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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7642705 -

jonathan, Thanks for your responses.

I am in disagreement with the necessity to bear fruit in order to attain salvation. The necessity to bear fruit takes the power of Christ's death and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and circumvents it, saying that man can attain salvation on by himself.

Thank you in advance for your approach to the topic.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7642708 -

Tchan, I respected your perspective until you said Jesus died for our sins symbolically. Unless you see the necessity of Christ's crucification, and see it as literal, you've missed a massive portion of scripture.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7642712 -

I'm not Christian and I don't believe Jesus was actually a "child of God" anymore than any other human being. I think he was a great man and a beautiful example to live by, and his sacrifice moves me; I also think some of his followers likely capitalized on his popularity to make a grab for power and made up some of the stuff found in the New Testament after he died.

I could be wrong. There's no real way to know for the time being. Personally, I find his sacrifice more powerful and meaningful when I consider him a child of man, not a child of God. I respect your beliefs, I simply differ in my interpretation of events.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/16/07 01:29 AM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7642730 -

Your interpretation of events makes this beautiful man, Jesus, into
A- A liar
B- Insane
C- God

What are his contributions if he was lying about being the true Son of God?

His followers suffered fates worse than that he himself suffered, where is the gain in that?


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7642745 -

I am saying that Jesus's words are probably distorted in the New Testament we read today. Scholars agree that the Gospel of John, for example, which discusses his particular divinity most extensively, was most likely written well after the life and death of Christ.

The real substance of his teachings, the way of life he exemplified and taught, remains clear to see in the New Testament for believers and nonbelievers alike, and should be heeded by all. It is the antagonistic abuse of power-hungry rulers that have made his teachings, which should be available to all, into something divisive.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/16/07 01:42 AM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7642752 -

The original manuscripts for the New Testament have been cited as being written well within the first ten years after Christ's death, at which point there were already followers aside from the apostles.

I'm saying you can't call Jesus a great figure and teacher unless you believe in his divinity. That just makes him a crackpot who called himself god. Hell, I'm sure a hefty portion of the posters on the shroomery have make the same claim!


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7642759 -

Even if he did call himself the son of God (which I'm trying to say I'm not entirely sure he really did), who can deny him the right to that belief if he truly lived for the benefit of his fellow man?

While the rest of the gospels most likely were written by the actual followers of Jesus himself, the Gospel of John has a lot of strikes against its credibility as a close-and-personal account of Jesus. For example, that it was not even written in the vernacular of the time Jesus lived in.

I really don't like getting into arguments over religion... like I said, I respect your beliefs and admit the possibility that I'm very wrong. This is just how I have chosen to interpret the things I've seen.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/16/07 01:54 AM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7642786 -

If you deny his purpose and his stated nature, you'd have to just as easily deny his supposed works. How could you be sure anything in the bible happened? denying he is what he says he is and saying he cared about mankind is a difficult conclusion to reach.

If the passages regarding his divinity are false, the new testament becomes invalid, and there is no reason to heed his teachings.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7642805 -

I'm not sure anything happened. All I can do is look at the tale that has been handed down over the millenia and make my own sense of it.

Maybe Jesus truly was the child of God in that nobody else in his place and time had remotely such a connection with the cosmic sense of human goodness? Meanings are never set in stone.

Judaism and its offshoots have always seemed to break down when they are taken at face-value, with black-and-white thinking. They are suffuse with mysteries and shades of gray.

Edited by Tchan909 (11/16/07 02:12 AM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7643037 -

Tchan909 said:
A lot of people can't seem to understand that in spite of the YHWH's omnipotence and infinite goodness, He doesn't want life to be easy for His children. He wants them to learn for themselves. Would He really be infinitely good if he coddled us and spoiled us, like an entire species of little Paris Hiltons? He tried that with the garden of Eden, and it didn't work. What kind of divine father would He be if He didn't let us learn our lessons for ourselves?

Some sects of Gnosticism view YHWH as a mad scientist. I think this view holds up well, as it seems most of His interactions with humans amount to tests. Will you eat the apple? Will Job worship me even if I shit on him? Will they listen to Jesus, a man who symbolically gives his life for the redemption of humanity? Will they still be able to interpret the meat of the Bible when half of its contents are proven wrong or become functionally obsolete when taken literally? I'm on the edge of my seat here, and I'm sure God is too.


Well said!

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7643074 -

"If the passages regarding his divinity are false, the new testament becomes invalid, and there is no reason to heed his teachings."

