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"Sometimes truth defies reason"
    #896163 -

"...Sometimes truth defies reason."

This was quoted from a movie i saw earlier today. The movie was  Frailty. An interesting movie, in a whacked out, crazy sort of way. I posted this for those who live by reason, to think on.  :grin:   


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896236 -

Maybe we can't fully grasp "the truth", because we can't handle it.  :blush: 


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #896250 -

the truth is... the truth is ugly.  :crazy: 


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896253 -

I am not sure what I am supposed to think on.

Let's see, we are communicating in a highly complex way based on... ta da! - reason!

We have a War on Drugs based on.... lack of reason!

We have conquered many diseases because of... reason!

We have racism and sexism based on... lack of reason!

We landed on the moon because we used ... reason!

The Heaven's Gate (haven't used this in many months) suicides were based on... lack of reason.


Thank you for clearing that up.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896260 -

if such "truths" defy reason, how is it to be determined in any sort of objective way that they are truths? how is it to be determined that any "unreasonable" truth isn't wrong and that some other unreasonable truth is true? we can't know ultimately that our feet are on the ground or that atoms exist or that anything other than ourselves exists at all, but that which reason dictates is the only thing useful in the existence that we apparently inhabit. anything else is just completely indeterminable speculation. not to say that it is a bad thing, but it's useless trying to push it as "truth"


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896265 -

You are going to have your hands full here, my brother. Good luck!


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896266 -

Reason is subjective to each individual. One individuals reason might differ from others. One idea might make logical sense to that individual, but others cant grasp it, or cant even begin to fathom it.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896268 -

Quote:
You are going to have your hands full here, my brother. Good luck! 



I am no one's  brother :wink:  :grin:

and what do you mean by that?


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896277 -

In reply to:
Reason is subjective to each individual. One individuals reason might differ from others. One idea might make logical sense to that individual, but others cant grasp it, or cant even begin to fathom it.



you are speaking of personal truths.
objective(in a loose sense, since it can't be determined that objective truth is in actuality objective, but it's objective as far as man can figure) truths can be seen and understood by anyone with a properly functioning brain and the proper information.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896292 -

Brother as in "fellow skeptic/ rational thinker".

As one with some 3600 posts (I have no life), you will make very little progress with the close-minded ones here who claim to be open-minded.

Every manner of gibberish, from Atlantis to Crop Cirlces to Reptilians to telepathy, is revered as truth and ayone who questions those pet subjects is the subject to harsh judgement.

Most here seem to be looking for agreement rather than real examination of any core issues.

And that is why I wished you "luck".

Comprende? (If you don't now, you soon will!)


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896295 -

you are lost in a sea of logic, my friend.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896300 -

well then, "sister" would  suffice :smile:

and lol

have you ever read "The Demon-Haunted World" by  Carl Sagan?
excellent book.
highly recommended.
I think you'd like it.
and I think everyone should read it, regardless.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896303 -

In reply to:
you are lost in a sea of logic, my friend.



as opposed to a sea of illogic, I'll take that as a compliment.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896315 -

You have mistaken me for someone else Swami. Dont think i do not know you. You seem very judgemental. I am very open-minded. I, too, am a logical thinker. I try and analyze all aspects of something. But if i were to lean to either side of Skeptic or Believer...i would lean slightly towards Believer. I come to this forum for interesting new ideas, angles, and aspects on life and philosophy. If anyone here were close-minded, the finger (i really dont like finger-pointing) would be pointed at yourself. I've been reading these boards for some time now, and posting for a shorter period... but i have never seen you budge from your skeptical role. You will never step across that line. It is almost as if you fear to leave your skeptical position. You are afraid to believe in anything. Especially, if a large group of people already believe in it.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896317 -

Every manner of gibberish, from Atlantis to Crop Cirlces to Reptilians to telepathy, is revered as truth and ayone who questions those pet subjects is the subject to harsh judgement.

Um, I think you are exagerating just a little bit... I think we all can somewhat agree that these things need to be questioned.

What frustrates me is when people assume that just because you can't prove something in a laboratory, that automatically makes it false...


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896319 -

Yes, I have. Sagan had his good points in captivating the masses imagination regarding science, but also had a huge ego with the inherent flaws that go with thinking you are a demi-god. Read Robert Anton Wilson's take on Sagan.

Sorry, I assumed you to be male for two reasons:

1. Your handle - now if you were Albino_Mary...

2. Very few women come here to debate, and particularly not as skeptics.



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896335 -

In reply to:
Yes, I have. Sagan had his good points in captivating the masses imagination regarding science, but also had a huge ego with the inherent flaws that go with thinking you are a demi-god. Read Robert Anton Wilson's take on Sagan.





yeah, the book is quite a big ironic-sarcasm-ego-trip but I think for the most part it's a great book


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #896339 -

Um, I think you are exagerating just a little bit... I think we all can somewhat agree that these things need to be questioned.
Am I? The longest posts deal with fantasy. The most vehement personal attacks come when pointing out the flaws in someone's pet esoteric subject.

What frustrates me is when people assume that just because you can't prove something in a laboratory, that automatically makes it false...
This is highly erroneous. I have offered time and time again to prove/disprove some metaphsyical claim when people have clearly stated for the record that their favorite bit of magick could be done repeatedly. If something can be repeated on demand , it can be tested. (Doesn't require a laboratory and men in white coast with clipboards.)

Every single time the poster backed down or ignored my challenge, or took the challenge and failed miserably.

Because something cannot be tested does not make it false, but it certainly makes it suspect and open to close scrutiny.

Reason is NOT the enemy of truth.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #896341 -

In reply to:
What frustrates me is when people assume that just because you can't prove something in a laboratory, that automatically makes it false...



I won't assert that such things are always false, but they can't be determined to be true, so I can't accept them as such


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896342 -

Zakkly!


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896350 -

i will agree. Reason is not the enemy of truth. But Reason can blind you from ever seeing the truth.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896357 -

But Reason can blind you from ever seeing the truth.

That is a fairly huge, blanket statement. Care to elucidate?



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896360 -

In reply to:
I won't assert that such things are always false, but they can't be determined to be true, so I can't accept them as such

Well what if you experienced something that couldn't be "proved" in a way such as Swami suggests... Would you accept them as true or would you deny them?

I see where your coming from Swami, but when things happen to me that can't be "proved", I certainly question my experience but I can't deny it.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #896368 -

In reply to:
Well what if you experienced something that couldn't be "proved" in a way such as Swami suggests... Would you accept them as true ?



no.

they may have been hallucinations. a lot of people here think they've "seen god" or "experienced" something else whilst ignoring the fact that they were - hello - on hallucinogenicc drugs. (!)
hallucinations can happen whilst sober as well. it cannot be determined if these experiences are hallucinations or real, and they are only a temporary existence, so why should they be considered truths or even useful when I inhabit a reality completely unlike?


