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OfflineTsion
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7638158 - 11/15/07 01:40 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Who's to say that hell isn't better than we deserve?

If God exists, and he created the universe, and every law that binds it together, how can we say our concept of common sense can ever come close to being accurate to him?

Who here can create self-sustaining universe?

But who am I to say that this one is sustaining itself really at all?


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“Why does Hello Kitty drive us to kill? Is it the cute little bow or the dead, soulless eyes?”

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OfflineIsaac
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Tsion]
    #7638255 - 11/15/07 02:33 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tsion said:
Who's to say that hell isn't better than we deserve?

If God exists, and he created the universe, and every law that binds it together, how can we say our concept of common sense can ever come close to being accurate to him?

Who here can create self-sustaining universe?

But who am I to say that this one is sustaining itself really at all?




Which is smarter the stoning to death of disobedient children or the spanking of disobedient children?

Is the answer obvious? The Bible advocates stoning but just because it's in the old testament people like to make excuses. I'd say it's never acceptable before or after any Mosaic law.

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OfflineIsaac
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Tsion]
    #7638259 - 11/15/07 02:37 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tsion said:
Who's to say that hell isn't better than we deserve?

If God exists, and he created the universe, and every law that binds it together, how can we say our concept of common sense can ever come close to being accurate to him?

Who here can create self-sustaining universe?

But who am I to say that this one is sustaining itself really at all?




Do you think you deserve an eternal lake of fire?

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7638261 - 11/15/07 02:39 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Back in the day, they would say that spanking your kids wouldn't do shit. And they're pretty much right.


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You really are the worst kind of person.


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OfflineIsaac
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7638272 - 11/15/07 02:47 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

So kill them? :rofl2:

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7638854 - 11/15/07 10:04 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Gods message in the Bible doesn't appear to be that difficult to understand at all, actually I'd say most ignorant people do fine comprehending its central message. You can't put limitations on an omnipotent being you just can't.



It seems simple because you're reading it in English an have no knowledge of gematria, or midrash. There are several layers of meaning in the Bible's stories, and if the only meaning you can see is literal, then you're no better than the fundamentalists.

Quote:

Btw this is addressing Christianity not Judaism.



Oh, you mean the religion Jesus followed? Somehow I think that's relevant.


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OfflineBoundless
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7638998 - 11/15/07 10:37 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I think God gives us the strength and power within ourselves and we can choose to listen or not.

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OfflineTsion
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7639112 - 11/15/07 10:57 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Isaac said:Do you think you deserve an eternal lake of fire?




I do. Even if by worldly standards people tell me "I've done nothing wrong" and that "I'm a good person", I don't think any of us can relate to the purity of God's heart. By that standard, the standard that I believe, I deserve nothing but the worst.


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OfflineIsaac
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Silversoul]
    #7639446 - 11/15/07 11:59 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
It seems simple because you're reading it in English an have no knowledge of gematria, or midrash. There are several layers of meaning in the Bible's stories, and if the only meaning you can see is literal, then you're no better than the fundamentalists.





It's when you try taking the Bible literal it doesn't stand up to modern science. Did you know there are two separate creation stories in the book of Genesis? Are you going to take that literal? Do you really think there were two separate creations? Maybe it's just a different version of the same story so wouldn't it be foolish to take it literal, it HAS to remain symbolic. So you can't just pick and choose which parts you are and aren't going to take literal, it all has to remain symbollic.

And are you just going to ignore the Bible says to follow the laws of your land? That means no shrooms or pot or anything the government doesn't allow us to do. Are you not going to have premarital sex?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7639477 - 11/15/07 12:07 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

why didn't he make sure the Bible was written accurately?

To win a bet with one of the angels that he could make those idiot humans believe and defend anything.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7639478 - 11/15/07 12:07 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

You're making any sense. I'm the one advocating a symbolic interpretation while you're getting stuck on literalism. As a matter of fact, Judaism has a rich interpretive history, and literalism for them is the exception rather than the rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash


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OfflineIsaac
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Silversoul]
    #7639506 - 11/15/07 12:14 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
You're making any sense. I'm the one advocating a symbolic interpretation while you're getting stuck on literalism. As a matter of fact, Judaism has a rich interpretive history, and literalism for them is the exception rather than the rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash




So then you can't say God had any part of it right?

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OfflineIsaac
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Tsion]
    #7639537 - 11/15/07 12:22 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tsion said:
Quote:

Isaac said:Do you think you deserve an eternal lake of fire?




I do. Even if by worldly standards people tell me "I've done nothing wrong" and that "I'm a good person", I don't think any of us can relate to the purity of God's heart. By that standard, the standard that I believe, I deserve nothing but the worst.




That doesn't make sense for us to deserve hell just because we aren't God. We are a creation from God so damning us all to hell just because we aren't him isn't biblical.

