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What is the Truth?
    #1232289 -

What is the Truth?
I mean, how do you recognize it?

If the shrooms give you the feeling that you get in touch with the truth, then, is the truth just something chemical that happens in your brain, or the psilocybin really opens your mind to the external, universal Truth?
How do you know if something is true? If it's just something you perceive or feel, how can you really trust your senses or feelings?
Does an external Truth exist, or everything is just in our brain?

This it the ultimate question I started asking me after my last trip... I feel like I can't go on living if I don't have the answer to this...

Any help?

A zen teacher would tell me it's the wrong question... or would answer me with a paradoxical thing... I don't need this... I'd like to have some of your reflection on this topic...

Thank you,

Andrash


--------------------
--- Who am I, where is me, when I' am away from myself? --- F. Battiato

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1232340 -

Well, the truth is different in everyones mind. Usually it is what seems most meaningful, and I think it is good to set the meaningful events up as a reality map. As long as you don't think of them as too real, it is good and healthy.

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #1232483 -

there is only truth. its just how u interperit it.


--------------------
KB

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1232485 -

In my case though, I am constantly changing truths. My mind goes from one to the other or rather questions experiences. I am trying to encorporate some routine into my life to stop that and stick to reality maps that aren't scary.

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #1232617 -

I've found right now that Mr Mushrooms has already posted a question like this... that thread is very long, so it'll take time to read it all...

I'll be back!

Andrash


--------------------
--- Who am I, where is me, when I' am away from myself? --- F. Battiato

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1232619 -

Experience is Truth. Thus Mind and its many games and obstacles leads you away from the exctasy of felt exerience.
Everything is Part of The Truth, but as I say, felt experience within and from the body, has a certain "touch" of undeniable truth to it.
Maybe not THE truth (all is the truth, there is no truth) but still True enough.

I could go on ranting for ever about this though, but i wont.

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: LucidDreams]
    #1232846 -

You say experience is truth.
The experience is done through the senses. The senses are often wrong or relative. So how can you trust in your senses?
There is also the misinterpretation of the experience... because your mind is like a filter for it.

Logic sounds true. But is it true or is it only logic?
Logic is a product of mind. It is the product that tells us if something can be referred as true.

I need to study more about this...
It's a lot of time I don't study classical philosophy... since high school...
Maybe I should get my books and find some answers...

Peace,

Andrash





--------------------
--- Who am I, where is me, when I' am away from myself? --- F. Battiato

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1232903 -

Stop being silly; what kind of truth are you looking for?

There is no "Final Truth" - was there a certain truth you were looking for? If you don't know what you're looking for, how can you find it?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1233265 -

My main question is not actually WHAT is the Truth... but How do you know if something is true or not...
I don't want answers like "the truth is that we are all part of god" or "reality is just an illusion of senses", but what I would like to discuss is what is the process of recognition of truth... is it clearer?

Sorry but it's quite hard to speak about such matters in my own language, in English is even more difficult, but I do appreciate the replies from the shroomery, because it's like a group of friend... even if it's little time that I joined the community, everyone of you has been important with his experience of mind exploration through the shrooms.

Anyway... you say there is no final truth. That's your point of view. But how can you be so sure of this?

Andrash



--------------------
--- Who am I, where is me, when I' am away from myself? --- F. Battiato

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1233323 -

Quote:
I've found right now that Mr Mushrooms has already posted a question like this... that thread is very long, so it'll take time to read it all...

I'll be back!

Andrash 


Oddly enough I would have suggested the same course of action.  I wonder why? :wink:

Please don't bump the thread when you find it.  I am still formulating my reply to buttonion et al. :smile:

Cheers

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1233348 -

well as for the questions you presented, there is no truth yet.

Truth only exists once PROOF exists :smile:

As for descerning truth from BS concerning topics which have already been proven, finding truth is easy with internet access and some good critical thinking skills :-D

Good luck, my man. With the "Is there a God" type of questions, I feel that whatever you believe is as good as "True" until proven otherwise. Believers tend to take advantage of this, but these issues are truely subjective until there is objective proof either way.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1233529 -

When Pontius Pilate asked the Christ this question,
the Christ replied with silence.

Nuff said.


