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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: DieCommie]
    #11612316 -

on no, don't give up!

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: DieCommie]
    #11613443 -

aren't the models
DieCommie said:
  Better to say the models describe observations I think.  Who gives a fuck about reality.



Don't the models describe the structure and forces that give rise to the observations?

Yeah I think there is no hope of finding reality, and this is not a post modern but a very pre modern idea.

Edited by Freedom (12/08/09 10:27 PM)

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: fireworks_god]
    #11614460 -

fireworks_god said:
I see what you are saying, but really the breadth of the matter is coming down to what meaning is being given to "knowing it" and "certainty", so if you could expand on a broader context for those, it'd be great. :wink:


I hope you're not limiting your scope solely to swinging hatchets with Icelander, 'cause I'd love to hear from you on this one. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: fireworks_god]
    #11614586 -

If anyone is going to continue to try and forward an assumption about reality, or a surreal, unrealistic example of what reality 'might' actually be, then they can do so on their thread becuase that is nothing more than pseudo-intellectual masturbation that is endless and results in nothing but endless speculation and context dropping.

The fact that an objective reality exists is axiomatic. The concepts of proof, truth and evidence presuppose a reality then we can perceive, investigate and test to discover and integrate knowledge about. It is self-evident that there is a reality and that we possess a conciousness capable of perceiving it. It is intellectual dishonesty to attempt to sneak in speculative assumptions and unrealistic examples to attempt to refute this, the evidence of the senses and facts of reality.

Edited by RationalEgo (12/09/09 04:13 AM)

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: fireworks_god]
    #11614605 -

fireworks_god said:
fireworks_god said:
I see what you are saying, but really the breadth of the matter is coming down to what meaning is being given to "knowing it" and "certainty", so if you could expand on a broader context for those, it'd be great. :wink:


I hope you're not limiting your scope solely to swinging hatchets with Icelander, 'cause I'd love to hear from you on this one. :wink:


Since this is related to the discussion I will forward two quotes that illuminate what I mean by 'Knowledge' and 'Certainty'.

"“Knowledge” is . . . a mental grasp of a fact(s) of reality, reached either by perceptual observation or by a process of reason based on perceptual observation." -AR

"“Certain” represents an assessment of the evidence for a conclusion; it is usually contrasted with two other broad types of assessment: “possible” and “probable.” . . .

Idea X is “certain” if, in a given context of knowledge, the evidence for X is conclusive. In such a context, all the evidence supports X and there is no evidence to support any alternative &hellip.

You cannot challenge a claim to certainty by means of an arbitrary declaration of a counter-possibility, . . . you cannot manufacture possibilities without evidence . . . .

All the main attacks on certainty depend on evading its contextual character . . . .

The alternative is not to feign omniscience, erecting every discovery into an out-of-context absolute, or to embrace skepticism and claim that knowledge is impossible. Both these policies accept omniscience as the standard: the dogmatists pretend to have it, the skeptics bemoan their lack of it. The rational policy is to discard the very notion of omniscience. Knowledge is contextual—it is knowledge, it is valid, contextually." - Leonard Peikoff

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11614724 -

Thanks for the elaboration, I agree. :thumbup:
I think there are a great number of things that I can personally be certain of, things that aren't just probable. There's a cat sitting next to me and its not just probable that the cat is there, its certain. One can question precisely what that means, the nature of this phenomenon and what it entails, perhaps its an illusion insomuch that everything I experience is an illusion, yet, as you stated, the certainty is contextual to our mode of operation and perception.
The cat is certainly being perceived to be there, its knowledge with clear predictive value as I can interact with my environment in certain ways that continue to confirm its presence and nature, from physically investigating its presence and nature to discussing its presence and nature with others. Its "there" as much as anything can be.
Questioning the nature of how things in general are - its just a dream, etc. - doesn't change the relative, certain value of its presence within that context. :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense *DELETED* [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11614794 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: Reason?