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896370 -

In reply to:
That is a fairly huge, blanket statement. Care to elucidate?



When everyone believed the earth was flat, it was at the time, a logical and rational statment. People believed it was "reasonable".



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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896380 -

Okay well what about telepathy? What if it happened to you more than once, but you knew no way of forcing it to happen for the sake of proving it's existence to someone?

Also, you talk like hallucinations are more of an illusion than reality... IMO, "reality" could be just as much of an illusion. There are things at the microscopic level that make up what we perceive as real, but when percieved at the microscopic level, become very different. So what you think of as being real could very well be an illusion... not necessarily false, but not in it's true form.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896387 -

In reply to:
People believed it was "reasonable".




so? when science was nonexistent, it was all that could be determined. the earth looked flat to everyone, so what reason was there to believe that it was round?

now we have a wider perspective, and can take a step away from the earth(or even without stepping back) and see, through reason, that it is in fact round. these people couldn't prove the earth was flat, so even though it was "reasonable" in the sense that there was no evidence that it was anything other than flat, it still couldn't be said to be true. now it can.

if some people hold beliefs based on personal experiences or whatever, they can't show evidence to anyone else, and they can't even prove to themselves that it was real, so it may seem "reasonable" to them, but it is not in fact based on reason.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896392 -

Not sure why you bring this up as it was reason and logic that showed otherwise. It was ignorance that believed the earth was flat. (Your use of semantics does not apply).


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896395 -

In reply to:
now we have a wider perspective, and can take a step away from the earth(or even without stepping back) and see, through reason, that it is in fact round.

Ah, yes... but what if there was an even wider perspective?
You can't reasonably believe that there isn't, considering what we know about human evolution up to this point.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896398 -

In reply to:
if some people hold beliefs based on personal experiences or whatever... and they can't even prove to themselves that it was real



The love i feel for certain people is very much real. As real as you and I. But i cant prove this love to you, because you are not me. You are not experiencing this experience i am having.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #896402 -

Okay well what about telepathy? What if it happened to you more than once, but you knew no way of forcing it to happen for the sake of proving it's existence to someone?

*sigh* As usual, we continually cover tired old ground. Let's see, I was thinking of my brother today whom I haven't heard from in 6 months and he called, must be telepathy! Perhaps, but what of the 1,000 times that I thought of him and he DID NOT call?

1. People are wired to see patterns, even if there are none.

2. People have selective memory and forget times when nothing happened.

3. People frequently misinterpret events.

Care to give your examples?



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896405 -

In reply to:
(Your use of semantics does not apply).



You sound like a robot. No offense.

In reply to:
Not sure why you bring this up as it was reason and logic that showed otherwise. It was ignorance that believed the earth was flat.



It was reason and logic, at the time, that made people believe the earth was flat. It only became ignorance when we expanded our reason and logic. Our reason and logic now, might as well be proven to be ignorance.



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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #896411 -

In reply to:
Okay well what about telepathy? What if it happened to you more than once, but you knew no way of forcing it to happen for the sake of proving it's existence to someone?


if it actually happened to myself repeatedly, I'd say I have personal evidence and I'd pursue evidence that I could show to others.
I don't believe telepathy exists, because it has never been shown to be true in tests. I believe that anyone who pushes telepathy as a reality is either lying to themselves or lying to everyone else.
if a real psychic ever existed, don't you think he/she'd have gotten loads of publicity and proved it? why are they all confined to $3 per minute 900-numbers and cheesy little shops in the crap part of town?




Also, you talk like hallucinations are more of an illusion than reality... IMO, "reality" could be just as much of an illusion. There are things at the microscopic level that make up what we perceive as real, but when percieved at the microscopic level, become very different. So what you think of as being real could very well be an illusion... not necessarily false, but not in it's true form.



percieved at a microscopic level, things do not appear "different" just "more detailed" . they are the same things, we can just see the parts that make them up. an apple is still an apple if defined as its genetic code and the molecules that make it up. we just realize that our word "apple" represents not only an image and a taste, but a particular arrangement of molecules.

the reality I see may very well be an illusion, but if so, it's an 18-year-long illusion and it doesn't appear to be ending any time soon. so what applies in this reality is all that I can possibly hope to understand. whether or not it is an illusion is irrelevant to me. if someone gets stuck in an 18-year-long acid trip and different rules of logic apply in that existence, then that's fine. that becomes their reality. that's what they need to understand in order to function in that world. but someone coming off an acid trip and pretending that what happened to them in that altered reality can be applied to this one is silly. you just put chemicals in your brain, der.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896418 -

Care to give your examples?

Sometimes, when I'm feeling especially intuitive, my mind can pick up on what people are going to say before they say it. Right when their brains send the signals to say, I can "pick up" on these signals, before they put the thoughts into words. It's happened many times, with a few close friends...

Not sure if that would be branded telepathy or not...


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896419 -

In reply to:
things do not appear "different" just "more detailed"



Different and more detailed are the same. Either way you are looking at something differently. There is more detail, so it is obviously not as you viewed it before.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896420 -

It was reason and logic, at the time, that made people believe the earth was flat.

First off, this is a myth. Ocean-going sailors were excellent observers and knew the earth was not flat.

Second the hypothesis that the earth was flat was not tested, so it was not subjected to logic and reason as you stipulate, but was based on faulty assumptions being passed down.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896424 -

percieved at a microscopic level, things do not appear "different" just "more detailed" .

Looking at something in more detail would make it appear different.

Just chemicals in the brain huh? That may be true, but these chemicals alter your perception, and allow you to view the same things from different angles. And reality is all about looking at the same things from different angles.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

Edited by Adamist (09/20/02 10:45 PM)

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896430 -

In reply to:
First off, this is a myth. Ocean-going sailors were excellent observers and knew the earth was not flat.



ah. so you knew an Ocean-going sailor from back then, and he told you he knew the Earth wasn't flat? If not, then some might call this a faulty assumption that was passed down. Also known as here-say.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896440 -

In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Your use of semantics does not apply).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You sound like a robot. No offense.

Calling an erroneous stance, logical and rational, merely to enhance your weak argument, is what I object to. How my objection is robotic is beyond my meager powers of erudition.




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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #896441 -

In reply to:
Looking at something in more detail would make it appear different




they do not appear as a different object.

we won't say the apple is no longer an apple will we?

we see a different IMAGE. but we do not see a different entity.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896443 -

I have first-hand experience with that. I have a dooser on my hands at the moment.  A near 4-month+ project built step by step is coming down to a string and a piece of jewelry.  Sorry the cryptics.

Truth, it's a cosmic joke.  That's why you can't reason with it.  :laugh::D

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896446 -

In reply to:
The love i feel for certain people is very much real. As real as you and I. But i cant prove this love to you, because you are not me. You are not experiencing this experience i am having.




you're talking about your own emotions, not something you're attempting to present as objective truth. emotions are subjective reality in it's purest form, and they don't matter.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896449 -

Emotions don't matter?