--------------------
* * * * * * * * * *
Read the Landotter's Mystical Journey Journal

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1233838 -

With truth, there is no contradiction. Contradiction is a sign that further investigation is in order. For instance, I remember years ago that I read the statement 'it is mathematically impossible for a bumble bee to fly' (this was used as an argument for the existence of god). My thoughts on the matter are that the mathematics/science used to arrive at the conclusion are false, since in fact bumble bees do fly.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Edited by Evolving (01/20/03 10:06 AM)

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: Evolving]
    #1233849 -

hehe yeah I've read that bumble-bee thing as well :smile:

No matter what scientists say, we see bees flying around all the time..... its only a matter of time before we figure out what those tricky little bastards are doing :wink: heheh


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1234211 -

"This is not necessarily the truth, this is what Wittgenstein would have called an exercise in searching for that which is true enough." -Terence Mckenna

This is The Great Timestream Bifurcation

Read and feel
Eat and choose

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1234233 -

All great truths are paradoxes

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1234268 -

Quote:
What is the Truth?
I mean, how do you recognize it?



You will recognize it when you no longer need to question what Truth is.

Quote:
A zen teacher would tell me it's the wrong question...



It is not wrong to question any more than it is correct. Question until you can find no more questions to ask...


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

Edited by Seuss (01/20/03 12:55 PM)

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: Seuss]
    #1234377 -

Just because I run, doesn't make me a runner.
But since we are the people who are philosophizing (sp?), does that make us the philosophers of our time?

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1234516 -

I just thought I'd pop in with a link to an interesting essay on truth I just read.


--------------------
Happy mushrooming!

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1235148 -

why the need for a Truth?

the Truth, is that there is no need for truth. If you bother yourself trying to understand something so complex, you will never make sense out of it. you cannot put it into words, so if you think with words, you cannot comprehend the entirity of truth. it is a feeling, so it can be felt, but to try to understand it, makes understanding it impossible.


--------------------
"I think it's time we stop
Children, What's the sound,
Everybody look what's going down"

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: SnuffelzFurever]
    #1235494 -

My reflections on the recognition of Truth:

I refer to myself as a human being made of three different parts: a body, a mind, a soul.
These three parts are the basis of what I know about myself.
I do know that I own a body because I can sense it.
I do know that I own a mind because I do think, that is thoughts are products of a mind.
I do know that I own a soul because I have feelings, that is feelings are products of a soul.

Starting from this, I can say that "if" an external truth exists, it interacts with these three parts of myself. So Reality is the Truth that is being filtered by these three parts as a whole.

Since I was born, this process was automatic and unaware. I started to build a reality model, that is a model to recognize the Truth. So that if an event would go under a certain scheme, I perceived it as true.

Now I must consider that experience has showed that both senses and thoughts are sometimes illusory or wrong. For this reason mankind has developed science to improve measurement (of things that can be perceived through senses) and logic/philosophy to improve thinking.

But there is no way to measure or to reason on feelings. Feelings are self evident. If you love someone, you only need to know it, to say that it is true. No one else can say you are wrong.

A truth that is perceived through senses or thoughts may always be illusory or wrong. But a truth perceived through the feelings, cannot be further investigated. There is no explanation to it. You only have to accept it for what it is.

For this reason the Truth can be perceived as it is only through your feelings.

The heart is the key to Knowledge of the Truth.

Who is afraid of his heart will be always kept on an illusory search for a Truth that never ends.
Who trust in his heart will reach the Truth itself.

Peace,

Andrash


--------------------
--- Who am I, where is me, when I' am away from myself? --- F. Battiato

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1241305 -

... no comments???

:confused:

Andrash


--------------------
--- Who am I, where is me, when I' am away from myself? --- F. Battiato

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: ]
    #1241373 -

Quote:
Just because I run, doesn't make me a runner.


So when you are running, if you are not a runner, what are you?


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1241613 -

Quote:
I do know that I own a soul because I have feelings, that is feelings are products of a soul.


Actually, Andrash, if you want to get v. technical, feelings are really the result of complex chemical reactions within your somatic and neurological structures. The proof of this can be found easily. Simply don't eat or drink anything today and see how you "feel" tomorrow, both in your body and your emotions.

