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Anonymous

Define God - For Nonbelievers
    #1520898 - 05/05/03 08:37 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

So if you're going to say something doesn't exist, shouldn't you define what you're saying doesn't exist first?

So if you do not believe in God, please post exactly what "God" means to you.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Posts: 3,040
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1520914 - 05/05/03 08:45 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

hhmmmm. I don't follow. why should they define something they don't believe in?maybe some non-believers don't believe in God because it can't be defined.



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Anonymous

Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1520924 - 05/05/03 08:52 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

You don't follow?

I'm saying if someone says "God doesn't exist," what does the word God represent? God is a word, a subjective idea. God represents something different to different people. If you don't believe in God, what does the word God represent to you? That is what I am asking.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1520930 - 05/05/03 08:57 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I believe in God so it doesn't apply to me. But I'm saying why should someone have to define something they don't believe in?

maybe they don't believe in it because it's such a vague concept... and they only believe in things that they can define.

usually, the believers are the ones that define God and the non-believers say "well, I don't believe in THAT god", the non-believers don't define it.



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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1520954 - 05/05/03 09:06 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Everyone believes in God, some just call it Nature.


--------------------
:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


Edited by Adamist (05/05/03 09:07 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1520955 - 05/05/03 09:06 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

That makes absolutely no sense. How can you deny the existance of something you are not defining?


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1520962 - 05/05/03 09:12 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

THAT.......



Is a really good question !!!!



Are you possibly using the following parallel:

.... A child being offered some shrimp from someone for the first time...( For example)....

"would you like a sample?"

"NO!"

"Why not? Have you ever tried it?"

"NO...  But I won't like it! "

"How do you know you won't like it if you've never tried it?"

"I dunno...  He ( pointing to the other kid ) said it was gross! "

---------------------

???  How do you deny something you know nothing of ???

This was just a silly example... lol  :grin:



 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1521016 - 05/05/03 09:46 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I think you've got a perfectly valid question.

The God I don't believe in is the omniscient, omnipotent being who is Creator of the Universe. Or the other descriptions of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God. Since those 3 religions are the vast majority of belief in monotheism I would suspect that most atheists are referring to that particular group of definitions for God.

Also, I've heard other definitions of gods which I don't believe in either. I don't, for example, believe in Zeus, Odin, Brahma, or Amaterasu Omikami.

If you could suggest a reasonable definition of a god (or goddess) and present sufficient evidence of their actual existence I would consider believing in them.

Is that what you're looking for?


--------------------
Happy mushrooming!


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1521031 - 05/05/03 09:52 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The God I don't believe in is the omniscient, omnipotent being who is Creator of the Universe.



You don't believe in love?


--------------------
:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Offlinethestringphish
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1521038 - 05/05/03 09:58 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Everyone believes in God, some just call it Nature




That's true. some belive in god and don't even know it.


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1521041 - 05/05/03 10:00 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

But you see, non-believers have to reject an existing definition of God. If they make up their own definition of God, and then reject it, then what's the point?


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OfflineJssMthrFcknChrst
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1521046 - 05/05/03 10:04 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

People who believe there is no god (complete nonbelievers) would deny the existance of anything that when defined is labeled 'god'.

People who do not believe in a sentient god (partial believers) would deny the existance of any sentient being that when defined is labeld 'god'. These people could still believe in a higher power or non-sentient (life)force that could affect, determine, or manipulate their reality.

This could continue on for each definition of 'god'. Because the idea of 'god' is so subjective, it is rare to find people - even of the same faith - who share a common description or definition of god.

To ask one to define something they don't believe in would require them to describe everything they don't believe in, which is of course impossible.

If I were to define 'god' it would look a little something like this:
god - any person, object, event, concept, or abstract figure in which a person or persons believe(s) to hold a signifigant or all-encompassing understanding, control, and/or supernatural omnipotence over every or particular facet(s) of reality.
God - anything defined as 'god' with the additional attribute of being sentient.


--------------------



Edited by JssMthrFcknChrst (05/05/03 10:06 AM)


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OfflineAmnesiac
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: thestringphish]
    #1521107 - 05/05/03 10:44 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

This is a really good topic, very good question.

I don't believe in things I cannot understand. When I understand something, I believe in it then, but only then. Belief in something incomprehensible, such as an abstract, subjective concept (God) makes absolutely no sense to me.

People have a tendency to want to understand things without having to dig for that understanding. They want so badly to understand things that they take a somewhat-educated guess. They develop hope that their guess is true, and therein develops the problem: Many of us are trying to believe before we know.

The first step is to know, then to believe. If we believe before we know, our path of knowledge becomes 'biased' in a sense. We will then begin to search for evidence which supports a specific theory or 'belief' in order to back it up, and convince ourselves that it's true.

Don't get me wrong. Faith is a word which, to me, represents something very important... however it is a word that I think a lot of people misunderstand. Faith can never be blind. Faith is not a form of hope which makes fantasies become real. When you feel something, and when you know something, then you have faith in it.

Anyways, back to the original question... I wouldn't call myself a "non-believer", and I also wouldn't call myself a "believer". But I'll give you my definition of what the concept of god means to me.

The English word GOD, to me, represents the concept of infinity and eternity. Love, light and pure truth. A higher awareness--THE highest awareness. The being of everything. A great, all-encompassing spirit which all of us are a part of.

I rarely use the word GOD to describe this concept. The reason is that each person has a different understanding of what god is, and they have a tendency to assume that when you say "god" that you are talking about god as they understand god. I usually use the term "higher power" or even "great spirit".But to me, the english word god includes the spirit of the entire cosmos. A great 'force' which includes people, animals, nature, stars, planets, galaxies and any life anywhere in the universe.

**And then there are those who would think that god is a wise old father figure up in the sky, who has 10 things that he doesn't want you to do... and he watches over everybody, every minute of every day, and if you break any of his rules, he has a special place for you... Full of fire and death, where you will go, to burn and suffer and choke and scream and rot, forever and ever until the end of time... Who also loves all of his children.**

**(Paraphrasing of George Carlin's comedy)

There are a frightening number of people in this world who hold this, or a similar concept of god in their imagination.

So, there you have my official definition. GOD: A word which represents an eternal, infinite, infathomable force which encompasses everything in every direction surrounding the source of its creation, which is the greatest mystery of all.

Here's a sentence for you to bend your brain around...

Something cannot come from nothing, because nothing is the same thing as everything.

And I didn't get that from anybody :smile:

Thanks for posting a thought-provoking question!


--------------------
Here we are, in these bodies, on this planet in an endless universe. This is not the extent of who we are... merely an extension of who we really are.


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OfflineAmnesiac
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1521112 - 05/05/03 10:47 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


This could continue on for each definition of 'god'. Because the idea of 'god' is so subjective, it is rare to find people - even of the same faith - who share a common description or definition of god.





I hadn't read your post there, JMFC, but you're right on, and sorry if some of the stuff I said is a ripoff of what you said, I didn't know you had posted before me :smile:

You are right on about that though...


--------------------
Here we are, in these bodies, on this planet in an endless universe. This is not the extent of who we are... merely an extension of who we really are.


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OfflineJssMthrFcknChrst
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Amnesiac]
    #1521130 - 05/05/03 11:06 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

An interesting quote i stumbled upon, I'll be adding it to my sig soon:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." ?Stephen Roberts


--------------------



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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1521143 - 05/05/03 11:20 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." ?Stephen Roberts

"How do I know THIS god (the christian god) is the true god and all other religions' gods are false?"
I asked my pastor this question (though I can't remember the exact words) during catechism class once... he has yet to give me an answer.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineAmnesiac
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1521144 - 05/05/03 11:21 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

A good one indeed


--------------------
Here we are, in these bodies, on this planet in an endless universe. This is not the extent of who we are... merely an extension of who we really are.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1521180 - 05/05/03 12:10 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Dude we don't have to define it...... Believers invent and define all sorts of Gods, propose them to others, and the non-believers say "Nah.. I'm not so sure about that theory, pal. I'm glad you're thinking though."