No offense....... but you are a robot, aren't you?


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896450 -

I meant no offense. It was just a comment. It was not my intension to enhance my  weak argument. You just reminded me of a robot saying "Does not compute! Does not compute!" or even "Danger Will Robinson! Danger!"

BTW, thank you for calling my argument weak. It means a lot coming from "The GREAT Swami"  :shocked: One word. Haughty. 


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #896452 -

In reply to:
Sometimes, when I'm feeling especially intuitive, my mind can pick up on what people are going to say before they say it. Right when their brains send the signals to say, I can "pick up" on these signals, before they put the thoughts into words. It's happened many times, with a few close friends...



could it just be that you know your friends so well that you've gotten to the point that you can subconsciously see (through subconscious logic and reason) where they're going with a thought before they've spoken it? can it be determined that this is the case or that it is in fact telepathy? does the fact that it only happens with "a few close friends" and not strangers point a finger at either?


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896459 -

I've considered the possibility, but the fact that sometimes they are not even talking about anything related to the next topic of discussion inclines me to believe that I am picking up on what they are thinking.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896462 -

ah. so you knew an Ocean-going sailor from back then, and he told you he knew the Earth wasn't flat?

Yes, I was that sailor and reincarnated. This was based on OBSERVATION and did not need to be passed down. The could SEE the masts of tall ships appearing before the hull.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #896465 -

Quote:
I've considered the possibility, but the fact that sometimes they are not even talking about anything related to the next topic of discussion inclines me to believe that I am picking up on what they are thinking. 




it's happened to me as well, but out of all the times you've talked to these close friends, what are the odds that occasionally you'll think the same thing at the same time? :smile:
I see it as inevitable that these things will happen
like "seeing" things in dreams before they happen.
how many times did you dream of something that didn't happen?
how many times did you not know what your friend was thinking?


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896466 -

if it actually happened to myself repeatedly, I'd say I have personal evidence and I'd pursue evidence that I could show to others.
I don't believe telepathy exists, because it has never been shown to be true in tests. I believe that anyone who pushes telepathy as a reality is either lying to themselves or lying to everyone else.

I suppose if you're going to rely on a third-party to verify your beliefs, that doesn't say much does it?

if a real psychic ever existed, don't you think he/she'd have gotten loads of publicity and proved it? why are they all confined to $3 per minute 900-numbers and cheesy little shops in the crap part of town?

That's because 'they're' "baloney sandwiches smothered in cream cheese." But does that make every medium a phony?

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #896469 -

In reply to:
Emotions don't matter?

No offense....... but you are a robot, aren't you?



they don't matter in the context of this discussion. we're talking about logic and reason and truth. emotions usually aren't based on reason and only apply to one person's internal existence and have nothing to do with the reality we all share.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Calen]
    #896473 -

But does that make every medium a phony?

If no medium can demonstrate otherwise, it certainly does.


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (09/20/02 11:22 PM)

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896480 -

If i was an actual psychic medium (one that could prove the existance of ESP and telepathy), i definitly would not broadcast it. Would you? I would keep my secret a secret, and tell no one. Otherwise, it would most likely ruin my everyday life.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Calen]
    #896489 -

In reply to:
I suppose if you're going to rely on a third-party to verify your beliefs, that doesn't say much does it?



if no third party can verify such beliefs, how can they be determined truths? they must be dismissed as mere beliefs.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896493 -

I suppose if you're going to rely on a third-party to verify your beliefs, that doesn't say much does it?

I suppose those third-parties that wanted to verify the "cold-fusion" claims were pretty pathetic scientists....



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896498 -

If i was an actual psychic medium (one that could prove the existance of ESP and telepathy), i definitly would not broadcast it. Would you? I would keep my secret a secret, and tell no one. Otherwise, it would most likely ruin my everyday life.

As you are not an actual medium, you cannot stae what they would or would not do.

As usual, this has been covered in g-r-e-a-t depth previously. We all know that humans have no egos and that those who can run a sub 3:50 mile do so in secret; just like the world's greatest basketball players all do so out of public view. Too bad we have to settle for the also-rans like Jordan and Johnson...


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896499 -

Quote:
I suppose if you're going to rely on a third-party to verify your beliefs, that doesn't say much does it?

------------
I suppose those third-parties that wanted to verify the "cold-fusion" claims were pretty pathetic scientists....
 



lololol
wit.
what this forum needs more of :smile:


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896508 -

I KNOW that if i proved myself a psychic medium, i would have scientific people like you always trying to run tests on me to make sure i wasnt a "fluke". You cant deny that you wouldnt swami, because you would deny the existence of an actual psychic medium until the end. Until you, yourself get to examine him/her.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896513 -

uh ohhhhhhhhh! ive questioned the great swami and albino jesus, so now ive lost my second mushroom. Not a big fall.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896517 -

Can you possibly come up with a weaker argument? Just when I thought it was not possible...

Instead of "reading my mind" and intentions as to what I will or won't accept, WHY YOU DON"T YOU CLEARLY DEMONSTRATE FIRST, then berate my close-mindedness. I have proposed several fair and unbiased challenges with no takers.

This is just another tired believer dodge. *yawn*


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896525 -

In reply to:
I KNOW that if i proved myself a psychic medium, i would have scientific people like you always trying to run tests on me to make sure i wasnt a "fluke". You cant deny that you wouldnt swami, because you would deny the existence of an actual psychic medium until the end. Until you, yourself get to examine him/her.




how, exactly, are you disagreeing with us with this statement?
of course you would be tested repeatedly. it's how science works. if we tested you repeatedly and couldn't find any reason to believe you were lying, we'd accept that you were truthful, then would follow an attempt to find out the mechanisms behind telepathy. this has been tried before to no avail.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896531 -

It wasn't me that removed your unprecious mushroom. That sort of thing has no interest to me.


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (09/20/02 11:44 PM)

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896535 -

Sorry, I forgot that "real" psychics cannot "operate" in the presence of skeptics.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896536 -

I never accused you. And i dont find it precious at all.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896537 -

Albino Jesus said:
if no third party can verify such beliefs, how can they be determined truths? they must be dismissed as mere beliefs.

You said you don't believe it [telepathy] in the first place. A test just shows to *affirm* your belief. Wouldn't it be more productive if you took an interest in investigating your belief [doesn't have to be on telepathy]? Try to find out for yourself besides just looking at a test.

Swami said:
I suppose those third-parties that wanted to verify the "cold-fusion" claims were pretty pathetic scientists....


*LOL Not at all. Proactiveness is what I'm referring to in regards to beliefs (ie: about telepathy). Are we going to sit back and be an armchair to our beliefs? What does that imply, both ways, between a skeptic and a believer? Trust and its alignment to spheres of trust.

That's my angle on the invested beliefs.