Edited by Lakefingers (12/09/09 04:24 AM)

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense *DELETED* [Re: figmentfragment]
    #11614813 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11614821 -

he knows because he knows and he knows and he knows










lol, i just find it funny that "rational ego" is having his own psychology examined for being hypocritically "fundie" and bringing out his own demise as "rational ego"

but hey, i guess it's rational. it's only rational. :shrug:

no offence intended, it's actually a compliment. :lol:

Edited by akira_akuma (12/09/09 04:37 AM)

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense *DELETED* [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11614833 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense *DELETED* [Re: akira_akuma]
    #11614840 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11614843 -

:imslow:

naw, ya think? and since it's an ego doin the work... :shrug:

well, let me clarify... in my opinion, the ego is something that has a constant conflict if you will; as it's always trying to adapt, or be adept to the new.

sooo... in that way it's actually a perfect self-serving automation for your brain to rely on. so.. figure it out, ego :thumbup:

Edited by akira_akuma (12/09/09 04:54 AM)

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11614845 -

Don't twist my words, I said that if you agree with the ideas the prevailed in Nazi Germany and in the Dark Ages and are not concerned that they are resurfacing in our culture today, then perhaps you might have been comfortable living in those times and places.

To question what is axiomatic is absurd, why? Because the fact that things exist and that you have a mind capable of observing and knowing makes the very existence of philosophy possible. To then doubt the validity of basis on which it relies is absurd and self-defeating.

I already said previously that it is the fundamentalists who try to get you to doubt your minds efficacy and the validity of reality. I am not in any way acting like them or putting forwards any argument remotely akin to theirs.

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11614848 -

considering (most people here) continue to say the same thing all the time... is it for yourself that you're arguing? just a question...:shrug:

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11614916 -

Quote:
The facts of reality and the illusions that arise from the senses are philosophical matters. It's fairly simple really, you're not going to prevent those philosophical thoughts and questions from arising in people's heads unless you brainwash everyone or genetically alter humans to follow the axioms of objectivism.


Asking people to think logically, to rely on reason (and the axiomatic ground on which it is based) and reality to form their concepts is no where near brainwashing. Are you suggesting that Aristotle's work and other enlightenment thinkers brainwashed us into an enlightened age of reason? Are you suggesting that the luxuries of modern scientific discoveries and the philosophies that brought about civilization itself are a result of brainwashing? Again you are conflating reason with faith.

Brainwashing is when one attempts to deny reason and reality, it is exactly those erroneous and destructive philisophical premises that I am challenging. Challenging the ideas of those who deny reality, the efficacy of the mind and the capability of the mind to know is what I have done in this thread. The obvious is the obvious. I'd love to see you try to attempt to refute the axioms of Objectivism without contradicting yourself and proving those axioms in the process.

Edited by RationalEgo (12/09/09 05:38 AM)

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: akira_akuma]
    #11614933 -

akira_akuma said:
considering (most people here) continue to say the same thing all the time... is it for yourself that you're arguing? just a question...:shrug:


Sure, I'm honing my debating skills and integrating and expressing my ideas here in this free market of ideas for my own self-interest.


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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11614944 -

i'd say your honing more then your "debating" skillz.

you have no intent on being here other then... some automatic robot-like functionality? like you need to hone your "skillz" at all...

i know you never said that.... but is it for no other reason that your "debating" here at all? simple question

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: akira_akuma]
    #11614966 -

:rolleyes:

I just told you why I am here so enough with the stupid ad homenins. I gain many benefitd from debating here and testing my knowledge in an open market of ideas.

Now what I want to know are you going to contribute to this thread any further or not? Are you even going to put forward and idea and stick to the topic?

Edited by RationalEgo (12/09/09 06:00 AM)

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: akira_akuma]
    #11615131 -

akira_akuma said:
i'd say your honing more then your "debating" skillz.

you have no intent on being here other then... some automatic robot-like functionality? like you need to hone your "skillz" at all...

i know you never said that.... but is it for no other reason that your "debating" here at all? simple question


Can't utilize the moderator notification button so here's my moderator notification. Hopefully akira_akuma will realize that they shouldn't post here if they aren't going to follow the rules.........


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11615214 -

and unrealistic examples to attempt to refute this,

You have yet to show how my example was unrealistic, in fact I think you acknowledged the possibility of it?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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