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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7645406 -

MushroomTrip said:
Accept Jesus Christ as your savior and you're saved! No more comments! :mad2:



If that was indeed a true statement, that is one of the main reasons why Christianity (amongst many other religions) are bad. To believe in something, and to not question, just seems...I don't really know. Blind maybe?

Someone should never stop questioning. The more they ask, the more they'll learn. And since when is learning bad? Always push the limits. Your oppression shall not keep the truth hidden in shadows!!
:psychsplit:


--------------------
"Love is what we are born with. Fear is what we have learned here. The spiritual journey is the unlearning of fear and the acceptance of love back into our hearts."
:hippie:

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: spanky43]
    #7645697 -

I could never joke about something like this :arabs:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7645718 -

:rabidcatdog:
Satan snickers at you.


--------------------
"Love is what we are born with. Fear is what we have learned here. The spiritual journey is the unlearning of fear and the acceptance of love back into our hearts."
:hippie:

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: spanky43]
    #7645741 -

I hope so :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7645810 -

:strokebeard:
word.


--------------------
"Love is what we are born with. Fear is what we have learned here. The spiritual journey is the unlearning of fear and the acceptance of love back into our hearts."
:hippie:

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Middleman]
    #7646395 -

Quote:
Quote:
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This is a partial truth. That british king was only one king in history. There were several revisions before that kings revision.


middleman:

Right, but King James' is the one most Xtians are "authorized" to believe in, right?



Only if you're from England..but no it's really not like it's "authorized" by God for all Christians. It is a very useful book for parallel reading and and comparison,bu it is true that it's got lots of errors. But they can be corrected with study and a concordance. Like i said, it's not about the bible, it's about the final result. I totally agree that God would want Christians to have a perfect bible they can understand, but what I'm saying is, it's not necessary.
Quote:
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And there is absolutely no evidence it was "complied by a roman emporor". It was compiled by many clergy who were gathered together in a council that was "sponsored" by constantine (who by the way had contradicting beliefs from the councils conclusion).


It was more than sponsored by him, Constantine in convoking and presiding over the council signaled a measure of imperial control over the church, and thus the masses.


Quote:
Constantine was not the decider of the canon, and played in fact no role at all in its assembly; the church at large was the party responsible. The process of canonizing the New Testament was based on a model that had existed for centuries whereby various religions chose a collection of normative sacred books. It is likely that Paul himself began the process by collecting his own letters, or that one of his friends like Luke or Timothy did so. Far from being an arbitrary process, or one decided upon by Constantine much later, the formation of the canon was the result of carefully-weighed choices over time by concerned church officials and members. Later votes on the canon were merely the most definitive steps taken at the end of a long and careful, sometimes difficult, process. Biblical scholar Robert Grant, in The Formation of the New Testament, writes that the New Testament canon was:
...not the product of official assemblies or even of the studies of a few theologians. It reflects and expresses the ideal self-understanding of a whole religious movement which, in spite of temporal, geographical, and even ideological differences, could finally be united in accepting these 27 diverse documents as expressing the meaning of God's revelation in Jesus Christ and to his church. [18]

To claim that Constantine was behind the canon, or was responsible for destroying Gospels he did not approve of, is a ludicrous distortion of history. In fact, Constantine convened the Council at Nicea, paid the travel expenses of those who attended, and provided his summer lake palace for the site, but he had no ecclesiastical authority at all. The information we have on the Council is fascinating and in no way supports the idea of a pagan Roman’s overthrow of “early Christianity” or any conspiracy. A good introduction to the facts about the Council is available in the Summer 1996 issue of Christian History magazine, “Heresy in the Early Church,” at http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/51h/ .


edit:

I must add that I do believe there was a conspiracy, but not the kind this article is referring to. It was rather paganism that had taken over the roman catholic church, and turned it into a veiled system of
adoltary.

Edited by jonathan_206 (11/17/07 12:21 AM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7646517 -

Tchan909 said:
A lot of people can't seem to understand that in spite of the YHWH's omnipotence and infinite goodness, He doesn't want life to be easy for His children. He wants them to learn for themselves. Would He really be infinitely good if he coddled us and spoiled us, like an entire species of little Paris Hiltons? He tried that with the garden of Eden, and it didn't work. What kind of divine father would He be if He didn't let us learn our lessons for ourselves?