Edit: oops

Edited by Calen (09/20/02 11:37 PM)

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Calen]
    #896569 -

In reply to:
You said you don't believe it [telepathy] in the first place. A test just shows to *affirm* your belief. Wouldn't it be more productive if you took an interest in investigating your belief [doesn't have to be on telepathy]? Try to find out for yourself besides just looking at a test.





this post doesn't even make any sense. if a respectable scientist encountered someone who claimed to be psychic, and gave a shit enough to test them thoroughly and repeatedly, and found no evidence to the contrary, he would most likely then proceed to discover how this phenomenon works. if he found a mechanism, he'd write reports and papers for journals, perhaps even a book. it would be an amazing discovery. when such a scientist does this, and I have the opportunity to review his work, I'll be elated. until then, the psychics can keep begging me to believe them.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Calen]
    #896570 -

thanks to stupid forum errors, my last post was made in triplicate


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


Edited by Albino_Jesus (09/20/02 11:56 PM)

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason"
    #896575 -

*LOL Carry on then. You just defined trust.

edit: Not a problem

Edited by Calen (09/20/02 11:58 PM)

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Calen]
    #896588 -

I can trust reason.
if such scientist didn't give me reason to believe his findings were accurate, I wouldn't trust them.

"X is true because you should just believe me" doesn't fly with me.

"X is true, based on points/observations A, B, C, D, E, F, G and H, which are all clear, coherent, logical, consistent and based on a scientific method which works to eliminate errors" does.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896653 -

I can trust reason.
if such scientist didn't give me reason to believe his findings were accurate, I wouldn't trust them.

Your example of 'the' scientist is based on a third-party source. That's invested trust based on an implicit honor system external to your own. That's reasonable?

"X is true, based on points/observations A, B, C, D, E, F, G and H, which are all clear, coherent, logical, consistent and based on a scientific method which works to eliminate errors" does.

But you're not there to actually see the process of that great scientist testing the purported psychic medium. You can trust [scientific] reason ~ but can you tell, from reading the prestigious science journal, if that scientist, who's test debunked psychics, is personally 'biased' or not?

Edited by Calen (09/21/02 12:47 AM)

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Calen]
    #896661 -

More tired old ground, but you are a newbie...

But you're not there to actually see the process of that great scientist testing the purported psychic medium. You can trust [scientific] reason ~ but can you tell, from reading the prestigious science journal, if that scientist, who's test debunked psychics, is personally 'biased' or not?

Why would you possibly assume that ALL scientist are biased against metaphysics?

There is no worldwide conspiracy to suppress psychic powers. If there was any substance, it would be revealed. Read up. Even the best that scientists biased IN FAVOR of psychic powers can come up with is something like 0.001% of an effect which can be explained in many ways. Hardly convincing at all.



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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (09/21/02 01:07 AM)

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Calen]
    #896665 -

In reply to:
But you're not there to actually see the process of that great scientist testing the purported psychic medium. You can trust [scientific] reason ~ but can you tell, from reading the prestigious science journal, if that scientist, who's test debunked psychics, is personally 'biased' or not?



I'm not even fucking talking about "debunking" psychics. I'm talking about finding a mechanism for telepathy. no one has yet, and many have tried.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896685 -

More tired old ground, but you are a newbie...

Who? :wink:

Why would you possible assume that ALL scientist are biased against metaphysics?

I never did. I asked a question based on an angle of reasonable doubt vs trust.

There is no worldwide conspiracy to suppress psychic powers. If there was any substance, it would be revealed. Read up. Even the best that scientists biased IN FAVOR of psychic powers can come up with is something like 0.001% of an effect which can be explained in many ways. Hardly convincing at all.


Where did I say it was?  I'm not concern with 'the' scientitsts who are proponents are not.  That is not the focus at all.  I've clarified it some posts ago.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896687 -

I got this song stuck in my head for some reason...

"Tag Team back again
check and direct and let's begin
Party on party people let me hear some noise
DC's in the house jump jump rejoice
There's a party over here
a party over there
Wave your hands in the air
Shake your deriere
These three words when you're gettin' busy
Whoomp there it is"

(Sorry for straying... proceed with the kabobbing...)


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Sclorch]
    #896698 -

*applauds sclorch for some much needed comic relief*

in the 3rd grade, my negro bus driver played that song every day on the ride home  :cool:


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896701 -

"Debunk" does have a negative connotation, but to skeptics, I've seen - it's described as such all the time and use it to back up their 'own beliefs on such subjects based on the uh 'studies'.

Anyways, if I wanted to know if psychics are real, I find out for myself. That's motto. Not even test that say otherwise is going to deter me.

I'm not going to place my trust on somebody's else's 'acceptable' methods of investigation.


BTW - this forum is whacking out it seems

I'm out like a lightbulb

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Calen]
    #896704 -

You said you don't believe it [telepathy] in the first place. A test just shows to *affirm* your belief. Wouldn't it be more productive if you took an interest in investigating your belief [doesn't have to be on telepathy]? Try to find out for yourself besides just looking at a test.

Huh? How does one investigate one's belief without testing it? So instead of testing a claimed psychic's ability which would get to the heart of the matter, instead I should scratch my head and ponder, "Hmm, why do I not believe in far-fetched unproven ideas?" Yes, that is VERY productive. All science should operate that way.

How to possibly make this any clearer. Skeptics don't believe because they haven't witnessed it. The way for them to believe is to witness it. I know this is too straight-forward and uncomplicated.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Sclorch]
    #896706 -

WooT! Time for a phatty!

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896708 -

How to possibly make this any clearer. Skeptics don't believe because they haven't witnessed it. The way for them to believe is to witness it. I know this is too straight-forward and uncomplicated

You lost me here.


:laugh:hehehehehheehhee (I couldn't hold that one in) 


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Calen]
    #896711 -

You read my mind. Now I believe!


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896716 -

Whoa.. that post was for Ablino Jesus. I clearly stated who I was responding to.

Sorry for the mixup.

alright.. I"M OUT or else I'll never leave!

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Calen]
    #896720 -

Quote:
Anyways, if I wanted to know if psychics are real, I find out for myself. 



like all the others who "found out" for themselves but the "psychic" later admitted to clever fraud?
"psychicness" is a business, it's taught from generation to generation, psychics have apprentices and teach them how to swindle people out of their money, not by reading minds, but by insight into human nature and appealing to human emotions.
this is why no "real" psychics have been proven.
it's like magic. years ago some people(other than young children) would believe magicians were really making things disappear. now we know it's just illusion and anyone with their head on straight realizes this. psychics appeal too much to people's emotions and desire for the amazing and spiritual for wide-range skepticism to develop. but hey, maybe that disappearing dove  I saw when I was 8 years old wasn't a trick after all  :shocked:


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896724 -

Shit! Next thing you are going to be telling me is that shows like "The Other Side" are fake...


