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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: Icelander]
    #11615289 -

Icelander said:
and unrealistic examples to attempt to refute this,

You have yet to show how my example was unrealistic, in fact I think you acknowledged the possibility of it?


To be in any way 'realistic' it has to relate to some fact of reality that you can at least provide some speck of proof for. The human imagination can come up with limitless 'possibilities', but as I said earlier, reality is the testing ground of the real and the true.

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11615328 -

I once had an experience with a friend on a very high dose of psychedelics. He was totally convinced that he was in another place from where we were at the time. He logically accessed his whereabouts and decided I was lying to him.

This might be documented in may emergency psychotic conditions. In fact there is a movie based on a true story about a great mathematician who believed that there was secret code from enemies of our country in magazines and newspapers and he had been commissioned by our govt to crack this code. He was convinced of his rational thought process for quite some time. It basically ruined his life and career. This was a famous case of someone hallucinating a reality that did not exist.

A Beautiful Mind--From the heights of notoriety to the depths of depravity, John Forbes Nash, Jr. experiences it all. A mathematical genius, he made an astonishing discovery early in his career and stood on the brink of international acclaim. But the handsome and arrogant Nash soon found himself on a painful and harrowing journey of self-discovery once he was diagnosed with schizophrenia. After many years of struggle, he eventually triumphed over this tragedy, and finally, late in life, received the Nobel Prize.




--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: Icelander]
    #11615342 -

I'm not sure what your point is. Philosophically speaking a psychotic 'break' is when ones abstractions are no longer relating to concretes. I do think that psychedelics can emulate that state in some ways, but I still don't see your point.

People can be highly delusional, so what?

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11615357 -

So when in that delusional state they don't know they are being illogical. They are convinced of their ability to logically evaluate reality. They can't it seems. This condition is possible for anyone. Even you.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=John+Forbes+Nash+Jr.&fr=ush-movies&ygmasrchbtn=Web+Search&pvid=7at7YUoGkulkfR9iSj7aPxBjQvFfV0sfwSIABZ_P


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (12/09/09 08:26 AM)

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: Icelander]
    #11615368 -

Icelander said:
So when in that delusional state they don't know they are being illogical. They are convinced of their ability to logically evaluate reality. They can't it seems. This condition is possible for anyone. Even you.


Sure, but I don't take high doses of psychedelics nor do I have any mental health issues. :shrug:

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11615374 -

As far as you know you don't. Neither did Nash and he was a brilliant scientist. But hey guess what?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: Icelander]
    #11615413 -

Its quite intellectually bankrupt to reduce a philisophical discussion to an example of a rare and extreme form of psychological disorder.

This is a discussion on philosophy not psychology.

As I said previously, if you want to keep throwing up absurd examples to try and  claim that knowledge and certainty don't exist, start your own thread.

Edited by RationalEgo (12/09/09 08:49 AM)

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11615429 -

RationalEgo, can you please state which propositions you feel are certain with no chance whatsoever of being false?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11615458 -

RationalEgo said:
Its quite intellectually bankrupt to reduce a philisophical discussion to an example of a rare and extreme form of psychological disorder.

This is a discussion on philosophy not psychology.

As I said previously, if you want to keep throwing up absurd examples to claim that knowledge and certainty don't exist, start your own thread.


---------------------------------------

"Are you sure you cannot be certain?"

"Is it true that things cannot be known"?



I addressed this from your OP. You did not state there that human psychology would not be  included. (although I don't know how it couldn't be)

And also this disorder is not so rare it seems. There can be other causes also of a break from so called reality were someone would not be sure of that reality.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: Icelander]
    #11615479 -

I put it to you Sir, Did Nash discover that he was ill and mistaken and seek treatment? Why would he do that if he could never be sure what reality was? Surely his attempt to cure himself meant that he understood that he was delusional and wanted to repair the connection of his mind with reality.

As said before, your absurd example has very little to do with the philisophical arguments in the OP.

Do not confuse psychology with philosophy.

