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InvisiblethePatient
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"Sometimes truth defies reason"
    #896163 - 09/20/02 10:34 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

"...Sometimes truth defies reason."

This was quoted from a movie i saw earlier today. The movie was  Frailty. An interesting movie, in a whacked out, crazy sort of way. I posted this for those who live by reason, to think on.  :grin:   


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896236 - 09/20/02 11:16 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe we can't fully grasp "the truth", because we can't handle it.  :blush: 


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InvisiblethePatient
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #896250 - 09/20/02 11:21 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

the truth is... the truth is ugly.  :crazy: 


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896253 - 09/20/02 11:23 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I am not sure what I am supposed to think on.

Let's see, we are communicating in a highly complex way based on... ta da! - reason!

We have a War on Drugs based on.... lack of reason!

We have conquered many diseases because of... reason!

We have racism and sexism based on... lack of reason!

We landed on the moon because we used ... reason!

The Heaven's Gate (haven't used this in many months) suicides were based on... lack of reason.


Thank you for clearing that up.


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896260 - 09/20/02 11:27 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

if such "truths" defy reason, how is it to be determined in any sort of objective way that they are truths? how is it to be determined that any "unreasonable" truth isn't wrong and that some other unreasonable truth is true? we can't know ultimately that our feet are on the ground or that atoms exist or that anything other than ourselves exists at all, but that which reason dictates is the only thing useful in the existence that we apparently inhabit. anything else is just completely indeterminable speculation. not to say that it is a bad thing, but it's useless trying to push it as "truth"


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896265 - 09/20/02 11:31 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

You are going to have your hands full here, my brother. Good luck!


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InvisiblethePatient
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896266 - 09/20/02 11:31 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Reason is subjective to each individual. One individuals reason might differ from others. One idea might make logical sense to that individual, but others cant grasp it, or cant even begin to fathom it.


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896268 - 09/20/02 11:32 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

You are going to have your hands full here, my brother. Good luck! 




I am no one's  brother :wink:  :grin:

and what do you mean by that?


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896277 - 09/20/02 11:35 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

Reason is subjective to each individual. One individuals reason might differ from others. One idea might make logical sense to that individual, but others cant grasp it, or cant even begin to fathom it.




you are speaking of personal truths.
objective(in a loose sense, since it can't be determined that objective truth is in actuality objective, but it's objective as far as man can figure) truths can be seen and understood by anyone with a properly functioning brain and the proper information.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896292 - 09/20/02 11:42 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Brother as in "fellow skeptic/ rational thinker".

As one with some 3600 posts (I have no life), you will make very little progress with the close-minded ones here who claim to be open-minded.

Every manner of gibberish, from Atlantis to Crop Cirlces to Reptilians to telepathy, is revered as truth and ayone who questions those pet subjects is the subject to harsh judgement.

Most here seem to be looking for agreement rather than real examination of any core issues.

And that is why I wished you "luck".

Comprende? (If you don't now, you soon will!)


--------------------



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InvisiblethePatient
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896295 - 09/20/02 11:44 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

you are lost in a sea of logic, my friend.


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896300 - 09/20/02 11:45 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

well then, "sister" would  suffice :smile:

and lol

have you ever read "The Demon-Haunted World" by  Carl Sagan?
excellent book.
highly recommended.
I think you'd like it.
and I think everyone should read it, regardless.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896303 - 09/20/02 11:46 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

you are lost in a sea of logic, my friend.




as opposed to a sea of illogic, I'll take that as a compliment.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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InvisiblethePatient
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896315 - 09/20/02 11:51 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

You have mistaken me for someone else Swami. Dont think i do not know you. You seem very judgemental. I am very open-minded. I, too, am a logical thinker. I try and analyze all aspects of something. But if i were to lean to either side of Skeptic or Believer...i would lean slightly towards Believer. I come to this forum for interesting new ideas, angles, and aspects on life and philosophy. If anyone here were close-minded, the finger (i really dont like finger-pointing) would be pointed at yourself. I've been reading these boards for some time now, and posting for a shorter period... but i have never seen you budge from your skeptical role. You will never step across that line. It is almost as if you fear to leave your skeptical position. You are afraid to believe in anything. Especially, if a large group of people already believe in it.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896317 - 09/20/02 11:52 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Every manner of gibberish, from Atlantis to Crop Cirlces to Reptilians to telepathy, is revered as truth and ayone who questions those pet subjects is the subject to harsh judgement.

Um, I think you are exagerating just a little bit... I think we all can somewhat agree that these things need to be questioned.

What frustrates me is when people assume that just because you can't prove something in a laboratory, that automatically makes it false...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896319 - 09/20/02 11:54 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, I have. Sagan had his good points in captivating the masses imagination regarding science, but also had a huge ego with the inherent flaws that go with thinking you are a demi-god. Read Robert Anton Wilson's take on Sagan.

Sorry, I assumed you to be male for two reasons:

1. Your handle - now if you were Albino_Mary...

2. Very few women come here to debate, and particularly not as skeptics.



--------------------



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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896335 - 09/21/02 12:01 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

Yes, I have. Sagan had his good points in captivating the masses imagination regarding science, but also had a huge ego with the inherent flaws that go with thinking you are a demi-god. Read Robert Anton Wilson's take on Sagan.






yeah, the book is quite a big ironic-sarcasm-ego-trip but I think for the most part it's a great book


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #896339 - 09/21/02 12:02 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Um, I think you are exagerating just a little bit... I think we all can somewhat agree that these things need to be questioned.
Am I? The longest posts deal with fantasy. The most vehement personal attacks come when pointing out the flaws in someone's pet esoteric subject.

What frustrates me is when people assume that just because you can't prove something in a laboratory, that automatically makes it false...
This is highly erroneous. I have offered time and time again to prove/disprove some metaphsyical claim when people have clearly stated for the record that their favorite bit of magick could be done repeatedly. If something can be repeated on demand , it can be tested. (Doesn't require a laboratory and men in white coast with clipboards.)

Every single time the poster backed down or ignored my challenge, or took the challenge and failed miserably.

Because something cannot be tested does not make it false, but it certainly makes it suspect and open to close scrutiny.

Reason is NOT the enemy of truth.


--------------------



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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #896341 - 09/21/02 12:03 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

What frustrates me is when people assume that just because you can't prove something in a laboratory, that automatically makes it false...





I won't assert that such things are always false, but they can't be determined to be true, so I can't accept them as such


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896342 - 09/21/02 12:03 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Zakkly!


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