The Truth you are looking for lies beyond all these verifiable/non-verifiable phenomena. The Truth is a state of being. Find it and live in it and hang the details before they hang you.


the Landotter


--------------------
* * * * * * * * * *
Read the Landotter's Mystical Journey Journal

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: the_Landotter]
    #1241677 -

Jesus said.. " I am the Way. the Truth and the Light, No man comes to the Father BUT by Me."

If you don't know Jesus you don't know the Truth or God the Father.
:smile: :cool: 


--------------------
"~Dream as if you'll live forever....live as if you'll die today~ James Dean"

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: Bavet]
    #1242054 -

Man, I get dillusions of grandeur when I'm really messed up on MDMA or psychedelics, but that Jesus guy sounds pretty darn full of himself. :shocked: 

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1242064 -

The truth is god (all subjects and matters)

For the truth, check out the second coming of christ post!


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1242069 -

What is God?
"God is Everything!"
Then why don't we just say 'Everything!' instead of saying God if that's what we really mean?

Because then we sound like mushroom eating hippies instead of wonderful grade a christian citizens! :crazy: 

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1242122 -

if you ebelive something 100% then it is the truth...for you


--------------------
Crash a cig guvnor?

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: ]
    #1242144 -

I think God is a better way...


--------------------
Crash a cig guvnor?

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1242625 -

I have some comments, but I did need time to digest what you wrote. Good stuff. At first glance, I spontaneously agreed. Then, thinking about it, I completely disagreed. Now I'm stuck somewhere in the middle. Two points.

1. I disagree that feelings are truth. I would like to think that truth is revealed in the process of understanding something. Just because you love or hate someone, that does not mean that you have understood him.

2. Feelings are more important than truth. That is because truth can always be illusionary, or delusional. No matter how deep you understand something, no matter how clearly it is laid out before you, it could still be just that evil alien who tricked you into believing nonsense.

Feelings are never illusionary. Even if the evil alien tricked you into loving someone, that love would be 100% real.

Edited by Nomad (01/23/03 10:01 AM)

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: Nomad]
    #1243293 -

That happened to me  :shocked:
Chronic Liar she called herself  :smile:

When you come to find out that what you loved was a lie, you think to yourself "damn good lie!"

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: Nomad]
    #1243753 -

I think that truth is what you Know. If theres any doubt then its not true-or- COULD be true.
For example is evolution true? Well I can see it happening and there is alot of proof but I have a doubt so for me it isnt true..that doesnt mean I dont have faith that it is probally true simply that I dont no. Now does that make it true or not , not really but as far as I know its the only way a human can know truth.
you cant really prove truth to someone they have to know it.
that is why I say I dont know much :wink:
Go with what YOU KNOW..if theres any doubt theres a reason

Edited by shaggy101 (01/23/03 04:14 PM)

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: Nomad]
    #1244371 -

Dear Nomad,
I didn't mean that feelings are truth. Feelings are true. If you love, you know it. If you love someone, it has nothing to do with understanding him. Simply, no one can tell you that it isn't true. It doesn't mean that love cannot be an illusion, but while you're under its power, there is no way to prove that it is an illusion.
You can be right saying that feelings are more important than truth, but no more important than Truth.

Now we can consider that human mind acts in two ways. The rational and the intuitive way. The first can be illusory, true or false. The other cannot be deceived. If you have a sudden intuition of Truth, you can just enjoy it. That's no need to argue anymore (Cranberries rule!)
This is the way of the Buddha. This path follow the heart, the feelings.

Or you can just use your rational mind. There's no escape to it. You will spend all your life between logic, thoughts, mind loops. And you will never get near the Truth. Unless you are a scientist who discover how to weigh the thoughts.

It's up to you to choose one way or the other.

Have a nice human day,

Andrash


--------------------
--- Who am I, where is me, when I' am away from myself? --- F. Battiato

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1244554 -

This is the way of the Buddha. This path follow the heart, the feelings.

Yes. But also, don't forget to kill the Buddha.


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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: Nomad]
    #1244569 -

:grin:

Andrash!!!