This is a blind, which is to say, unconscious assumption. The midrashic style of writing well illustrates Iesus as the illuminated focus of the New Testament. A unique ontological status does not validate Christianity and in fact is actually a groundless assertion. That is the ancient conclusion of those who still conceived of Deity in crudely anthropomorphic terms. Even Pagan philosophers of antiquity, like Celsus, recognized this.

Iesus is more usefully and helpfully understood as the West's archetype
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archetype of humanity. A literal human manifestation of Formless Deity is none other than Greek mythological thinking. This is the main reason why Jews never accepted the Divinity of Iesus as being a Divinity other than the Immanence of the Omnipresent God in all of us and in every point of creation. Miracles and theophanies all belong to Jewish midrash and to Jewish mythos in general. Every miraculous event which is attributed to Iesus can be found scattered throughout the world's religious traditions from walking on water to healings to resurrection. If you want to insist on Iesus' Divinity being that which the validity of Christianity is based upon, you are inadvertantly building a strong case against Christianity because if the validity of Christianity is based on the Divinity of Christ, and His Divinity simultaneously means the uniqueness of Christ, then proving that the claims for Christ are NOT unique negates the Divine basis for His uniqueness.

Now Christians have usually maintained that in THIS instance, the archetypal (in a Platonic sense) or the mythological dimension Really manifested historically. I bought this myself when I became a Christian, but that decision was an uncritical one based on my personal need for something substantial (historically grounded in the physical plane) to believe in. It was an assumption which I chalked up to 'a leap of faith.' That faith has yielded to gnosis, a Knowing that is a Way of Being. That Way of Being is none other than The Way, which is what followers of Iesus called themselves before they were called Christians. Jesus was 'Christed,' no doubt about it, but so are His followers who have become His Initiates - those whose 'faith' in the possibility of becoming 'Christed' have been 'Christed' in some measure themselves. Those who are Initiates 'have eyes to see,' they have 'gnosis,' first-hand experience of Christ because they too live The Way.

The Ascension, Resurrection, Judgement are processes in each moment, not historical processes for Initiates of Gnosis. The stories about historical events are illustrations about archetypal omnipresent facets of the spiritual life. "Let those with ears, hear."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7643082 -

I tend to just go by:

"When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind."

Now, if you'd excuse me, I'm going to go listen to some John Lennon. :peace:


--------------------
"Love is what we are born with. Fear is what we have learned here. The spiritual journey is the unlearning of fear and the acceptance of love back into our hearts."
:hippie:

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: spanky43]
    #7643333 -

dude your avatar is magical.

Xtianity is the religion of Paul not Josh-us.

The Bible was compiled by a Roman Emperor and revised by a British King (same thing) to serve their socio-political agendas.

The secrets of the scriptures are best understood by a thorough study of ancient Egyptian and Mesopotamian mythologies, imo.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Middleman]
    #7643945 -

Quote:
jonathan, Thanks for your responses.

I am in disagreement with the necessity to bear fruit in order to attain salvation. The necessity to bear fruit takes the power of Christ's death and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and circumvents it, saying that man can attain salvation on by himself.


But that's not what it implies at all. To forgive our sins is not enough. We need to be brought back to a level of perfection to have fellowship with God, and to have love and righteousness in us, indeed to be loving and righteous. To forgive us is good, but it's not enough. If he forgives us of our sins, but then leaves us in a fallen state, then we are not truly redeemed. If we live righteous, then we are righteous, and this has been the Christian teaching all along. It's not attaining salvation by ourselves, by the same sacrifice Jesus was able to make for our sins, he initiated a covenant of grace, that is a power of grace to work in us and with us, to perfect us in love and righteousness. This is what scripture clearly teaches, and what so many cannot see, because they are blind.

tchan:

Quote:
Even if he did call himself the son of God (which I'm trying to say I'm not entirely sure he really did),



He did. Absolutely. It's so obvious it doesn't need to be pointed out. I only need one example. If you don't recognize this, you should go do some studying, and then come back.

markosthegnostic:


Quote:
Iesus is more usefully and helpfully understood as the West's archetype
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archetype of humanity. A literal human manifestation of Formless Deity is none other than Greek mythological thinking. This is the main reason why Jews never accepted the Divinity of Iesus as being a Divinity other than the Immanence of the Omnipresent God in all of us and in every point of creation. Miracles and theophanies all belong to Jewish midrash and to Jewish mythos in general. Every miraculous event which is attributed to Iesus can be found scattered throughout the world's religious traditions from walking on water to healings to resurrection. If you want to insist on Iesus' Divinity being that which the validity of Christianity is based upon, you are inadvertantly building a strong case against Christianity because if the validity of Christianity is based on the Divinity of Christ, and His Divinity simultaneously means the uniqueness of Christ, then proving that the claims for Christ are NOT unique negates the Divine basis for His uniqueness.


