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OfflineJohnnyRespect
Nomadic Wanderer
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Murex]
    #1537260 - 05/11/03 12:34 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

God can be broken down into two forms. A theistical form of God, in which god is an intervening God, caring for and tending to his creation, or a diestical form of God, in which God created man and moved on, or at the least, does not concern himself with the affairs of man. I think that, using these definitions, I can say that I am atheistical, and most likley adiestical. I personally don't belive in any "higher being" or diety, but IF I was to, based solely on my interpretaions and beliefs of what god must be, I'd have to say that god is diesitcal. Why would God even care what man does?

Jr


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Offline3MJ3
i&I
Registered: 03/01/03
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1537359 - 05/11/03 01:31 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Johnny, those aren't definitions. They are images of how the human race has come to create our view of a higher deity. Besides, you are also forgetting the 'pantheistic' God, in which he is everything, so such a God would be nature, would be us, would be existance. But.....

If God does not exist in your mind, then the definition does not exist either.



Edited by 3MJ3 (05/11/03 01:35 AM)


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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1537430 - 05/11/03 02:05 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

"If God does not exist in your mind, then the definition does not exist either."

"the definition?" There isn't just one definition; that's the problem - For a "believer" there is basically just one definition: Theirs! But for a "non-believer," there's a whole shitload of them because we don't focus on just one


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/11/03 02:07 AM)


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1537439 - 05/11/03 02:10 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I'm using websters dictionary here people, learn to discern what is"fact" and what isn't. Also, if the two possibilities I mentioned include a god that DOES intervene, and one that DOESNT intervene, haven't I covered every basis? How could their be another possible contingency? If he ever intervenes, he is a theistal god, if he doesn't he isn't.  It's just that simple :smile:

Jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1537463 - 05/11/03 02:21 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

dude there are more than just two different beliefs in God....


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offline3MJ3
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1537464 - 05/11/03 02:21 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Strumpling:

The definition is only in the believers mind, that's why one who does not believe has no definition, because that definition cannot be defined linguistically. It only makes sense that something that is said to be beyond words (God-omnipotent), cannot be 'defined' by them. The definition, in the truest sense for the believer, is immaterial, beyond words. That is how all numinous experiences are 'defined' to the individual who experiences them. So what I was trying to say is.....the truest way of defining God is by experiencing 'it', that spiritual connection.....thus only one who has faith knows this.

Johnny R:

But what if he just is, regardless of intervention. That is what pantheism is. Look it up.


Edited by 3MJ3 (05/11/03 02:24 AM)


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Registered: 04/17/03
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1537475 - 05/11/03 02:27 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Strumpling - Lately on the shroomery I feel like i'm talking to children. Are oyu SURE you are of age to be here? No matter WHAT defintion of god you have, he either intervenes with human affairs, or he doesn't. It's that simple. GOtta be one or the other, can't be neither, can't be both. ONE OR THE OTHER. JFC i'm not making this shit up, I live 5 miles from a seminary and I know the priests very well. Can you give me a defiiniton of god that doesn't intervene, and that does intervene? Of corse you can't, read what I have to say before you critiize me.

JR


3MJ3 - I'm still waiting for your reply as to Judiasm. I called Rabbi Garfunkel to come back over here, when she comes over I'll have her type it to you. Do you believe her? hm? And if God just IS, then he is a DEISTICAL GOD because HE DOESNT.. FUCKING.. INTERFERE!!! JESUS CHRIST... dont' you all understand simple semantics (note: thats word usage, not semetics, as in jewish religin, which ironically, you don't seem to understand either)

www.dictionary.com look up "theism" and "deism"

Then post to me. Actually, don't.


jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Registered: 04/17/03
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1537485 - 05/11/03 02:31 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Pantheism doesn't belive in "a" god, it believes that hte universe and all of existence are to be revered. This doesn't have even a god that is CAPABLE of interfereing, therefore, their is no DIETY to be involved. It's saying that existance is god. You have to understand that GOD isn't that. GOD, to you, might be that, but it is just your choice of words. I can call the entire universe "car", and tell you how I belive in"car", but that doesn't make it a car.

Jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
Nomadic Wanderer
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1537487 - 05/11/03 02:32 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

pan?the?ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pnth-zm)
n.
A doctrine identifying the Deity with the universe and its phenomena.
Belief in and worship of all gods.

-

Again, we are left with a diety of some sort. Pantieism, from that definition, sounds more like stupidity than religion (or are they the same...)


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Offline3MJ3
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1537506 - 05/11/03 02:44 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

JR - there was no response to your question about judaism, I was simply pointing out poor choice of words really, nothing more. I understand what you are saying now, but at the time it seemed appropriate to point out the error.

You are right, that usually there is a deity that either interferes or doesn't. Pantheism is different in that respect, because it believes 'god' is us, he is interference if there is any. You see, so really the idea of a higher creator or element shall we say in this view of pantheism neither interferes nor does it not interfere. It just is. It's not so much a religion.....actually taoism would be a perfect example of pantheism. Besides interference is such a negative term, perpetuated by western culture. Taoists believe this 'god' which is described as the 'perfect essence' is in harmony with nature and reality, so one cannot exist without the other. It could be seen as interference.......

i&I


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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1537510 - 05/11/03 02:47 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I'm twenty two you insulting fuck. All I was trying to say was that there are other "variables" with various gods, not just intervention, so attempting to define God by just talking about whether or not it intervenes or doesn't intervene isn't going to help separate all these different ideas about God.