Which God would you like us to define? lol i don't understand your question..


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/05/03 12:18 PM)


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1521183 - 05/05/03 12:13 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

"How do you deny something you know nothing of ???"

Well man.. lol the kid SAW and KNEW THE SHRIMP EXISTED before he denied it...

How do you accept something you know nothing of ???

The analogy would be more like this, in my opinion:

Person at Market, holding out empty hand: Hey kid, try this shrimp, its really good.
Kid: what shrimp? there's nothing there...
Person: Its invisible shrimp, kid. here, try it.
Kid, seeing Person tilt his hand so if there were a shrimp there, it would have fallen onto Kid's hand: uhh.. ok.. [kid pretends there's a shrimp there and puts it in his mouth]
Person: what do you think?
Kid: uhh dude I didn't really feel anything.. i didn't taste anything either... Your "shrimps" suck - I'm gunna get my mom and we're gunna sue your ass
Person: Security! this kid said he has a bomb!
..............


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/05/03 12:17 PM)


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OfflineDroz
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1521278 - 05/05/03 02:07 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

The God that sits in heaven.


--------------------
Evolution of Time.


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Anonymous

Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Droz]
    #1521293 - 05/05/03 02:25 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

It all happened one day not so long ago that a dog spelled his name backwards and well there you have it. A bunch of humans jumped on it to lead them out of things they could not understand.
They followed this dog cause he knew exactly the way of the universe..
the dog died sooner or later...and everyone just kept spelling his name backwards
and followed everything they could make up to accomodate all the things they could not or ever understand in their poor little white human minds.
then...they all figured out how to attack and kill all those who did not believe in dog...oh I mean god...because they could not understand anything but what their
dead-lying-negative minds could invent...and oh how man can invent...
real and not. Man is the only bad animal...cause he thinks he is not.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1521327 - 05/05/03 03:41 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

alan watts sez:
the which than which there is none whicher...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1521332 - 05/05/03 03:47 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

and then there's james thurber's fable for modern man:
www.mac-2001.com/muse/thur-owl.htm
heh...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1521782 - 05/05/03 09:16 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I'm saying if someone says "God doesn't exist," what does the word God represent? God is a word, a subjective idea. God represents something different to different people. If you don't believe in God, what does the word God represent to you? That is what I am asking.




I would try to see the word according to the one who's asking or arguing, as i don't have, or anyone else has (putting faith aside) a singular true definition for the word.
When talking to believers of judaic/cristian religions, i often see and use the word god as an animistic representation of a higher being, a patriarchal entity that knows what's right and wrong, holding the key to salvation, although my beliefs are much different.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1521816 - 05/05/03 09:30 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

god is the source of all religions


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1522582 - 05/06/03 02:12 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

" I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." ?Stephen Roberts
----------------

That is a very interesting take on the subject!

Nice!




--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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Anonymous

Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1522979 - 05/06/03 04:25 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Thank you all who answered my question. It was not a difficult question to grasp by any means, and certainly is a legitimate one to pose.

Let me illustrate why I am asking this by telling a short story. Me and two friends were tripping on a low dose one time, and the subject of God arose. One of my friends was saying "God doesn't exist, there is no God", etc. It took me some deal of time to even get across to him that the idea he had in his head of God that he was saying didn't exist, was not necessarily the same idea of God that I had in my head and was claming did exist. After a great deal more of pondering this problem, I found that his concept of God played right into the typical Judeo-Christian theology. With a great deal of difficulty I managed to explain to him that there are many, many people in the world who have a concept of God that has absolutely nothing to do with what he thought God was. This was insanely hard to get him to understand, that when a lot of people say "God" they aren't talking about the Judeo-Christian God!

My point is, when you deny the existance of God, you are only denying the existance of the concept the word God evokes in your own mind. This of course, is perfectly alright. I myself deny the existance of the God that the majority of people in the world believe in.

To those who couldn't answer the question, such as Strumpling. Think a little bit harder. The question is in no way unanswerable whether you believe in God or not. If you think it is, let me give you an example.

Say your statement is "I don't believe in little green spacemen from Mars with three dicks."

So what are you really saying? Can you not translate "little green spacemen from Mats with three dicks" into other words? Like "small green martians who have more penises than we do." There is no reason why the word God cannot be replaced with other words to articulate what exactly it is you are denying exists.

What doesn't exist? An omnipotent being? A guy who looks over your life and decides if you go to heaven or hell? The sum total of everything?

Do you see the question now?


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1523534 - 05/06/03 08:50 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

The word God is very unspecific imo.

'God' to me is every living soul in this universe and every dimension. God is contiousness. We are god. The 'larger' God I have seen while tripping- It is a massive ball of contiousness, or soul (living light) composed of many others. Other souls were traveling into it and some out of it. While I was inside it, my contiousnesss melded with it and it felt like pure bliss (ego-death). I then knew without a doubt what 'God' is.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1523749 - 05/06/03 11:30 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

"To those who couldn't answer the question, such as Strumpling. Think a little bit harder. The question is in no way unanswerable whether you believe in God or not."

God is all sorts of definitions that I don't accept..... GENERALLY, when I hear somebody talking about God, and at least get a rough idea of what their definition of God is, I don't believe in the words they tell me, which is why I generally say I don't believe in God..

Are you asking us which definitions of "God" we find most displeasing? Because there are some definitions that I've heard/read for the word "God" that I find kind of acceptable, although I think they stick the label "God" on it so they can be part of the larger crowd - Most major religions have an abusive father-figure kind of image for God, and when people don't fall into one of those major religions, when their theories are in a more "god is existence" type of direction, I feel they shouldn't be labeling "the Everything" or "existence" as "God."


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/06/03 11:35 AM)


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1523791 - 05/06/03 12:20 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah I usually stay away from the word God. It's a dangerous word.


--------------------
:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Adamist]
    #1523929 - 05/06/03 04:00 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

michael valentine smith noted that with earth people's words, the long words are easily defined; it is the short words that are slippery...
~
and after a series of educational adventures on this 3rd planet from the sun, an angry mob of humans killed this "phoney messiah" for telling them that they were god, just as much as he was, and as was every grokking thing...
and his friends gather the remains of their beloved friend, made soup and shared it between them...
and michael finished up his last bit of business on the earth, and went to the human part of the afterlife place to start straightening things out up there...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


Edited by gnrm23 (05/10/03 10:28 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1524065 - 05/06/03 05:47 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

fair enough


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1525155 - 05/07/03 01:42 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Good point. And that need to define, to fix in concept or imagination, is the plight of the 'Sensate [S] Type' in Jungian personality theory. The MBTI research suggests that it is the 'N' type or 'Intuitive' that has far less difficulty with a word like GOD, because the intuitive function is the one by which apprehension of Transcendental Reality is made, and the 'N' function stands opposite from the 'S' function. Just like S types can range from house painter to a Van Gogh, for example, an N type can range from 'woman's intuition' to great mystics.

An S type believer has a tendency to grasp firmly onto doctrines and dogmas, which 'define' the Undefinable, with the serious drawbacks that accompany dogmatic faith: exclusivity and the further tendency to identify an intellectual concept ABOUT GOD with the very Reality GOD. Consequently, one hears proclamations of faith such as 'Jesus is GOD,' instead of the theologically more correct, 'GOD was in Christ.' The first sounds far more static and concrete, the latter indicates some kind of relationship, dynamic or Presence.

An N type can more easily interpolate that 'Christ' means 'one annointed,' (as in chrism, oil) by GOD, and that Annointing is a metaphor for something special that happened to the man Jesus. Furthermore, such understanding, by extension, indicates that GOD operates independendly of Jesus - both before His birth and after. And not only that, but that GOD acts in all people at all times - in the entire universe. Many S type Christians, for example, cannot 'get' GOD apart from the immediate identification with 1st century bearded, Jewish carpenter-rabbi.