You compare historical narrative to mythology. Don't you realize that
whether you like it or not, thousands and thousands of people were witness to his miracles?? So what if some nonsensical mythology has some miracle that's also found in scripture. Your premise is incorrect.


middleman:

Quote:
Xtianity is the religion of Paul not Josh-us.


Christianity as explained by paul, is in exact accordance with Jesus' teachings, and it has been tried for many moons to seperate Paul's letters with Christs teachings, but to none avail. To annul Pauls writings would be to annul Christ's as well.

Quote:
The Bible was compiled by a Roman Emperor and revised by a British King (same thing) to serve their socio-political agendas.


This is a partial truth. That british king was only one king in history. There were several revisions before that kings revision. And there is absolutely no evidence it was "complied by a roman emporor". It was compiled by many clergy who were gathered together in a council that was "sponsored" by constantine (who by the way had contradicting beliefs from the councils conclusion). The compilation was really not made then, it was really an affirmation of the scripture that had been recognized as authoritive for a while. If you get your information from places like Tom browns book, prepare to be wrong, alot.

Edited by jonathan_206 (11/16/07 11:51 PM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7643959 -

I like this guy. He's like fivepointer lite.


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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Silversoul]
    #7643974 -

It's the same ol crap. It's written in some old book that says it's the word of God and so it is and so everybody else is wrong and if you don't do it you will go to hell. Lite my ass. It's fucking sick and makes man into an idiot and a slave.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7644505 -

jonathan_206 said:

Quote:
This is a partial truth. That british king was only one king in history. There were several revisions before that kings revision.


Right, but King James' is the one most Xtians are "authorized" to believe in, right?

Quote:
And there is absolutely no evidence it was "complied by a roman emporor". It was compiled by many clergy who were gathered together in a council that was "sponsored" by constantine (who by the way had contradicting beliefs from the councils conclusion).


It was more than sponsored by him, Constantine in convoking and presiding over the council signaled a measure of imperial control over the church, and thus the masses.

Quote:
If you get your information from places like Tom browns book, prepare to be wrong, alot.


Um, no, I don't, it's called History, and no, I'm not.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7644567 -

"You compare historical narrative to mythology. Don't you realize that
whether you like it or not, thousands and thousands of people were witness to his miracles?? So what if some nonsensical mythology has some miracle that's also found in scripture. Your premise is incorrect."

Right...and YOU were there. It's midrash friend, not history. And when did you ever get the divine right to vouch for thousands of people even in your own lifetime? When? WHEN? YOU know what thousands of people witnessed, two millennia ago? No you don't. You are assuming something based on your blind belief in writings which were not even intended to be accurate. They are MIDRASH - look up the meaning of the word and then try to understand that the writers of these stories were not writing out of modern, scientifically precise or ethically journalistic mentalities. You're completely naive because you are assuming things, and you know what happens when you assume, don't you? You make an ass out of u and me. Your 'faith' is blind, not informed buy reason or insight or experience and therefore your 'faith' is incorrect.

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (11/16/07 06:13 PM)

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7644656 -

Hey, that was well put.

But of course you know that Fundamentalists are informed directly by (their)God of exactly what the truth is and what they should focus on or believe in the Bible . :crazy2:

Watch out Markos, you are walking on thin Icelander here. You could be headed for the lake of fire.:hellfire: Repent! Shut off your mind and reason and be saved.:sun:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Icelander]
    #7645215 -

I am so disgusted by this medieval pre-Copernican, Geo-centric Fundamentalist mentality. The outward projection of egocentricity is a modern form of Geocentricity, wherein our wonderful little planet (wonderful to us who grew from it! The Earth is our Mother - Her amino acid cooz produced us, no doubt to me, with Divine Directions from Her Divine Consort, GOD) is at the center of ALL of Creation. Cosmic Egocentrism. Geocentrism.

The Earth is probably a drop of Sol, which splashed off and cooled. Every element on the Periodic Table formed from the first element Hydrogen. Atomic Number One. They all came from the One, even on the physical plane. Proton and Electron - positive and negative - the Yang-Yin of physical reality. A medium sized yellow-white star, itself born in some ancient star nursery of countless stars, each one with a possible planetary system and among the numberless 'class M' planets, God-only-knows how many human beings are out there with their own religious histories being argued by God-only-knows how many Markos' and Fundamentalists and wise-cracking Icelanders.

But hey..."Isn't that special?"

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