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If the Christian god is real... * 1
    #7637515 -

why didn't he make sure the Bible was written accurately?

There is no Biblical indication that “day” is used differently in the beginning chapter of Genesis than it is throughout the rest of the book, or the rest of the Old Testament. The “days” in Genesis 1 are always specifically used in connection with the words “evening and morning.” This phrase is used with “day” 38 times in the Old Testament, not counting Genesis chapter 1. Each time, without exception, the phrase refers to a normal 24 hour type day.

Even if you refuse to accept the truth and think maybe a day to god is a billion years, ask yourself this.

Why would god not correct a translation error that would compromise its validity? He wouldn't a wise god would correct any errors in his ONLY book, a wise god would stop useless suffering that has NO purpose. Neither have happened because A) an intelligent god doesn't exist or B) god is an asshole. Neither receive my worship and neither shouldn't receive yours.

I'm not saying there isn't a divine presence or a higher power but as for an all knowing merciful god we can pretty much assume there isn't one. The problem is smart people are very good at coming up with completely logical reasons why they believe very illogical things.

Edited by Isaac (11/14/07 11:00 PM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac] * 1
    #7637534 -

I believe there is another passage that says "A day with the lord is as 1,000 years." Personally, I've always wondered how you could consider it to be literally a day when there was no sun and no earth to spin on a 24-hour cycle. I don't think that Biblical literalism holds up to relativity in this case.


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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Silversoul] * 1
    #7637549 -

So the earth was created in 6,000 years?

Again this is false.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac] * 1
    #7637554 -

Accept Jesus Christ as your savior and you're saved! No more comments! :mad2:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MushroomTrip] * 1
    #7637572 -

The bible is meant to be read and forgotten

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac] * 1
    #7637573 -

Isaac said:
So the earth was created in 6,000 years?

Again this is false.


Considering the passage is allegory, it needn't be interpreted that way either. Remember that people back then didn't even have a concept of a billion. They never saw 6 billion of anything(except grains of sand, but I don't think they were counting).


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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac] * 1
    #7637580 -

Christ is nothing more than a persona put in the place of the sun, and given the adoration the sun was originally given. Beyond that, the bible and Christian theology is a clone of the Egyptian beliefs, as was their beliefs cloned from ones before them. The root is in astrology.


--------------------
"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living."

General Omar N. Bradley

Edited by 2FiNiTe (11/14/07 10:11 PM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: 2FiNiTe] * 1
    #7637630 -

2FiNiTe said:
Christ is nothing more than a persona put in the place of the sun, and given the adoration the sun was originally given. Beyond that, the bible and Christian theology is a clone of the Egyptian beliefs, as was their beliefs cloned from ones before them. The root is in astrology.


http://www.iranchamber.com/religions/articles/mithraism_influence_on_christianity.php

There's a good place to start beyond merely stating 'Egyptian beliefs'

I still believe the Christ-Mithraism connection is partially historical revision, part the desire of Christianity to remain viable prior and up to the council of Nicea.

I believe the original point was about Genesis, and the lack of God giving you, the reader, time lines for his 'day.'
My Brother in Law is a Lutheran pastor, and explained it in a manner similar to this:

When the Old Testament was written, it was done so in a manner of speech common to that day. Man's perception of the Creation, or the big bang theory for that matter, are more rooted in imagination to this day, as we find difficulty with eternity and other metaphysical concepts.
However, the point of the Bible's lacking isn't a lazy God, but the necessity of choice. If God gave you irrefutable evidence of anything, without the ability to deny it, he robbed you of choice, the most important concept of the Testaments.

And God doesn't let bad things happen, they happen as a matter of choice and causality. We fuck things up enough without big guns upstairs taking the heat for it.

God didn't write the bible, he 'inspired the hearts of men' and to him the word is sufficient.

Christian bashing to commence in 3,2,1...


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

Edited by Crasher (11/14/07 10:33 PM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Silversoul] * 1
    #7637660 -

Silversoul said:
Isaac said:
So the earth was created in 6,000 years?

Again this is false.


Considering the passage is allegory, it needn't be interpreted that way either. Remember that people back then didn't even have a concept of a billion. They never saw 6 billion of anything(except grains of sand, but I don't think they were counting).


Yes it's allegory, symbolic and shouldn't be taken literally. We can learn from the bible spiritually but interpreting it literally creates many holes.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher] * 1
    #7637691 -

Firewolf127 said:
2FiNiTe said:
Christ is nothing more than a persona put in the place of the sun, and given the adoration the sun was originally given. Beyond that, the bible and Christian theology is a clone of the Egyptian beliefs, as was their beliefs cloned from ones before them. The root is in astrology.


http://www.iranchamber.com/religions/articles/mithraism_influence_on_christianity.php

There's a good place to start beyond merely stating 'Egyptian beliefs'

I still believe the Christ-Mithraism connection is partially historical revision, part the desire of Christianity to remain viable prior and up to the council of Nicea.

I believe the original point was about Genesis, and the lack of God giving you, the reader, time lines for his 'day.'
My Brother in Law is a Lutheran pastor, and explained it in a manner similar to this:

When the Old Testament was written, it was done so in a manner of speech common to that day. Man's perception of the Creation, or the big bang theory for that matter, are more rooted in imagination to this day, as we find difficulty with eternity and other metaphysical concepts.
However, the point of the Bible's lacking isn't a lazy God, but the necessity of choice. If God gave you irrefutable evidence of anything, without the ability to deny it, he robbed you of choice, the most important concept of the Testaments.

And God doesn't let bad things happen, they happen as a matter of choice and causality. We fuck things up enough without big guns upstairs taking the heat for it.

God didn't write the bible, he 'inspired the hearts of men' and to him the word is sufficient.

Christian bashing to commence in 3,2,1...


I don't bash any religion. So God didn't write the Bible big deal. It's the one book that represents nearly the entire faith in the Christian religion. If you are disagreeing that an omnipotent potent god of infinite wisdom and power wouldn't correct mistakes and translation errors to ensure the validity of such an important book I'd have to say you're wrong.

You are trading common sense for faith.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac] * 2
    #7637704 -

Firewolf, do you acknowledge the possibility that God had contact not only to the writers of the Bible, but also to Buddha and other figures who genuinely worked for the betterment of the human condition at their own expense?

Isaac, if there is a God, its personality and its consciousness would obviously be so far removed from human comprehension as to render language irrelevant. Do you really think God thinks small enough to edit the Bible or correct chronological errors? Can you imagine it manifesting in a church to have a chat with a monk about all those mistakes in his manuscript?


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/14/07 11:03 PM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 1
    #7637725 -

Tchan909 said:
Isaac, if there is a God, its personality and its consciousness would obviously be so far removed from human comprehension as to render language irrelevant. Do you really think God thinks small enough to edit the Bible?


In the Bible God talks directly to man, so at least in Biblical terms I'd have to say no god's is not too smart to learn any human language.

There are no boundaries to infinite wisdom.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac] * 1
    #7637738 -

When God speaks through a man, it's just that: God speaking through the use of the limited capacities of an individual human being. Whether or not the Bible was inspired by God, it is subject to the assumptions of the time and people that produced it.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/14/07 11:10 PM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 1
    #7637773 -

Tchan909 said:
Firewolf, do you acknowledge the possibility that God had contact not only to the writers of the Bible, but also to Buddha and other figures who genuinely worked for the betterment of the human condition at their own expense?


I contend that whatever God that is speaks to the heart and mind of every man, but in the end, our subjectivity of the message will be our undoing.

Isaac, the reason a Christian God wouldn't fix grammatical errors and continuity issues with scripture comes back to one of the points I presented earlier: Choice.
Man was inspired to write scripture, but it was man that composed the canonical (sp?) gospels as they are presented today. God would not interfere with a book, as he gave Christ to the world for salvation.
The bible is aimed at bringing man into a relationship with Christ, not satisfying a cynic's desire for perfection of syntax.

It's a fool's errand to try and understand the width and breadth of a living god.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 1
    #7637788 -

Tchan909 said:
When God speaks through a man, it's just that: God speaking through the use of the limited capacities of an individual human being. Whether or not the Bible was inspired by God, it is subject to the assumptions of the time and people that produced it.


So in order to communicate with man he had to limit himself?

Can't you see the Bible claims God is omnipotent therefore has no limitations? Where's the evidence of your claim that if god wants to speak with man he has to have the intelligence of man?

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac] * 1
    #7637800 -

I think you misunderstood. The closest thing God has to a mouth is an enlightened human being. The human being is flawed and cannot possibly relate the full awesomeness of God to his fellow human beings. So he does his best, and writes a book.

You also must understood that the people who wrote the Bible did not think like we do. Their minds literally ran on a different track. They barely had a concept of "fiction," let alone all the other literary traditions we rely on today to communicate meaning. The only way they knew to tell stories and explain their world was through symbolism and allegory.

Edited by Tchan909 (11/14/07 11:28 PM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac] * 1
    #7637825 -

Isaac said:
Tchan909 said:
When God speaks through a man, it's just that: God speaking through the use of the limited capacities of an individual human being. Whether or not the Bible was inspired by God, it is subject to the assumptions of the time and people that produced it.


So in order to communicate with man he had to limit himself?

Can't you see the Bible claims God is omnipotent therefore has no limitations? Where's the evidence of your claim that if god wants to speak with man he has to have the intelligence of man?


God constricting himself in order to form the physical universe(Tzimtzum) is a central Kabbalistic teaching. It is the only way a finite universe could emerge from an infinite God. Consider how minuscule a man is compared to the universe, and then from there how much more minuscule he is compared to God. How could such a small mind comprehend infinity? God had to condense his message to such a feeble mind. It would be like writing a quantum mechanics book for children. There is another Kabbalistic teaching which says that the Torah is not scripture. The scriptures are merely the garment which clothes the Torah. The map is not the territory. The words that describe the map are even further removed from the territory.


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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac] * 1
    #7637827 -

Quote:
Can't you see the Bible claims God is omnipotent therefore has no limitations? Where's the evidence of your claim that if god wants to speak with man he has to have the intelligence of man?


Jesus is God in Christianity, the living word and thus one of the ways God (father) spoke to man.

In Islam, Muhammad received direct revelation from an angel, no?


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher] * 1
    #7637837 -

Firewolf127 said:
Tchan909 said:
Firewolf, do you acknowledge the possibility that God had contact not only to the writers of the Bible, but also to Buddha and other figures who genuinely worked for the betterment of the human condition at their own expense?


I contend that whatever God that is speaks to the heart and mind of every man, but in the end, our subjectivity of the message will be our undoing.

Isaac, the reason a Christian God wouldn't fix grammatical errors and continuity issues with scripture comes back to one of the points I presented earlier: Choice.
Man was inspired to write scripture, but it was man that composed the canonical (sp?) gospels as they are presented today. God would not interfere with a book, as he gave Christ to the world for salvation.
The bible is aimed at bringing man into a relationship with Christ, not satisfying a cynic's desire for perfection of syntax.

It's a fool's errand to try and understand the width and breadth of a living god.


Man wasn't inspired but was commanded by God to write the Bible. If you really want me to I'll find the verses. So therefore the Bible is the word of God and if you're saying the Bible isn't the infallible word of God than you are directly disagreeing with the very book you believe in and you can throw out any part you don't see fit, which you seem just fine with doing.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Silversoul] * 1
    #7637852 -

Silversoul said:
Isaac said:
Tchan909 said:
When God speaks through a man, it's just that: God speaking through the use of the limited capacities of an individual human being. Whether or not the Bible was inspired by God, it is subject to the assumptions of the time and people that produced it.


So in order to communicate with man he had to limit himself?

Can't you see the Bible claims God is omnipotent therefore has no limitations? Where's the evidence of your claim that if god wants to speak with man he has to have the intelligence of man?


God constricting himself in order to form the physical universe(Tzimtzum) is a central Kabbalistic teaching. It is the only way a finite universe could emerge from an infinite God. Consider how minuscule a man is compared to the universe, and then from there how much more minuscule he is compared to God. How could such a small mind comprehend infinity? God had to condense his message to such a feeble mind. It would be like writing a quantum mechanics book for children. There is another Kabbalistic teaching which says that the Torah is not scripture. The scriptures are merely the garment which clothes the Torah. The map is not the territory. The words that describe the map are even further removed from the territory.


Gods message in the Bible doesn't appear to be that difficult to understand at all, actually I'd say most ignorant people do fine comprehending its central message. You can't put limitations on an omnipotent being you just can't.

But I'm sure were about to go in circles anyway.


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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7637859 -

Quote:
Man wasn't inspired but was commanded by God to write the Bible. If you really want me to I'll find the verses. So therefore the Bible is the word of God and if you're saying the Bible isn't the infallible word of God than you are directly disagreeing with the very book you believe in and you can throw out any part you don't see fit, which you seem just fine with doing.


*sigh*

Let's clear the air here. My Brother-in-law is a Lutheran Pastor, as is my wife and her sister...
I've seen too many people die in the last year, and am currently at a religious crossroads.

That's not the point.

The word and letter of the old and new testament are not infallible. It is the message that is infallible. If it is King James Version or New International Version or directly translated from Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, it is content that is the word of God.

You're being far too literal.

And please do post your passages, I enjoy learning.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7637865 -

Isaac, being that you're on the Shroomery, I'm willing to take a shot in the dark here and assume that you've eaten mushrooms.

That having been said, have you ever had a mushroom trip where you realized that if there is a God, that God is the consciousness of the universe itself? That we, as human beings, are individual only inasmuch as we inherently recognize the artificial boundary between ourselves and the rest of the universe? Our function in this universe is, as a mass collective, to think for God. We are the brain. Our conversations, our dialogue, our language and art and experiences are the deceptive harmony of a single massive brain trying to come to some kind of understanding. We are nothing but neurons firing away at some incomprehensible existential quandary. Bill Hicks put it this way: we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively.

Think of it this way: God is an infant. Remember when you were an infant and you were monumentally confused, struggling to come to some concrete understanding of what you and the strange sensations bombarding you were?

I kind of went off on a tangent here, but my point is don't have such a limited view of "God."