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #897086 -

I KNOW that if i proved myself a psychic medium, i would have scientific people like you always trying to run tests on me to make sure i wasnt a "fluke".

I agree. Edgar Cayce had the same problems when he first revealed himself to the world. Countless numbers of skeptics bothered him to try and "prove" his abilities until at last he promised himself that he would no longer try to prove himself to anyone else, becaues he had already proved it to himself.
And that's all that matters, baby.  :laugh:


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #897090 -

In reply to:
Edgar Cayce




ahahaahahHAAHahh*inadvertent snort*hahaahaahsahahhahhahdhggtfrwifihvb

oh. oops.
excuse me.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #897426 -

Quote:
my negro bus driver 



negro?  :crazy:  I am 98% sure that you are caucasian, now. I would have gotten the same message if you just said "bus driver" 


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #897463 -

Swami to tell you the truth, i think life would be a alot more boring without imagination and fantasy. truth changes according to conditions, therefore truth does not exsist in fact, there is almost always two sides to a truth depending once again on perception. If i was to say i would like to reason with you over something, the medium that we are reasoning on itself is almost always made up, everything is made up, truth itself is made up as we evolve as a society.


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" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "



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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #897570 -

Swami to tell you the truth, i think life would be a alot more boring without imagination and fantasy.
(Gawd, I love tangents!) Hoax, fraud, and misperception are not about the use of imagination.

truth changes according to conditions, therefore truth does not exsist in fact, there is almost always two sides to a truth depending once again on perception.
So all lies are truth? Deceipt is honesty? Misperception is clarity? Violence is love disguised?



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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (09/21/02 09:28 PM)

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #897586 -

In reply to:
negro?



well, I am from the south, after all. I'm supposed to use archaic/demeaning references to race. ho ho.

but I'm some kind of european/asian mutt, if you must know


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #897587 -

There is an incredible amount of vagueness and total inaccuracy in Cayce's readings on the End of the World, the resurfacing of Atlantis, and his medical diagnosis. No wonder he could not satisfy any skeptics.

becaues he had already proved it to himself. And that's all that matters, baby.

The Son of Sam heard God's voice telling him to "Kill! Kill! Kill!" He knew in his heart that it was the directive of the Divine. And that's all that matters, baby.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #897894 -

or if you know you experinced something and the skeptic has not experienced such, how DO you prove it. Does it mean your reality during that experience was false. i think not. Often, the skeptics will label a person who has had experiences that cant be proven as "crazy", schizophrenic, manic-depressive. Human made terms to describe individuals who have certain experiences.

Athought.....since we only use about 20% of our brain, is the brain more of a filter or regulator of stimuli? As we grow, if our brain were to respond to all stimuli that the body is presented to at once, the human would be unable to function in an orderly fashion. So possibly the brain learns to repress all stimuli it knows it does not need to respond to. Watch a baby/young child and watch his/her expressions as it engages the stimuli of the world.

What if the brain has evolved in such fashion that for 98% of the masses it filters stimuli in a certain way. We as humans may have other "senses" repressed, possibly there are more than just touch, sight, hearing, taste and smell. Additionally, as is experienced when, or at least i am told, when serotonin agonists are present is the possible deregulatory effect of cerain synapses. What if those 5 senses are enhmanced? many of you would agree that, from what I am told, that one's visual acuity is greatly enhanced.

What if the other 2% of the population has not as much regulation or filtering by their brain. Could they experience things that the other 98% dont. Seems reasonable. Some of those that are labled "crazy" may actually be "gifted".

An experiment, hmmmm, i would guess many here already have preformed this experiment with a certain vegetable.

I have read that DMT found indigenously in the pineal gland comes from a derivative found in teh sassafras root. it is also found in the ayahuasca(sp?) plant and made orally ingestable by a MAO inhibitor which is found naturally in syrian rue.

Why does the body have a gland, the pineal gland which isnt even made of brain tissue which ascends from teh soft palate and is found in the middle of the brain very close to auditory and visual nerve colliculi?

Why does the body breakdown DMT as fast as it is produced. It is suggested that with an overload of other neurotransmitters, dopamine, norepinephrine ect, that it may be possible to slow the breakdown of endogenous DMT. Could this molecule and conditions which cause its enhancement create near-death, mystical and alien experiences. this is a common theme reported by those who were administered IV DMT in new mexico, i have read.

So, possibly, in the 2% of the population, the 2% is a made up number, that are labled crazy, maybe their brains down filter or regulate as the other 98% or maybe they are born with levels of DMT that are higher or the lack of the enzyme which breaks it down as fast as it is made.

There are two times in teh souls existence when DMT levels are the highest
49 days after conception and 49 days after death.

Some eastern religious rituals do not bury their dead immediately. Rinpoche, the tibetan book of living and dying suggests that these altered levels of consciousness occur in deep meditation and it may be that the meditative state induces altered DMt levels.

Some of these eastern religious rituals are consistent with the belief that they are allowing the soul to live its vehicle and they believe that it doesnt leave with the apaprent bodily death. Could the soul be realted to DMT in some fashion? very interesting thought. The DMT thoughts are not my own , i take no credit for this proposition , it has already been written. i have simply tried to offer some integration amongst various disciplines.

peace

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #897914 -

Ok, my browser was possessed, as usual, last night. I've backtracked and I will answer whatever I missed.


Swami said:
Huh? How does one investigate one's belief without testing it? So instead of testing a claimed psychic's ability which would get to the heart of the matter, instead I should scratch my head and ponder, "Hmm, why do I not believe in far-fetched unproven ideas?" Yes, that is VERY productive. All science should operate that way.

My statement to AJ was not to go "scratch."  Finding out (!= pondering) means go talk to the mediums if you have the interest to 'investigate' instead of armchairing beliefs and the alignment of trust. Of course, it's going to take a wad of cash to do it in the uh "Name of Science." :laugh:

How to possibly make this any clearer. Skeptics don't believe because they haven't witnessed it. The way for them to believe is to witness it. I know this is too straight-forward and uncomplicated.

Ok, daddy.  No need to be patronizing..

You read my mind. Now I believe!

Huh?  Were you a *psychic* when you said I was a "newbie" too?


Albino Jesus said:
like all the others who "found out" for themselves but the "psychic" later admitted to clever fraud?
"psychicness" is a business, it's taught from generation to generation, psychics have apprentices and teach them how to swindle people out of their money, not by reading minds, but by insight into human nature and appealing to human emotions.

Colors of bias, aye?  How well you know the business and the psychology behind the profiteering of *all* kinds of psychism.  You must be psychic, indeed? Or do you know it first-hand?

this is why no "real" psychics have been proven.
it's like magic. years ago some people(other than young children) would believe magicians were really making things disappear. now we know it's just illusion and anyone with their head on straight realizes this. psychics appeal too much to people's emotions and desire for the amazing and spiritual for wide-range skepticism to develop. but hey, maybe that disappearing dove I saw when I was 8 years old wasn't a trick after all
 
Errm.  What did I just say about the negative connotations of "debunk"?  Where are your first-hand experiences besides spouting the usual skeptic rhetoric of "it hasn't be proven"?