--------------------
--- Who am I, where is me, when I' am away from myself? --- F. Battiato

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1245190 -

Or you can just use your rational mind. There's no escape to it. You will spend all your life between logic, thoughts, mind loops. And you will never get near the Truth. Unless you are a scientist who discover how to weigh the thoughts.

So true.  :grin:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1245201 -

Who is to say what the truth really is?


--------------------
Listen, or your tongue will keep you deaf. :wink:
ŦēҜй? - ??ĜįĈ?? ҒűČҝĮńĜ ?đVǻŃčЄмЄńŦ

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1246002 -

You must be using the word Truth in the Absolute sense, rather than the relative sense of meaning. The latter meaning can help one to approach the former. Even a statement that refers to something relatively true - something that can change - approximates that which is ultimately true in that it states 'what is,' or the 'isness' of the present moment. Now, you didn't want a Zen-like answer, and I'm not attempting to do that. What came to mind mind when I read your question is what Landotter posted about Pilate's question to Jesus, "What is the truth?" The silence of Jesus has been the source of many books over the centuries, but as one of my seminary professors once put it - that silence was "pregnant with meaning." The meaning, and perhaps an entering wedge into an answer for you, is about two inter-related terms: Presence and the Present.

Without trying to sound 'cosmic,' any more than Zen-like, the Self-evident Presence of the man Jesus of Nazareth would have filled even the open-air interrogation of Pontius Pilate. Pilate's experience of that moment was not of a meek, weak, or ineffectual man on trial for his life, silently surrounded by the very air, and eyeballed by onlookers. Whatever this Roman potentate experienced, he was said to have come away with a conviction of Jesus' innocence. This innocence should not be interpreted merely in the legal sense, but in the deeper sense of a Presence that Jesus taught with His entire being. Jesus was said to have been a man in Whom 'was no guile [deceitful cunning].' "Unless ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven." The innocence and openess that characterize little children (if you'll bear with me) allows for a rather pure experience of 'what is,' of Reality.

Reality, as it appears to an undistorted awareness; an awareness without an agenda to bend and distort one's perception to be used for one's selfish gain, is synonymous with Truth.

The Awareness of Reality, of Truth, should not be understood as an omniscient Awareness of the universe in its entirety. It is evident in the Present human moment - the one shared by Jesus and Pilate (or 'the hedge at the end of the garden,' in the Zen saying). The answer seems to be Awareness itself. It is not even a matter of the content of Awareness, because it is not a matter of a subject being aware of an object. Reality includes both subject and object - it is trans-subjective and Transcendental - and it is Present - here and now, 'closer than your jugular vein,' according to Islam.

Lastly, inasmuch as Truth=Reality=Awareness, and Awareness=Consciousness, Consciousness is added to the equation. Phenomenologists agree that the one, single 'invariant' feature of Consciousness is 'Intentionality,' which basically means Will. So Truth, or Reality or Awareness is characterized by Will. And so, in answer to your question, it looks a lot like the last 'Word' in this string of synonyms is the commonplace English word, God.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: ]
    #1246027 -

Except that the "Me" being referred to is the Logos, known variously in antiquity as the Divine Reason, the ordering principle in the universe, and later as the Second Person of the Trinity (or the Prolation of the Second Hypostasis). That "Me" is not the ego, the temporal identity of a man, a boy, and infant who used to soil His swaddling clothes.

Whether that "Me" that was in Jesus made Jesus different from us 'by degree,' or 'by kind,' is still unanswered by many of us although the Orthodox response is that Jesus was THE unique manifestation of "the Fullness [Pleroma] of the Godhead" clothed in flesh - incarnate. So, if that is true, He wasn't full of "himself," He was full of God.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1246052 -

I love that one

"The only way to search the Scriptures is to lay down every predjudice, every preconceived opinion, at the very door of investigation, and then enter into the work with an eye single to the glory of God, with an understanding open to conviction, and a heart softened to believe what the lord says to you."
relative-

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: andrash]
    #1246145 -

'Truth' is a red herring. A label that destroys your chances of ever fully understanding whatever you attach it to.

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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1246502 -

Unfortunately, noone can be told what the matrix is. You have to see it for yourself.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: What is the Truth? [Re: Murex]
    #1246602 -

Take the red pill!

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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