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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #890872 - 09/18/02 11:56 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

When I say common sense I am referring to what we all know as common sense. There are no special convoluted meanings attached to it.

I am not kidding when I say I do not know what you mean by ?common sense.? When I try to understand how common sense would be used to prove the existence of entities, I come up with something like: ?Well, for my whole life things apparently have existed, and to acknowledge that things exist has been very useful in accomplishing my goals? Most everybody else thinks that things exist- they must exist.? I?m sure I am not getting it.



The question is, if you reject common sense then in what court would you try your case?

From my current understanding of common sense, it appears to be an epistemological method which could rely on authority, past personal experience, and maybe even some intuition. I don?t think that these are inherently faulty ways of knowing, although each is definitely susceptible to certain validity threats.

So let?s say that the majority of people agree that things exist, that working under the assumption that things exist has been a useful and helpful theory in my life thus far, and that I somehow feel in my gut that ?things exist? is right- People could also use this line of reasoning to ?prove? the existence of God.


My (current) assertion is this:

There is no way to prove that entities (e.g., objects, events, properties, etc) exist outside of our perception- i.e., there is no way to prove Realism.

I think this case can be tried in the court of logic. I do think I need further clarification on common sense, though, unless my interpretation above is correct.


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Truth? [Re: buttonion]
    #890915 - 09/18/02 12:20 PM (19 years, 12 days ago)

Solipsism is counterproductive.

Life shouldn't be a compilation of stalemates. Something must give... something must work...


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: Sclorch]
    #892140 - 09/18/02 10:31 PM (19 years, 12 days ago)

I am reading but not posting much in case you wondered.

Yes, pragmatism is another answer.  If you have read this whole thread I applaud you.  I wouldn't have.

Good stuff lately Sclorch.  Just play nice. :wink:

Cheers, 


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
Re: Truth? [Re: Sclorch]
    #892386 - 09/19/02 01:57 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

Solipsism is counterproductive.

But what if it is the truth? Um... I didn't follow this thread, so I don't know what you guys have established as the definition of truth, so before I read the last few pages I'll drop my two cents: Truth is subjective experience. Everything else is an interpretation that shouldn't be judged by it's "truth", but by it's usefulness.

I am strongly arguing that solipsism is the only thing you've ever experienced. Everything else except solipsism is an interpretation you've come up with.

I don't think that solipsism is necessarily counterproductive, though it can certainly be so. But also, solipsism can be empowering. It can scare the hell out of you, or it can give you utter fearlessness. And most of all, it can be a difference that makes no difference.


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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: Nomad]
    #892557 - 09/19/02 06:16 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

Yes, that's the bane of philosophical thinking today in some circles and movies like the Matrix help spread it. I suggest you read the thread if you have the patience for it. Most of it is easy to understand and will give you a different perspective on it.

Cheers,


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #892782 - 09/19/02 08:32 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

Yes, that's the bane of philosophical thinking today in some circles and movies like the Matrix help spread it. I suggest you read the thread if you have the patience for it. Most of it is easy to understand and will give you a different perspective on it.

Okay, I just finshed the first four pages, which, I like to think, gives me the license to go for another round of ignorant rambling (again without a clue as to what the discussion was all about).

It seems that the whole thing got a bit too theoretical for my taste, so let me employ some serious Ockhams's Razor here. First of all, the idea of "absolute truth" doesn't make sense. It belongs to the category of "wet rain". Something is either true, or it ain't. Prefixing it with "absolute" can't make the concept of truth any more absolute than it already is. Second, the idea of a "truth" (as opposed to a "theory") implies certainty. The only thing you can be certain of is your subjective experience. Thus, subjective experience is the only truth. The truth is inside you. Know it, and it shall set you free.

I can see your point, though. What you might be relating me to is the concept of "moral relativity", which boils down to the idea that, in order for something good to exist, there has to be something evil. Few people notice that this is a profoundly egoistic idea. It basically says that I have to accept the existence of evil, so that I can enjoy being the good guy.

Seriously... I'd be willing to sacrifice everything in the universe that is good, just to end the plain evil I have to see every day with my own eyes.

I like what you said about denying your experience and the relationship of that to the ego (also known as the New-Age-Trap):

The very idea that we question our existence is, behind the scenes, an extreme attachment to the ego.

Well said. On a sidenote, I damn fucking well know that I exist. Because, oh boy, have I suffered because of that knowledge... have I cried out in pain and agony and sent prayers to whatever God there may be, begging for an end to it. But the Gods remained quiet on that one.


Edited by Nomad (09/19/02 08:34 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: Nomad]
    #892998 - 09/19/02 10:40 AM (19 years, 11 days ago)

Oh well done!  Not only can you read and have the necessary patience to read my drivel but you can think as well.  Gee, do you suppose there is a necessary correlation between the two? :wink:

Your section on "absolute truth" was addressed in the episteme/doxa portion of this thread.  The term 'absolute' is used by idealists to connote the one independent reality of which all things are an expression.  Kant, otoh, used the term to characterize entities that are unconditionally valid.