Even if there was a study validating the abilities of psychics, would it help the average people discern the difference between the fakes and the real ones?  A study can just be easily overturned by another independent one.  Then it's back to square one because in *this* arena there hasn't been strong leads  and funded public interest in developing methodology and research to date.


Speaking of studies, the reason I reframe your "a respectable scientist" if-statement was to do the "twist-your-arm" effect on the counter-balancing of your trust:

I believe that anyone who pushes telepathy as a reality is either lying to themselves or lying to everyone else.
if a real psychic ever existed, don't you think he/she'd have gotten loads of publicity and proved it? why are they all confined to $3 per minute 900-numbers and cheesy little shops in the crap part of town?


Got an image of those psychic networks' prolific hay-days on late-night TV and how every Joe Smoe watching it would think all psychics are 'bogus'.  A tint of *bias* in what you said.

An axiom of doubt. Sphere of mistrust.

then you switched it around:
if a respectable scientist encountered someone who claimed to be psychic, and gave a shit enough to test them thoroughly and repeatedly, and found no evidence to the contrary, he would most likely then proceed to discover how this phenomenon works. if he found a mechanism, he'd write reports and papers for journals, perhaps even a book. it would be an amazing discovery. when such a scientist does this, and I have the opportunity to review his work, I'll be elated. until then


An axiom of inquiry, but not procured by you.  Sphere of trusting a familiar honor system.

So I combined the two axioms together, to see what I receive in return.  Viola! The question wasn't directly answered,  but lie in those two paragraphs near the top.

So my dear (may I call you dear? :laugh:), which axiom do you truly profess to? Former or latter?
 

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: llib]
    #897925 -

[bWhy does the body breakdown DMT as fast as it is produced. It is suggested that with an overload of other neurotransmitters, dopamine, norepinephrine ect, that it may be possible to slow the breakdown of endogenous DMT. Could this molecule and conditions which cause its enhancement create near-death, mystical and alien experiences. this is a common theme reported by those who were administered IV DMT in new mexico, i have read.


I vaguely remember reading those articles. I lost the link when my comp got reformatted. Some of the descriptions of the trips were freaking ethereal.. Seeing spirits.. Auras.. People looking like angels. I hope it pays dividents when they use themselves as guinea pigs because these experimenters are putting their health at risk using IV.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Calen]
    #897932 -

bias is present after TRYING to find evidence of real psychic abilities with no positive results.
bias is present after loads of research because I WANTED it to be real, but I haven't found it to be.
bias is present after realizing that only people who are not by nature skeptical actually believe that psychic abilities exist. i.e. they not only want to believe but are willing to believe without real evidence.
this bias is not based on emotion, but on reason. unlike psychics' fanatics.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Calen]
    #897952 -

In reply to:
Sphere of trusting a familiar honor system




lmfao
an honor system
you obviously aren't very interested in science, or the scientifiic method. faulty science is noticed quickly because reason will dictate that the results don't make sense or are inconclusive. respectable scientists and even lay-people will criticise the results. this is why people like Michael Behe aren't getting anywhere in their "scientific" careers and are pretty much laughed at.

if ONE psychic could reliably read minds or predict the future, he/she would have caught someone's attention by now.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #897954 -

post for general board, in response to biased scientists

I am a scientist and have applied scientific methodology often in reasearch. The base of "proving" something really doeasnt exist in science. Let me expound to conclude a cause, scientist, for whatever reason have adopted statisitical approaches for apllying the conclusions that they have "proved" something.

Further, the way they would test something is the following, I believe that adding this medicine will increase blood pressure.
So they propose teh hypothesis, called the null hypothesis which is actually the opposite statement.......there is no difference in subjects blood pressure who take this medicine and those who do not take this medicine. Then they measure the values then they take the averages and look at the standard deviations and then they apply a statistical test depending upon whether one is examining nominal or interval data. then they check and make sure that the variance between the means is not very different between the groups and then they apply the statistical test.

Following they present confidence intervals meaning, the change that is seen is...... seen and this is the important part about the scientific methodology!!!!!!!!! or occurs by chance 5-10-15% of the time. For some reason scientist are comfortable in saying that if something occurs 5% of the time by chance then they have "proven" something. They really havent. traditionally, they accept a 5% chance of occuring by chnace as something that is statistically significantly different. this is called the "p" value which is set at .05, meaning a 5% of the time chnace of teh difference being found by accident.

You may ask, why didnt they choose 1% or 10% or 20% or .01% if they are trying to prove something , the "p" value for teh above percentages would be p=.01, p=.1, p=.2 and p=.001. i dont know.

so most tests that are performed draw a conclusion if there is a difference. If there is no difference then it was not "proven". But even when there is a difference, they still only speak in terms of probabilities, not having "proven" anything.

As humans, i doubt we will be able to ever "prove" anything except the simple fact that we cant explain.

From here , allow me to digress. Science is quickly merging with eastern philosophy. Hawking's and other's have been trying to mesh the differences between newtonian mechanices, mathematical equations used to explain observed phenomenom in the "macro" world. Quantum mechanic scientist have been wrestling with the theory of relativity and Bohr's phenomenom. seemingly, when i read about these principles and the latest thought, it seems simply put that more symbols are being created to explain things in the "micro" world. Quantum mechanics deals with explaining mass, location and velocity in the "micro" world. The quantum mechanists can only speak in terms of probabilties.

So we scientists find ourselves meshing with eastern philosophic thought. So from the "dancing Wu li masters",
q: So what is it that makes events(micro world, subatomic particles) at that level?
A:who are the dancers and who teh dance? they have no attributes other than the dance.
Q: What is 'they"?
A: the things that dance, the dancers. My God! we're back to the titl eof the book.

Closing line sfrom above title.

so how can one "prove" anything? how can one kno wthe "truth"?

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #897961 -

also, I never indicated that just because a scientist actually DID research and write about psychics and claim they're legit, that I would automatically believe him/her without proof. I believe proof, not scientists. some scientists only wish they were. I'd be critical of the claims, as I am with everything else.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #898452 -

bias is present after TRYING to find evidence of real psychic abilities with no positive results.
bias is present after loads of research because I WANTED it to be real, but I haven't found it to be.
bias is present after realizing that only people who are not by nature skeptical actually believe that psychic abilities exist. i.e. they not only want to believe but are willing to believe without real evidence.
this bias is not based on emotion, but on reason. unlike psychics' fanatics.


I understand you have an investment in beliefs. Those particular colorful statements you made, previously, are slanted with bias. The colors of prejuidice are not the even-ness of reason.

Who tried? What evidence have you produced for yourself? None so far. You researched? No. I never asked you to believe without evidence. I asked about your proactive approach verses a mere, what, intellectual approach by sitting from a chair.