There's no need to talk shit, scumbag. See? Insulting you doesn't make my posts any easier to read, does it, little boy?

and yeah with pantheism God doesn't intervene or not intervene because "He" is "The Everything," which encapsulates intervention without necessarily "using" it.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/11/03 02:49 AM)


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Offline3MJ3
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1537523 - 05/11/03 02:52 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Here's another thing......

If pantheism believes that some form of higher being or entity is all and everything universally.......

then doesn't that include all conceptual terminology and ideology including the 'states' of interfering and non-interference? So then in this way, the higher entity which is of universal consistency, is both interfering and not....and everything else :smile:

i&I


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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1537524 - 05/11/03 02:53 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

yeah thats what I was trying to say in the last part of my above post - well-put, man.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/11/03 02:54 AM)


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Offlinesoylent_green
The greatEnitsuj
Female

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 765
Loc: Ontario
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1537529 - 05/11/03 02:54 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

THAT.......



Is a really good question !!!!



Are you possibly using the following parallel:

.... A child being offered some shrimp from someone for the first time...( For example)....

"would you like a sample?"

"NO!"

"Why not? Have you ever tried it?"

"NO...  But I won't like it! "

"How do you know you won't like it if you've never tried it?"

"I dunno...  He ( pointing to the other kid ) said it was gross! "

---------------------

???  How do you deny something you know nothing of ???

This was just a silly example... lol  :grin:



 





HAHAHAHA...Deiymiyan your the bestest!


--------------------
What fun is it in Nirvana while other beings are suffering?


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Offline3MJ3
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1537535 - 05/11/03 02:58 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Strumpling, I agree with your post that the question lies beyond whether 'God' is an interfering or non-interfering one.

But Johnny was partly right in that these aren't 'views' which is what you were getting at before when you said that there are more than two. You were saying that the idea of a higher creator has manifested himself in more than two ways.

JR was saying that the involvement of such a God in our understanding is either interfering or not...he was referring to the involvment rather than the actual image...so you see this little conflict between the two of you is brought by miscommunication.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: soylent_green]
    #1537538 - 05/11/03 03:00 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I don't know man....... I don't think I like that analogy at all, Soylent..

It implies that anybody who "doesn't Believe" has never even looked into it, wasn't RAISED catholic as I was, has never been a believer in the past as I was, and doesn't know shit about whatever religion you wish to apply that to. Many "non-believers" have indeed looked into and practiced numerous religions in the past


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offline3MJ3
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Registered: 03/01/03
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1537565 - 05/11/03 03:11 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I agree. And that goes the other way around for people who haven't been raised in such an environment. I think many more people than are portrayed have some sort of spiritual connection or a longing for one, through research and discovery of different beliefs/ideologies. Ultimately, you can't say only if you are a part of the physical establishment (the church), will you ever know (metaphysical, spiritual). It really only is brought about by the thirst for wisdom through a religous doctrine, rather than the rituals which have been cultivated over history to compliment the heritage of such beliefs.

Hey Strumpling, I was also raised Catholic. My views with regards to my belief in God are very different. I decided to accept what was appropriate for my understanding to accept God's role in my life. I knew many people who gave up believing, so it just goes to show you that the physical aspects of a religion do not cultivate faith.


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Registered: 04/17/03
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Last seen: 19 years, 3 months
Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1537592 - 05/11/03 03:27 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry for the insult, i was in a bad mood and it was uncalled for :-) What I mean to say is that one of the most important questions that we can have about "god:, whatever that means for us, is wether or not he is a thetistical god, or a deistical God. If their is a deistical god, then their might as well, for humans, be no god at all. He created us, perhaps in his image, and now he is on to other creations. No amount of prayer or sacrifice or penance will ever cause god to intervene in our matters. If this is how God is, it changes EVERYTHING. Every major religion is nullified, becaues if god doesn't interfere or intervene, why bother praying to him? Why bother even acknowledging his existance?


I was raised Catho-holic too :-)

jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: 3MJ3]
    #1537593 - 05/11/03 03:27 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

I thought he was saying "there are two types of Gods - those who intervene and those who don't."

I was replying to that (whether I read it right or not..) to say that there aren't just two types of God.. intervention is just one "variable" in the orgy of idiologies surrounding various Gods.

It reminded me of when somebody says "there are two types of people in this world..." its like dude no there aren't.. but hey I'm just a stupid kid with a lack of reading comprehension so I could be completely misunderstanding everything everybody ever expresses.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/11/03 03:30 AM)


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OfflineDeiymiyan
I AM

Registered: 04/17/03
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Re: Define God - For Nonbelievers [Re: Strumpling]
    #1537703 - 05/11/03 04:20 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

"...It implies that anybody who "doesn't Believe" has never even looked into it..."
---------------

Just a clarification for you [ strumpling, and others ].....  Many people don't take the time to really investigate something for themselves and simply jump on the band wagon cause someone else said so...

This was an illustration of a closed mind.

With a closed mind, you don't  get very far... and even miss out on some potentially wonderful things as a consequence.

That is what i was refering to.

Many people pull the wool over their very own eyes.

:grin:

 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



Edited by Deiymiyan (05/11/03 04:25 AM)


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