To suggest that the whole drama of salvation has probably been taking place on numberless planets, for billions of years, with green-skinned humanoid Messiahs, and perhaps non-humanoid Messiahs, is met with utter HORROR and cries of BLASPHEMY! As if, infinitesimal Earth, alone among billions of stars in our galaxy, which is one of billions of galaxies, is the ONLY point in all of Creation where GOD'S salvation is occuring. Of course, this is all a leap of imagination, but it is also iNtuitive thinking, as S types rarely enjoy fiction or imaginative flights into possibility. Sorry for the ramble :P


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1525440 - 05/07/03 03:40 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

"God" is consciousness, everything living thing..creators and created..combined. This constantly evolves.


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Edited by Shroomism (05/07/03 03:40 AM)


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InvisibleOctopusDr
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1525521 - 05/07/03 04:13 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

everyone is dodging the question.


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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1525567 - 05/07/03 04:30 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I believe man made god out of ignorance and fear. If god made man, then why the hell would he put us here? As for a definition, God is what seperates man from animal. Human's have a need to feel there is something waiting for them when they die, that there is some purpose in life other than to reproduce and propogate the species like all other living things. So ever since we learned to talk, we have been dreaming up all sorts of God's to explain the unexplained and make ourselves feel better about death.


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Anonymous

Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #1525588 - 05/07/03 04:45 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

great answer, agree completely.


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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #1525645 - 05/07/03 05:09 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

"If god made man, then why the hell would he put us here?"
---------------

Everyone uses the word God/god.  It's quite the label that most have come to dislike. 

I am of the opinion, that we wouldn't be able to pronounce the real name. 

So for this reply, I will use the name "_____________" instead of the "g/G" words.

So if ___________ made man........ who the hell says that HE PUT US HERE AGAINST OUR OWN FREE WILL !!!  Maybe YOU came here cause you WANTED to.  :grin:

Oh... and kind of off topic.... well kind of on, but....

Who says that the "Garden of Eden" is a place here on this planet? The HOLY BIBLE sure dosen't say that.

What it does do, is demonstrate an example of creation... I am not of the impression that it means the creation of here ! 

I believe that our planet is near 3 billion years old +/- ....  That sure isn't supported by Eden.

I think, relating Earth and Eden is like comparing apples and oranges. Both "fruits" as in creation...  But two different flavours !!!  :grin:

 


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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1525821 - 05/07/03 05:55 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I really did not follow most of what you said.
Quote:

So if ___________ made man........ who the hell says that HE PUT US HERE AGAINST OUR OWN FREE WILL !!! Maybe YOU came here cause you WANTED to.




God did not put me here, my mother and father did. I did not choose to be born, and I most certainly did not "come here because I wanted to".


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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #1525933 - 05/07/03 06:19 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I really did not follow most of what you said.



Obviously. Thats why you said this.
Quote:

God did not put me here, my mother and father did. I did not choose to be born, and I most certainly did not "come here because I wanted to".




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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #1525960 - 05/07/03 06:25 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Well... I was first replying to a quote and just commenting on how divided everyone's become over a three letter word... So I used a "blank" for a label in my response.

And then, as you say: "God did not put me here, my mother and father did. I did not choose to be born, and I most certainly did not "come here because I wanted to". "

I'll say this... Your parents made it possible for you to get here; they set the "stage" for you... I'll argue though, that either you came here thankfully, or, you didn't really want to, but you still did of your own free will.



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Anonymous

Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Shroomism]
    #1526626 - 05/07/03 10:14 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Shroomism: I agree.

OctopusDr: I only saw a handful of people dodging.

ChiefThunderbong: Man did most likely make God out of ignorance and fear...... the God you are thinking of!

MarkTheGnostic: I am the intuitive type. It still makes no sense to deny the existance of something you have not even minimally defined.

The reason for this post was only to point out that when one denies the existance of "God," they are only denying the existance of their concept of God. So maybe they ought to try on a different concept of God. Instead of dismissing outright any idea based upon the word given to name that idea...... That was my only point. Does it make sense to deny the existance of something because you don't believe such a thing exists? Or does it make sense to deny the existance of something because of what it is called?





Edited by Fiend (05/07/03 10:17 AM)


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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1526667 - 05/07/03 10:28 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

"mommy how'd the stars get up there?"
"uhh.. God put 'em there, dear. Relax and finish your homework."


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/07/03 10:29 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1526672 - 05/07/03 10:31 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

And that sums up every possible view of God there is, eh?


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1526857 - 05/07/03 02:44 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

What is wrong in this picture ?


MAIA


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: MAIA]
    #1526861 - 05/07/03 02:50 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

It should be like this,


MAIA


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1526862 - 05/07/03 02:55 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

It's funny that you said "it makes no sense," and I understand the common usage of 'sense,' but most adults have an immediate emotional reaction - undefined, unarticulated, just emotionally reactive - to the word 'GOD.' It is as though all of the associations gleaned from childhood (after which, most people stopped asking questions or seeking) become condensed into a 'feeling,' which is so discontinuous with 'thinking' that the feeling-laden word is automatically rejected, and the associated 'belief' is negated 'cause it is only a vestigal thought fragment from childhood that SHOULD be rejected, like 'the Old Bearded Guy-in-the-Sky' image of GOD.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Anonymous

Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: MAIA]
    #1528208 - 05/08/03 01:44 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

My answer was going to be "two men touching each other".

:grin:

j/k


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1532761 - 05/09/03 08:11 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Thank you, at least you understand. That need to define goes away once you understand. Definitions are just words, and any "god" soiled by human words is not the God you are looking for.

Sometimes it seems like non-believers are more interested in defining God than believers but BELIEVERS DEFINE GOD, even though we can't exactly put It into words  :tongue:  there really is no need to if you understand.

non-believers are reactionaries. when you define yourself by what you're NOT, then you are being defined by that which you are not. think about it 'non-believers'...

Go ahead and come up with your fancy definitions...  hey, let's make up more things to not believe in! if we can define it, it must mean we understand...
 


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Anonymous

Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1532787 - 05/09/03 08:18 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

God may be beyond words, but denying the existance of something you don't even have a concept of in your head remains absolutely retarded....


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1533490 - 05/09/03 11:26 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

"And that sums up every possible view of God there is, eh?"

oh come on you EFFING *ahem* excuse me...

dude I tried to explain to you that we can't answer that stupid question because there are too many different retarded ideas about God to specifically point one out - looks like you were just waiting for somebody to say something so you could say "oh so thats it hmm?" no of course not - did you not read my other posts? There is almost an infinity of Gods out there dude and I don't care for most of them, so I generally say I don't believe in God.


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Anonymous

Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1533556 - 05/09/03 12:03 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

i see


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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1533557 - 05/09/03 12:03 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

God may be beyond words, but denying the existance of something you don't even have a concept of in your head remains absolutely retarded....





I sooooooooooooooooo agree with this. You put words to what I could only think.


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"this is life changing"

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1534207 - 05/09/03 06:44 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

"God may be beyond words, but denying the existance of something you don't even have a concept of in your head remains absolutely retarded...."

Expecting people to accept a concept that even "believers" can't explain or agree on remains absolutely retarded.


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OfflineJssMthrFcknChrst
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1534286 - 05/09/03 07:27 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

non-believers are reactionaries. when you define yourself by what you're NOT, then you are being defined by that which you are not. think about it 'non-believers'...

Go ahead and come up with your fancy definitions... hey, let's make up more things to not believe in! if we can define it, it must mean we understand...




Do Christians consider themselves non-Hindu, non-Muslim, and non-Athiest? No, Christians view themselves as Christians, which automatically imply those other titles.

Non-believers do not label themselves as such. A non-Christian does not consider themselves as non-Christian, they just don't believe in Christianity. It is the believers that label those who do not believe 'non-believers'.

Most of the fancy definitions for 'god' are made up by those who believe or want to believe in something.

Quote:

God may be beyond words, but denying the existance of something you don't even have a concept of in your head remains absolutely retarded....