Realize? So people who express and explore the 'possibility' without the due process of proof makes it.....reasonable to assume bias. ahahah. Nevermind.


lmfao
an honor system
you obviously aren't very interested in science, or the scientifiic method. faulty science is noticed quickly because reason will dictate that the results don't make sense or are inconclusive. respectable scientists and even lay-people will criticise the results. this is why people like Michael Behe aren't getting anywhere in their "scientific" careers and are pretty much laughed at.

if ONE psychic could reliably read minds or predict the future, he/she would have caught someone's attention by now.

The presumption on your part is vaporous. And yes, I stand by it: honor system. A fundamental level between the cooperation of humans to advance civilization.

An idealist will pay the price when she/he does not know the limits presented by the environment (like Michael) he/she is working in.

And Thank you for your serving, Miss Attitude.

Dinner is over.

Edited by Calen (09/21/02 09:28 PM)

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: llib]
    #898466 -

Athought.....since we only use about 20% of our brain

Enough already. Where do you come up with this shit? You heard it somewhere and you take it as gospel? This is a TOTAL falsehood.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Calen]
    #898471 -

Huh? Were you a *psychic* when you said I was a "newbie" too?

Get a grip, Calen. "Newbie" is part of your VISIBLE self-description.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Calen]
    #898481 -

Even if there was a study validating the abilities of psychics...

But there aren't, so the term "skeptical rhetoric" doesn't apply.



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: llib]
    #898493 -

or if you know you experinced something and the skeptic has not experienced such, how DO you prove it.

(I am intuiting that this is actually a question.) This is another glaring fallacy. True skeptics only care about experiences that are claimed to be REPEATABLE, not someone's inner state or random experience.

All of my challenges have come after definitive statements such as "I can move a pencil with my mind." or "The Twelfth Planet will arrive in August 2003."



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: llib]
    #898501 -

so how can one "prove" anything? how can one kno wthe "truth"?

A loaded question. :wink: Exploration is the hallmark of a human.  You may not know all the answers, proofs, or truths. But someone will in a couple of decades, centuries, aeons.  You set the groundwork for the next generations to come.

I wouldn't mind having 3-4 lifetimes in this life to explore all facets of science I'm interested.  And mysticism.

But who has that time to do it all and know truth? ;P

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: llib]
    #898514 -

The base of "proving" something really doeasnt exist in science.

So my computer doesn't work because electron flow is an unproven theory and my car doesn't run because the theory of thermodynamics is b.s...?

Your example about medicine is off the mark because there are far more uncontrolled or unknown variables there than in almost any other scientific research.

Psychic phenomenon is not accepted by rationalists, not because of clever wording and hyperbole from believers, but because IT CANNOT BE DEMONSTRATED!

I know this is a tough statement to grasp.



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #898592 -

In reply to:
well, I am from the south, after all. I'm supposed to use archaic/demeaning references to race



thats it...justify your ignorance.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #898596 -

In reply to:
Enough already. Where do you come up with this shit? You heard it somewhere and you take it as gospel? This is a TOTAL falsehood.




Indulge me Swami. what EXACT percentage of the brain does the average human being use?


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #898625 -

100%. How many cyclinders does your car use? All of them, but not all at the same time.

Are you indulged now?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #898969 -

In reply to:
thats it...justify your ignorance.



Good job being too dense to understand sarcasm.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Calen]
    #898974 -

calen, some of your statements don't even make sense and fail to refute in any way the points I and others have made, so, seeya.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #899022 -

In reply to:
Good job being too dense to understand sarcasm.



I understood your sarcasm. I just believe there is some truth behind your facetiousness. Dense? maybe, but not in this instance.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #899031 -

In reply to:
I understood your sarcasm. I just believe there is some truth behind your facetiousness. Dense? maybe, but not in this instance



then how do you justify calling me "ignorant" because of a quite blatant joke?


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #899036 -

hmm, never heard that before, please tell me where you got this info from, im very intrigued.


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #899055 -

it was a combination of calling your bus driver "negro" (not a joke), and your blantant joke. Sorry if ive offended you. This is just my perception. I will argue this no more.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: CleverName]
    #899066 -

Where do I get this from? Very simple. EVERY SINGLE NEURON in your brains fires some of the time, hence you use all of your brain. Does anyone really think that 90% of our neurons are duds that just sputter? Does that make any sense at all?

I have printed this here at least a dozen times. It is impossible for all your neurons to fire at once (hence the popular myth) just like it is impossible for your bicep and tricep to contract at the same time. But this does not mean that you only use 50% of your arm.



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #899070 -

yes, i undestood what you meant from the start, i was just wondering where you came up with this info.
my dr told me the other way though, thats why i was wondering, oh wise one, about your information, which seems to be nothing more than self-learned, sorry, im sticking to the professionals on this one


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #899077 -

It is impossible for all your neurons to fire at once

How can you be 100% sure of that? Who is to say that we might not evolve to be able to use most parts of our brains simultaneously??


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #899083 -

Quote:
How can you be 100% sure of that? Who is to say that we might not evolve to be able to use most parts of our brains simultaneously?? 



when all your neurons are firing at once I believe  that would be considered an epileptic seizure  :smirk:


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #899089 -

Because I am the Swami.

A huge number of neurons firing is called a seizure. Why do so many have trouble with basic science? What would happen if all cylinders in your car fired at once? It would throw a rod or break the crank. If all transistors in your computer fired at once NO INFORMATION would be passed.

It is in the nature of the design for some things to work SEQUENTIALLY. Try talking to someone speaking every single word that you know simultaneously (if it were possible). Information transfer would be ZERO.

MRIs have show that every area of the brain is used. PERIOD. There are no mysterious latent sections.

Is our education system failing that badly?



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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (09/22/02 10:51 AM)

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #899092 -

ha, yes in fact it is


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #899095 -

Quote:
Is our education system failing that badly?



yep  :frown:


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #899264 -

Try talking to someone speaking every single word that you know simultaneously (if it were possible).

I have. I transcended the use of words to express my thought, all thought was shared between myself and another person, it was a pure awareness shared between both of us.

No, I can't prove that to you.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #899284 -

Of course not. That is the beauty of all mystical powers. They "work" but cannot be shown to "work".


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #899434 -

They can be experienced.

Think of it as lightning. We obviously know lightning exists. Everyone has heard of it, or atleast seen it. But lightning never strikes in the same place twice (it is a rare occurance otherwise). And forgive my ignorance, but i dont think anyone can re-create actual lightning.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #899462 -

In reply to:
That is the beauty of all mystical powers. They "work" but cannot be shown to "work".



