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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: Truth? [Re: Phred]
    #978716 - 10/21/02 04:45 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I would probably choose very slightly different wording, or I might choose to emphasize a word with bold type rather than capital letters.

Then that means that the content of your post is predetermined and the wording is slightly random. Sorry, I still don't get where volition comes in. By what you said, the wording of a post is not under your control, because something that is under your control would depend solely on the state of your mind. If your state of mind is exactly the same and still the wording of your post is different, how could you possibly argue that it was under your control? I just don't get it. Maybe I'm too stupid for metaphysics.

This is what happens if I goof up the first post and delete it by accident, for example. and have to retype it

Which is something totally different. If you retype a post, the circumstances have changed. For example, you have taken at least one breath, which means that your brain contains a different amount of oxygen, which could trigger a slightly different behaviour.


Edited by Nomad (10/21/02 06:19 AM)


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: Truth? [Re: Nomad]
    #979084 - 10/21/02 07:49 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Then that means that the content of your post is predetermined and the wording is slightly random.

Not at all. For predeterminism to hold true, EVERYTHING must occur PRECISELY as it did the first time (using your "snapshot" example). It is not enough for the meaning alone to be the same, but also for the exact sequence of letters to be the same, the exact amount of time taken to compose the message to be the same, etc.

By what you said, the wording of a post is not under your control, because something that is under your control would depend solely on the state of your mind.

But the wording of my post DOES depend solely on my state of mind. What I type is neither predetermined nor random. I type what I CHOOSE to type.

If your state of mind is exactly the same and still the wording of your post is different, how could you possibly argue that it was under your control?

The wording of my post may be slightly different because the english language allows many ways of getting a concept across. I CHOOSE which of several variations *I* find appropriate, but I don't always choose the same variation. Sometimes I repeat a particular grammatical structure for effect, sometimes I deliberately avoid such partial repetition and deliberately use synonyms, sometimes I use proper grammatical constructs, sometimes I use the vernacular.

But regardless of HOW I choose to phrase something, it is *I* who decides how it will be phrased -- not the laws of thermodynamics or chaos theory.

For example, you have taken at least one breath, which means that your brain contains a different amount of oxygen, which could trigger a slightly different behaviour.

If you believe every aspect of your behavior is forced on you by the amount of oxygen in your blood, or the ambient temperature or whatever, then philosophy for you is a null concept.

pinky



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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Truth? [Re: Phred]
    #979475 - 10/21/02 11:33 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

But regardless of HOW I choose to phrase something, it is *I* who decides how it will be phrased -- not the laws of thermodynamics or chaos theory.

Determinist: "You can't prove it isn't due to some super-complex pattern..."
Sclorch: "Shut up!" *bitchslaps determinist*
Determinist: "Ow! Why'd you do that?"
Sclorch: "What... do you expect me to be sorry? I didn't have a choice."


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: Truth? [Re: Phred]
    #979515 - 10/21/02 11:56 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

But the wording of my post DOES depend solely on my state of mind. What I type is neither predetermined nor random. I type what I CHOOSE to type.

I see.

If you believe every aspect of your behavior is forced on you by the amount of oxygen in your blood, or the ambient temperature or whatever, then philosophy for you is a null concept.

I don't. I'm a solipsist in the same sense a child is a solipsist before it starts to build up a theory about how things ought to be.


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Truth? [Re: Phred]
    #979584 - 10/21/02 12:39 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

... am I just somehow missing the boat entirely here?

Well, yeah kind of. But it may also be that I am not doing the best job of bridging the gap between zen idealism and realism with my words here. Anyway, if you have enough interest in this topic, I say we hold out for Mr. Mushroom's response- he may shed some light on this discrepancy- likely a stalemate anyway.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Anonymous

Re: Truth? [Re: buttonion]
    #980012 - 10/21/02 04:08 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Let us say for now that I am 'calmly watching'. I have been reading all the threads and posts, thinking about this issue, watching you and pinky misinterpret each others posts, and reading several books. At one point I actually was going to post about Godel's theorem and how is relates to our discussion. I have given the issue some very heavy thought and may have an answer to the riddle. Of course over the duration I have had to reexamine my own bias to see how strongly it might be unduly influencing my thought. If you have something worth splicing into my worldview I certainly do not want to miss it. I cannot promise that my reply will be anytime soon as I am plagued with political committments at this time.

Cheers,


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