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/14/07 11:53 PM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7637885 -

Quote:
Gods message in the Bible doesn't appear to be that difficult to understand at all, actually I'd say most ignorant people do fine comprehending its central message. You can't put limitations on an omnipotent being you just can't.

But I'm sure were about to go in circles anyway.


You're putting limitations on an omnipotent being by saying an omnipotent being can't be limited...

It's the classic "can god make a rock so massive that he can't lift it?" argument.

If he can make said stone, than he lacks the power to overcome his own creation= not omnipotent

If he can't make it, once again, not all powerful.

God by our human definition is capable of anything, and yet most religious teachings involve a deity incarnate, living in flesh, bound by man's perceptions.

choice.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7637889 -

Tchan909 said:
I think you misunderstood. The closest thing God has to a mouth is an enlightened human being. The human being is flawed and cannot possibly relate the full awesomeness of God to his fellow human beings. So he does his best, and writes a book.

You also must understood that the people who wrote the Bible did not think like we do. Their minds literally ran on a different track. They barely had a concept of "fiction," let alone all the other literary traditions we rely on today to communicate meaning. The only way they knew to tell stories and explain their world was through symbolism and allegory.


Yeah Gods soooo inmeasurable wise he can only relate to man through symbolism.

That's saying God can't do something and the Bibles says God can do anything, therefore you disagree with aspects of the Bible.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7637891 -

If god is an infant, we're all fucked anyway. Cheers!


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7637917 -

Tchan909 said:
Isaac, being that you're on the Shroomery, I'm willing to take a shot in the dark here and assume that you've eaten mushrooms.

That having been said, have you ever had a mushroom trip where you realized that if there is a God, that God is the consciousness of the universe itself? That we, as human beings, are individual only inasmuch as we inherently recognize the artificial boundary between ourselves and the rest of the universe? Our function in this universe is, as a mass collective, to think for God. We are the brain. Our conversations, our dialogue, our language and art and experiences are the deceptive harmony of a single massive brain trying to come to some kind of understanding. We are nothing but neurons firing away at some incomprehensible existential quandary. Bill Hicks put it this way: we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively.

Think of it this way: God is an infant. Remember when you were an infant and you were monumentally confused, struggling to come to some concrete understanding of what you and the strange sensations bombarding you were?

I kind of went off on a tangent here, but my point is don't have such a limited view of "God."


I am not disagreeing with the idea of god only the Bibles definition of an omnipotent god, it claims god is not monumentally confused or struggling in any way. The Bible claims he has limitless power and has no boundaries therefore your definition of god doesn't quite match the Bibles definition of God.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7637924 -

That is true. My only point is that God is an abstract being and any attempt to determine its definitive nature by individual human beings will inherently be flawed, including the Bible, however much truth is also in there.

Self-awareness is a tricky thing, ya know?


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/15/07 12:13 AM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7637970 -

Firewolf127 said:
Quote:
Gods message in the Bible doesn't appear to be that difficult to understand at all, actually I'd say most ignorant people do fine comprehending its central message. You can't put limitations on an omnipotent being you just can't.

But I'm sure were about to go in circles anyway.


You're putting limitations on an omnipotent being by saying an omnipotent being can't be limited...

It's the classic "can god make a rock so massive that he can't lift it?" argument.

If he can make said stone, than he lacks the power to overcome his own creation= not omnipotent

If he can't make it, once again, not all powerful.

God by our human definition is capable of anything, and yet most religious teachings involve a deity incarnate, living in flesh, bound by man's perceptions.

choice.


Humans are extremely simple beings, comparisons using "can god make a rock so massive that he can't lift it?" argument need not apply.

It does apply to the limits of an omnipotent being which I am finding some tasty food for thought right now but God wouldn't need nor want to limit himself to any aspect of his creation. If he can only create simple beings and it require him being limited you are again disagreeing with the Bible.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7637987 -

Tchan909 said:
That is true. My only point is that God is an abstract being and any attempt to determine its definitive nature by individual human beings will inherently be flawed, including the Bible, however much truth is also in there.

Self-awareness is a tricky thing, ya know?


Isn't it permissible to think common sense applies to all knowing divine beings just as it does humans?

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7637990 -

I would like to clarify, at this point, that I do not believe in God.

I just really hope God exists.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7638004 -

Tchan909 said:
I would like to clarify, at this point, that I do not believe in God.

I just really hope God exists.


Can I ask you why you don't believe in god?

The lack of mercy and his lack of intervention on useless suffering does it for me.

But I'm not completely atheist I'm open to the idea of god just that god may be somehow limited. This isn't an anti-god thread it's a don't take the Bible literal thread. It speaks metaphorically so interpreted it as such, never as fact. I take from it it's positive lessons not much more.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7638017 -

In what capacity are humans 'simple beings?'

you're contending that common sense tells you what god would want or think. how can simple beings get that? do you believe you know the mind of god?

I'd like to see my deviation from scripture on this, but i'll wait until the morning.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7638024 -

I'm not an atheist, I'm what you might call a positive agnostic. I believe it's quite possible that we are more than we appear to be, immortal spirits cased in a temporary mortal flesh, and I believe it's quite possible that there is a universal consciousness that has made meaningful contact with individuals.

However, I also believe it's imminently possible that when I die I will rot in the ground, that the universe is just a huge barren pile of stuff in which one (or more) tiny little planet happened to be able to support this funny little thing called life.

I don't like to jump to conclusions.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7638028 -

and if this is going to become an 'oh god why do bad things happen to good people' thread... I'll pass. Humans fuck it up for themselves, and if there is a god, he left a pretty simple plan to stop it.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7638051 -

Firewolf127said:

In what capacity are humans 'simple beings?'

you're contending that common sense tells you what god would want or think. how can simple beings get that? do you believe you know the mind of god?

I'd like to see my deviation from scripture on this, but i'll wait until the morning.


We are physically and in general meantally (but not exclusively) simple beings, at the very least in comparison to a limitless god. Sorry but if God doesn't have common sense than his wisdom is therefore limited. If you are saying he has to limit himself for mans comprehension you are saying he is of finite power and disagreeing with the Bible.

If god wants to lift a stone so heavy he can't lift it than he can (atleast by the definition of having infinite power). If he want's to lift a stone heavier than he can lift then desides to lift it, he can HE HAS NO BOUNDARIES. God could create anything anyway he saw fit and if THIS is the best he could do I have to say I'm very dissapointed. Come on why doesn't he atleast stop useless suffering?





Quote:
Tchan909 said:
I'm not an atheist, I'm what you might call a positive agnostic. I believe it's quite possible that we are more than we appear to be, immortal spirits cased in a temporary mortal flesh, and I believe it's quite possible that there is a universal consciousness that has made meaningful contact with individuals.

However, I also believe it's imminently possible that when I die I will rot in the ground, that the universe is just a huge barren pile of stuff in which one (or more) tiny little planet happened to be able to support this funny little thing called life.

I don't like to jump to conclusions.


I dont like to jumoo to conclusions either thats why I think it's important for christians as well as atheists to remain open minded to agnostism becuase no one can be certain what happens when you die.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Silversoul]
    #7638055 -

Silversoul said:
Isaac said:
Tchan909 said:
When God speaks through a man, it's just that: God speaking through the use of the limited capacities of an individual human being. Whether or not the Bible was inspired by God, it is subject to the assumptions of the time and people that produced it.


So in order to communicate with man he had to limit himself?

Can't you see the Bible claims God is omnipotent therefore has no limitations? Where's the evidence of your claim that if god wants to speak with man he has to have the intelligence of man?


God constricting himself in order to form the physical universe(Tzimtzum) is a central Kabbalistic teaching. It is the only way a finite universe could emerge from an infinite God. Consider how minuscule a man is compared to the universe, and then from there how much more minuscule he is compared to God. How could such a small mind comprehend infinity? God had to condense his message to such a feeble mind. It would be like writing a quantum mechanics book for children. There is another Kabbalistic teaching which says that the Torah is not scripture. The scriptures are merely the garment which clothes the Torah. The map is not the territory. The words that describe the map are even further removed from the territory.


Btw this is addressing Christianity not Judaism.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7638058 -

I think that what you're really at odds with here isn't Christianity or the Bible itself, but with the literal interpretation of the bible. In a word, Evangelicalism.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7638060 -

If the Christian god is real...

I'd rather go to hell.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Kinematics]
    #7638070 -

Kinematics said:
If the Christian god is real...

I'd rather go to hell.


Yeah it wouldn't be good to have to sit in heaven knowing that there are millions of people in hell and there was nothing I could do about it, THAT would be hell to me.

Tchan I think yes Christianity and the Bible fail to meet standards of literal interpretation. I also think a wise god would make the world a better place if he had the power, shit he could at least give us better tools to reach such a reality.

Edited by Isaac (11/15/07 01:16 AM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7638091 -

The God Who Wasn't There

Part One:
http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?t...nnel=525261929

Part Two:
http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?t...nnel=525261929

Part Three:
http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?t...nnel=525261929

Part Four:
http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?t...nnel=525261929

Part Five:
http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?t...nnel=525261929

Part Six:
http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?t...nnel=525261929

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7638158 -

Who's to say that hell isn't better than we deserve?

If God exists, and he created the universe, and every law that binds it together, how can we say our concept of common sense can ever come close to being accurate to him?

Who here can create self-sustaining universe?

But who am I to say that this one is sustaining itself really at all?


--------------------
“Why does Hello Kitty drive us to kill? Is it the cute little bow or the dead, soulless eyes?”

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Tsion]
    #7638255 -

Tsion said:
Who's to say that hell isn't better than we deserve?

If God exists, and he created the universe, and every law that binds it together, how can we say our concept of common sense can ever come close to being accurate to him?

Who here can create self-sustaining universe?

But who am I to say that this one is sustaining itself really at all?


Which is smarter the stoning to death of disobedient children or the spanking of disobedient children?

Is the answer obvious? The Bible advocates stoning but just because it's in the old testament people like to make excuses. I'd say it's never acceptable before or after any Mosaic law.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Tsion]
    #7638259 -

Tsion said:
Who's to say that hell isn't better than we deserve?

If God exists, and he created the universe, and every law that binds it together, how can we say our concept of common sense can ever come close to being accurate to him?

Who here can create self-sustaining universe?

But who am I to say that this one is sustaining itself really at all?


Do you think you deserve an eternal lake of fire?

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7638261 -

Back in the day, they would say that spanking your kids wouldn't do shit. And they're pretty much right.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7638272 -

So kill them? :rofl2:

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7638854 -

Quote:
Gods message in the Bible doesn't appear to be that difficult to understand at all, actually I'd say most ignorant people do fine comprehending its central message. You can't put limitations on an omnipotent being you just can't.


It seems simple because you're reading it in English an have no knowledge of gematria, or midrash. There are several layers of meaning in the Bible's stories, and if the only meaning you can see is literal, then you're no better than the fundamentalists.

Quote:
Btw this is addressing Christianity not Judaism.


Oh, you mean the religion Jesus followed? Somehow I think that's relevant.


--------------------

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7638998 -

I think God gives us the strength and power within ourselves and we can choose to listen or not.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7639112 -

Quote:
Isaac said:Do you think you deserve an eternal lake of fire?


I do. Even if by worldly standards people tell me "I've done nothing wrong" and that "I'm a good person", I don't think any of us can relate to the purity of God's heart. By that standard, the standard that I believe, I deserve nothing but the worst.


--------------------
“Why does Hello Kitty drive us to kill? Is it the cute little bow or the dead, soulless eyes?”

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Silversoul]
    #7639446 -

Silversoul said:
It seems simple because you're reading it in English an have no knowledge of gematria, or midrash. There are several layers of meaning in the Bible's stories, and if the only meaning you can see is literal, then you're no better than the fundamentalists.



It's when you try taking the Bible literal it doesn't stand up to modern science. Did you know there are two separate creation stories in the book of Genesis? Are you going to take that literal? Do you really think there were two separate creations? Maybe it's just a different version of the same story so wouldn't it be foolish to take it literal, it HAS to remain symbolic. So you can't just pick and choose which parts you are and aren't going to take literal, it all has to remain symbollic.

And are you just going to ignore the Bible says to follow the laws of your land? That means no shrooms or pot or anything the government doesn't allow us to do. Are you not going to have premarital sex?

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7639477 -

why didn't he make sure the Bible was written accurately?

To win a bet with one of the angels that he could make those idiot humans believe and defend anything.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7639478 -

You're making any sense. I'm the one advocating a symbolic interpretation while you're getting stuck on literalism. As a matter of fact, Judaism has a rich interpretive history, and literalism for them is the exception rather than the rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash


--------------------

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Silversoul]
    #7639506 -

Silversoul said:
You're making any sense. I'm the one advocating a symbolic interpretation while you're getting stuck on literalism. As a matter of fact, Judaism has a rich interpretive history, and literalism for them is the exception rather than the rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash


So then you can't say God had any part of it right?

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Tsion]
    #7639537 -

Tsion said:
Quote:
Isaac said:Do you think you deserve an eternal lake of fire?


I do. Even if by worldly standards people tell me "I've done nothing wrong" and that "I'm a good person", I don't think any of us can relate to the purity of God's heart. By that standard, the standard that I believe, I deserve nothing but the worst.


That doesn't make sense for us to deserve hell just because we aren't God. We are a creation from God so damning us all to hell just because we aren't him isn't biblical.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7641282 -

Quote:
That doesn't make sense for us to deserve hell just because we aren't God. We are a creation from God so damning us all to hell just because we aren't him isn't biblical.


After reading your last few posts, I am beginning to wonder what Bible you read from... We damned ourselves with original sin by disobeying the word of god, thus in god's eyes, deserving punishment.

What are the two creation stories in Genesis, please? I find just the one. Stop letting your anger against a god you don't understand cloud your reason.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7641302 -

I think you're confusing Ultimate Reality as described by Christian anthropomorphism, inherited from an ancient Hebrew mythos with the collective writings called the canonical Bible. Your assumptions about the writings 10 being holy scripture, and 20 being 'the infallible Word of God' are evident in your questioning. I'd suggest deconstructing your assumptions first, then looking at Christian traditions as one imperfect attempt to capture Ultimate Freedom on a page.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7641339 -

Quote:
And are you just going to ignore the Bible says to follow the laws of your land? That means no shrooms or pot or anything the government doesn't allow us to do. Are you not going to have premarital sex?


you generalize what the bible says, and make it easier to say it's all literal or all symbolic. Different books in the bible are written by different people, all inspired by God. However, you can't take Revelations literally, because in context it is known to be a vision of the future that was inspired. How about Psalms? They are songs of praise for God. The point is an actual student of the word knows where, what, and why it is literal or allegorical.