Some sects of Gnosticism view YHWH as a mad scientist. I think this view holds up well, as it seems most of His interactions with humans amount to tests. Will you eat the apple? Will Job worship me even if I shit on him? Will they listen to Jesus, a man who symbolically gives his life for the redemption of humanity? Will they still be able to interpret the meat of the Bible when half of its contents are proven wrong or become functionally obsolete when taken literally? I'm on the edge of my seat here, and I'm sure God is too.


Just because God gives us next to nothing doesn't mean he would have to give us everything and spoil us if he decided to give to give us anything. Nobody can say for sure how God would think, so some will completely ignore this next question but if you were god wouldn't you stop useless suffering? I mean if God can create reality anyway he sees fits he'd then have the power to enlighten man with a strong will to love and if that happened its hard to deny that the world would be a better place.

But people say what moral significance does anything have if god just GIVES us enlightenment and we don't learn anything for ourselves? Most people that make the world a bad place know why it's wrong to do those things but they do them anyway, many people know that it isn;t right or morally just to kill, rape, steal ect. most DO realize the moral significance of being good. So why couldn't God then enlighten man who's discovered being good moral signifigance? He'd be doind mankind a large favor by this but he pretty much does nothing. For all WE know he just sits back with all his infinite power and wisdom and lets anything and everything happen and leaves one and only one poorly written, superstitious and very inaccurate book as proof, yeah right.

Edited by Isaac (11/17/07 02:09 AM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7647493 -

Quote:
So why couldn't God then enlighten man who's discovered being good moral signifigance?


He does enlighten people who truly seek after him, unfortunately, there are very few of those people.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7647672 -

jonathan_206 said:
Quote:
So why couldn't God then enlighten man who's discovered being good moral signifigance?


He does enlighten people who truly seek after him, unfortunately, there are very few of those people.


There are people that worship god that are FAR from enlightened buddy.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7648222 -

Quote:
Right...and YOU were there. It's midrash friend, not history.


The Torah predates midrash by many hundreds of years. The midrash is not part of the Torah. the Seven Midroth attributed to Rabbi Hillel, come from a school of thought of pharisetical interpretation that Jesus repudiated.

if there has been a diminution of attention to Jewish culture, traditions, or hermeneutic principles, the "fault" can be laid to the charge of Jesus and Paul. Jesus said:

(Mat 23:38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Would you think from this statement of Christ, that He was advocating that we should look to the Pharisees for instruction in the Faith?

Paul, in his epistle to the Galatians, discredited the Judaizers, and furthermore leveled a curse against them or anyone who preached any Gospel that was different from the Gospel that he preached. Paul even rebuked Peter for being a respecter of persons in his Jewish sympathies (Gal. 2:11-18). And again:

(Rom 10:1-2) Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. {2} For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

No, not once do we read that Jesus or any of the apostles recommend that we resort to the traditions of the first century Jews for training in biblical interpretation or righteousness. Jesus, Himself, denounced the Pharisees' handling of the Scriptures, and said that they were guilty of:

(Mark 7:13) Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Quote:
Right...and YOU were there.


What kind of a statement is this, from someone who calls himself elder and wishes to hold historical criticisms of Christianity. There is heavy evidence that these miracles took place.. the pharisees did not deny them themselves. There's external evidence, secondary and tertiary sources, it's not like we can't look at the historical situation at the time from evidence besides the bible, though It won't help you in you departure from scripture. Did the Jews ever write a popular in depth rebuttal of Jesus' miracles or doctrine? Remember the reason the pharisees took him by night and didn't try to attack him in public was because they knew the people respected him as a prophet, and they would likely stone them.

Consider that Jesus in the eyes of the religious authority in Israel at that time had broken laws, and normally they would have prosecuted such a person.


Quote:
It's midrash friend, not history.



No, the law and the prophets is not midrash the n.t. is not midrash, and the midrash did not even begin it's written history until the second century.


Quote:
And when did you ever get the divine right to vouch for thousands of people even in your own lifetime? When? WHEN? YOU know what thousands of people witnessed, two millennia ago? No you don't.


Yes I do. I don't speak for history, I intend to let history speak for itself.

Quote:
You are assuming something based on your blind belief in writings which were not even intended to be accurate. They are MIDRASH - look up the meaning of the word and then try to understand that the writers of these stories were not writing out of modern, scientifically precise or ethically journalistic mentalities. You're completely naive because you are assuming things, and you know what happens when you assume, don't you? You make an lalala out of u and me. Your 'faith' is blind, not informed buy reason or insight or experience and therefore your 'faith' is incorrect.


No, when we read scripture we must allow scripture to speak for itself. If the scripture needs a different interpretation, it will ask for one. We have to start with basic common sense methods of interpretation. There is no authorical reason why we are required to read the midrash with the torah or the n.t.