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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7641282 - 11/15/07 06:56 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:



That doesn't make sense for us to deserve hell just because we aren't God. We are a creation from God so damning us all to hell just because we aren't him isn't biblical.




After reading your last few posts, I am beginning to wonder what Bible you read from... We damned ourselves with original sin by disobeying the word of god, thus in god's eyes, deserving punishment.

What are the two creation stories in Genesis, please? I find just the one. Stop letting your anger against a god you don't understand cloud your reason.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7641302 - 11/15/07 07:00 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I think you're confusing Ultimate Reality as described by Christian anthropomorphism, inherited from an ancient Hebrew mythos with the collective writings called the canonical Bible. Your assumptions about the writings 10 being holy scripture, and 20 being 'the infallible Word of God' are evident in your questioning. I'd suggest deconstructing your assumptions first, then looking at Christian traditions as one imperfect attempt to capture Ultimate Freedom on a page.


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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7641339 - 11/15/07 07:06 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


And are you just going to ignore the Bible says to follow the laws of your land? That means no shrooms or pot or anything the government doesn't allow us to do. Are you not going to have premarital sex?




you generalize what the bible says, and make it easier to say it's all literal or all symbolic. Different books in the bible are written by different people, all inspired by God. However, you can't take Revelations literally, because in context it is known to be a vision of the future that was inspired. How about Psalms? They are songs of praise for God. The point is an actual student of the word knows where, what, and why it is literal or allegorical.

Also, Jesus said obey the laws of the land, just like he said give to Caesar what is his. Then he died on the cross to forgive mankind for our inability to follow God's law.


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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7641380 - 11/15/07 07:14 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Galatians actually states that the laws put forth in the Old Testament, particularly the septuagint (which includes Leviticus and all those other hardcore books about stoning and sacrifices at the temple, not to mention most of the stuff about gay people) do not need to be followed by Christians.

People ignore that a lot, particularly Evangelicals.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/15/07 07:17 PM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7641877 - 11/15/07 09:10 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

do not need to be followed by Christians.





But they are good guidelines for everyone else?  :lol: :rofl:

I'm guessing that you are referring to these passages from Galatians:

"Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For what the flesh desires is opposed to the Spirit, and what the Spirit desires is opposed to the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law.

Now the works of the flesh are obvious: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these. I am warning you, as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

I read this as saying that those who are "led by the Spirit" will automatically reject all these evil desires of the flesh.  This means that Christians must prove their spirituality through their actions, and not that Christians are somehow above the absurd laws outlined in the Old Testament.


Edited by Veritas (11/15/07 09:27 PM)

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Veritas]
    #7642673 - 11/16/07 12:56 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Why would god not correct a translation error that would compromise its validity? He wouldn't a wise god would correct any errors in his ONLY book, a wise god would stop useless suffering that has NO purpose. Neither have happened because A) an intelligent god doesn't exist or B) god is an lalala. Neither receive my worship and neither shouldn't receive yours.




It's a lot like other things, you have to use discernment to find the
right way. God never said it would be easy. The idea in any case is that even if there is not one perfectly translated bible, we still have the manuscripts which can tell us what it says with a high degree of certainty.

God doesn't do useless things. It's man that inflicts useless suffering upon himself or others.


silversoul:

Quote:

I believe there is another passage that says "A day with the lord is as 1,000 years." Personally, I've always wondered how you could consider it to be literally a day when there was no sun and no earth to spin on a 24-hour cycle. I don't think that Biblical literalism holds up to relativity in this case.




the day with the Lord is as 1,000 years is not meant to be literal, it is meant as an allegory. It's talking about Gods longsuffering and his being outside of time.

Quote:


3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.




Scripture says there were days even before the sun and moon were created. God said "let there be light" and there was light.

isaac:

Quote:


So the earth was created in 6,000 years?

Again this is false.




According to what? Faulty dating methods and circular reasoning?

silversoul:


Quote:

Considering the passage is allegory, it needn't be interpreted that way either. Remember that people back then didn't even have a concept of a billion. They never saw 6 billion of anything(except grains of sand, but I don't think they were counting).




No it is not an allegory.

If you understood the hebrew word yom, you would realize the only thing it can mean other than a literal day, is an indefinate period of time. The number structures that are used is designating one day are consistant with the literal reading of genesis. Besides, a word has to have a literal meaning before it can be used metaphorically. That's just how language works.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v19/i1/days.asp

2finite:


Quote:

Christ is nothing more than a persona put in the place of the sun, and given the adoration the sun was originally given. Beyond that, the bible and Christian theology is a clone of the Egyptian beliefs, as was their beliefs cloned from ones before them. The root is in astrology.