Also, Jesus said obey the laws of the land, just like he said give to Caesar what is his. Then he died on the cross to forgive mankind for our inability to follow God's law.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7641380 -

Galatians actually states that the laws put forth in the Old Testament, particularly the septuagint (which includes Leviticus and all those other hardcore books about stoning and sacrifices at the temple, not to mention most of the stuff about gay people) do not need to be followed by Christians.

People ignore that a lot, particularly Evangelicals.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/15/07 07:17 PM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7641877 -

Quote:
do not need to be followed by Christians.



But they are good guidelines for everyone else?  :lol: :rofl:

I'm guessing that you are referring to these passages from Galatians:

"Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For what the flesh desires is opposed to the Spirit, and what the Spirit desires is opposed to the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law.

Now the works of the flesh are obvious: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these. I am warning you, as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

I read this as saying that those who are "led by the Spirit" will automatically reject all these evil desires of the flesh.  This means that Christians must prove their spirituality through their actions, and not that Christians are somehow above the absurd laws outlined in the Old Testament.


Edited by Veritas (11/15/07 09:27 PM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Veritas]
    #7642673 -

Quote:
Why would god not correct a translation error that would compromise its validity? He wouldn't a wise god would correct any errors in his ONLY book, a wise god would stop useless suffering that has NO purpose. Neither have happened because A) an intelligent god doesn't exist or B) god is an lalala. Neither receive my worship and neither shouldn't receive yours.


It's a lot like other things, you have to use discernment to find the
right way. God never said it would be easy. The idea in any case is that even if there is not one perfectly translated bible, we still have the manuscripts which can tell us what it says with a high degree of certainty.

God doesn't do useless things. It's man that inflicts useless suffering upon himself or others.


silversoul:

Quote:
I believe there is another passage that says "A day with the lord is as 1,000 years." Personally, I've always wondered how you could consider it to be literally a day when there was no sun and no earth to spin on a 24-hour cycle. I don't think that Biblical literalism holds up to relativity in this case.


the day with the Lord is as 1,000 years is not meant to be literal, it is meant as an allegory. It's talking about Gods longsuffering and his being outside of time.

Quote:
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.



Scripture says there were days even before the sun and moon were created. God said "let there be light" and there was light.

isaac:

Quote:
So the earth was created in 6,000 years?

Again this is false.


According to what? Faulty dating methods and circular reasoning?

silversoul:


Quote:
Considering the passage is allegory, it needn't be interpreted that way either. Remember that people back then didn't even have a concept of a billion. They never saw 6 billion of anything(except grains of sand, but I don't think they were counting).


No it is not an allegory.

If you understood the hebrew word yom, you would realize the only thing it can mean other than a literal day, is an indefinate period of time. The number structures that are used is designating one day are consistant with the literal reading of genesis. Besides, a word has to have a literal meaning before it can be used metaphorically. That's just how language works.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v19/i1/days.asp

2finite:


Quote:
Christ is nothing more than a persona put in the place of the sun, and given the adoration the sun was originally given. Beyond that, the bible and Christian theology is a clone of the Egyptian beliefs, as was their beliefs cloned from ones before them. The root is in astrology.



Egyptian beliefs are really an adaptation of babylonian mystery religion. And that was formed by taking prophecy that pertained to the messiah and applying it to themselves in order to deify themselves, that is Nimrod and Semiramis, and also mixing in a bunch of other pagan nonsense.


firewolf:

Quote:
However, the point of the Bible's lacking isn't a lazy God, but the necessity of choice. If God gave you irrefutable evidence of anything, without the ability to deny it, he robbed you of choice, the most important concept of the Testaments.


You can have irrefutable evidence and still deny it.

Quote:
And God doesn't let bad things happen, they happen as a matter of choice and causality. We lalala things up enough without big guns upstairs taking the heat for it.


God does let bad things happen. And why is he obligated to save man out of every situation he puts himself into? Or why is God responsible for man's fallen state? What if God has a good reason for letting people suffer? Consider that.

Quote:
God didn't write the bible, he 'inspired the hearts of men' and to him the word is sufficient.



God did both.

Isaac:

Quote:
If you are disagreeing that an omnipotent potent god of infinite wisdom and power wouldn't correct mistakes and translation errors to ensure the validity of such an important book I'd have to say you're wrong.


It's not necessary. It's just a luxury that you somehow have come to expect because of your mindset and worldview. As long as people are able to learn and read and discern God's word somehow, that's what matters.

Quote:
You are trading common sense for faith.


Faith is common sense. faith is the evidence of things not seen. It's the recognition of what we know, what we perceive in our "hearts". Things that are eternal. Nothing is more sure than that.

tchan:
Quote:
Isaac, if there is a God, its personality and its consciousness would obviously be so far removed from human comprehension as to render language irrelevant. Do you really think God thinks small enough to edit the Bible or correct chronological errors? Can you imagine it manifesting in a church to have a chat with a monk about all those mistakes in his manuscript?


Why would He have to be so far removed? Aren't you able to communicate with a less intelligent and less developed being for instance a small child, but only in limited capacity? So God can communicate with us on a limited scale (right now).


I think you misunderstood. The closest thing God has to a mouth is an enlightened human being. The human being is flawed and cannot possibly relate the full awesomeness of God to his fellow human beings. So he does his best, and writes a book.


Even if man cannot relate to the full awesomeness of God, that does not mean he cannot perceive his awesome nature. Man doesn't need to relate the full awesomeness of God to others. He just needs to write what God moved him to.

tchan909:


You also must understood that the people who wrote the Bible did not think like we do. Their minds literally ran on a different track. They barely had a concept of "fiction," let alone all the other literary traditions we rely on today to communicate meaning

What nonsense. Source please.

silversoul:

How could such a small mind comprehend infinity?

Spiritual intuition.

God doesn't need to condense his entire nature and all knowledge for us. He only needs to tell us what we need to know now.

God wasn't constrained in creating a finite universe. He wanted to create a finite universe so he created a finite universe.

isaac:

Man wasn't inspired but was commanded by God to write the Bible. If you really want me to I'll find the verses. So therefore the Bible is the word of God and if you're saying the Bible isn't the infallible word of God than you are directly disagreeing with the very book you believe in and you can throw out any part you don't see fit, which you seem just fine with doing.


There is scripture that is inspired by God and there is scripture that is directly commanded by God. There is both.

isaac:


I dont like to jumoo to conclusions either thats why I think it's important for christians as well as atheists to remain open minded to agnostism becuase no one can be certain what happens when you die.

Sounds like you have convinced yourself you cannot find any definitive truth. I'm sorry for you, I know that to not be the case.

isaac:

Which is smarter the stoning to death of disobedient children or the spanking of disobedient children?

Is the answer obvious? The Bible advocates stoning but just because it's in the old testament people like to make excuses. I'd say it's never acceptable before or after any Mosaic law.

You need to get your facts straight. Hebrew children were not stoned to death just for being mildly disobedient. This is after he is consistently disobedient and will not change his ways.


silversoul:

It seems simple because you're reading it in English an have no knowledge of gematria, or midrash.

Here's a lesson for you all. If the bible makes sense, you according to some haven't added enough external confusing mystical nonsense to make a literal reading inconsequential.

I do. Even if by worldly standards people tell me "I've done nothing wrong" and that "I'm a good person", I don't think any of us can relate to the purity of God's heart. By that standard, the standard that I believe, I deserve nothing but the worst.

I think if you could relate to the purity of God's heart, you would have recognized his nature through the knowledge he has given you and you would be a Christian.

isaac:

It's when you try taking the Bible literal it doesn't stand up to modern science. Did you know there are two separate creation stories in the book of Genesis?

It does stand up to science. And you are very wrong, there are not two creation stories, this is a myth spread by ignorance. There is the creation story, that talks about the whole creation, and then there is another part where God was creating things in the garden of eden.


it HAS to remain symbolic.

No, it has to remain literal. You never had justification to interperet it symbolically to begin with from exegesis.


And are you just going to ignore the Bible says to follow the laws of your land? That means no shrooms or pot or anything the government doesn't allow us to do.

Why no natural drugs? God gave us permission to use plants for food and consumption in Genesis 1. Do you believe in government at all? Do you just support the laws you like and ignore the rest? Doesn't that go against the point of laws in the first place?

silversoul:


You're making any sense. I'm the one advocating a symbolic interpretation while you're getting stuck on literalism. As a matter of fact, Judaism has a rich interpretive history, and literalism for them is the exception rather than the rule.

The midrash is irrelevant it is not part of the torah. It has no authority. It's just like the numerous other oral traditions made by men that are unauthorized and unverified. Jesus publicly spoke against this practice.


That doesn't make sense for us to deserve *** just because we aren't God. We are a creation from God so damning us all to *** just because we aren't him isn't biblical.

People don't go to hell just because they arn't just like God, neither do they need to be exactly like Him. The bible teaches people go to judgement because they resist God's call to humanity, and because they are sinners worthy of that judgement. It's not unreasonable to consider such a judgement, when you sin against an almighty and eternal God. It is harsh, but that's the nature of judgement. Thankfully, God wants to save all of us.

I think you're confusing Ultimate Reality as described by Christian anthropomorphism, inherited from an ancient Hebrew mythos with the collective writings called the canonical Bible. Your assumptions about the writings 10 being holy scripture, and 20 being 'the infallible Word of God' are evident in your questioning. I'd suggest deconstructing your assumptions first, then looking at Christian traditions as one imperfect attempt to capture Ultimate Freedom on a page.

How about just reading it as it is and let scripture speak for itself and weigh it against other evidence and reason.

firewolf:


The point is an actual student of the word knows where, what, and why it is literal or allegorical.

You don't need to be a college grad to discern literal and non-literal. Children can do it.

Also, Jesus said obey the laws of the land, just like he said give to Caesar what is his. Then he died on the cross to forgive mankind for our inability to follow God's law.

No, he did not die to forgive mankind for his inability to follow god's law. It is only with God from the beginning that man can bring spiritual fruit. Man was created for God, to dwell in man. Fallen man cannot be perfect without God. Jesus died as a sacrifice for our sins, and not only this, but when he died he rose again as a quickening Spirit, and God's power of grace works in those who believe to perfect them in righteousness and love.


Galatians actually states that the laws put forth in the Old Testament, particularly the septuagint (which includes Leviticus and all those other hardcore books about stoning and sacrifices at the temple, not to mention most of the stuff about *** people) do not need to be followed by Christians.

That's false. The levitical law, that is besides the ten commandments , the temple service, and sacrifices, and religious rituals, and other laws, don't need to be followed. But the ten commandments are not annuled by any means (as Jesus himself and scripture point out several times), neither the righteousness that the o.t. civil laws were based on. When the new testament rejects the old law, it's rejecting the old temple service and sacrifices and such, which were a "shadow of the good things to come" in Christ. That is, they were an allegory, a tutor to lead to Christ. As for gay people, there are verses in the new testament that clearly speak against that.

But it's true that Christians shouldn't go around stoning or judging others. It's not that there's a double standard, it's that justice is good, but mercy is better.

veritas:


I read this as saying that those who are "led by the Spirit" will automatically reject all these evil desires of the flesh.

Not quite. It's not on autopilot. It requires willing obedience on the part of the believer. Christians work with God, not working as mindless robots.

"This means that Christians must prove their spirituality through their actions, and not that Christians are somehow above the absurd laws outlined in the Old Testament."

Christians are above many of the troublesome laws in the o.t. (which in the n.t. are called a burden) but you are right about Christians proving themselves through their actions. To abide in Christ, you must bear fruit, or you will be cut off and cast into the fire (john 15) Jesus says to judge others by their fruit.

Edited by jonathan_206 (11/16/07 11:49 AM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7642695 -

A lot of people can't seem to understand that in spite of the YHWH's omnipotence and infinite goodness, He doesn't want life to be easy for His children. He wants them to learn for themselves. Would He really be infinitely good if he coddled us and spoiled us, like an entire species of little Paris Hiltons? He tried that with the garden of Eden, and it didn't work. What kind of divine father would He be if He didn't let us learn our lessons for ourselves?

Some sects of Gnosticism view YHWH as a mad scientist. I think this view holds up well, as it seems most of His interactions with humans amount to tests. Will you eat the apple? Will Job worship me even if I shit on him? Will they listen to Jesus, a man who symbolically gives his life for the redemption of humanity? Will they still be able to interpret the meat of the Bible when half of its contents are proven wrong or become functionally obsolete when taken literally? I'm on the edge of my seat here, and I'm sure God is too.

Edited by Tchan909 (11/16/07 01:15 AM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7642705 -

jonathan, Thanks for your responses.

I am in disagreement with the necessity to bear fruit in order to attain salvation. The necessity to bear fruit takes the power of Christ's death and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and circumvents it, saying that man can attain salvation on by himself.

Thank you in advance for your approach to the topic.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7642708 -

Tchan, I respected your perspective until you said Jesus died for our sins symbolically. Unless you see the necessity of Christ's crucification, and see it as literal, you've missed a massive portion of scripture.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7642712 -

I'm not Christian and I don't believe Jesus was actually a "child of God" anymore than any other human being. I think he was a great man and a beautiful example to live by, and his sacrifice moves me; I also think some of his followers likely capitalized on his popularity to make a grab for power and made up some of the stuff found in the New Testament after he died.

I could be wrong. There's no real way to know for the time being. Personally, I find his sacrifice more powerful and meaningful when I consider him a child of man, not a child of God. I respect your beliefs, I simply differ in my interpretation of events.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/16/07 01:29 AM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7642730 -

Your interpretation of events makes this beautiful man, Jesus, into
A- A liar
B- Insane
C- God

What are his contributions if he was lying about being the true Son of God?

His followers suffered fates worse than that he himself suffered, where is the gain in that?


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7642745 -

I am saying that Jesus's words are probably distorted in the New Testament we read today. Scholars agree that the Gospel of John, for example, which discusses his particular divinity most extensively, was most likely written well after the life and death of Christ.

