us have concluded that there is at least one absolute truth and that is our existence. Would you maintain that as well?

Cheers,

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Re: Truth? [Re: Anonymous]
    #870590 -

I once stated in a thread that I could not think of even one 'Absolute Truth', and I maintain my stance.

I remember.  You hair was silky and flowing.  You wore the most beautiful outfit and I was drinking Chabis.  Wait, I think I am remember something that didn't happen.  Sorry. :wink:  So you would admit that you do not exist or that you cannot be absolutely sure of your existence?  Please do not say such things.  The world, nay the universe, would be a poorer place without you!  Or are you just a fragment of my imagination? :wink:

However, I think this is a good thing. I would hate to think of Love or Beauty as a static notion.

I do not think that either are static but are dynamic at least the last time I checked they were.  Those sorts of things are more properly understood within axiology.  Not my forte to be sure.  Sorry, didn't mean to shout.

As for Scientificky stuff, there is no way to 'know' they are accurate, since we are using our own limited perspective to set the guage. -OoD

Come come come, must you be so pedantic?  Yes, I think that is so but I don't like to brag about it.  Scientificky, indeed!  Sniff sniff  ahem  harrumph and other assorted supercilious noises.

Cheers, 

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Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #870611 -

Plato Sez:- So you would admit that you do not exist or that you cannot be absolutely sure of your existence?
I reply: - I don't find that 'fact'  to be an absolute truth - I cannot say, with absolute certianlty that I am not the Figment of some god's imagination - or a multifacted character in a complex program - I cannot know if what I  sense , 'pain', 'pleasure', 'cold', 'hot' is real or what I am programmed to feel.  Not that I'm complining, "They" gave me a nice rack.  :grin:
-OoD

   

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Re: Truth? [Re: Anonymous]
    #870639 -

My Dear Lady!  :blush:  Indeed!

Thou makest the poor Plato envision all sorts of fancies!  Please, control yourself.

You are breaking my poor old heart.  You do not knowest if thouest existththth?

Then how will this feeling, this existential conundrum, ever be assuaged?  Am I destined to walk the Urt with only a threadbare set of pajamas?  That's a cold compromise for such a rogue as I.

Do you experience existence? 

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Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #870661 -

(Sits Plato down, gives him a lolly)
Yes Friend, I have 'experienced; - Altered myself such, as to make my mouth go slack, with eyes that roll back - I have seen sights terrible and cruel, imprinting themselves on my retinas for ever in my mind -  I have tasted pleasures honey sweet,  as to pierce my soul with tempoary happiness - And wallowed in cold bitterness, because it seemed so familiar.
Not to fear, I have 'experienced.' -OoD





Don't worry, you only live twice :grin:   

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Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #870674 -

I can sense a sort of universal truth spiraling out as life goes on. It's in the stars, in the sun, in the subtle intracacies of musical rhythms correlating with your personal time and space.  I can feel the spirit and energies in everything. Vibes.

I guess I believe in the truth of the spirit of the world, or whatever.  :tongue:

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Re: Truth? [Re: Anonymous]
    #870688 -

Goody! :smile:

Plato all happy now.  But the thing is, will it last? :wink:

So then you cannot say that you have experienced these things?  Or can you?  Seems to me like a pretty definitive picture you are painting.  Or are you just the God's paint brush? :wink:

Heavens, the last she she needs is allusion right now, me thinks.

Get yer own metaphor, dammit! :wink:

Cheers and tears, 

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Re: Truth? [Re: Grav]
    #870694 -

Is sensing in the sense that you used it enough? Or does one need more types of sense in order to make any sense. Does any of that make sense?

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Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #870717 -

In reply to:
Or are you just the God's paint brush?


-More like 'A god's hammer'. -OoD

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Re: Truth? [Re: Anonymous]
    #870726 -

No need to get Thor about it. :tongue: 

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Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #870808 -

Point taken.......there are many definitions of love. I suspect we all have our own "TRUE" variations of it... LOL


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #870878 -

You'll have to define "absolute truth"..

Do you mean "truth that exists independent of human experience"?
or "truth that is constant throughout space and time"?
or both?

Is love an absolute truth? will it be here regardless of our existence?
Would pi still be pi if we weren't around?
Is change an absolute truth? would there be change without someone to perceive it?

When I say that existence is an absolute truth, I don't mean "I exist" or "we exist" or "the universe exists". I'm only saying that something exists. As soon as that something is defined, it is no longer an absolute truth. When we define that ineffable something as "I" or "we" or "the universe", we are introducing prejudiced distinctions that are made by the human mind.

All I know is that this thing exists.
Existence itself can't be denied. If you come across any other "absolute truths", let me know  :grin:

 

btw, "love", "pi" and "change" are not absolute truths, neither is human existence, neither is the existence of a physical universe. By the strictest definition of "absolute truth" - only "existence" is certain. Everything else is contingent on our personal experieces.