The fact is that there are expositions in Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews that instruct us directly in the principles of Biblical interpretation, giving us examples of the significance of symbols and allegory.

The rules of interpretation of Scripture are self-evident: Before you start looking for other incidental meanings and applications, you begin by receiving the plain conveyance of the words according to all the normal rules of definition and grammar, which include the universal rhetorical devices of metaphor, allegory, simile, symbol, type, and etc. If the text asks for historical references it will do it on it's own. But we must not go begging the question.

It's outrageous how people will apply these rediculous rules of interpretation to the bible, but to nothing else. It is a book that is written in the style of historical narrative. It's been that way for thousands of years! It hasn't changed. ANd what does a person with no preconceived concepts and schools of thought, when they take a look at the bible, how does it look to be written? Historical narrative!

What's disgusting is how anyone would have the audacity to inform me I must depart from the plain language of scripture and use an external, non authorized system of interpretation, which in the period it was written, there were conflicting sects in Israel,with new groups forming regularly, and which was a hebrew system of interpretation, and I am informed I must apply this to the n.t. which was written in greek.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7650308 -

"There is heavy evidence that these miracles took place..."

This statement defines the depth of delusory thinking. It is not grounded in your experience, it is a statement based upon an irrational assumption which is no doubt taken to be faith.

"What's disgusting is how anyone would have the audacity to inform me..."

This statement amply defines the inflationary ego of one who imagines that he has great spiritual authority. The use of the word "audacity" is the choice of an ego which feels challenged by another ego because the person is so identified with his egoic-mind, to wit, his 'thoughts.' It also places itself above "anyone," which is to say, that egoic-mind's inflationary state is expression superiority over "anyone."

These two terse statements are more than sufficient to render the poster's entire communication useless in any meaningful, mutually respecting communication. It is not a communication of divergent religious opinion, it is a veritable temper tantrum with inflationary condescension:

"What kind of a statement is this, from someone who calls himself elder and wishes to hold historical criticisms of Christianity."

I call myself an elder by virtue of my chronological years on the planet which obviously exceeds your own by many. As an elder I have had more time, under a variety of trying inner and outer circumstances of life, to come to certain conclusions. I was once taken in by the massive delusion from which humanity suffers, as you still are. I have Awakened from the delusion that mythological and midrashic embellishments were somehow miraculous historical events. Hopefully you too will awaken from the hazy twilight world of unconscious hopes and fears which calls itself 'faith,' and a new adult version of faith will emerge from a mere mental condition of wish-fulfillment. No friend, the graves were not thrown open, and reanimated corpses did not walk again on Earth when Iesus died on a Roman cross. And btw, THIS little passage really overtakes the 'unique' importance of the Easter [Ishtar] Sunday Resurrection in the flesh, if only by shear numbers of Resurrected humans. Resurrection might be illustrated thusly, but it remains a metaphor for THE Transcendental Mystery of Eternal Life, not a grotesquely crude literal event and the inspiration for film maker George A. Romero!

“Behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks were split; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints that slept were raised; and came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." - Matthew 27:51

I'm sorry for you if you live your life believing writings like this as being historical, but Matthew 27:51 (for example), is not an historical event, and if you can not assertain this then your reality testing is severely compromized. It is midrash, or it is visionary or it is a public relations attempt by the gospel writer to win more converts, but it is not recorded history. Neither are the theophanies of the Old Testament: pillars of smoke and fire, parting of the Red Sea as Cecil B. Demille created it with Charleton Heston as Moses.

I am not interested in arguing with you or with anyone whose mind has confused midrash/mthos with historicity. I have been where you are and have matured into an elder human being. Losts of people do not mature, they just get older and retain the same inner development of youth. You still require 'supernatural events' in your mind in order to support your faith in God. I do not. Everyday existence, in the face of non-existence, is miraculous. You do not live in the Present, you live in your thoughts about a magickal past and a magickal future.
I hold to a 'Fully Realized Eschatology,' and you hold to a 'Partially Realized Eschatology,' with a fulfillment to occur at some unknown point in future history with all the 'movements' of spiritual life manifesting as historical events (Second Coming, Rapture, Judgement, etc.). I do not hold to these processes as referring to physical reality.