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11615487 -

:rofl2: Sure he did. That changes nothing at all. Not anything at all. Can you understand that?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: Icelander]
    #11615498 -

Icelander said:
:rofl2: Sure he did. That changes nothing at all. Not anything at all. Can you understand that?


So it changes nothing at all that he got treatment, repaired his minds connection with reality to some degree and went on to live a more fulfilled life as a result?

That changes nothing at all!?

I completely disagree.

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11615536 -

deCypher said:
RationalEgo, can you please state which propositions you feel are certain with no chance whatsoever of being false?


I'd like to know as well.


--------------------

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11615538 -

Wow! I feel like I'm in a fundy debate, honestly.

At a point in time he couldn't tell what was real. This lasted a very long time. So the point would still be that one cannot be absolutely sure they are being realistic about what is real. :tongue:

I also stated that I believe logic to be the best tool we have to attempt to determine truth. Can you hear that?:satansmoking:

Psychology cannot be divorced from Philosophy here as a healthy Philosophy would need to be based in a healthy Psychology.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: Icelander]
    #11615594 -

Icelander said:
Wow! I feel like I'm in a fundy debate, honestly.




These sly backhanded ad homenins are immature and unwarranted.

Quote:
At a point in time he couldn't tell what was real. This lasted a very long time. So the point would still be that one cannot be absolutely sure they are being realistic about what is real. :tongue:




No, your point is that he, being a delusional mentally ill person could not differentiate between his delusions and reality for a long period of time. This does not prove anything.

As I said, reality and ones ability to know and work with the facts is the standard here. A mentally ill person can 'get better' as a result of treatment that enables him to better grasp the 'facts' of reality and work with them to his optimal advantage.

Quote:
I also stated that I believe logic to be the best tool we have to attempt to determine truth. Can you hear that?:satansmoking:




Without there being reality and facts, what is your standard of truth? How can you integrate a concept of truth when you so fundamentally reject that there is an objective reality? The concepts of truth and proof 'presuppose' an objective reality from which to derive facts.

Quote:
Psychology cannot be divorced from Philosophy here as a healthy Philosophy would need to be based in a healthy Psychology.


Psychology is a special science. it is related to philosophy in that the means of investigating are predicated on philisophical assumptions about the mind and reality. I personally think that psychology is in its infancy stages. A 'healthy' science of psychology would have to be predicated on a rational philosophy, not the other way around.

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #11615601 -

shivas.wisdom said:
deCypher said:
RationalEgo, can you please state which propositions you feel are certain with no chance whatsoever of being false?


I'd like to know as well.


Lets stick to the self-evident certainties that are obvious for the purpose of this discussion:

Existence exists —Consciousness is conscious— A is A.

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11615612 -

Besides from analytic truths and tautologies, do you claim to know any other certainties?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: deCypher]
    #11615627 -

Did you not read my last post?

It seems many are having trouble even accepting the axioms on which further discussion relies.

(also, axioms are not analytic truth, they are 'self-evident' and the basis for which the concepts of 'truth' and proof' depend)

I still have not seen anyone who has attempted to refute the Objectivst axioms directly yet. A whole lot of beating around the bush has been going on though.

I invite anyone to try without contradicting themselves and proving the axioms in the process.

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11615639 -

Which axioms are those?  You can't get anywhere from a tautology.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Verifiable Truth and Proof Vs Post-Modern Nonsense [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11615642 -


Without there being reality and facts, what is your standard of truth? How can you integrate a concept of truth when you so fundamentally reject that there is an objective reality?

This is the only part of that post that imo is worth responding to.

I never rejected the idea of a objective reality. Never, not ever once. How did you use your amazing logic to deduce this?

What I have stated and continue to state is there may be times when we could not be able to tell what that objective reality is. Please get it right?

I have stated that there most likely is an objective reality out there and we do our best to logically deduce what that is. I've been saying this for a long time here. Just because I'm not sure we can always tell what that objective reality is doesn't mean I don't believe it exists.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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