The real substance of his teachings, the way of life he exemplified and taught, remains clear to see in the New Testament for believers and nonbelievers alike, and should be heeded by all. It is the antagonistic abuse of power-hungry rulers that have made his teachings, which should be available to all, into something divisive.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/16/07 01:42 AM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7642752 -

The original manuscripts for the New Testament have been cited as being written well within the first ten years after Christ's death, at which point there were already followers aside from the apostles.

I'm saying you can't call Jesus a great figure and teacher unless you believe in his divinity. That just makes him a crackpot who called himself god. Hell, I'm sure a hefty portion of the posters on the shroomery have make the same claim!


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7642759 -

Even if he did call himself the son of God (which I'm trying to say I'm not entirely sure he really did), who can deny him the right to that belief if he truly lived for the benefit of his fellow man?

While the rest of the gospels most likely were written by the actual followers of Jesus himself, the Gospel of John has a lot of strikes against its credibility as a close-and-personal account of Jesus. For example, that it was not even written in the vernacular of the time Jesus lived in.

I really don't like getting into arguments over religion... like I said, I respect your beliefs and admit the possibility that I'm very wrong. This is just how I have chosen to interpret the things I've seen.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/16/07 01:54 AM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7642786 -

If you deny his purpose and his stated nature, you'd have to just as easily deny his supposed works. How could you be sure anything in the bible happened? denying he is what he says he is and saying he cared about mankind is a difficult conclusion to reach.

If the passages regarding his divinity are false, the new testament becomes invalid, and there is no reason to heed his teachings.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7642805 -

I'm not sure anything happened. All I can do is look at the tale that has been handed down over the millenia and make my own sense of it.

Maybe Jesus truly was the child of God in that nobody else in his place and time had remotely such a connection with the cosmic sense of human goodness? Meanings are never set in stone.

Judaism and its offshoots have always seemed to break down when they are taken at face-value, with black-and-white thinking. They are suffuse with mysteries and shades of gray.

Edited by Tchan909 (11/16/07 02:12 AM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7643037 -

Tchan909 said:
A lot of people can't seem to understand that in spite of the YHWH's omnipotence and infinite goodness, He doesn't want life to be easy for His children. He wants them to learn for themselves. Would He really be infinitely good if he coddled us and spoiled us, like an entire species of little Paris Hiltons? He tried that with the garden of Eden, and it didn't work. What kind of divine father would He be if He didn't let us learn our lessons for ourselves?

Some sects of Gnosticism view YHWH as a mad scientist. I think this view holds up well, as it seems most of His interactions with humans amount to tests. Will you eat the apple? Will Job worship me even if I shit on him? Will they listen to Jesus, a man who symbolically gives his life for the redemption of humanity? Will they still be able to interpret the meat of the Bible when half of its contents are proven wrong or become functionally obsolete when taken literally? I'm on the edge of my seat here, and I'm sure God is too.


Well said!

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7643074 -

"If the passages regarding his divinity are false, the new testament becomes invalid, and there is no reason to heed his teachings."

This is a blind, which is to say, unconscious assumption. The midrashic style of writing well illustrates Iesus as the illuminated focus of the New Testament. A unique ontological status does not validate Christianity and in fact is actually a groundless assertion. That is the ancient conclusion of those who still conceived of Deity in crudely anthropomorphic terms. Even Pagan philosophers of antiquity, like Celsus, recognized this.

Iesus is more usefully and helpfully understood as the West's archetype
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archetype of humanity. A literal human manifestation of Formless Deity is none other than Greek mythological thinking. This is the main reason why Jews never accepted the Divinity of Iesus as being a Divinity other than the Immanence of the Omnipresent God in all of us and in every point of creation. Miracles and theophanies all belong to Jewish midrash and to Jewish mythos in general. Every miraculous event which is attributed to Iesus can be found scattered throughout the world's religious traditions from walking on water to healings to resurrection. If you want to insist on Iesus' Divinity being that which the validity of Christianity is based upon, you are inadvertantly building a strong case against Christianity because if the validity of Christianity is based on the Divinity of Christ, and His Divinity simultaneously means the uniqueness of Christ, then proving that the claims for Christ are NOT unique negates the Divine basis for His uniqueness.

Now Christians have usually maintained that in THIS instance, the archetypal (in a Platonic sense) or the mythological dimension Really manifested historically. I bought this myself when I became a Christian, but that decision was an uncritical one based on my personal need for something substantial (historically grounded in the physical plane) to believe in. It was an assumption which I chalked up to 'a leap of faith.' That faith has yielded to gnosis, a Knowing that is a Way of Being. That Way of Being is none other than The Way, which is what followers of Iesus called themselves before they were called Christians. Jesus was 'Christed,' no doubt about it, but so are His followers who have become His Initiates - those whose 'faith' in the possibility of becoming 'Christed' have been 'Christed' in some measure themselves. Those who are Initiates 'have eyes to see,' they have 'gnosis,' first-hand experience of Christ because they too live The Way.

The Ascension, Resurrection, Judgement are processes in each moment, not historical processes for Initiates of Gnosis. The stories about historical events are illustrations about archetypal omnipresent facets of the spiritual life. "Let those with ears, hear."


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7643082 -

I tend to just go by:

"When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind."

Now, if you'd excuse me, I'm going to go listen to some John Lennon. :peace:


--------------------
"Love is what we are born with. Fear is what we have learned here. The spiritual journey is the unlearning of fear and the acceptance of love back into our hearts."
:hippie:

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: spanky43]
    #7643333 -

dude your avatar is magical.

Xtianity is the religion of Paul not Josh-us.

The Bible was compiled by a Roman Emperor and revised by a British King (same thing) to serve their socio-political agendas.

The secrets of the scriptures are best understood by a thorough study of ancient Egyptian and Mesopotamian mythologies, imo.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Middleman]
    #7643945 -

Quote:
jonathan, Thanks for your responses.

I am in disagreement with the necessity to bear fruit in order to attain salvation. The necessity to bear fruit takes the power of Christ's death and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and circumvents it, saying that man can attain salvation on by himself.


But that's not what it implies at all. To forgive our sins is not enough. We need to be brought back to a level of perfection to have fellowship with God, and to have love and righteousness in us, indeed to be loving and righteous. To forgive us is good, but it's not enough. If he forgives us of our sins, but then leaves us in a fallen state, then we are not truly redeemed. If we live righteous, then we are righteous, and this has been the Christian teaching all along. It's not attaining salvation by ourselves, by the same sacrifice Jesus was able to make for our sins, he initiated a covenant of grace, that is a power of grace to work in us and with us, to perfect us in love and righteousness. This is what scripture clearly teaches, and what so many cannot see, because they are blind.

tchan:

Quote:
Even if he did call himself the son of God (which I'm trying to say I'm not entirely sure he really did),



He did. Absolutely. It's so obvious it doesn't need to be pointed out. I only need one example. If you don't recognize this, you should go do some studying, and then come back.

markosthegnostic:


Quote:
Iesus is more usefully and helpfully understood as the West's archetype
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archetype of humanity. A literal human manifestation of Formless Deity is none other than Greek mythological thinking. This is the main reason why Jews never accepted the Divinity of Iesus as being a Divinity other than the Immanence of the Omnipresent God in all of us and in every point of creation. Miracles and theophanies all belong to Jewish midrash and to Jewish mythos in general. Every miraculous event which is attributed to Iesus can be found scattered throughout the world's religious traditions from walking on water to healings to resurrection. If you want to insist on Iesus' Divinity being that which the validity of Christianity is based upon, you are inadvertantly building a strong case against Christianity because if the validity of Christianity is based on the Divinity of Christ, and His Divinity simultaneously means the uniqueness of Christ, then proving that the claims for Christ are NOT unique negates the Divine basis for His uniqueness.


You compare historical narrative to mythology. Don't you realize that
whether you like it or not, thousands and thousands of people were witness to his miracles?? So what if some nonsensical mythology has some miracle that's also found in scripture. Your premise is incorrect.


middleman:

Quote:
Xtianity is the religion of Paul not Josh-us.


Christianity as explained by paul, is in exact accordance with Jesus' teachings, and it has been tried for many moons to seperate Paul's letters with Christs teachings, but to none avail. To annul Pauls writings would be to annul Christ's as well.

Quote:
The Bible was compiled by a Roman Emperor and revised by a British King (same thing) to serve their socio-political agendas.


This is a partial truth. That british king was only one king in history. There were several revisions before that kings revision. And there is absolutely no evidence it was "complied by a roman emporor". It was compiled by many clergy who were gathered together in a council that was "sponsored" by constantine (who by the way had contradicting beliefs from the councils conclusion). The compilation was really not made then, it was really an affirmation of the scripture that had been recognized as authoritive for a while. If you get your information from places like Tom browns book, prepare to be wrong, alot.

Edited by jonathan_206 (11/16/07 11:51 PM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7643959 -

I like this guy. He's like fivepointer lite.


--------------------

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Silversoul]
    #7643974 -

It's the same ol crap. It's written in some old book that says it's the word of God and so it is and so everybody else is wrong and if you don't do it you will go to hell. Lite my ass. It's fucking sick and makes man into an idiot and a slave.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7644505 -

jonathan_206 said:

Quote:
This is a partial truth. That british king was only one king in history. There were several revisions before that kings revision.


Right, but King James' is the one most Xtians are "authorized" to believe in, right?

Quote:
And there is absolutely no evidence it was "complied by a roman emporor". It was compiled by many clergy who were gathered together in a council that was "sponsored" by constantine (who by the way had contradicting beliefs from the councils conclusion).


It was more than sponsored by him, Constantine in convoking and presiding over the council signaled a measure of imperial control over the church, and thus the masses.

Quote:
If you get your information from places like Tom browns book, prepare to be wrong, alot.


Um, no, I don't, it's called History, and no, I'm not.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7644567 -

"You compare historical narrative to mythology. Don't you realize that
whether you like it or not, thousands and thousands of people were witness to his miracles?? So what if some nonsensical mythology has some miracle that's also found in scripture. Your premise is incorrect."

Right...and YOU were there. It's midrash friend, not history. And when did you ever get the divine right to vouch for thousands of people even in your own lifetime? When? WHEN? YOU know what thousands of people witnessed, two millennia ago? No you don't. You are assuming something based on your blind belief in writings which were not even intended to be accurate. They are MIDRASH - look up the meaning of the word and then try to understand that the writers of these stories were not writing out of modern, scientifically precise or ethically journalistic mentalities. You're completely naive because you are assuming things, and you know what happens when you assume, don't you? You make an ass out of u and me. Your 'faith' is blind, not informed buy reason or insight or experience and therefore your 'faith' is incorrect.

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (11/16/07 06:13 PM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7644656 -

Hey, that was well put.

But of course you know that Fundamentalists are informed directly by (their)God of exactly what the truth is and what they should focus on or believe in the Bible . :crazy2:

Watch out Markos, you are walking on thin Icelander here. You could be headed for the lake of fire.:hellfire: Repent! Shut off your mind and reason and be saved.:sun:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Icelander]
    #7645215 -

I am so disgusted by this medieval pre-Copernican, Geo-centric Fundamentalist mentality. The outward projection of egocentricity is a modern form of Geocentricity, wherein our wonderful little planet (wonderful to us who grew from it! The Earth is our Mother - Her amino acid cooz produced us, no doubt to me, with Divine Directions from Her Divine Consort, GOD) is at the center of ALL of Creation. Cosmic Egocentrism. Geocentrism.

The Earth is probably a drop of Sol, which splashed off and cooled. Every element on the Periodic Table formed from the first element Hydrogen. Atomic Number One. They all came from the One, even on the physical plane. Proton and Electron - positive and negative - the Yang-Yin of physical reality. A medium sized yellow-white star, itself born in some ancient star nursery of countless stars, each one with a possible planetary system and among the numberless 'class M' planets, God-only-knows how many human beings are out there with their own religious histories being argued by God-only-knows how many Markos' and Fundamentalists and wise-cracking Icelanders.

But hey..."Isn't that special?"

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7645406 -

MushroomTrip said:
Accept Jesus Christ as your savior and you're saved! No more comments! :mad2:



If that was indeed a true statement, that is one of the main reasons why Christianity (amongst many other religions) are bad. To believe in something, and to not question, just seems...I don't really know. Blind maybe?

Someone should never stop questioning. The more they ask, the more they'll learn. And since when is learning bad? Always push the limits. Your oppression shall not keep the truth hidden in shadows!!
:psychsplit:


--------------------
"Love is what we are born with. Fear is what we have learned here. The spiritual journey is the unlearning of fear and the acceptance of love back into our hearts."
:hippie:

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: spanky43]
    #7645697 -

I could never joke about something like this :arabs:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7645718 -

:rabidcatdog:
Satan snickers at you.


--------------------
"Love is what we are born with. Fear is what we have learned here. The spiritual journey is the unlearning of fear and the acceptance of love back into our hearts."
:hippie:

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: spanky43]
    #7645741 -

I hope so :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7645810 -

:strokebeard:
word.


--------------------
"Love is what we are born with. Fear is what we have learned here. The spiritual journey is the unlearning of fear and the acceptance of love back into our hearts."
:hippie:

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Middleman]
    #7646395 -

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
This is a partial truth. That british king was only one king in history. There were several revisions before that kings revision.


middleman:

Right, but King James' is the one most Xtians are "authorized" to believe in, right?



Only if you're from England..but no it's really not like it's "authorized" by God for all Christians. It is a very useful book for parallel reading and and comparison,bu it is true that it's got lots of errors. But they can be corrected with study and a concordance. Like i said, it's not about the bible, it's about the final result. I totally agree that God would want Christians to have a perfect bible they can understand, but what I'm saying is, it's not necessary.
Quote:
Quote:
And there is absolutely no evidence it was "complied by a roman emporor". It was compiled by many clergy who were gathered together in a council that was "sponsored" by constantine (who by the way had contradicting beliefs from the councils conclusion).


It was more than sponsored by him, Constantine in convoking and presiding over the council signaled a measure of imperial control over the church, and thus the masses.