Some say that suffering wakes us up.  You seem like you are awake.  Do you think one thing influences the other?

Cheers,


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #893167 - 09/19/02 11:34 AM (19 years, 11 days ago)

Oh well done! Not only can you read and have the necessary patience to read my drivel but you can think as well.

Thanks. I need that, lately my ego is getting weak.  :wink:

Some say that suffering wakes us up. You seem like you are awake. Do you think one thing influences the other?

I don't have the faintest idea. But if suffering is a way to awakening, I sure hope there are easier roads to travel. 


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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: Nomad]
    #894696 - 09/19/02 11:49 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

"But if suffering is a way to awakening, I sure hope there are easier roads to travel."

There are, but no one takes them.  There is a lot of travel on this one though.  What with the tolls, road construction, and bad weather it's a wonder any of us get where we're going.

Unless you're Zeno, he never got anywhere. :wink:

Cheers,


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #895360 - 09/20/02 09:54 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Some say that suffering wakes us up. You seem like you are awake. Do you think one thing influences the other?

The German Zen Master Friedrich Nietzsche would say yes. As would I.
However, too much suffering will break a mind.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: Sclorch]
    #895424 - 09/20/02 10:17 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

You're right, I gotta re-read him.

Cheers,


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InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,780
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #969945 - 10/17/02 06:42 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Haven't read this whole thread yet, but here's my go at it:

I think Truth is entirely in the eye of the beholder. How can we know anything is true unless we accept it is true? If I don't believe something at all then to me it is not true. For me to believe it is true is to make a leap of faith, and no "supporting evidence" can remove the leap. I've learned this mostly through drugs, I have to admit. They have shown me that what I experience through my senses is The Truth to me, even if others saw differently. Salvia presented me with a full alteration of reality, and I still can remember no differently than what happened despite my friends all telling a different story.

At some point in my conciousness I have to believe that what I experienced was a hallucination and reality was as my friends saw it. But what if I truely belived that what I experienced was true, and that what my friends experienced was the collective hallucination of everything but me? Is there any way you could prove one reality (mine) was The Truth over the other (everyone else)?

So I believe Truth is entirely what we believe it to be, and that at a very deep level there are laws in which conciousness must "believe in" in order to exist. This is why we all experience the same reality, because we all share the laws of conciousness.

I read a novel once called Sphere, by Michael Crichton, in which certain characters could change reality simply by thinking about how they wanted it to change.

Maybe he was on to something?

I am very high.

later


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,780
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Truth? [Re: trendal]
    #970029 - 10/17/02 07:01 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I got it.

We do not experience The Truth; The Truth is whatever we experience.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: trendal]
    #970072 - 10/17/02 07:15 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I couldn't have written a better summation.

Just make sure your interpretation is correct.

Cheers,


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Truth? [Re: trendal]
    #970273 - 10/17/02 08:24 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

We do not experience The Truth; The Truth is whatever we experience.

Hmm... I agree with what you think you're saying with this line.

Schizophrenics experience little truth.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,780
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #970868 - 10/18/02 12:16 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

I couldn't have written a better summation.

Just make sure your interpretation is correct.




How might you interpret it?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: trendal]
    #971779 - 10/18/02 09:09 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

That the world appears as most of us think it does.


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InvisibleCosmic_Monkey
PongidaeKosmikos

Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 149
Loc: Somewhere between inner-s...
Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #971855 - 10/18/02 10:32 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

But isn't that just our perception your talking about. That's understood, but, aren't there some things that are fact, that can be agreed upon? These things being actual truth. Unless of course you question the very existence of that which the fact is about I suppose.


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InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,780
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Truth? [Re: ]
    #971873 - 10/18/02 10:45 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

That's the sentence I was looking for, thank you.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,780
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Truth? [Re: trendal]
    #972101 - 10/18/02 01:14 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Ok here's another go at explaining what's in my head:

If we base Truth on what we experience then we must, at some point, base our Truth on our Faith. In this case it would be faith that what we experience is "real" (perhaps a definition of "real" would be needed).

As an example I give you dimenhydrinate (Dramamine), an anti-cholinergic deleriant drug with the ability to completely destroy one's faith in experience. For those of you who have tried it at sufficient dose to produce full-blown hallucinations (which are very hard to distinguish from "reality") you should know what I mean here. For those who have not tried it: you see, hear, smell, feel, even taste things that at some point or another cease to exist right in front of you. One moment you are speaking to an old friend, the next moment they are gone. What makes this drug unique, in my opinion, is that it leaves much of the brain's higher-reasoning completely in-tact. You are able to understand that some of what you are experiencing may not be "real". This leads (again, in my experience) to a very profound and serious feeling of confusion and fear.

Being confronted with a reality which is in part or whole known (by the self) to be "not real" leads to fear. Why? I think it must be because we base our reality and what is "real" or The Truth on our senses. The moment our senses begin to fail us we lose much of what we believe as True.

I'm off on a limb.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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