Before most people deny something they form some sort of concept of what it is. Who is to blame if one person, attempting to explain their concept of 'god' to another person, fails to impress the complete image of their beliefs? The first person? the second person? or maybe the first person's god?

jssmthrfcknchrst


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1534327 - 05/09/03 07:48 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

excellent :smile:


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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1534536 - 05/09/03 09:05 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Once upon a time scientists believed that there was a substance called "phlogiston" which was contained in other substances, and that the phenomenon known as "fire" was caused by the release of this phlogiston. But experiments showed that phlogiston doesn't exist: fire is caused by oxidation chain-reactions at high temperature. However, you can substitute the phrase "oxidation enthalpy" for "phlogiston" and find that it has some (but not all) of the properties that phlogiston was supposed to have. The main difference is that enthalpy is a measure of electromagnetic potential energy, not a material substance. It would have been easy to just upgrade the definition of phlogiston to mean exactly the same thing as oxidation enthalpy, and continue to use the word "phlogiston". But scientists prefer not to do that because it confuses discussions and muddles thinking.

In a similar way I think using the word "God" in a philosophical context only adds to confusion and muddled thinking. It's better to use more specific words.


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Anonymous

Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1535153 - 05/10/03 12:44 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Before most people deny something they form some sort of concept of what it is.




Indeed, that was the entire point of my post, which was too intense for Strumpling to grasp I guess, even though no one else seemed to have a major problem with it.


Edited by Fiend (05/10/03 12:51 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1535166 - 05/10/03 12:50 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Expecting people to accept a concept that even "believers" can't explain or agree on remains absolutely retarded.




The point of this thread has nothing to do with expecting anyone to accept anyone's concept, although the fact that your lack of reading comprehension skills allowed you to somehow glean that would explain why you feel the need to be so defensive. The point of the thread was for people who don't believe in God to explain what the word God meant to them. Not too difficult, unless you feel threatened for some bizarre reason.


Edited by Fiend (05/10/03 02:15 AM)


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Droz]
    #1535500 - 05/10/03 03:11 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I don't believe that their is a superpowerful force in the universe that defies human logic. Existing always brings up the question in the human mind of "What was BEFORE god?". Anything that involves "god" as a supernatural being, I don't beleive in. I think that humanity creates god/s as we neeed to to enforce morality, to create a sense of community, and something to fall back on. .


I suppose my definition would be a supernatural being (an actual thinking diety, rather than some force i.e.big bang) that created every element of life. One that is omnipotent and eternal. I don't think that their is any suhc thing as"god". i'd go as far as to say that I refute any claim of any god that any religion has that places god as the creator of everything, while also having him as a sentient being


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1535575 - 05/10/03 03:41 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Insults are allowed on this forum now? Cool I didn't know the Be Nice policy was no longer enforced.

FUCK YOU DUDE!

You must understand what I am saying in my posts.... Why would I just define one god when people have given me tons of definitions, most of which are absurd in my opinion? God has multiple definitions - are you expecting somebody to list them all? You want a list of the gods we reject? You do understand that words can have multiple meanings, right? Why then are you continually insulting me and pretending I'm a moron who doesn't know what you're asking?

Define God? You define it - you made it up..... maybe the only reason there are people who don't believe in god is because nobody seems to be able to explain it

Are you trying to get to the point that a person who thinks they don't believe in God may actually believe in a God but they just hadn't heard that definition yet? People use the word God so liberally now there's no use in me saying I don't believe anymore

God is All

hooray ok then i'm a believer, but I think the archaic word "god" shouldn't be used for NEW ideas about how everything got here and what's going on

Let's take a look at conventional views of what God is:
www.dictionary.com
god
n.
God
A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
A very handsome man.
A powerful ruler or despot.

well as I had said, most of these definitions I certainly don't like, however I do believe that very handsome men and powerful rulers exist..... so I'm a believer then right? wow and I didn't even know it. I'll be damned it was just a matter of getting the right definition


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/10/03 03:44 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1535602 - 05/10/03 03:52 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Why would I just define one god when people have given me tons of definitions, most of which are absurd in my opinion? God has multiple definitions - are you expecting somebody to list them all? You want a list of the gods we reject? You do understand that words can have multiple meanings, right? Why then are you continually insulting me and pretending I'm a moron who doesn't know what you're asking?




I didn't insult you, I simply made an observation. As far as I can tell, it still stands as a legitimate observation considering you still don't seem to have ascertained what my question was. I didn't ask you to list every possible definition of the word God that other people have, I simply asked what the word meant to you. If it means multiple things to you, I don't see why it would have been impossible to briefly summarize it. For something as incomprehensibly imposible to answer as you claim it is, no one else seemed to have such extreme difficulty explaining what the word meant to them. No one else was moved to derogatory remarks either, but hey, if you feel like you've expressed yourself, more power to ya.

Quote:

Define God? You define it - you made it up..... maybe the only reason there are people who don't believe in god is because nobody seems to be able to explain it




Maybe if this thread was about what God meant to me I would have named it "My definition of God".

Quote:

Are you trying to get to the point that a person who thinks they don't believe in God may actually believe in a God but they just hadn't heard that definition yet?




I wasn't trying to get to any point. I was simply interested in hearing exactly what the ideas and concepts of God are that people don't believe in.

Quote:

God is All

hooray ok then i'm a believer, but I think the archaic word "god" shouldn't be used for NEW ideas about how everything got here and what's going on




I wouldn't say these alternative ideas of God are anything "NEW".





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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1535616 - 05/10/03 03:58 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

There are too many contradictory ideas about what God is for me to attempt a "general" definition, rofl..

"I don't see why it would have been impossible to briefly summarize it." lol briefly summarize every definition of God into one brief summary? what a useless mess that would be

bye man I'm completely wasting my time talking to you, as are you to me.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/10/03 04:01 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1535626 - 05/10/03 04:03 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Later.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1535646 - 05/10/03 04:13 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think anyone is having trouble with the question. but maybe some are having trouble with the answers?

It's a legitimate question - asking non-believers to define God.

But many of them won't be able to. and even if they do, it will be some meaningless, sunday-school definition of "God" that they rejected in high school. The really honest atheists might say "I can't define God, but WHATEVER it is, I see no evidence for it, so I don't believe it." To leave something undefined isn't 'retarded'... It's better than rejecting an "inaccurate" definition. don't you think?



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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1535657 - 05/10/03 04:17 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I'm gunna give this another shot, as I'm astounded you still don't understand what I'm trying to say:

Since I don't subscribe to any particular religion, I can't "just pick a definition" because I'd be leaving shit out, a fact you poked me with earlier. I can't group them all into one thing either because some definitions of God contradict others. Do you see how somebody who doesn't subscribe to any particular belief would have difficulty in attempting to define what the word "God" means? The word God itself doesn't define anything for somebody who doesn't subscribe to a specific definition. It would be like trying to define the word "is," which is no fun.

"God may be beyond words, but denying the existance of something you don't even have a concept of in your head remains absolutely retarded"

I guess I'm trying to say there are TOO MANY concepts of it in my head from too many definitions for me to accept a legitimate existence of "God."


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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Edited by Strumpling (05/10/03 04:23 AM)


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1535702 - 05/10/03 04:50 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

"The English word GOD, to me, represents the concept of infinity and eternity. Love, light and pure truth. A higher awareness--THE highest awareness. The being of everything. A great, all-encompassing spirit which all of us are a part of."

Sorry - non-believers only.

"If I were to define 'god' it would look a little something like this:
god - any person, object, event, concept, or abstract figure in which a person or persons believe(s) to hold a signifigant or all-encompassing understanding, control, and/or supernatural omnipotence over every or particular facet(s) of reality.
God - anything defined as 'god' with the additional attribute of being sentient."

Sorry - non-believers only.

"'God' to me is every living soul in this universe and every dimension. God is contiousness. We are god. The 'larger' God I have seen while tripping- It is a massive ball of contiousness, or soul (living light) composed of many others. Other souls were traveling into it and some out of it. While I was inside it, my contiousnesss melded with it and it felt like pure bliss (ego-death). I then knew without a doubt what 'God' is."