Quote:
Constantine was not the decider of the canon, and played in fact no role at all in its assembly; the church at large was the party responsible. The process of canonizing the New Testament was based on a model that had existed for centuries whereby various religions chose a collection of normative sacred books. It is likely that Paul himself began the process by collecting his own letters, or that one of his friends like Luke or Timothy did so. Far from being an arbitrary process, or one decided upon by Constantine much later, the formation of the canon was the result of carefully-weighed choices over time by concerned church officials and members. Later votes on the canon were merely the most definitive steps taken at the end of a long and careful, sometimes difficult, process. Biblical scholar Robert Grant, in The Formation of the New Testament, writes that the New Testament canon was:
...not the product of official assemblies or even of the studies of a few theologians. It reflects and expresses the ideal self-understanding of a whole religious movement which, in spite of temporal, geographical, and even ideological differences, could finally be united in accepting these 27 diverse documents as expressing the meaning of God's revelation in Jesus Christ and to his church. [18]

To claim that Constantine was behind the canon, or was responsible for destroying Gospels he did not approve of, is a ludicrous distortion of history. In fact, Constantine convened the Council at Nicea, paid the travel expenses of those who attended, and provided his summer lake palace for the site, but he had no ecclesiastical authority at all. The information we have on the Council is fascinating and in no way supports the idea of a pagan Roman’s overthrow of “early Christianity” or any conspiracy. A good introduction to the facts about the Council is available in the Summer 1996 issue of Christian History magazine, “Heresy in the Early Church,” at http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/51h/ .


edit:

I must add that I do believe there was a conspiracy, but not the kind this article is referring to. It was rather paganism that had taken over the roman catholic church, and turned it into a veiled system of
adoltary.

Edited by jonathan_206 (11/17/07 12:21 AM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7646517 -

Tchan909 said:
A lot of people can't seem to understand that in spite of the YHWH's omnipotence and infinite goodness, He doesn't want life to be easy for His children. He wants them to learn for themselves. Would He really be infinitely good if he coddled us and spoiled us, like an entire species of little Paris Hiltons? He tried that with the garden of Eden, and it didn't work. What kind of divine father would He be if He didn't let us learn our lessons for ourselves?

Some sects of Gnosticism view YHWH as a mad scientist. I think this view holds up well, as it seems most of His interactions with humans amount to tests. Will you eat the apple? Will Job worship me even if I shit on him? Will they listen to Jesus, a man who symbolically gives his life for the redemption of humanity? Will they still be able to interpret the meat of the Bible when half of its contents are proven wrong or become functionally obsolete when taken literally? I'm on the edge of my seat here, and I'm sure God is too.


Just because God gives us next to nothing doesn't mean he would have to give us everything and spoil us if he decided to give to give us anything. Nobody can say for sure how God would think, so some will completely ignore this next question but if you were god wouldn't you stop useless suffering? I mean if God can create reality anyway he sees fits he'd then have the power to enlighten man with a strong will to love and if that happened its hard to deny that the world would be a better place.

But people say what moral significance does anything have if god just GIVES us enlightenment and we don't learn anything for ourselves? Most people that make the world a bad place know why it's wrong to do those things but they do them anyway, many people know that it isn;t right or morally just to kill, rape, steal ect. most DO realize the moral significance of being good. So why couldn't God then enlighten man who's discovered being good moral signifigance? He'd be doind mankind a large favor by this but he pretty much does nothing. For all WE know he just sits back with all his infinite power and wisdom and lets anything and everything happen and leaves one and only one poorly written, superstitious and very inaccurate book as proof, yeah right.

Edited by Isaac (11/17/07 02:09 AM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7647493 -

Quote:
So why couldn't God then enlighten man who's discovered being good moral signifigance?


He does enlighten people who truly seek after him, unfortunately, there are very few of those people.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7647672 -

jonathan_206 said:
Quote:
So why couldn't God then enlighten man who's discovered being good moral signifigance?


He does enlighten people who truly seek after him, unfortunately, there are very few of those people.


There are people that worship god that are FAR from enlightened buddy.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7648222 -

Quote:
Right...and YOU were there. It's midrash friend, not history.


The Torah predates midrash by many hundreds of years. The midrash is not part of the Torah. the Seven Midroth attributed to Rabbi Hillel, come from a school of thought of pharisetical interpretation that Jesus repudiated.

if there has been a diminution of attention to Jewish culture, traditions, or hermeneutic principles, the "fault" can be laid to the charge of Jesus and Paul. Jesus said:

(Mat 23:38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Would you think from this statement of Christ, that He was advocating that we should look to the Pharisees for instruction in the Faith?

Paul, in his epistle to the Galatians, discredited the Judaizers, and furthermore leveled a curse against them or anyone who preached any Gospel that was different from the Gospel that he preached. Paul even rebuked Peter for being a respecter of persons in his Jewish sympathies (Gal. 2:11-18). And again:

(Rom 10:1-2) Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. {2} For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

No, not once do we read that Jesus or any of the apostles recommend that we resort to the traditions of the first century Jews for training in biblical interpretation or righteousness. Jesus, Himself, denounced the Pharisees' handling of the Scriptures, and said that they were guilty of:

(Mark 7:13) Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Quote:
Right...and YOU were there.


What kind of a statement is this, from someone who calls himself elder and wishes to hold historical criticisms of Christianity. There is heavy evidence that these miracles took place.. the pharisees did not deny them themselves. There's external evidence, secondary and tertiary sources, it's not like we can't look at the historical situation at the time from evidence besides the bible, though It won't help you in you departure from scripture. Did the Jews ever write a popular in depth rebuttal of Jesus' miracles or doctrine? Remember the reason the pharisees took him by night and didn't try to attack him in public was because they knew the people respected him as a prophet, and they would likely stone them.

Consider that Jesus in the eyes of the religious authority in Israel at that time had broken laws, and normally they would have prosecuted such a person.


Quote:
It's midrash friend, not history.



No, the law and the prophets is not midrash the n.t. is not midrash, and the midrash did not even begin it's written history until the second century.


Quote:
And when did you ever get the divine right to vouch for thousands of people even in your own lifetime? When? WHEN? YOU know what thousands of people witnessed, two millennia ago? No you don't.


Yes I do. I don't speak for history, I intend to let history speak for itself.

Quote:
You are assuming something based on your blind belief in writings which were not even intended to be accurate. They are MIDRASH - look up the meaning of the word and then try to understand that the writers of these stories were not writing out of modern, scientifically precise or ethically journalistic mentalities. You're completely naive because you are assuming things, and you know what happens when you assume, don't you? You make an lalala out of u and me. Your 'faith' is blind, not informed buy reason or insight or experience and therefore your 'faith' is incorrect.


No, when we read scripture we must allow scripture to speak for itself. If the scripture needs a different interpretation, it will ask for one. We have to start with basic common sense methods of interpretation. There is no authorical reason why we are required to read the midrash with the torah or the n.t.

The fact is that there are expositions in Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews that instruct us directly in the principles of Biblical interpretation, giving us examples of the significance of symbols and allegory.

The rules of interpretation of Scripture are self-evident: Before you start looking for other incidental meanings and applications, you begin by receiving the plain conveyance of the words according to all the normal rules of definition and grammar, which include the universal rhetorical devices of metaphor, allegory, simile, symbol, type, and etc. If the text asks for historical references it will do it on it's own. But we must not go begging the question.

It's outrageous how people will apply these rediculous rules of interpretation to the bible, but to nothing else. It is a book that is written in the style of historical narrative. It's been that way for thousands of years! It hasn't changed. ANd what does a person with no preconceived concepts and schools of thought, when they take a look at the bible, how does it look to be written? Historical narrative!

What's disgusting is how anyone would have the audacity to inform me I must depart from the plain language of scripture and use an external, non authorized system of interpretation, which in the period it was written, there were conflicting sects in Israel,with new groups forming regularly, and which was a hebrew system of interpretation, and I am informed I must apply this to the n.t. which was written in greek.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7650308 -

"There is heavy evidence that these miracles took place..."

This statement defines the depth of delusory thinking. It is not grounded in your experience, it is a statement based upon an irrational assumption which is no doubt taken to be faith.

"What's disgusting is how anyone would have the audacity to inform me..."

This statement amply defines the inflationary ego of one who imagines that he has great spiritual authority. The use of the word "audacity" is the choice of an ego which feels challenged by another ego because the person is so identified with his egoic-mind, to wit, his 'thoughts.' It also places itself above "anyone," which is to say, that egoic-mind's inflationary state is expression superiority over "anyone."

These two terse statements are more than sufficient to render the poster's entire communication useless in any meaningful, mutually respecting communication. It is not a communication of divergent religious opinion, it is a veritable temper tantrum with inflationary condescension:

"What kind of a statement is this, from someone who calls himself elder and wishes to hold historical criticisms of Christianity."

I call myself an elder by virtue of my chronological years on the planet which obviously exceeds your own by many. As an elder I have had more time, under a variety of trying inner and outer circumstances of life, to come to certain conclusions. I was once taken in by the massive delusion from which humanity suffers, as you still are. I have Awakened from the delusion that mythological and midrashic embellishments were somehow miraculous historical events. Hopefully you too will awaken from the hazy twilight world of unconscious hopes and fears which calls itself 'faith,' and a new adult version of faith will emerge from a mere mental condition of wish-fulfillment. No friend, the graves were not thrown open, and reanimated corpses did not walk again on Earth when Iesus died on a Roman cross. And btw, THIS little passage really overtakes the 'unique' importance of the Easter [Ishtar] Sunday Resurrection in the flesh, if only by shear numbers of Resurrected humans. Resurrection might be illustrated thusly, but it remains a metaphor for THE Transcendental Mystery of Eternal Life, not a grotesquely crude literal event and the inspiration for film maker George A. Romero!

“Behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks were split; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints that slept were raised; and came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." - Matthew 27:51

I'm sorry for you if you live your life believing writings like this as being historical, but Matthew 27:51 (for example), is not an historical event, and if you can not assertain this then your reality testing is severely compromized. It is midrash, or it is visionary or it is a public relations attempt by the gospel writer to win more converts, but it is not recorded history. Neither are the theophanies of the Old Testament: pillars of smoke and fire, parting of the Red Sea as Cecil B. Demille created it with Charleton Heston as Moses.

I am not interested in arguing with you or with anyone whose mind has confused midrash/mthos with historicity. I have been where you are and have matured into an elder human being. Losts of people do not mature, they just get older and retain the same inner development of youth. You still require 'supernatural events' in your mind in order to support your faith in God. I do not. Everyday existence, in the face of non-existence, is miraculous. You do not live in the Present, you live in your thoughts about a magickal past and a magickal future.
I hold to a 'Fully Realized Eschatology,' and you hold to a 'Partially Realized Eschatology,' with a fulfillment to occur at some unknown point in future history with all the 'movements' of spiritual life manifesting as historical events (Second Coming, Rapture, Judgement, etc.). I do not hold to these processes as referring to physical reality.

I therefore subscribe to a Gnostic Christianity, a Christianity which is making a comeback after its suppression for two millennia, along with its egalitarian treatment of women and its tolerance for other religious traditions. This is possible because Gnostic Christians identify with Being [Spirit] and not with Mind [Psyche] which is comprised of our sensations, emotions and thoughts, and thoughts are not the basis of Salvation (Illumination, Enlightenment) so it matters little what one 'thinks' (believes). What matters is that one's Awareness of Awareness produces a Compassionate and therefore a tolerant and peace-loving human being regardless of the mere scaffolding of beliefs which the spiritually immature require in the building of life of faith. Gnostic Christianity is a mystical spirituality which recognizes Being [Spirit, God] in other human beings, not only those who wear the same 'thinking cap' as we do. God, friend, is not Christian and Gnostic Christians do not 'believe' that beliefs are a vessel for containing Ultimate Truth. If anything, beliefs are a cage which hold partial truths and worship of those partial truths is idolatry and a false god. Worship thoughts, which is what beliefs are, and you worship an idol.

This then is my position. It applies to my own occasional idolatry which I must become aware of and scrape like an encrustation from the Pearl of Pure Being (the Biblical metaphor is "a pearl of great price" - metaphor). This is the Gnostic interpretation of who Iesus was and what He taught based more on personal spiritual experience than upon the written words of 1st century PR men for Christianity (and not for the Reality which is Christ). I have no interest in converting you, I am only interested in helping someone who requests my help in explaining an alternative and transforming vision of Christianity.

Clearly, mainstream Christianity has done little good and much harm across the centuries. Even today, a bigot in the White House under the guise of being a Christian is the provebial wolf in sheep's clothing, deceiving all the other bigots in the USA and evoking a world-wide hatred that will lead us to Armageddon. Now THERE is one historical event that will earn the Biblical name!
THERE is will I will agree with the historical outcome of fundamentalistic bigotry resulting in the Four Riders of the Apocalypse: Chemical, Biological, Radiological and Thermonuclear death to us all. All in the Name of God.

Respond if you wish, but I have little inclination to engage with you in any further dialogue on whose Iesus is the more Realistic, or better yet, on which of us has a better grasp on Reality.

+++ Shalom +++

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (11/18/07 09:16 AM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7650322 -

This statement defines the depth of delusory thinking. It is not grounded in your experience, it is a statement based upon an irrational assumption which is no doubt taken to be faith.

So true.

"What's disgusting is how anyone would have the audacity to inform me..."

nothing can inform a closed mind.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7651057 -

jonathan_206 said:
If the scripture needs a different interpretation, it will ask for one.


Ever heard of Kabbalah?

I don't understand why fanatical adherence to the literal truth of the Bible is so important to you guys. Can't you understand that every religion has its politics, perhaps none moreso than Christianity and that the book you are reading has been influenced by a million different people and a million different agendas? It's a book, which was either given to you by another person or purchased in a bookstore(!), not a meteor from the sky with an inscription on it.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7653397 -

The truth is Christianity derived from Pagan origins not from God but try telling that to somebody who's already made up their mind.

http://www.pocm.info/getting_started_pocm.html

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7653567 -

To all the mockers, scoffers, and false religionists you had better hope that scripture is a lie for if it is true:

2Th 1:7-10
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: fivepointer]
    #7653570 -

I don't have to hope, I KNOW the bible is a lie, I could prove it in court.