Egyptian beliefs are really an adaptation of babylonian mystery religion. And that was formed by taking prophecy that pertained to the messiah and applying it to themselves in order to deify themselves, that is Nimrod and Semiramis, and also mixing in a bunch of other pagan nonsense.


firewolf:

Quote:

However, the point of the Bible's lacking isn't a lazy God, but the necessity of choice. If God gave you irrefutable evidence of anything, without the ability to deny it, he robbed you of choice, the most important concept of the Testaments.




You can have irrefutable evidence and still deny it.

Quote:


And God doesn't let bad things happen, they happen as a matter of choice and causality. We lalala things up enough without big guns upstairs taking the heat for it.




God does let bad things happen. And why is he obligated to save man out of every situation he puts himself into? Or why is God responsible for man's fallen state? What if God has a good reason for letting people suffer? Consider that.

Quote:

God didn't write the bible, he 'inspired the hearts of men' and to him the word is sufficient.





God did both.

Isaac:

Quote:

If you are disagreeing that an omnipotent potent god of infinite wisdom and power wouldn't correct mistakes and translation errors to ensure the validity of such an important book I'd have to say you're wrong.




It's not necessary. It's just a luxury that you somehow have come to expect because of your mindset and worldview. As long as people are able to learn and read and discern God's word somehow, that's what matters.

Quote:


You are trading common sense for faith.




Faith is common sense. faith is the evidence of things not seen. It's the recognition of what we know, what we perceive in our "hearts". Things that are eternal. Nothing is more sure than that.

tchan:
Quote:


Isaac, if there is a God, its personality and its consciousness would obviously be so far removed from human comprehension as to render language irrelevant. Do you really think God thinks small enough to edit the Bible or correct chronological errors? Can you imagine it manifesting in a church to have a chat with a monk about all those mistakes in his manuscript?




Why would He have to be so far removed? Aren't you able to communicate with a less intelligent and less developed being for instance a small child, but only in limited capacity? So God can communicate with us on a limited scale (right now).


I think you misunderstood. The closest thing God has to a mouth is an enlightened human being. The human being is flawed and cannot possibly relate the full awesomeness of God to his fellow human beings. So he does his best, and writes a book.


Even if man cannot relate to the full awesomeness of God, that does not mean he cannot perceive his awesome nature. Man doesn't need to relate the full awesomeness of God to others. He just needs to write what God moved him to.

tchan909:


You also must understood that the people who wrote the Bible did not think like we do. Their minds literally ran on a different track. They barely had a concept of "fiction," let alone all the other literary traditions we rely on today to communicate meaning

What nonsense. Source please.

silversoul:

How could such a small mind comprehend infinity?

Spiritual intuition.

God doesn't need to condense his entire nature and all knowledge for us. He only needs to tell us what we need to know now.

God wasn't constrained in creating a finite universe. He wanted to create a finite universe so he created a finite universe.

isaac:

Man wasn't inspired but was commanded by God to write the Bible. If you really want me to I'll find the verses. So therefore the Bible is the word of God and if you're saying the Bible isn't the infallible word of God than you are directly disagreeing with the very book you believe in and you can throw out any part you don't see fit, which you seem just fine with doing.


There is scripture that is inspired by God and there is scripture that is directly commanded by God. There is both.

isaac:


I dont like to jumoo to conclusions either thats why I think it's important for christians as well as atheists to remain open minded to agnostism becuase no one can be certain what happens when you die.

Sounds like you have convinced yourself you cannot find any definitive truth. I'm sorry for you, I know that to not be the case.

isaac:

Which is smarter the stoning to death of disobedient children or the spanking of disobedient children?

Is the answer obvious? The Bible advocates stoning but just because it's in the old testament people like to make excuses. I'd say it's never acceptable before or after any Mosaic law.


You need to get your facts straight. Hebrew children were not stoned to death just for being mildly disobedient. This is after he is consistently disobedient and will not change his ways.


silversoul:

It seems simple because you're reading it in English an have no knowledge of gematria, or midrash.


Here's a lesson for you all. If the bible makes sense, you according to some haven't added enough external confusing mystical nonsense to make a literal reading inconsequential.

I do. Even if by worldly standards people tell me "I've done nothing wrong" and that "I'm a good person", I don't think any of us can relate to the purity of God's heart. By that standard, the standard that I believe, I deserve nothing but the worst.


I think if you could relate to the purity of God's heart, you would have recognized his nature through the knowledge he has given you and you would be a Christian.

isaac:

It's when you try taking the Bible literal it doesn't stand up to modern science. Did you know there are two separate creation stories in the book of Genesis?

It does stand up to science. And you are very wrong, there are not two creation stories, this is a myth spread by ignorance. There is the creation story, that talks about the whole creation, and then there is another part where God was creating things in the garden of eden.


it HAS to remain symbolic.


No, it has to remain literal. You never had justification to interperet it symbolically to begin with from exegesis.


And are you just going to ignore the Bible says to follow the laws of your land? That means no shrooms or pot or anything the government doesn't allow us to do.