Just because an experience happens spontaneously and cannot be shown on demand, doesn't mean that this experience is false.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #899464 -

In reply to:
Think of it as lightning. We obviously know lightning exists. Everyone has heard of it, or atleast seen it. But lightning never strikes in the same place twice (it is a rare occurance otherwise). And forgive my ignorance, but i dont think anyone can re-create actual lightning.



the difference between lightning and "supernatural" happenings being that indeed almost everyone can and has witnessed lightning at some point or another, and we can attract lightning and measure its force and study it. objectively


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #899661 -

An experience is not a mystical power.

Why are shows like "Crossing Over" believed by so many when the host is so phony and cannot stand up to scrutiny?

Maybe because people want SO BADLY to believe in life after death (or other unprovens) that they will overlook his obvious flaws and discrepancies. This is the type of crap that I am so Adamant about.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #899703 -

In reply to:
Why are shows like "Crossing Over" believed by so many when the host is so phony and cannot stand up to scrutiny?

I don't know whether John Edwards is "real" or not; I've only watched his show a few times... But I did see him on Larry King Live about a week ago, he was taking calls from viewers and "connecting" with them over the phone. Maybe the callers were set up beforehand, but every caller I saw said that he was accurate...

So what kind of "scrutiny" are you talking about? Why don't you call him or go to one of his shows and find out for yourself if he can do what he claims? What "evidence" are you judging him on?


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #899708 -

I called miss cleo about a year ago and she sucked major bum.
but I played along with her.
apparently she's not psychic enough to detect sarcasm. aw.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #899735 -

Are you implying that because of one experience with a fraudulent psychic, you disregard all self-proclaimed "psychics" as being false?

Maybe you would go on TV and try and make as much money as you could off of an ability such as psychism, but some of us, such as I, would rather hide these abilities from the general public, instead revealing them to only trusted friends.

I'm not telling you that you should believe in "psychism", but I don't think you should close yourself off to the possibility that there may be people with psychic abilities out there.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #899890 -

In reply to:
Are you implying that because of one experience with a fraudulent psychic, you disregard all self-proclaimed "psychics" as being false?



did I say that?
please read the rest of my posts in this thread.
thank you.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #900577 -

i would repsectfully diagree, the "theory" of thermodynamics, has been proven, this is simply that th eypothesis of some entity has been shown to be repeatable in teh amcro world. Please do some reasearch of quantum mechnaics, the theory of relativity and bhor's principle. If light a wave or a particle.

it is both! scientist have performe dexperiments that show it is a particle and they have shown that it is a wave. read einstein,, bohr and hawkings rather than espousing rubbish.

does a ball dropped on a moving train have horizontal velocity? it is a realtiev question is it directed at the person who droppe dthe ball on the train or is it relative to someone watching from a hillside ?

Believe me i ahd similar thought slike you until i experienced a very 'mystical" experience, that i care not shar ewith you at this time as you seem to be one who labels people as verbalizing bullshit, if you yourself have not experienced it.

i belive that you , whil ebeing a skeptic, do believe, but have not had this experiences,; I do belive that you would like to experience these things.

My suggestion, take a trip to teh amazon a serach out ayachuasa and syrian rue

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #900581 -

wrong again swami, read about "pet" scans and Spect" scans and these scans can determine hom emuch neuronal activity is being 'fired up' at anyone one time. even EEg can suggest this phenomenom

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #900584 -

another bullshit statement, your biceps and triceps fire atthe same time very frequently, how else could you hold an object away from your body with your arm half supinated and half pronated

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #900596 -

and finally, there have been numerous traumatic reports of people who have had bullets, or other objects that have entered the brain and the person has lost no function what so ever, no motor loss, no parasympathetic or sympathetic loss nor emotional or sexual dysnfunction. so if that brain was integral to your cylinder theory then it would suggest that th eperson would have lost the ability to perform some function because of the los sof brain tissue.

terrence mckenna draws an analogy to a hologram, the brain is like a holgram especially with respect to memory. you can knock out some brain tissue and the brain can still mainatin memory.

and by the way an MRi has nothing what so every to do with the baility to show whether a portion of a brain is functioning, my example of a spect or pet scan has shown taht the brain does not utilize all of its capacity.

find out who you are talking to rather than speaking from rhetoric, dear

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #900600 -

there are many different types of seizures, all seizure do not effect all parts of the brain, grand mal, petit mal, absence, some effect motor function from teh cortex , some effect emotion, and place people into a type of memory loss bu they are still able to move. kinda like sleep walking

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #900604 -

lightning hunters can set up conditions to cause lightning to strike in a particular place

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: llib]
    #900611 -

thank you for your knowledge. i have never even heard of lightning hunters.

much appreciated.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: llib]
    #900620 -

why are you refuting points no one has made?
please try to understand what people are saying before you agree with them :smile:

also, please give an example of a region of the brain which is never used for anything.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: llib]
    #900621 -

an din clonclusion, i will say that i ahve had 20 year sof scientific endeavors including taking evry portion of thebody apart, legally:), including every component of the brain. I should be the skeptic and I am not. This is base dupon an experience that i have had . thes etypes of experiences are becoming more frequent. ino I ca not explain them. but my friends who were around em at teh time have obsrved the results of some premonitions that i have. i am not a psychic nor profess to be one. but certain energy fields do allow for a convincing probability that something is going to happen.

I 'felt" last tuesday that isidore which was a 80 mile any hour hurricane near jaimaca woul dturn out to be one of the most major hurricanes to hit the gulf of mexico. I an tell you where it wil hit but i gravely disturbed about galveston and new orleans, yet i live on the west coast of florida.

I could be wrong but watch as the storm heads north

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: llib]
    #900625 -

also - are you dyslexic or just dumb? :smile:


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #900639 -

hes seems knowledgable and intelligent to me. maybe his fingers are too fat, and mash keys that dont need to be mashed. Im just kidding.  :grin: 


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #900640 -

im a poker typer

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #901379 -

you are being absurd. truth is death.


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All refrences to and statements concerning mushrooms, mushroom cultivation, and mushroom related paraphrenalia refer specifically to the cultivation of legal species.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #902617 -

calen, some of your statements don't even make sense and fail to refute in any way the points I and others have made, so, seeya.

Giving me that story, huh?

there was no intent to refute whatever you thought I was trying to do. I asked direct questions. All of which you so nicely diverted away from: your claims of objectiveness and the value of trust.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #903170 -

In reply to:
But lightning never strikes in the same place twice (it is a rare occurance otherwise).


LOL, ever heard of an object called a 'lightning rod?' What purpose do you think it serves?

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: llib]
    #903186 -

In reply to:
your biceps and triceps fire atthe same time very frequently, how else could you hold an object away from your body with your arm half supinated and half pronated


If all the muscle fibers (in the biceps and triceps) contracted fully and at once, there is a very good chance you would tear one or both muscles. The feat which you cite as an example has to do with controlled contraction of a portion of the muscle fibers. You may have taken body parts apart, but no one in his right mind would trust you to put them back together.

Edited by Evolving (09/23/02 10:46 PM)

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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