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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Middleman]
    #7653627 -

You have rejected the truth so you are calling God a liar. Those who have not a love of the truth shall perish.

2Th 2:10-12
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: fivepointer]
    #7653692 -

The Mormons have a lot of verses too. Their book is more accurate than the one you are quoting, so grow up and deal with it. :razz:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: fivepointer]
    #7654069 -

fivepointer said:
To all the mockers, scoffers, and false religionists you had better hope that scripture is a lie for if it is true:

2Th 1:7-10
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


Who cares? We're doomed anyway, since you are the only true Christian who is uniquely qualified to interpret scripture. Heaven's got to be lonely, with you being the only one there and all.


--------------------

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7654118 -

MushroomTrip said:
Accept Jesus Christ as your savior and you're saved! No more comments! :mad2:


its not that cut and dry. might work for you mushroom trip, but giving that advice to others is bad advise because theres much more to being 'saved' than just accepting jesus christ as your savior by Christian standards, or biblical standards for that matter. I believe those kinds of statements sets others up for a large personal struggles and possibly years of unhappiness because of these inaccuracies.


If you want to be a christian, fine, my best wishes; but dont push it on others, otherwise you're as bad as those extremist muslims imo, who think they're doing the right thing by forcing their religion down others throats.


--------------------
notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: fivepointer]
    #7654131 -

fivepointer said:
To all the mockers, scoffers, and false religionists you had better hope that scripture is a lie for if it is true:

2Th 1:7-10
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.



fear is an effective means to achieve conformity


--------------------
notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Middleman]
    #7654138 -

Middleman said:
I don't have to hope, I KNOW the bible is a lie, I could prove it in court.




How could you disprove the bible? I would honestly love to love to hear every piece of evidence you have that would help to disprove the scriptures.


--------------------
notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Silversoul]
    #7654288 -

I hate it when Christians don't understand that telling people they're going to burn in hellfire for all eternity for having their own opinions isn't really conducive to rational discussion.

The whole idea of hell is ridiculous and contradictory, it was obviously made up to scare people into joining a religion. God's love is so infinite He'd punish His disobedient children infinitely? What the fuck? I really hope that doesn't make sense to you.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/19/07 11:30 AM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: fivepointer]
    #7654725 -

To all the mockers, scoffers, and false religionists you had better hope that scripture is a lie for if it is true:

Actually pointer my bro. I hope it is true. I have kind of a slow metabolism and get cold easily. Snuggling down into a cozy lake of fire sounds so good on this cold rainy day. Yum.:hellfire: Plus having the absence of God would be a big plus also.:thumbup:

Edited by Icelander (11/19/07 01:18 PM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Mickalopagus]
    #7654814 -

Ok, have it your way.
But I'm telling you, that nigger won't help you unless you beg. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7655301 -

I personally am pretty ignorant to the writings in the bible being that I was raised an atheist. With that said, I believe that the bible is the best way that scholars of that day could express the ideas given to them.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: BirdsIView]
    #7655353 -

what ideas? All ideas?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7655576 -

MushroomTrip said:
Ok, have it your way.
But I'm telling you, that nigger won't help you unless you beg. :shrug:


I dont understand, what do you mean by that?


--------------------
notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Mickalopagus]
    #7655780 -

Hmm is was a slight form of sarcasm towards those beliefs. I never expected for someone to take my first comment as being serious :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: fivepointer]
    #7655908 -

fivepointer said:
You have rejected the truth so you are calling God a liar.



No. I have rejected a lie, and I am calling the Bible a liar.

As Markos says, Biblical infallibility is Idolatry.

fivepointer said:
2Th 2:10-12
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Is it not possible that this passage refers to Xtians such as yourself?

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Icelander]
    #7656529 -

Are you trying to fight fire with fire?

Careful in your debate with a delusional thinker (one on my ignore list). Delusional ideas, apparently by their abnormally persistent rigidity (when nothing in the universe is actually rigid), seems to work like some demonic psychic black hole and draws others into attacking the persistent delusion. The delusional thinker takes some kind of sustanence from these attacks. It is another example of a person who lives in and for the Tollean "Pain Body." :onfire:
The language is all about pain, but not the delusional's pain (which he is clearly in since joyful people do not spit venom). It is nevertheless all about pain and the "Pain Body" which is projected onto everyone who does not partake of this folie a plusieurs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_a_deux

Moreover, the "Pain Body" in the Hell fire/Lake of Fire Biblical metaphors are magnified to an eternal condition.  Fundies however, are not sufficiently sophisticated philosophically to understand that eternity does not mean 'endless duration of time.' In fact, when probed, Fundamentalists will say that God 'created' Hell, which means by definition that there is a time when Hell was not, and it cannot therefore be eternal. Eternal duration, even if there could be such a thing in an expanding universe with a point of origin (and a point of contraction perhaps), must necessarily extend past and future, not a line segment which begins at the point of creation. Creation and eternality are two different orders of existence. Making Hell eternal would somehow lend the nature of eternal God to Hell. Some Christian metaphysicians have suggested that the Light of God and the Fire of Hell are the same (like those unprepared to enter the Clear Light of the Void in Buddhism), the only difference being the preparedness of the being entering the Holy Conflagration. To the ego, which dies, it is pain but to the Pure Consciousness, it is the recognition of one's Union with one's own Eternal Nature (God).

I suppose simple dismissal on my part is the lazy approach, but I'd rather deconstruct the weak mental constructs than simply ridicule the delusional person. The problem with religious delusions is their containment of the inflated superiority complex of the delusional. Letting go of the delusion means a rapid deflation of the inflated self-righteous ego with its corresponding sense of specialness before God. The unbearable doubts about God's existence in individuals like this would put your own agnostic doubts to shame. It is my contention that all of this condemnation on the part of Fundamentalists is a tremendous over-compensation for doubts that comprise the Fundamentalist's own psychological Hell.

Arguing with those who differ in understanding strengthens the 'containment field' of this inferiority complex. The 'field' is the protective sphere of woven Biblical verses with which the delusional comes to identify with (the sueriority complex). The identity of the Fundamentalist becomes this (superiority) shell, protecting a very fearful inferiority-ridden person. It is the big-headed fear-inducing Wizard of Oz illusion, when the real person is a scared little man hiding behind a curtained booth pulling the levers of scriptural condemnation with smoke and thunderings and plumes of flame. Very awe-inspiring to a child.

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (11/20/07 05:42 AM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7656664 -

More useless psycho-babble from the master of heterodoxy. The problem with the "Gnostic" gospel is it can not be reconciled with scripture. Gnostics reject sola scriptura and infallibility of scripture, the Trinity, original sin, the power of the Holy Spirit, eternal punishment, the Deity and even existence of Jesus Christ. They are not Christians.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: fivepointer]
    #7656704 -

fivepointer said:
They are not Christians.


Nor is anyone who questions the infallible interpretation of fivepointer. :bow:


--------------------

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: fivepointer]
    #7657699 -

fivepointer said:
The problem with the "Gnostic" gospel is it can not be reconciled with scripture.


It cannot be reconciled with an inane, childish and ancient interpretation of scripture.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: fivepointer]
    #7657874 -

fivepointer said:
More useless psycho-babble from the master of heterodoxy. The problem with the "Gnostic" gospel is it can not be reconciled with scripture. Gnostics reject sola scriptura and infallibility of scripture, the Trinity, original sin, the power of the Holy Spirit, eternal punishment, the Deity and even existence of Jesus Christ. They are not Christians.


I agree with Markos, he's smart and stuff.

But I'd like to throw a few more words at your brick wall anyway.

The Essenes practiced Christianity before Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus is the Anti-Christ, imo.
The violence committed by The Roman Church throughout history and the behavior of modern fundamentalists proves this to be true.

I mean would the true Godchild's emblem really be a dead guy hanging on a tree? No, THAT is the "abomination that causes desolation" imo.

Many Gnostics have understood this:

"In its mystical sense, the Egyptian cross owes its origin, as an emblem, to the realization by the earliest philosophy of an androgynous dualism of every manifestation in nature, which proceeds from the abstract ideal of a likewise androgynous deity, while the Christian emblem is simply due to chance. Had the Mosaic law prevailed, Jesus should have been lapidated. The crucifix was an instrument of torture, and utterly common among Romans as it was unknown among Semitic nations. It was called the "Tree of Infamy." It is but later that it was adopted as a Christian symbol; but, during the first two decades, the apostles looked upon it with horror. It is certainly not the Christian Cross that John had in mind when speaking of the "signet of the living God," but the mystic Tau -- the Tetragrammaton, or mighty name, which, on the most ancient kabalistic talismans, was represented by the four Hebrew letters composing the Holy Word." H.P. Blavatsky's Isis Unveiled

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Middleman]
    #7658387 -

Quote:
Jesus is the Anti-Christ, imo.


:what:


--------------------

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7658395 -

Careful in your debate with a delusional thinker (one on my ignore list).

I was just having fun with him is all.

but I'd rather deconstruct the weak mental constructs than simply ridicule the delusional person.

I went the deconstruct route many times with this poster. So I paid my dues and now it's time to relax and have some fun.

I agree with your assessment of the posters mental/emotional state.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7658600 -

MushroomTrip said:
Hmm is was a slight form of sarcasm towards those beliefs. I never expected for someone to take my first comment as being serious :lol:


dr teasy thighs.. teehee i like that name


--------------------
notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Middleman]
    #7658715 -

Middleman said:
fivepointer said:
More useless psycho-babble from the master of heterodoxy.  The problem with the "Gnostic" gospel is it can not be reconciled with scripture.  Gnostics reject sola scriptura and infallibility of scripture, the Trinity, original sin, the power of the Holy Spirit, eternal punishment, the Deity and even existence of Jesus Christ.  They are not Christians.


I agree with Markos, he's smart and stuff.

But I'd like to throw a few more words at your brick wall anyway.

The Essenes practiced Christianity before Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus is the Anti-Christ, imo.
The violence committed by The Roman Church throughout history and the behavior of modern fundamentalists proves this to be true.

I mean would the true Godchild's emblem really be a dead guy hanging on a tree? No, THAT is the "abomination that causes desolation" imo.

Many Gnostics have understood this:

"In its mystical sense, the Egyptian cross owes its origin, as an emblem, to the realization by the earliest philosophy of an androgynous dualism of every manifestation in nature, which proceeds from the abstract ideal of a likewise androgynous deity, while the Christian emblem is simply due to chance. Had the Mosaic law prevailed, Jesus should have been lapidated. The crucifix was an instrument of torture, and utterly common among Romans as it was unknown among Semitic nations. It was called the "Tree of Infamy." It is but later that it was adopted as a Christian symbol; but, during the first two decades, the apostles looked upon it with horror. It is certainly not the Christian Cross that John had in mind when speaking of the "signet of the living God," but the mystic Tau -- the Tetragrammaton, or mighty name, which, on the most ancient kabalistic talismans, was represented by the four Hebrew letters composing the Holy Word." H.P. Blavatsky's Isis Unveiled


Now, if all of you really knew the bible, you would see everything with such clarity. Here is a brief summary, with all you need to understand:

In the beginning, which occurred near the start, there was nothing but God, darkness, and some gas. The Bible says, "The Lord thy God is one,"
But I think He must be a lot older than that.  Anyway, God said, "Give me a light!" and someone did.  Then God made the world.

He split the Adam and made Eve. Adam and Eve were naked, but they weren't embarrassed because mirrors hadn't been invented yet. Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating one bad apple, so they were driven from the Garden of Eden.  Not sure what they were driven in though, because they didn't have cars.

Adam and Eve had a son, Cain, who hated his brother as long as he was Abel.  Pretty soon all of the early people died off, except for
Methuselah, who lived to be like a million or something.

One of the next important people was Noah, who was a good guy, but one of his kids was kind of a ham.  Noah built a large boat and put his family and some animals on it.  He asked some other people to join him, but they said they would have to take a rain check.

After Noah came Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  Jacob was more famous than his brother, Esau, because Esau sold Jacob his birthmark in exchange for some pot roast.  Jacob had a son named Joseph who wore a really loud sports coat.

Another important Bible guy is Moses, whose real name was Charlton Heston.  Moses led the Israel Lights out of Egypt and away from the evil Pharaoh after God sent ten plagues on Pharaoh's people.  These plagues included frogs, mice, lice, bowels, and no cable.  God fed the Israel Lights every day with manicotti. Then He gave them His top ten Commandments. These include don't lie, cheat, smoke, dance, or covet your neighbor's bottom (the Bible uses a bad word for bottom that I'm not supposed to say.  But my Dad uses it sometimes when he talks about the President).  Oh, yeah, I just thought of one more:  Humor they father and they mother.

One of Moses' best helpers was Joshua who was the first Bible guy to use spies.  Joshua fought the battle of Geritol and the fence fell over on the town.

After Joshua came David.  He got to be king by killing a giant with a slingshot.  He had a son named Solomon who had about 300 wives and 500 Porcupines.  My teacher says he was wise, but that doesn't sound very wise to me.  After Solomon there were a bunch of major league prophets.  One of these was Jonah, who was swallowed by a big whale and then barfed up on the shore.

There were also some minor league prophets, but I guess we don't have to worry about them.

After the Old Testament came the New Testament.  Jesus is the star of the New Testament.  He was born in Bethlehem in a barn.  (I wish I had been born in a barn, too, because my mom is always saying to me, "Close the door! Were you born in a barn?"  It would be nice to say, "As a matter of fact, I was.")

During His life, Jesus had many arguments with sinners like the
Pharisees and the Republicans.  Jesus also had twelve opossums. The worst one was Judas Asparagus.  Judas was so evil that they named a terrible vegetable after him.
Jesus was a great man.  He healed many leopards and even preached to some Germans on the Mount.  But the Republicans and all those guys put Jesus on trial before Pontius the Pilot.  Pilot didn't stick up for Jesus.  He just washed his hands instead.

Anyways, Jesus died for our sins, then came back to life again.  He went up to Heaven but will be back at the end of the Aluminum.  His return is foretold in the book of Revolution.  :lol:    :headbang:

Get the point?


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: hummermania00]
    #7658827 -

God, darkness, and some gas.

So God IS responsible for the big bang. The old fart.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Icelander]
    #7658840 -

Icelander said:
God, darkness, and some gas.