Sorry - non-believers only.

""God" is consciousness, everything living thing..creators and created..combined. This constantly evolves."

Sorry - non-believers only.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1535710 - 05/10/03 04:55 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

lol I think some of the "believers" and "non-believers" are way closer to sharing the same beliefs than they may understand - the labeling of one's beliefs with the word "God" automatically turns me off though because it requires way more conversation to find out which God they're talking about - if there were separate names for all these ideas I think there would be some surprises when we saw who fit in where..


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1535775 - 05/10/03 05:39 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

The typical Christian thought is that man is made in Gods image. I think it is reversed. I think that MAN made GOD in our image of what we wanted him to be. After all, wouldn't primative man desire a God to pray to? To sacrifice to? To send our dead relatives to? A deity that explaned the entire existance, from every creature to the farthest reaches of our universe, and made us, made man, the center of it? His "children"? And with a being so "wonderful" and powerful, is it any wonder that modern man continues this warm, fuzzy delusion?

jr


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: gnrm23]
    #1535780 - 05/10/03 05:42 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

michael valentine smith noted that with earth people's words, the long words are easily defined; it is the short words that are slippery...
~
and after a series of educatinal adventures on this 3rd planet from the sun, an agry mob of humans killed this phoney messiah for telling them that they were god, just as much as he was, and as was every grokking thing...
and his friends gather the remains of their beloved friend, made soup and shared it between them...
and michael finished up his  last bit of business on the earth, and went to the human part of the afterlife place to start straightening things out up there... 





I grok you completely :smile:

One of the best books ever written.
Jr


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1535916 - 05/10/03 07:02 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

lol I think some of the "believers" and "non-believers" are way closer to sharing the same beliefs than they may understand - the labeling of one's beliefs with the word "God" automatically turns me off




I think you're right. I'm sorry I was a dick to you. After your last posts I see more like what you are saying.


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1536003 - 05/10/03 07:50 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I do agree with Strumpling.  I can't define what  I don't belive in.  I just don't belive in anything that is god-like :smile:  Anything relating to dieties, I should say, I don't believe in. I don't "not belive" in Yahweh, Allah, Shiva, etceteras, it's the entier lot of them.

Jr


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1536276 - 05/10/03 10:19 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

"I think you're right."

heh I don't know about being "right" about anything but defining God (edit:added italics :tongue: )without context is definitely a difficult task for me :wink:

"I'm sorry I was a dick to you."

Apology certainly accepted.. I think I took most of it a bit more passionately at first than you would have intended lol

"After your last posts I see more like what you are saying."

Excellent - I realized I was getting clouded and forced myself to kind of settle down and focus on articulating the data I was trying to express.. With certain topics I can get a bit frustrated as everybody saw heh but hey I'm just a small primate :wink: :blush: I apologize as well.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/10/03 10:21 AM)


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1536377 - 05/10/03 11:47 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Why must God argue with itself? We should all just externalize our minds and link them together, I think we would function more harmoniously that way. Okay who has the etheric dagger?


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Adamist]
    #1536412 - 05/10/03 12:17 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

stop calling this God :mad: :cool: :grin:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1536816 - 05/10/03 07:50 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I think that the definition of God should certaintly include, and be recognized as such, that includes a diety somewhere. If "we" are all something, or our consciousness is "something", lets not call it God, just to cut down on the confusion? Shall we?

Jr


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1536907 - 05/10/03 08:57 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I still like my answer. God is what humans use to seperate themselves from other animals.


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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #1536924 - 05/10/03 09:10 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

God is what humans use to seperate themselves from other animals.



That's a very interesting idea ChiefThunderbong.

Clearly humans are different from other animals, and all pre-scientific worldviews explained this by postulating special relationships between humans and the various gods that were supposed to be in charge of running the universe.

No other animals seem to have created any similar metaphysics as far as we know. So humans are special after all. And our separation from the other animals remains to be explained. Why are the other animals not like us?


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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1537101 - 05/10/03 10:57 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Why are the other animals not like us?



Now that is an interesting question right there. Personally I feel it has more to do with luck than anything else. Monkeys started to walk upright, and then continued on to develop larger brains. What really gave us the edge over other animals was our ability to make and use tools. Shit man, I don't know....we really could start a whole new thread with this.


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Yeah spinnin' around again
yea caught in a tailspin


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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #1537124 - 05/10/03 11:15 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe we have better developed chakras as well?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Murex]
    #1537260 - 05/11/03 12:34 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

God can be broken down into two forms. A theistical form of God, in which god is an intervening God, caring for and tending to his creation, or a diestical form of God, in which God created man and moved on, or at the least, does not concern himself with the affairs of man. I think that, using these definitions, I can say that I am atheistical, and most likley adiestical. I personally don't belive in any "higher being" or diety, but IF I was to, based solely on my interpretaions and beliefs of what god must be, I'd have to say that god is diesitcal. Why would God even care what man does?

Jr


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1537359 - 05/11/03 01:31 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Johnny, those aren't definitions. They are images of how the human race has come to create our view of a higher deity. Besides, you are also forgetting the 'pantheistic' God, in which he is everything, so such a God would be nature, would be us, would be existance. But.....

If God does not exist in your mind, then the definition does not exist either.



Edited by 3MJ3 (05/11/03 01:35 AM)


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1537430 - 05/11/03 02:05 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

"If God does not exist in your mind, then the definition does not exist either."

"the definition?" There isn't just one definition; that's the problem - For a "believer" there is basically just one definition: Theirs! But for a "non-believer," there's a whole shitload of them because we don't focus on just one


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/11/03 02:07 AM)


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1537439 - 05/11/03 02:10 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I'm using websters dictionary here people, learn to discern what is"fact" and what isn't. Also, if the two possibilities I mentioned include a god that DOES intervene, and one that DOESNT intervene, haven't I covered every basis? How could their be another possible contingency? If he ever intervenes, he is a theistal god, if he doesn't he isn't.  It's just that simple :smile:

Jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1537463 - 05/11/03 02:21 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

dude there are more than just two different beliefs in God....


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1537464 - 05/11/03 02:21 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Strumpling:

The definition is only in the believers mind, that's why one who does not believe has no definition, because that definition cannot be defined linguistically. It only makes sense that something that is said to be beyond words (God-omnipotent), cannot be 'defined' by them. The definition, in the truest sense for the believer, is immaterial, beyond words. That is how all numinous experiences are 'defined' to the individual who experiences them. So what I was trying to say is.....the truest way of defining God is by experiencing 'it', that spiritual connection.....thus only one who has faith knows this.

Johnny R:

But what if he just is, regardless of intervention. That is what pantheism is. Look it up.


Edited by 3MJ3 (05/11/03 02:24 AM)


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1537475 - 05/11/03 02:27 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Strumpling - Lately on the shroomery I feel like i'm talking to children. Are oyu SURE you are of age to be here? No matter WHAT defintion of god you have, he either intervenes with human affairs, or he doesn't. It's that simple. GOtta be one or the other, can't be neither, can't be both. ONE OR THE OTHER. JFC i'm not making this shit up, I live 5 miles from a seminary and I know the priests very well. Can you give me a defiiniton of god that doesn't intervene, and that does intervene? Of corse you can't, read what I have to say before you critiize me.

JR


3MJ3 - I'm still waiting for your reply as to Judiasm. I called Rabbi Garfunkel to come back over here, when she comes over I'll have her type it to you. Do you believe her? hm? And if God just IS, then he is a DEISTICAL GOD because HE DOESNT.. FUCKING.. INTERFERE!!! JESUS CHRIST... dont' you all understand simple semantics (note: thats word usage, not semetics, as in jewish religin, which ironically, you don't seem to understand either)

www.dictionary.com look up "theism" and "deism"

Then post to me. Actually, don't.


jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1537485 - 05/11/03 02:31 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Pantheism doesn't belive in "a" god, it believes that hte universe and all of existence are to be revered. This doesn't have even a god that is CAPABLE of interfereing, therefore, their is no DIETY to be involved. It's saying that existance is god. You have to understand that GOD isn't that. GOD, to you, might be that, but it is just your choice of words. I can call the entire universe "car", and tell you how I belive in"car", but that doesn't make it a car.