Why no natural drugs? God gave us permission to use plants for food and consumption in Genesis 1. Do you believe in government at all? Do you just support the laws you like and ignore the rest? Doesn't that go against the point of laws in the first place?

silversoul:


You're making any sense. I'm the one advocating a symbolic interpretation while you're getting stuck on literalism. As a matter of fact, Judaism has a rich interpretive history, and literalism for them is the exception rather than the rule.

The midrash is irrelevant it is not part of the torah. It has no authority. It's just like the numerous other oral traditions made by men that are unauthorized and unverified. Jesus publicly spoke against this practice.


That doesn't make sense for us to deserve *** just because we aren't God. We are a creation from God so damning us all to *** just because we aren't him isn't biblical.

People don't go to hell just because they arn't just like God, neither do they need to be exactly like Him. The bible teaches people go to judgement because they resist God's call to humanity, and because they are sinners worthy of that judgement. It's not unreasonable to consider such a judgement, when you sin against an almighty and eternal God. It is harsh, but that's the nature of judgement. Thankfully, God wants to save all of us.

I think you're confusing Ultimate Reality as described by Christian anthropomorphism, inherited from an ancient Hebrew mythos with the collective writings called the canonical Bible. Your assumptions about the writings 10 being holy scripture, and 20 being 'the infallible Word of God' are evident in your questioning. I'd suggest deconstructing your assumptions first, then looking at Christian traditions as one imperfect attempt to capture Ultimate Freedom on a page.

How about just reading it as it is and let scripture speak for itself and weigh it against other evidence and reason.

firewolf:


The point is an actual student of the word knows where, what, and why it is literal or allegorical.

You don't need to be a college grad to discern literal and non-literal. Children can do it.

Also, Jesus said obey the laws of the land, just like he said give to Caesar what is his. Then he died on the cross to forgive mankind for our inability to follow God's law.

No, he did not die to forgive mankind for his inability to follow god's law. It is only with God from the beginning that man can bring spiritual fruit. Man was created for God, to dwell in man. Fallen man cannot be perfect without God. Jesus died as a sacrifice for our sins, and not only this, but when he died he rose again as a quickening Spirit, and God's power of grace works in those who believe to perfect them in righteousness and love.


Galatians actually states that the laws put forth in the Old Testament, particularly the septuagint (which includes Leviticus and all those other hardcore books about stoning and sacrifices at the temple, not to mention most of the stuff about *** people) do not need to be followed by Christians.

That's false. The levitical law, that is besides the ten commandments , the temple service, and sacrifices, and religious rituals, and other laws, don't need to be followed. But the ten commandments are not annuled by any means (as Jesus himself and scripture point out several times), neither the righteousness that the o.t. civil laws were based on. When the new testament rejects the old law, it's rejecting the old temple service and sacrifices and such, which were a "shadow of the good things to come" in Christ. That is, they were an allegory, a tutor to lead to Christ. As for gay people, there are verses in the new testament that clearly speak against that.

But it's true that Christians shouldn't go around stoning or judging others. It's not that there's a double standard, it's that justice is good, but mercy is better.

veritas:


I read this as saying that those who are "led by the Spirit" will automatically reject all these evil desires of the flesh.

Not quite. It's not on autopilot. It requires willing obedience on the part of the believer. Christians work with God, not working as mindless robots.

"This means that Christians must prove their spirituality through their actions, and not that Christians are somehow above the absurd laws outlined in the Old Testament."

Christians are above many of the troublesome laws in the o.t. (which in the n.t. are called a burden) but you are right about Christians proving themselves through their actions. To abide in Christ, you must bear fruit, or you will be cut off and cast into the fire (john 15) Jesus says to judge others by their fruit.

Edited by jonathan_206 (11/16/07 11:49 AM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7642695 - 11/16/07 01:10 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

A lot of people can't seem to understand that in spite of the YHWH's omnipotence and infinite goodness, He doesn't want life to be easy for His children. He wants them to learn for themselves. Would He really be infinitely good if he coddled us and spoiled us, like an entire species of little Paris Hiltons? He tried that with the garden of Eden, and it didn't work. What kind of divine father would He be if He didn't let us learn our lessons for ourselves?

Some sects of Gnosticism view YHWH as a mad scientist. I think this view holds up well, as it seems most of His interactions with humans amount to tests. Will you eat the apple? Will Job worship me even if I shit on him? Will they listen to Jesus, a man who symbolically gives his life for the redemption of humanity? Will they still be able to interpret the meat of the Bible when half of its contents are proven wrong or become functionally obsolete when taken literally? I'm on the edge of my seat here, and I'm sure God is too.

Edited by Tchan909 (11/16/07 01:15 AM)

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by gnrm23
* Question For the christians..
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* Do You Believe In God?
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