It may be a waste of time to seek absolute, unchanging, universal truths.
Perhaps we should seek truths that are shared by every human being?



Edited by infidelGOD (09/09/02 12:01 AM)

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Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #871140 -

truth is the present, the now. and by using the "tool of god", obsevation, perhaps we all may find it someday. but the present doesnt really exist, its always going to past, maybe there is no truth...every silver lining has a touch of gray, you know. actually, truth is what is left when everything is done. when a blackhole finally eats our universe and itself what will there be...emptyness? void?
and what about relativity, that changes everything, perhaps this and perhaps that...where was i?


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose

Edited by CleverName (09/09/02 02:38 AM)

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Re: Truth? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #871230 -

"I'm only saying that something exists."

Yes, however abstruse you thought your comment was or how impermeable it was to my mind I knew exactly what you meant by it.  Pretty weird, eh?  Especially when we say that I might not exist.  I hope you don't mind if I go out on a limb and say I exist.

"As soon as that something is defined, it is no longer an absolute truth. When we define that ineffable something as "I" or "we" or "the universe", we are introducing prejudiced distinctions that are made by the human mind."

Or so you say, but then again if you don't exist it really doesn't matter what you say, does it? :wink:  I'd like to do a little exploring on this matter.  It might prove to be helpful!  (deliberate pun)

Here's what I think is up.  Most people are terrified to even admit that any truth is absolute in any degree exists in any way whatsoever.  The reason for this is because that might in some small way end up with the admitting that God exists or, heaven forbid, there might be some kind of moral code to which we all should adhere.  Good Golly Molly wouldn't that be a drag!

No, it's better to just play dumb and that way no one can tell us what is truth (because it doesn't exist) and that way we can cling to whatever vile notions we like or we can do whatever we please and no one can tell us that it is wrong.  It seems to me, and here I am being quite serious, that moral relativism has really done its job.  The very idea that we question our existence is, behind the scenes, an extreme attachment to the ego.  The very same ego that protects, defends, and worships itself at every turn to the pain suffering and misery that this world contains.

I say this not to you specifically even though I think it applies but to the whole group.

If, and that's a big if, we are truly open-minded let us do a little exploration on this matter of truth.  What are we afraid of?  (Rhetorical question as I have already given what I think is the answer)

"It may be a waste of time to seek absolute, unchanging, universal truths.
Perhaps we should seek truths that are shared by every human being?"

It might be, and here I am just spitballing, more of a waste of time to explore the nature of shared truths if none of us exist in the first place. :smile:  Get me?

At the end of the day, the sun sets.  It always does. :wink:

Want another absolute truth?  Here's one:  I can tell, at times, whether someone has lied to me.  Can you?  Notice here I am not saying that lying is bad, just in case you love it, so you can revel in it to your hearts content and feel no guilt whatsoever.  I always try to accomodate my guests. :wink:

Cheers for absolute truths,   

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Re: Truth? [Re: CleverName]
    #871235 -

Interesting observation. It is true that all things that we experience existentially are in flux. But does that mean that they do not exist? From a phenomenological point of view we can say we know many things are true. But here we are introducing an element; time, that skews the question. Existence is not merely a temporal matter. If an object does not exist but it did at one singular point in time, at least enough so we could observe it in any way, we can say that it did exist. That would be true, no?

Cheers for existence,

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Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #871243 -

Hrmm, no Mr. Mushrooms that didnt make too much sense to me  :confused:

But i believe there is a truth in some sort of 'natural state' of things.. of human life. This truth comes only in fleeting moments (because the state of our current world breathes misunderstanding and confusion), but it is there, and you can feel it when all distractions are put out of mind.
Will it have any relevance in my daily life? probably not.

Maybe its just a randomly repeating function of the brain? heheh..  who knows..  :tongue:


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Re: Truth? [Re: Anonymous]
    #871245 -

And lastly:

"Not to fear, I have 'experienced.' -OoD"

Shades of Jimi!  Does this mean that something exists in some way?  Not to say that some material thing exists but merely to admit that something, you have called it 'experience', exists.  Allow me to say that I have 'experienced' the Oracle, but not all of her. :wink: :wink:

I vow to you, dear Lady, that I will not attempt to lead you down a primrose path.  Most of them have thorns. :wink:

Three Cheers for experience, 

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Re: Truth? [Re: Grav]
    #871250 -

Who knows?  With a little exploring we might. :tongue:

I hear you in the rest of it.  I was teasing you with my answer.  Do not disdain what you intuit, Aristotle thought the same.

And look what happened to him!  :blush:

Cheers, 

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