Jr


--------------------
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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1537487 - 05/11/03 02:32 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

pan?the?ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pnth-zm)
n.
A doctrine identifying the Deity with the universe and its phenomena.
Belief in and worship of all gods.

-

Again, we are left with a diety of some sort. Pantieism, from that definition, sounds more like stupidity than religion (or are they the same...)


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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1537506 - 05/11/03 02:44 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

JR - there was no response to your question about judaism, I was simply pointing out poor choice of words really, nothing more. I understand what you are saying now, but at the time it seemed appropriate to point out the error.

You are right, that usually there is a deity that either interferes or doesn't. Pantheism is different in that respect, because it believes 'god' is us, he is interference if there is any. You see, so really the idea of a higher creator or element shall we say in this view of pantheism neither interferes nor does it not interfere. It just is. It's not so much a religion.....actually taoism would be a perfect example of pantheism. Besides interference is such a negative term, perpetuated by western culture. Taoists believe this 'god' which is described as the 'perfect essence' is in harmony with nature and reality, so one cannot exist without the other. It could be seen as interference.......

i&I


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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1537510 - 05/11/03 02:47 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I'm twenty two you insulting fuck. All I was trying to say was that there are other "variables" with various gods, not just intervention, so attempting to define God by just talking about whether or not it intervenes or doesn't intervene isn't going to help separate all these different ideas about God.

There's no need to talk shit, scumbag. See? Insulting you doesn't make my posts any easier to read, does it, little boy?

and yeah with pantheism God doesn't intervene or not intervene because "He" is "The Everything," which encapsulates intervention without necessarily "using" it.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/11/03 02:49 AM)


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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1537523 - 05/11/03 02:52 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Here's another thing......

If pantheism believes that some form of higher being or entity is all and everything universally.......

then doesn't that include all conceptual terminology and ideology including the 'states' of interfering and non-interference? So then in this way, the higher entity which is of universal consistency, is both interfering and not....and everything else :smile:

i&I


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1537524 - 05/11/03 02:53 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

yeah thats what I was trying to say in the last part of my above post - well-put, man.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/11/03 02:54 AM)


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Offlinesoylent_green
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1537529 - 05/11/03 02:54 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

THAT.......



Is a really good question !!!!



Are you possibly using the following parallel:

.... A child being offered some shrimp from someone for the first time...( For example)....

"would you like a sample?"

"NO!"

"Why not? Have you ever tried it?"

"NO...  But I won't like it! "

"How do you know you won't like it if you've never tried it?"

"I dunno...  He ( pointing to the other kid ) said it was gross! "

---------------------

???  How do you deny something you know nothing of ???

This was just a silly example... lol  :grin:



 





HAHAHAHA...Deiymiyan your the bestest!


--------------------
What fun is it in Nirvana while other beings are suffering?


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Offline3MJ3
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1537535 - 05/11/03 02:58 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Strumpling, I agree with your post that the question lies beyond whether 'God' is an interfering or non-interfering one.

But Johnny was partly right in that these aren't 'views' which is what you were getting at before when you said that there are more than two. You were saying that the idea of a higher creator has manifested himself in more than two ways.

JR was saying that the involvement of such a God in our understanding is either interfering or not...he was referring to the involvment rather than the actual image...so you see this little conflict between the two of you is brought by miscommunication.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: soylent_green]
    #1537538 - 05/11/03 03:00 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I don't know man....... I don't think I like that analogy at all, Soylent..

It implies that anybody who "doesn't Believe" has never even looked into it, wasn't RAISED catholic as I was, has never been a believer in the past as I was, and doesn't know shit about whatever religion you wish to apply that to. Many "non-believers" have indeed looked into and practiced numerous religions in the past


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offline3MJ3
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1537565 - 05/11/03 03:11 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I agree. And that goes the other way around for people who haven't been raised in such an environment. I think many more people than are portrayed have some sort of spiritual connection or a longing for one, through research and discovery of different beliefs/ideologies. Ultimately, you can't say only if you are a part of the physical establishment (the church), will you ever know (metaphysical, spiritual). It really only is brought about by the thirst for wisdom through a religous doctrine, rather than the rituals which have been cultivated over history to compliment the heritage of such beliefs.

Hey Strumpling, I was also raised Catholic. My views with regards to my belief in God are very different. I decided to accept what was appropriate for my understanding to accept God's role in my life. I knew many people who gave up believing, so it just goes to show you that the physical aspects of a religion do not cultivate faith.


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1537592 - 05/11/03 03:27 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry for the insult, i was in a bad mood and it was uncalled for :-) What I mean to say is that one of the most important questions that we can have about "god:, whatever that means for us, is wether or not he is a thetistical god, or a deistical God. If their is a deistical god, then their might as well, for humans, be no god at all. He created us, perhaps in his image, and now he is on to other creations. No amount of prayer or sacrifice or penance will ever cause god to intervene in our matters. If this is how God is, it changes EVERYTHING. Every major religion is nullified, becaues if god doesn't interfere or intervene, why bother praying to him? Why bother even acknowledging his existance?


I was raised Catho-holic too :-)

jr


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1537593 - 05/11/03 03:27 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I thought he was saying "there are two types of Gods - those who intervene and those who don't."

I was replying to that (whether I read it right or not..) to say that there aren't just two types of God.. intervention is just one "variable" in the orgy of idiologies surrounding various Gods.

It reminded me of when somebody says "there are two types of people in this world..." its like dude no there aren't.. but hey I'm just a stupid kid with a lack of reading comprehension so I could be completely misunderstanding everything everybody ever expresses.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/11/03 03:30 AM)


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1537703 - 05/11/03 04:20 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

"...It implies that anybody who "doesn't Believe" has never even looked into it..."
---------------

Just a clarification for you [ strumpling, and others ].....  Many people don't take the time to really investigate something for themselves and simply jump on the band wagon cause someone else said so...

This was an illustration of a closed mind.

With a closed mind, you don't  get very far... and even miss out on some potentially wonderful things as a consequence.

That is what i was refering to.

Many people pull the wool over their very own eyes.

:grin:

 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



Edited by Deiymiyan (05/11/03 04:25 AM)


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Offline3MJ3
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1537716 - 05/11/03 04:25 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I disagree, I think there are more people than you think who have TRIED to understand and investigate their own inner spirituality but who have given up.

What you are referring to sounds alot like Nietzsche - slave morality.


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Anonymous

Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1537717 - 05/11/03 04:26 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Pipe down!  Back the fuck off, before I slap the taste out of your mouth!  :mad:

:grin:

j/k

As you can see I am testing the policy.  I have been asked by a member to try it and see.  I am willing to try anything if it serves the bulk of the membership well.  So I am relaxing it just a hair.  If it works and things don't get too out of hand we'll keep it relaxed.  If it doesn't I'll have to go back to being strict.  I don't want to do that anyway.  It is too much work. :wink:

Cheers, 


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Anonymous

Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1537723 - 05/11/03 04:30 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

No matter WHAT defintion of god you have, he either intervenes with human affairs, or he doesn't.




You can't understand the fallacy of what you've just said because you seem to completely lack the ability to entertain a concept of God that is not built upon the Sunday school image you have. I have explained the answers to your questions as you have asked them several times, at which point you then fall back on saying "oh, this is about an argument with my cousin, you have to adopt an asinine standpoint on god or i dont want to talk about it", then you come back and say THAT? Markos was right, you are having a monologue with yourself and making no effort to think outside of your current concept. So why are you bothering talk with others? I HAVE answered your questions, can you not see that? If everything a human does IS GOD'S WILL, because every human IS PART OF GOD, what is the answer to this question? Do you think you've come up with a question that has never been asked before? THE QUESTION ONLY APPLIES TO CERTAIN CONCEPTS OF GOD. As do all of your questions. Yet there you just made a completely asinine blanket statement. If interfering with himself makes God an interfering God, I guess that is your answer, yet when it's posed in that context the statement is exposed for what it is - moot.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1537731 - 05/11/03 04:36 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I really don't understand how you deduce slave morality out of what I wrote.