I therefore subscribe to a Gnostic Christianity, a Christianity which is making a comeback after its suppression for two millennia, along with its egalitarian treatment of women and its tolerance for other religious traditions. This is possible because Gnostic Christians identify with Being [Spirit] and not with Mind [Psyche] which is comprised of our sensations, emotions and thoughts, and thoughts are not the basis of Salvation (Illumination, Enlightenment) so it matters little what one 'thinks' (believes). What matters is that one's Awareness of Awareness produces a Compassionate and therefore a tolerant and peace-loving human being regardless of the mere scaffolding of beliefs which the spiritually immature require in the building of life of faith. Gnostic Christianity is a mystical spirituality which recognizes Being [Spirit, God] in other human beings, not only those who wear the same 'thinking cap' as we do. God, friend, is not Christian and Gnostic Christians do not 'believe' that beliefs are a vessel for containing Ultimate Truth. If anything, beliefs are a cage which hold partial truths and worship of those partial truths is idolatry and a false god. Worship thoughts, which is what beliefs are, and you worship an idol.

This then is my position. It applies to my own occasional idolatry which I must become aware of and scrape like an encrustation from the Pearl of Pure Being (the Biblical metaphor is "a pearl of great price" - metaphor). This is the Gnostic interpretation of who Iesus was and what He taught based more on personal spiritual experience than upon the written words of 1st century PR men for Christianity (and not for the Reality which is Christ). I have no interest in converting you, I am only interested in helping someone who requests my help in explaining an alternative and transforming vision of Christianity.

Clearly, mainstream Christianity has done little good and much harm across the centuries. Even today, a bigot in the White House under the guise of being a Christian is the provebial wolf in sheep's clothing, deceiving all the other bigots in the USA and evoking a world-wide hatred that will lead us to Armageddon. Now THERE is one historical event that will earn the Biblical name!
THERE is will I will agree with the historical outcome of fundamentalistic bigotry resulting in the Four Riders of the Apocalypse: Chemical, Biological, Radiological and Thermonuclear death to us all. All in the Name of God.

Respond if you wish, but I have little inclination to engage with you in any further dialogue on whose Iesus is the more Realistic, or better yet, on which of us has a better grasp on Reality.

+++ Shalom +++

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (11/18/07 09:16 AM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7650322 -

This statement defines the depth of delusory thinking. It is not grounded in your experience, it is a statement based upon an irrational assumption which is no doubt taken to be faith.

So true.

"What's disgusting is how anyone would have the audacity to inform me..."

nothing can inform a closed mind.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7651057 -

jonathan_206 said:
If the scripture needs a different interpretation, it will ask for one.


Ever heard of Kabbalah?

I don't understand why fanatical adherence to the literal truth of the Bible is so important to you guys. Can't you understand that every religion has its politics, perhaps none moreso than Christianity and that the book you are reading has been influenced by a million different people and a million different agendas? It's a book, which was either given to you by another person or purchased in a bookstore(!), not a meteor from the sky with an inscription on it.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7653397 -

The truth is Christianity derived from Pagan origins not from God but try telling that to somebody who's already made up their mind.

http://www.pocm.info/getting_started_pocm.html

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7653567 -

To all the mockers, scoffers, and false religionists you had better hope that scripture is a lie for if it is true:

2Th 1:7-10
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: fivepointer]
    #7653570 -

I don't have to hope, I KNOW the bible is a lie, I could prove it in court.


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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Middleman]
    #7653627 -

You have rejected the truth so you are calling God a liar. Those who have not a love of the truth shall perish.

2Th 2:10-12
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: fivepointer]
    #7653692 -

The Mormons have a lot of verses too. Their book is more accurate than the one you are quoting, so grow up and deal with it. :razz:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: fivepointer]
    #7654069 -

fivepointer said:
To all the mockers, scoffers, and false religionists you had better hope that scripture is a lie for if it is true:

2Th 1:7-10
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


Who cares? We're doomed anyway, since you are the only true Christian who is uniquely qualified to interpret scripture. Heaven's got to be lonely, with you being the only one there and all.


--------------------

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7654118 -

MushroomTrip said:
Accept Jesus Christ as your savior and you're saved! No more comments! :mad2:


its not that cut and dry. might work for you mushroom trip, but giving that advice to others is bad advise because theres much more to being 'saved' than just accepting jesus christ as your savior by Christian standards, or biblical standards for that matter. I believe those kinds of statements sets others up for a large personal struggles and possibly years of unhappiness because of these inaccuracies.


If you want to be a christian, fine, my best wishes; but dont push it on others, otherwise you're as bad as those extremist muslims imo, who think they're doing the right thing by forcing their religion down others throats.


--------------------
notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."

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