So God IS responsible for the big bang. The old fart.:thumbup:


And just think, several hundred years from now that comment could well be believed and quoted as fact!


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7659209 -

>>>>Eternal duration, even if there could be such a thing in an expanding universe with a point of origin (and a point of contraction perhaps), must necessarily extend past and future, not a line segment which begins at the point of creation. Creation and eternality are two different orders of existence.

I'm curious what you think about the work of Georg Cantor. He popularized the idea that some infinities are larger than others. He went crazy putting it down on paper, but it's an interesting idea none the less.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Rahz]
    #7659309 -

Gotta link?

Personally, I used to like 'seeing infinity' in the barber chair with mirrors fore and aft when I was a kid.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7659372 -

Georg Cantor

This also brings to mind Zeno's Paradox.

Not that I agree with a dogmatic hell of course. Just something interesting, though perhaps it has something to do with "eternal torment".


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: hummermania00]
    #7659444 -

I ignore fivepointer, but I am oddly pleased by his 'almost accurate' description of Gnostic Christianity, not to mention his generous use of the title "master of heterodoxy." Orthodoxy never made this world a better place, neither has it transformed the multitudes of superstitious people who have called themselves Christians. Orthodoxy is responsible for the interpretations of scriptural writ behind the antisemitism and corresponding pogroms, expulsions and ethnic cleansings of Jews throughout Christian history, while appropriating the Jewish mendicant peasant-teacher Iesus as their own Savior. This includes Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant forms of Christianity. Martin Luther was a notorious antisemite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies

Orthodoxy is behind the so-called Holy Inquisition which tortured countless men, women and children in Name of gentle Jesus!:

2.1 Medieval Inquisition
2.2 Spanish Inquisition
2.3 Portuguese Inquisition
2.4 Roman Inquisition


Orthodoxy is behind the various Crusades:

2.1 First Crusade 1095-1099
2.1.1 Crusade of 1101
2.2 Second Crusade 1147–1149
2.3 Third Crusade 1187–1192
2.4 Fourth Crusade 1200–1204
2.5 Albigensian Crusade
2.6 Children's Crusade
2.7 Fifth Crusade 1217–1221
2.8 Sixth Crusade 1228–1229
2.9 Seventh Crusade 1248–1254
2.10 Eighth Crusade 1270
2.11 Ninth Crusade 1271–1272
2.12 Northern Crusades (Baltic and Germany)
2.13 Other crusades
2.13.1 Crusade against the Tartars
2.13.2 Crusades in the Balkans
2.13.3 Aragonese Crusade
2.13.4 Alexandrian Crusade
2.13.5 Hussite Crusade
2.13.6 Swedish Crusades

And Orthodoxy was behind the witch-hunts, called by Pagan peoples "The Burning Times," which spanned some 250 years and tortured to death tens of thousand of people, again, in the name of Christ while rationalizing those actions from certain passages in the Old Testament (Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Samuel).

Orthodoxy is responsible NOT for bringing the Kingdom of Heaven to historical manifestation as the literalists of Biblical prophesy still insanely expound, but rather Orthodoxy has manifested a proverbial Hell on Earth through the above-named atrocities against humankind.

Methinks a certain individual has confused the "Tower of Babel" with "psycho-babble," since the word babble apparently derives from a mythic incident wherein people ceased understanding a common language - much like Fundamentalists ceased understanding common sense. Babel is a mythic event symbolizing the error of seeking a physical Heaven, the result of which was chaos and lack of comprehension. Fundamentalism is a historical event where mental chaos and lack of comprehension still seeks a physical Heaven and considers a physical book to be God, instead of considering God alone to be God.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Rahz]
    #7659465 -

Thanks. Zeno - I can get the paradox, but in following Cantor's link to related topics, I bumped my head on my conceptual ceiling, since I am unfortunately not a numbers person! Transinfinite and transcendental numbers would no doubt have to be explained to me.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7659496 -

Well, I'm not really a numbers person either, but basically:

There is an infinity between 1 and 2. There is an infinity between 1 and 3 that is larger than the infinity between 1 and 2.

So, from now until forever would be an infinity, but not as big an infinity as all of time, if there were no beginning or end.

I think eternal hell is an experience strictly limited to those still breathing. "It will always be like this" is an expression of fractal infinity.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Rahz]
    #7660022 -

I do not qualify Infinity. The infinitesimally small and the infinitely large are both equally Infinity or the 'infinite value' of the word Infinity is lost. I see Infinity as encompassing and neutralizing all opposites in formlessness. Even infinite variation or infinite multiplicity belongs to the one set which is Infinity as far as I can determine intuitively.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7663256 -

If you knew the truth about history markos and middleman you would know that the power behind the catholic church and the crucifix is the same power behind your religion markos.

Middleman, how can you say those things after I clearly pointed out that the catholic church is the antichrist. Do you think what Jesus taught inspires people to do horrible things like the catholic church did? He tought peace, loving your neighbor, forgiveness, innocence, nonviolence, truth. The catholic church does not fit with his teachings. So take a look and see why it doesn't fit. It's because he catholic church was never christian.

I just become so sick of talking with people sometimes. Just so many lies. Sometimes I'm tempted to throw my hands up and just let them lie in their pit of darkness. It's not like you can't find the truth out their if you look. But I love you guys, and I hope someday you'll all love me too.

If you are confused, remember that the devil is the author if confusion.

The truth is real, it is reasonable, and it is a true and living way, because God is true and living and reasonable.

I have nothing to do with five pointer and I'm not like him so please don't anyone lump me in with him.

mickdawg:

Quote:
fear is an effective means to achieve conformity


It sure is and there's nothing wrong with that. Scripture is plain and clear in teaching that godly fear is the beginning of wisdom. It is a wise idea to fear him. And yes the goal is conformity, conforming to the image of Christ.And there's nothing wrong with that either.

Conformity itself is not wrong. That is propoganda that people have been brainwashed with. You yourself conform to "unconformity". Fear is not wrong either. It's the type of fear and for what purpose that makes the difference.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7663574 -

"If you knew the truth about history markos and middleman you would know that the power behind the catholic church and the crucifix is the same power behind your religion markos."

Sticks-and-stones John-boy. More inflationary self-righteousness. Truth is what I serve, no need to childishly tell me that MY God is a bad God called the Devil, while YOUR God is the nice sweet God of Iesus, who is a great big fatherly bearded-guy-in-the-sky who loves John-boy but hates the sins of everyone who doesn't see God the same way that John-boy does. Delusions are excusable but rudeness is never called for. Through your inflated self-righteous indignation you have reduced yourself to a name-caller.

You are in no wise competent to conduct a theological debate in matters you know little or nothing about. I recommend that mature in your understanding and humility (if capable) before you attempt to make this forum your pulpit. You are entitled to practice your version of religion under the Constitution of the United States, but religious bigotry such as you also practice, while also protected under Constitutional Freedom of Speech, has no place in any Philosophy and Spirituality forum IMO.

BTW, I practice no religion. 'In God I live and move and have my being.' I have written this many times and it is how I perceive one who is 'in Christ,' to use Pauline language. It is the experience of early, pre-Nicean Christians who were untainted by a canon fixed by a repressive totalitarian regime. Your condemning and joyless expression of religion does not manifest any living expression of Christ to me, it appears only as anger resulting from the rejection of your personal beliefs peppered with Bible verses. If you cannot stand to learn about alternative interpretations of Bible verses, then you are not established in faith, you are suffering from the life-stultifying rigidity which you are holding onto so tenaciously. Hey, we all need a life-raft in this Ocean of Existence, but I'M not trying to torpedo yours. Hammer out your own salvation. You've got spiritual and psychological problems enough of your own and since you're not in any position to HELP me with mine, what do you suppose your motive is for saying anything at all?

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7663677 -

Quote:
Sticks-and-stones John-boy. More inflationary self-righteousness. Truth is what I serve, no need to childishly tell me that MY God is a bad God called the Devil, while YOUR God is the nice sweet God of Iesus, who is a great big fatherly bearded-guy-in-the-sky who loves John-boy but hates the sins of everyone who doesn't see God the same way that John-boy does. Delusions are excusable but rudeness is never called for. Through your inflated self-righteous indignation you have reduced yourself to a name-caller.


I'm not name calling. I'm serious. The babylonian mystery religion that helped form the rcc is the same power behind your religion. You just don't know it. You're carrying their sign with you in your "avatar".

Quote:
You are in no wise competent to conduct a theological debate in matters you know little or nothing about. I recommend that mature in your understanding and humility (if capable) before you attempt to make this forum your pulpit. You are entitled to practice your version of religion under the Constitution of the United States, but religious bigotry such as you also practice, while also protected under Constitutional Freedom of Speech, has no place in any Philosophy and Spirituality forum IMO.


Why am I not competent? Because I don't speak in long winded discourses with lack of substance like you do? The kingdom of God is not in words, but in power. I see no power in your "gospel". I'm not a bigot. I'm not here to condemn you or personally and maliciously attack you. I'm here to save, and to proclaim the truth.


Quote:
BTW, I practice no religion. 'In God I live and move and have my being.' I have written this many times and it is how I perceive one who is 'in Christ,' to use Pauline language. It is the experience of early, pre-Nicean Christians who were untainted by a canon fixed by a repressive totalitarian regime. Your condemning and joyless expression of religion does not manifest any living expression of Christ to me, it appears only as anger resulting from the rejection of your personal beliefs peppered with Bible verses. If you cannot stand to learn about alternative interpretations of Bible verses, then you are not established in faith, you are suffering from the life-stultifying rigidity which you are holding onto so tenaciously. Hey, we all need a life-raft in this Ocean of Existence, but I'M not trying to torpedo yours. Hammer out your own salvation. You've got spiritual and psychological problems enough of your own and since you're not in any position to HELP me with mine, what do you suppose your motive is for saying anything at all?



Gnosticism does fall under the term religion. You say it was some sort of conspiracy at nicea, but the n.t. fits with the o.t. perfectly. Gnosticism does not. If you wish to say there was a council at nicea, you'll have to show proof of a conspiracy from a lot further back then that. You can say it's midrash all you want, but even if it was, gnosticism still doesn't fit the o.t.

The truth is the truth, and there is no other. I will hold that "narrow" and "rigid" truth and stand on that solid rock in Christ. What's my psychological problems? I'm not trying to torpedo you at all. I'm just here, speaking where I feel is right to speak, whether for or against.

My motive is to save yours and others souls from a very real and deserved punishment. Can you consider an almighty God who is immaculately just and perfect in love whose presence spans eternity? Who is eternity?.. Can you imagine yourself standing in his presence, as you are overcome by his brightness and majesty? This is the God I stand for, and it's not just words, it's power.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7663711 -

Quote:
My motive is to save yours and others souls from a very real and deserved punishment. Can you consider an almighty God who is immaculately just and perfect in love whose presence spans eternity? Who is eternity?.. Can you imagine yourself standing in his presence, as you are overcome by his brightness and majesty? This is the God I stand for, and it's not just words, it's power.


With all the respect, fuck your god :razz:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7663785 -

"A God who is just and perfect in love," who will damn you to an eternity of agony, roasting in the fires of hell if you do not accept him as your Lord and Savior? 

:rofl:  :rofl2:

It would be truly funny if it wasn't so very ignorant and sad.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Veritas]
    #7663810 -

Just bow before my avatar. :satan: All we do is have one helluva good time.

Dogma-free sex, drugs & rock & roll, baby! No pesky rules. I don't even require weekly worship services.


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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7664526 -

Forget all these false saviors. All hail Bob!



Guaranteed salvation or triple your money back!


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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7665118 -

Long winded I can be, but 'without substance' just illustrates your own lack of education in the matters that I discuss. Gnosticism is not 'a' religion. You have not read a single book by Hans Jonas, Elaine Pagels or anyone else with any intellectual gravitas or else you would understand that Gnosticism refers to a complex of extremely diverse views under Jewish, Pagan and Christian world view

I do not have a gospel, but I am conversant with the Nag Hammadi library. Any understanding of Christianity that does not take this magnificent discovery into account is as ignorant as ignorance can be. It is another case of 'don't confuse me with the facts, I've made up my mind.'

You ARE a religious bigot and you've amply demonstrated this by your contempt for any and all religions other than your own as well as aspects of Christendom that do not agree with your own puerile version.

Yes, your god is "power," and that choice of word tells much. I do not see God as power. You see, our mental conceptions of God do not reveal anything about God. You are too young, inexperienced and naive to understand that. What our mental conceptions of God reveal is nothing other than the condition of our own mind. Psychological blind spots are filled with Bible quotations from other people's experiences, not your own.

The other thing that reveals your intrinsic power motive - nothing other than inflationary ego - is that you 'believe' that YOU can 'save' individuals. You are suffering from hubris - pride - and you don't even know it. So profound is your presumption that you affirm your spiritual superiority over others. You are therefore pathologically inflated in your narcissistic sense of superiority. If this language evokes your preferred term "psycho-babble," it is because you have not taken the time and effort to understand yourself psychologically. This leaves you with major psychological blind-spots about yourself - essential unconsciousness. Neither have you sought out someone to analyze and reflect these blind-spots to you and you wrongly think that the ancient words in a book can supply your own inner life with someone else's experience. Spiritual inflation is symptomatic of several conditions but self-knowledge isn't one of them.

Nobody 'saves' anyone else from anything of a spiritual or metaphysical condition. You are sorely confused and neither know or understand that among the Gnostics, there is a psychological system that applies to all peoples including yourself. It is simple and brilliant and clearly delineates the Hylics, Psychics and Pneumatics. You clearly fall into the Psychic (Psychological) category of believers and not the Pneumatic (Spiritual) category by the very language you use. Do not presume to lecture me in things you are ignorant about, or evaluate my words on the basis of your own erroneous and delusional thinking. You are already living a tormented existence for which I feel sadness. Your motive is not to "save" anyone - that is an obvious self-delusion. Your words are not motivated by Compassion, but by a need to convince yourself of your cardboard version of Christianity by attempting to 'conquer' others. Your whole trip is one huge overcompensation for doubt.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7677074 -

MushroomTrip said:
With all the respect, fuck your god :razz:


:naughty:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7677083 -

Catholicism is a complete load of bullshit, in fact all organized religion is bullshit.
It's all just crowd control.