Read it again, and notice the child's closed mind.

... and then tell me again that it has to do with slave morality. 

Then again... maybe if you explained slave morality...  I've never encountered that term before.

Regardless...  That example, still, was the illustration of a closed mind.


LOL

:grin:


   


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1537800 - 05/11/03 05:28 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

we are playin it cool mr m...playin it cool :wink:


--------------------
get it all together get like birds of a feather


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Anonymous

Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #1537849 - 05/11/03 05:50 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Thank you Sole. :smile:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1538266 - 05/11/03 09:01 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Ya know, it might help your obsession to have intellectual responses to your inquiry by paying attention to the older tradition of classical Hinduism. There, the understanding, paradoxical as it is, that GOD and GODHEAD, the Personal and the Transpersonal exist as ONE, simultaneously. Saguna Brahman is GOD with attributes, with personality and Who intervenes in the INNER LIFE of humans. Nirguna Brahman is GOD without attributes, transcends any human conception of personality, and is absolutely impassive and Transcendent.

If you are looking for theophanies - for Old Testament-like descriptions of a localized mountain deity who routinely suspends natural law with supernatural phenomena (before later sophisticated thought equated YHVH with the Universal
Creator), then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Transcendental Nature of GOD. The intervention is between the Spirit (the Being of GOD), and contingent beings (namely us) whose spiritual nature is described Biblically as 'the image and likeness' of GOD. GOD'S interventions, covenants, reponse to prayer, occurs on this level, in the "still, small voice within," not directly on insentient, inanimate creation. If GOD responds to our desires, it is because those desires are GOD's desires - GOD'S Will, to use the common sense of it - not OUR egocentric desires apart from GOD'S Will. GOD is not our errand-boy or our genie. If it isn't clear yet...what WE want doesn't matter. It's 'GOD'S Will' that matters, or re-stated, 'what is,' or 'Reality' - that which actually IS happening. We either humbly 'submit' to Reality (hence Islam=submission), or we fail to accept Reality.

Ultimately, all of OUR desires constitute who we are as 'ego,' and we, as ego perish completely. If anything continues, it is the Covenant, or the Communion of Spirit with spirit. To the extent that we Realize this, we 'have' Eternal Life in us. The 'us' dies, the Eternal Life remains. It is a paradox.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblesunyata
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1538421 - 05/11/03 10:38 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

As Carl Jung once said, religion is the best defense against a spiritual experience.

I think the reason a lot of people use the word "God" when what they are talking about is the ultimate spiritual reality, the state of the universe as something that neither exists nor does not exist and both exists and doesn't, the unspeakable as Wittgenstein called it, is because that's the word that a lot of great teachers throughout our history used. I think in a way it was an attempt to reclaim the word "God" like homosexuals have reclaimed the word "queer" or black people the word "nigger". Jesus said "God" when what he meant was more like satori because he was talking to people who believed in a vengeful old bearded man who hurls lightning bolts at bad people and casts them into a fiery eternity, meanwhile rewarding all the nice people with harp music and cloud pillows. How was he supposed to communicate his message to these folks? He said, look, God isn't up there judging you, he is in all of us, one with everything, in me, split this rock and he is there. I AM GOD, I am the rock. And so are you, only you don't realize it because you're too busy worrying about being a sinner. So know that you are forgiven, and worry not for the morrow because now is all there is, and knowing this, truly knowing it, is to enter the Kingdom of God. The kingdom of god is enlightenment, enlightenment is a state of absolute subjectivity, the universe knowing with no objects of knowledge, a concept that cannot be conceptualized by our minds which are constrained by the dualisms of language.

Now Jesus wasn't the first to use the concept of "God" as a metaphor for "that thing"; Hindus and Buddhists did it, everyone has done it. The mystical Christian tradition, the greatest minds of the Christian church like Eckhart or St Theresa, they are talking about that thing when they say God. All spiritual experiences come from direct realization of this state, which the human mind seems to be capable of accessing through all kinds of methods from mediatation to starvation to entheogenic plant ingestion (check out the "thumbprint" thread in the other drugs forum for discussion). This is the spiritual experience that religion is such a great defense against. The word "God", like all words, is a barrier to realization because whether we admit it or not we constantly have our words mixed up with reality, and through language we run into ridiculous paradoxical questions that the logical positivists declared were irrational and meaningless. It's like the Godel's incompleteness theorem of language. But reality is not the words we choose to describe it, it is forever just an inch beyond the grasp of our dualistic minds...

So anyway, I think that's where all the confusion over this word lies, in that millions an dmillions of people, from all religious backgrounds, still conceptualize some variant of the old daddy God in the sky, either acting in our affairs or not, but still with a personality or a presence separate from ours, while a few get the gist of what Jesus actually meant. Even fewer have ever realized it directly. I think Jesus also used the word God partly to avoid getting killed while converting people to this crazy new way of thinking, but we don't have to worry about that anymore (or at least right now), so I think those who are confused by the use of the term raise a valid point: why cling to the word when it causes so much misunderstanding? I guess knowing this particular definition helps me understand the Gospel of Thomas a bit better, and to not ignore the wisdom of some ancient traditions because of their more hokey appendages, but I would be willing to try out new words. Plenty have been suggested: spirit, godhead, sunyata, and so on, but ultimately they have just as much use as "God" does, because they are all metaphor.


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Invisiblesunyata
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1538435 - 05/11/03 10:48 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

A little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth man's minds about to religion.
- Francis Bacon

The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge.
- Albert Einstein


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Anonymous

Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: sunyata]
    #1538509 - 05/11/03 11:45 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I think in a way it was an attempt to reclaim the word "God" like homosexuals have reclaimed the word "queer" or black people the word "nigger".




That my friend, is a brilliant interpretation. Very nice post.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1538567 - 05/11/03 12:42 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

"Just a clarification for you [ strumpling, and others ]..... Many people don't...."

That's very fascinating.... Many people kill themselves every year too

"Read it again, and notice the child's closed mind."

how stimulating you are


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/11/03 12:45 PM)


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1538573 - 05/11/03 12:48 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

sorry for yelling :blush:

I'll try and keep my ego at bay


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Anonymous

Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1538636 - 05/11/03 03:46 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

God is, "That than which nothing greater can be thought." - Anselm


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Offline3MJ3
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: ]
    #1538758 - 05/11/03 06:21 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Deimyan, sorry I couldn't respond sooner but I had gone to sleep........

Slave morality was a concept developed by Nietzsche which he used to critisize the Christian church with. He basically stated that those individuals who are 'weak' and 'less robust' have to find direction in a system that TELLS them what to do. In other words they follow. You were saying that these individuals with closed minds simply join the bad wagon without any investigation into the matter.....I think you were referring to the majority of so-called 'believers' of various religions. Maybe I was wrong. Slave morality also entertains the pragmatism that can follow with the 'mob effect', the everybody else is doing it so I should too, thus an ignorant and closed mind.

The second part to Nietzsche's idea of slave morality, is the role of 'Master morality' which is just the opposite. These are those that use rationality to see that morality is all relative to ourselves and the phenomenal world around us, and is only affected as such, so we must take control and believe firmly in morals we concluded were right, independant of authority (the church). The master moralists were those who were actually living in Nietzsche's view. It kind of goes along with Sartre's view of bad faith, where the slave moralists would be in such a state.

