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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896350 -

i will agree. Reason is not the enemy of truth. But Reason can blind you from ever seeing the truth.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896357 -

But Reason can blind you from ever seeing the truth.

That is a fairly huge, blanket statement. Care to elucidate?



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896360 -

In reply to:
I won't assert that such things are always false, but they can't be determined to be true, so I can't accept them as such

Well what if you experienced something that couldn't be "proved" in a way such as Swami suggests... Would you accept them as true or would you deny them?

I see where your coming from Swami, but when things happen to me that can't be "proved", I certainly question my experience but I can't deny it.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #896368 -

In reply to:
Well what if you experienced something that couldn't be "proved" in a way such as Swami suggests... Would you accept them as true ?



no.

they may have been hallucinations. a lot of people here think they've "seen god" or "experienced" something else whilst ignoring the fact that they were - hello - on hallucinogenicc drugs. (!)
hallucinations can happen whilst sober as well. it cannot be determined if these experiences are hallucinations or real, and they are only a temporary existence, so why should they be considered truths or even useful when I inhabit a reality completely unlike?


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896370 -

In reply to:
That is a fairly huge, blanket statement. Care to elucidate?



When everyone believed the earth was flat, it was at the time, a logical and rational statment. People believed it was "reasonable".



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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896380 -

Okay well what about telepathy? What if it happened to you more than once, but you knew no way of forcing it to happen for the sake of proving it's existence to someone?

Also, you talk like hallucinations are more of an illusion than reality... IMO, "reality" could be just as much of an illusion. There are things at the microscopic level that make up what we perceive as real, but when percieved at the microscopic level, become very different. So what you think of as being real could very well be an illusion... not necessarily false, but not in it's true form.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896387 -

In reply to:
People believed it was "reasonable".




so? when science was nonexistent, it was all that could be determined. the earth looked flat to everyone, so what reason was there to believe that it was round?

now we have a wider perspective, and can take a step away from the earth(or even without stepping back) and see, through reason, that it is in fact round. these people couldn't prove the earth was flat, so even though it was "reasonable" in the sense that there was no evidence that it was anything other than flat, it still couldn't be said to be true. now it can.

if some people hold beliefs based on personal experiences or whatever, they can't show evidence to anyone else, and they can't even prove to themselves that it was real, so it may seem "reasonable" to them, but it is not in fact based on reason.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896392 -

Not sure why you bring this up as it was reason and logic that showed otherwise. It was ignorance that believed the earth was flat. (Your use of semantics does not apply).


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896395 -

In reply to:
now we have a wider perspective, and can take a step away from the earth(or even without stepping back) and see, through reason, that it is in fact round.

Ah, yes... but what if there was an even wider perspective?
You can't reasonably believe that there isn't, considering what we know about human evolution up to this point.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896398 -

In reply to:
if some people hold beliefs based on personal experiences or whatever... and they can't even prove to themselves that it was real



The love i feel for certain people is very much real. As real as you and I. But i cant prove this love to you, because you are not me. You are not experiencing this experience i am having.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #896402 -

Okay well what about telepathy? What if it happened to you more than once, but you knew no way of forcing it to happen for the sake of proving it's existence to someone?

*sigh* As usual, we continually cover tired old ground. Let's see, I was thinking of my brother today whom I haven't heard from in 6 months and he called, must be telepathy! Perhaps, but what of the 1,000 times that I thought of him and he DID NOT call?

1. People are wired to see patterns, even if there are none.

2. People have selective memory and forget times when nothing happened.

3. People frequently misinterpret events.

Care to give your examples?



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896405 -

In reply to:
(Your use of semantics does not apply).



You sound like a robot. No offense.

In reply to:
Not sure why you bring this up as it was reason and logic that showed otherwise. It was ignorance that believed the earth was flat.



It was reason and logic, at the time, that made people believe the earth was flat. It only became ignorance when we expanded our reason and logic. Our reason and logic now, might as well be proven to be ignorance.



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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #896411 -

In reply to:
Okay well what about telepathy? What if it happened to you more than once, but you knew no way of forcing it to happen for the sake of proving it's existence to someone?


if it actually happened to myself repeatedly, I'd say I have personal evidence and I'd pursue evidence that I could show to others.
I don't believe telepathy exists, because it has never been shown to be true in tests. I believe that anyone who pushes telepathy as a reality is either lying to themselves or lying to everyone else.
if a real psychic ever existed, don't you think he/she'd have gotten loads of publicity and proved it? why are they all confined to $3 per minute 900-numbers and cheesy little shops in the crap part of town?




Also, you talk like hallucinations are more of an illusion than reality... IMO, "reality" could be just as much of an illusion. There are things at the microscopic level that make up what we perceive as real, but when percieved at the microscopic level, become very different. So what you think of as being real could very well be an illusion... not necessarily false, but not in it's true form.



percieved at a microscopic level, things do not appear "different" just "more detailed" . they are the same things, we can just see the parts that make them up. an apple is still an apple if defined as its genetic code and the molecules that make it up. we just realize that our word "apple" represents not only an image and a taste, but a particular arrangement of molecules.

the reality I see may very well be an illusion, but if so, it's an 18-year-long illusion and it doesn't appear to be ending any time soon. so what applies in this reality is all that I can possibly hope to understand. whether or not it is an illusion is irrelevant to me. if someone gets stuck in an 18-year-long acid trip and different rules of logic apply in that existence, then that's fine. that becomes their reality. that's what they need to understand in order to function in that world. but someone coming off an acid trip and pretending that what happened to them in that altered reality can be applied to this one is silly. you just put chemicals in your brain, der.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896418 -

Care to give your examples?

Sometimes, when I'm feeling especially intuitive, my mind can pick up on what people are going to say before they say it. Right when their brains send the signals to say, I can "pick up" on these signals, before they put the thoughts into words. It's happened many times, with a few close friends...

Not sure if that would be branded telepathy or not...


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896419 -

In reply to:
things do not appear "different" just "more detailed"



Different and more detailed are the same. Either way you are looking at something differently. There is more detail, so it is obviously not as you viewed it before.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896420 -

It was reason and logic, at the time, that made people believe the earth was flat.

First off, this is a myth. Ocean-going sailors were excellent observers and knew the earth was not flat.

Second the hypothesis that the earth was flat was not tested, so it was not subjected to logic and reason as you stipulate, but was based on faulty assumptions being passed down.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #896424 -

percieved at a microscopic level, things do not appear "different" just "more detailed" .

Looking at something in more detail would make it appear different.

Just chemicals in the brain huh? That may be true, but these chemicals alter your perception, and allow you to view the same things from different angles. And reality is all about looking at the same things from different angles.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

Edited by Adamist (09/20/02 10:45 PM)

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Swami]
    #896430 -

In reply to:
First off, this is a myth. Ocean-going sailors were excellent observers and knew the earth was not flat.



ah. so you knew an Ocean-going sailor from back then, and he told you he knew the Earth wasn't flat? If not, then some might call this a faulty assumption that was passed down. Also known as here-say.


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: thePatient]
    #896440 -

In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Your use of semantics does not apply).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You sound like a robot. No offense.

Calling an erroneous stance, logical and rational, merely to enhance your weak argument, is what I object to. How my objection is robotic is beyond my meager powers of erudition.




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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: "Sometimes truth defies reason" [Re: Adamist]
    #896441 -

In reply to:
Looking at something in more detail would make it appear different




they do not appear as a different object.

we won't say the apple is no longer an apple will we?

we see a different IMAGE. but we do not see a different entity.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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