To think that your "God" is the one and only God, the right God, is so stupid and naive.


God is everything and everywhere. Someone said, people get confused with God is Good when in actuality Good is God. The flow of time, nature, and space is God.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: opensaysme]
    #7677212 -

opensaysme said:
Catholicism is a complete load of bullshit, in fact all organized religion is bullshit.
It's all just crowd control.

To think that your "God" is the one and only God, the right God, is so stupid and naive.


God is everything and everywhere. Someone said, people get confused with God is Good when in actuality Good is God. The flow of time, nature, and space is God.


I agree that "Catholicism is a complete load of bullshit". Christianity and Catholicism are two different things.

Aren't you "stupid and naive" when you assert with confidence that "God is everything and everywhere"? How do you know this to be true? Maybe your everything and everywhere God doesn't exit in reality. Sounds like you are on one hand railing against those who have a solid conception of God while you also have a solid conception, so you should be railing against yourself, right?

There is only one God and one reality, just because someone thinks a certain way does not make it true.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: opensaysme]
    #7677374 -

Hello good brothers,

I say if we wish to prosper in peace shall we not forgive our brothers of there misdoings and our own? Those of us quick to attack are only placing judgment upon ourselves. Let us free our minds of little attacks on the truth, and unchain ourselves from delusions.

If we have love in our hearts we CAN be free. Now what is love you ask?

Love is the truth. Love is unconditioned. Love is perfect and eternal, it sees no blame, and sees no guilt anywhere. It can not harm or do injustice to anyone. It is perfectly painless and full of joy. Free from forms or concepts its purity is untarnished.

Now you ask can a thought be love? Yes! Our true minds, held perfectly safe in Gods mind are filled with loving thoughts! Though we may not realize this as we firmly grasp on to illusions.

We CAN be saved this moment if we choose, simply by making a decision.
One decision is all that is needed, to make it once fully and with all your heart and mind and you will be free.

It is only one choice!

Now you choose the Christ in you, or choose the ego.
Choose the spirit in you or choose nothing at all.
Choose God and life! or choose sin and death.
Choose everything and the ego will vanish.

Choose your bread or choose your poison, for every choice you make can nourish you or take you away.

Whatever you believe if you feel guilt or shame, you can be sure you have chosen incorrectly.

So now are we here with one sensible choice to make. Affirm it in your mind and you will be free. The will flows naturally to whatever it values. So value this choice and share it with others and strengthen yourself with this great idea.

This is the path to freedom.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Boundless]
    #7677479 -

aight good brother.....


Isaiah 45:7 (New American Standard Bible)
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
[NASB at Lockman] [The Lockman Foundation] [NASB at Zondervan] [Zondervan]


7The One (A)forming light and (B)creating darkness,
Causing well-being and (C)creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.


what to say about this. good and evil are one in the same, even your bible tells us this. so how for all these year do you christians go on and say god is good and the "devil" is the reason for "bad" things to happen. I mean even the story of the devil is funny because he is originally one of gods angels. please elaborate on this boundless. thanx


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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Boundless]
    #7677480 -

Your doctrine sounds like you just created it out of thin air and is very new age. You say we can be saved, saved from what? Why would someone need saving to begin with?

Salvation is not a choice, it is a gift of God's grace.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7677581 -

Firewolf127 said:
The original manuscripts for the New Testament have been cited as being written well within the first ten years after Christ's death, at which point there were already followers aside from the apostles.

I'm saying you can't call Jesus a great figure and teacher unless you believe in his divinity. That just makes him a crackpot who called himself god. Hell, I'm sure a hefty portion of the posters on the shroomery have make the same claim!


This isn't true. Source Please.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7677600 -

Isaac said:
So the earth was created in 6,000 years?

Again this is false.


Uh I believe on the 3rd day of the earths creation there was morning and there was evening......


--------------------
Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal.

And I am mentally unstable.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: drwatson]
    #7677679 -

I believe that 'god' can't be known by everyone in the same way. Period. Everyone must have their own 'understanding' of god. I agree with seeker on this. We are the mind of god - all life is. Everything is connected because everything is derived from ONE single thing. Together the entire universe is 'god'.

it's kinda funny that WE make god in OUR image.
I mean we wonder "why doesn't god fix the typos in the bible?"
"why does god let bad things happen to good people" "why doesn't god help us?"

As if god is anything like a human and thinks, or whose actions, are motivated by the same things. If you believe in god then you should see how thinking this way is arrogant. If you don't believe in god you already see how thinking this way is foolish.

That being said - IF YOU WANT TO TAKE THE BIBLE LITERALLY CONSIDER THIS:

1. There shall be no gods before me. I am a jealous god. . . etc.
2. Thou shalt not craft graven images nor picture that which is unseen, above in heaven and below the earth.

These are the 1st Two Commandments for those of you that don't know.
Now lets take these two things literally for a second and Ponder the STANDARD IDEA AND WORSHIP OF JESUS who. . .

a. died for your sins
b. followers claimed to be god
c. you must accept to get to heaven (or you burn in hell)

Now then, have you guessed where I'm going with this yet?

If we look at Deut. 32 The Song of Moses we will find the "alpha and omega" schpeal. In this Chapter god says "there are no dieties by my side. . . I am never changing" blah blah blah.

Now if there are "no dieties" by his side and "no gods before me", than Jesus is a false god.

Now lets look at the Standard Practice of Christianity. How many churches Don't have a cross in them?

What is a "Graven Image"?
An association within an "image".

What about pictures of Jesus? Is that not a graven image??
Is this not the very definition of a graven image as given in the 2nd commandment?? What about pictures of angels?

So, if the first 2 commandments are blatantly ignored by general observation and practice, yet are at the very corner stone of the teachings of the bible, how can any of the other supposed "hidden" meanings or "literal" meanings or "metaphorical" meanings be anywhere near in line with the original idea??

OF course a christian would mention something that ISN"T ONCE talked about in the bible. THE TRINITY. Oh this is the part that it becomes metaphor again because if Jesus IS GOD how can Jesus be the Son of GOD also? Oh well he can't be if you take the message literally can he?

So Justification through more philosophy. More mental IMAGES of what god is. A trinity. This is the logic of the Christian Church. This is how following Jesus is justified so that it isn't breaking the first 2 commandments.

Furthermore if you take the idea of the anti-christ into account as well, and see everything Jesus ever did or claimed to do as LITERAL, then you've got him doing EVERYTHING that the ANTI-CHRIST is suppose to do.

The Calender was changed based on HIS birthday
He Claimed to be the messiah
The Idea has Ruled (the minds of the masses) for 2000 years
Claimed to be the son of god
None would question his spiritual nature

When you're focused on getting to the Father through the Son you are going to another "god" or "diety" BEFORE "God" or "the Father".

A

A

And in the book of revelation when Jesus shows up on Dooms Day what is he carrying in his hands? "Behold I have the keys to DEATH AND HELL" is what Jesus claims in the Book of Revelation. Go read it if you don't believe me. I figured you all have read that part at least.

So, lets all take Christianity and the Bible Literally! If we do we've already created the society described by the book of revelation in the name of Jesus and therefore made at least part of the story real via a Cultural Self-Fulfilling Prophecy over a period of 2000 years.

Personally I think it's time to eat some shrooms and break the chains of history my friends. The Bible is nothing but the attempt at a previous generation to propel itself into immortality via IDEALS and MYTHOLOGY.

It is an old MEME which points us toward the original Sin which was the ILLUSION OF SEPERATENESS from "god". That my friends is called Duality and it has ruled religion and philosophy since the start.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: drwatson]
    #7677686 -

If you don't believe in god you already see how thinking this way is foolish.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: drwatson]
    #7677948 -

drwatson said:
I believe that 'god' can't be known by everyone in the same way. Period. Everyone must have their own 'understanding' of god. I agree with seeker on this. We are the mind of god - all life is. Everything is connected because everything is derived from ONE single thing. Together the entire universe is 'god'.


So you just constructed this because it seems reasonable? You have no basis other than your imagination.

Quote:
it's kinda funny that WE make god in OUR image.
I mean we wonder "why doesn't god fix the typos in the bible?"
"why does god let bad things happen to good people" "why doesn't god help us?"



Ge 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

"Our" image, plural, the Godhead.

Quote:
Now lets look at the Standard Practice of Christianity. How many churches Don't have a cross in them?

What is a "Graven Image"?
An association within an "image".

What about pictures of Jesus? Is that not a graven image??
Is this not the very definition of a graven image as given in the 2nd commandment?? What about pictures of angels?

So, if the first 2 commandments are blatantly ignored by general observation and practice, yet are at the very corner stone of the teachings of the bible, how can any of the other supposed "hidden" meanings or "literal" meanings or "metaphorical" meanings be anywhere near in line with the original idea??



The Roman Catholics repeatedly break the 2nd commandment. If fact their official dogma leaves out #2 and changes the other 9 around. They re-write God's Word.

Quote:
OF course a christian would mention something that ISN"T ONCE talked about in the bible. THE TRINITY. Oh this is the part that it becomes metaphor again because if Jesus IS GOD how can Jesus be the Son of GOD also? Oh well he can't be if you take the message literally can he?



A defense of the Deity of Jesus Christ:

Jesus created the universe something only God can do:

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Isa 44:24 I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Since God alone makes all things, and Jesus created the universe, then Jesus must be God.



Jesus uses the term I AM and declares His everlastingness, something only God possesses:

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Hebrews 7:3 shows Melchisedec was a type of Christ who was:
Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Rev 22:13 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.



Jesus is fully God in every way:

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Heb 1:3 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;



Jesus forgives sins, something only God can do:

Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

The scribes realized Jesus was claiming to be God and considered it blasphemy: But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Lu 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?



Jesus spoke as being equal with God and one with God, the Jews understood the implications of this claim and this made them furious:

Joh 10:30-3 I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.



Jesus accepted worship as God which would be sin if He wasn't God:

Lu 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Mt 27:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Lu 5:8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Jesus never rebukes anyone for worshipping Him.



The Saviour and God are one, and if the Saviour be God, Jesus is the Saviour, and Jesus is God:

Lu 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Isa 45:21 ...and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Isa 43:10-11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.



He that honors not the Son honors not the Father:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: fivepointer]
    #7678025 -

Quote:
Ge 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness


Our? The ONE TRUE God? Many true Gods?

Ge "And the sons of God found the daughters of men to be fair and fucked them silly."

Sounds like aliens having interspecies sex to me. :yesnod:


--------------------

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Re: If the Christian god is real... *DELETED* [Re: drwatson]
    #7678063 -

Post deleted by fivepointer

Reason for deletion: duplicate post


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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: fivepointer]
    #7678078 -

Quote:
So you just constructed this because it seems reasonable? You have no basis other than your imagination.


And you have no basis for your beliefs other than a book and your imagination.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7678101 -

I think he has pictures of himself and God at IHOP.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7678114 -

Redstorm said:
Quote:
So you just constructed this because it seems reasonable? You have no basis other than your imagination.


And you have no basis for your beliefs other than a book and your imagination.


This is really what it comes down to.

What is so strange about using the supercomputer God gave me (my brain) to interpret all the information presented to me by reality in an attempt to come to the conclusion that is most sensible in my mind? I was apparently built in his image, so are my own natural faculties really so lacking for this task?

Is it really a stranger approach than getting all your answers from a book, written by some kooks (even if they were good kooks), thousands of years ago, the original text of which none of us can read, the modern text of which was translated by people with an agenda? Never mind that the original text was compiled by people with an agenda, too. The Bible is an amazing book and very much worth reading but there's just no way I'll ever look at it and see the unadulterated, Absolute Word of God.

An even trickier question too is that of Faith, because being atheist honestly takes just as much faith as it does to be an upstanding Christian who reads the Bible.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/25/07 02:25 PM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7678131 -

Good point. It's all a best (subjective) guess. Anyone who says different hasn't been able to provide any real evidence.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7680849 -

fireworks_god said:
MushroomTrip said:
With all the respect, fuck your god :razz:


:naughty:


:smirk:

Come here :naughty:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7681020 -

I know what the bible says so please don't use it as "evidence" for an argument I mean come on.

I'm sure I can take a bunch of random quotes from different verses and make the bible say some pretty fucked up shit but it doesn't mean that it's correct It just means that I manipulated the text to have it say something fucked up.

I know. Why don't you read Deut. 32. The ENTIRE CHAPTER not just one or two little verses that I want you to read so that you can get some other UNRELTATED meaning from those passages. Instead I'd like you to read the whole chapter. Okay?

Besides Jesus still holds "the Keys of Death and Hell" <---- jesus's words not mine.

I wonder if you asked Jesus to worship the Image of a corpse on a cross what he would do?

editFor that matter i wonder how he would feel about pretending to drink blood and eat human flesh.

Edited by drwatson (11/26/07 09:24 AM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #10348947 -

All of your modernist,logical and scientific assumptions about the book of Genesis are ALL wrong. You are approaching ancient Hebrew writings which are midrashic in nature. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash [See PARDES]. The Hebrew Genesis accounts (there are two), also derive from earlier Babylonian and Chaldean sources of myth. It is a gross error not to understand the Hebrew PARDES method of interpretation, and attempt to interpret scriptures with one's 21st century common-sense, scientific or journalist approach of literal-historical accuracy. Are you not familiar with mythological writings at all? Can you not discern that Genesis is yet another creation myth? Have you not ever read or watched a Joseph Campbell interview? I am not a Hebrew scholar, but I have read enough to know that English translations miss the mystical and numerological (Gematria) significance of each letter and word combination in Genesis, which opens up into deeper and deeper intimations of metaphysical meaning. God, for example, is called Elohim before the creation, and YHVH after the creation. Elohim not only suggests plurality, but it is an unusual word which is both masculine and feminine (Hebrew words are one or the other). There are Kabbalistic models which can be expanded from just the Bereshith, the opening lines of Genesis.

You are not breaking the meanings down with a shallow and literal criticism, you are tearing the meanings up. I don't know what the names of the instruments are for doing brain surgery, nor do I know how or where to cut tissue or clamp blood vessels. You are attempting brain surgery with a hammer, chisel and X-Acto knife. Nothing will be achieved by your method except failure.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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