I don't nessecarily agree with this view though.......I have to attend church at the moment :smile:

i&I


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: sunyata]
    #1538803 - 05/11/03 07:01 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, I agree with most of your words, and I well appreciate Thomas and other 'Gnostic' gospels, but none of the non-canonical works that stress a fully realized (the Kingdom of GOD is fully Present, but unrealized by most [especially the hylic and psychic 'level' believers]) deny GOD as a Living Reality. This is the main thing - GOD is a Living Reality ("Living Water," wherein water symbolizes life), and by Living - Aware. Even Eternal Awareness, and not limited. It is us that suffer limitation.

Like background radiation, still detectable from the Big Bang, GOD in His Immanence is only faintly perceived in creation. Outside of space-time, we may, as Paul said, see Him face-to-face, but here, in this veil of illusion, 'in a glass, darkly.' Paul's Christ is the Resurrected Christ, not the Earthly Jesus. His faith (paradoxically known as 'by faith alone,' so touted by Luther and all of Protestantism) was given to him through mystical experience, through Light and through Ecstasis ("...in the body or out of the body I know not...caught up to the third heaven...")

There is GOD, and there is humankind's experience of GOD, which of course does not shape GOD, but the other way around. The bottom line for me is that the Creator is infinitely 'more' than the creation, and insofar as our awareness is personal, GOD, Who IS Awareness/Consciousness, is AT LEAST personal, but so completely exceeds our human type of personality that I, and others, prefer to refer to GOD as Transpersonal. This word at least helps to discern from that which is Impersonal - less than personal - like lower-than-mammalian life forms.

Lastly, unlike a cosmic religion like Buddhism, that does not value the historical process as the 'handiwork of the LORD,' the yet-to-be-realized eschatology of Biblical faith holds meaning. Now, this is not my bent - looking for the 'promises' of the prophets to be manifested in history, or the restoration of Jerusalem, in that whole Middle Eastern sentiment. This is all too provincial for my taste in Universality, but I do acknowledge that all of this creation IS teleological. It has design, purpose, direction. It is not meaningless, though I do not know the overarching meaning. Creation is not just 'stuff happening,' which is a ridiculous marginalization given by those who just can't handle the immensity of the realization that 'it all means something, but I'll never have the whole meaning, so forgetaboutit.' Pierre Teilhard de Chardin thought that the entire creation was being transubstantiated into Christ - into pure consciousness of GOD - the culmination of which he called "The Omega Point." As time passes, this thought becomes more and more satisfying to me. Peace.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblesunyata
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1538945 - 05/11/03 08:57 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Markos, I thank you for your reply. My post was not specifically directed at you but I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I have learned a lot from your posts here at the Shroomery, and I bow to your superior knowledge in matters theological.

I too have read some Teilhard de Chardin, his writing is very exciting to me. I have loosely interpreted his conception of the omega point as the universe becoming fully self-aware, knowing itself, sort of the culmination of the growth of consciousness that began at the birth of the universe. I think there is a teleological destination for the universe as well, although I think of it more as a latent potential that is not necessarily "destined" to occur. It seems all of evolution, from matter to life to mind to spirit, is headed in this general direction.

I still hesitate to think of "God" or whatever as having a "will", however, or of being any sort of particular aspect of the universe that does anything to another aspect. I think of God more as Tillich's Ground of Being or Alan Watts' "squiggles". I am having a difficult time putting this concept into words (no surpirse there), so I am going to take some time out and come back a little later when my thoughts are a bit clearer. Peace be with you too.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1539162 - 05/11/03 11:26 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

It is easiest to show a point by way of example....  I don't understand why you don't just accept what I said for what it was... an illustration.

"Many people kill themselves every year too" >>>  What do you expect me to say to that?  YES... I know !


"how stimulating you are " .....  Perhaps I'm misinterpreting this...  But I'm taking this as an attack... 

Check this out....  I roll with your punch...  and counter with a firm grip by the scruff of your neck....  You have "two seconds" to say "uncle" before I toss you into the arena.  :tongue:

:shocked:

 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1539196 - 05/11/03 11:44 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

"Slave morality was a concept developed by Nietzsche ..."
------------

Thank-you. 

I didn't know that.


I have come to think that the men of the church, back then, and further back still, have largely taken advantage of religion...  THey used it  as a means to stay in power over the people.

I even hold on to the notion that some things may have been "fudged", sort of, to make sure that they don't lose their positions of power.

To me that seems like a slave morality...  The people, as a result, would have been taken advantage of....

Many seem to have noticed the injustices [is that a word?] that have stemmed from the "rigteous" ...  Notice even relatively quite recently...  episodes with priests and...  kids.

Many have had not so good memories of the church... 

Is it possible that this may have something to do with a large portion of the population wanting to toss those belief behind? 

I just wish to understand this... 

I haven't been one to attend church very often...  That dosen't mean that I have no beliefs or morals...  I just haven't been fed by the clergy.

A slave morality, in my opinion, will not work over a longer period.  Either everyone will choose, democratically, to be a part of something... 

... I find though...  that there are limited choices at this time... 

Maybe everyone's waiting to chose the right thing together.

:confused:

 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1539251 - 05/12/03 12:11 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

"It is easiest to show a point by way of example.... I don't understand why you don't just accept what I said for what it was... an illustration."

That's fantastic but you're still implying that people who reject religion are close-minded children who have never ACCEPTED religion in the past and have never showed interest or obtained any knowledge on any religious subject. I know an anthropologist who specializes in studying religious practices - he is an athiest. Is he close-minded too, just because he doesn't believe in God? He knows more about most religions than you know about your OWN, most likely; so please stop implying that non-believers aren't willing to at least reduce their ignorance on the subject before they decide to not accept it as 100% truth.

edit: changed "anybody" in first sentance to just "people," and changed context of sentence to plural..


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/12/03 12:24 AM)


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1539351 - 05/12/03 01:01 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I think there are many reasons there is sush a schism in humanity when it comes to God- There are misentrepratations, bias of religious leaders, money and power involved with organized religion, stupid 'sheep' that are easily subjectable to authority and many other reasons more.

The best way imo to combat all this confusion, is to raise your children free of religion until they are old enough to think for themselves. I wish I was raised this way, I had to learn the hard way.

:tongue:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1539399 - 05/12/03 01:19 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

"....but you're still implying that people who reject religion are close-minded children who have never ACCEPTED religion in the past and have never showed interest or obtained any knowledge on any religious subject."
-----------------

OK....  since your signature, at this time, says it... im going to yell at you...

" READ THE PARALLEL AGAIN !!!!  THE KID SAID NO TO IT BECAUSE THE OTHER KID SAID IT WAS NO GOOD !"

THe implication was NOT that people who reject existing religions are closed minded... THEY HAVE SAMPLED AND DECIDED THAT IT "TASTES" NOT TO THEIR LIKING !!!

This was an illustration how closed mindedness manifests itself.  With a closed mind, you dare not sample the possible wonders that might be available! And if you don't sample...  you don't know what you are missing... No one is "force feeding" anything here... just so you don't get the wrong idea...

The other kid said that it was bad and affected the first kids desire so seek new experiences.

THAT IS AN ILLUSTARTION OF CLOSED MINDED THINKING !

Am I alone on that thought?

:confused:



 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1539497 - 05/12/03 02:13 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I understand what you're saying... many people will mistake somebody else's opinion for fact. Just like how kid A convinced kid B that shrimp A was no good BEFORE kid B had ever experienced it, person A can convince person B that religion A is good before person B even understands it.

I was just trying to say that many athiests have previously been religious - they HAVE already tasted the shrimp PERSONALLY.

I agree with you though that SOME people will just hop on with what somebody else believes, because the belief is already laid out for them, minimizing thought. I think many people do this with organized religion: "hey that sounds about right - I should sign up with these guys"


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1539591 - 05/12/03 02:53 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Ha ha ha... Ya.. it sort of reminds me of that game... LEMMINGS  :tongue:

And I agree with you that it is SOME..  If I made it sound like ALL, I was not expressing it correctly.

:grin:
 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1539717 - 05/12/03 04:03 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I read it as "most" due to the confidence of the post


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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