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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7637859 - 11/14/07 11:48 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


Man wasn't inspired but was commanded by God to write the Bible. If you really want me to I'll find the verses. So therefore the Bible is the word of God and if you're saying the Bible isn't the infallible word of God than you are directly disagreeing with the very book you believe in and you can throw out any part you don't see fit, which you seem just fine with doing.




*sigh*

Let's clear the air here. My Brother-in-law is a Lutheran Pastor, as is my wife and her sister...
I've seen too many people die in the last year, and am currently at a religious crossroads.

That's not the point.

The word and letter of the old and new testament are not infallible. It is the message that is infallible. If it is King James Version or New International Version or directly translated from Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, it is content that is the word of God.

You're being far too literal.

And please do post your passages, I enjoy learning.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7637865 - 11/14/07 11:49 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Isaac, being that you're on the Shroomery, I'm willing to take a shot in the dark here and assume that you've eaten mushrooms.

That having been said, have you ever had a mushroom trip where you realized that if there is a God, that God is the consciousness of the universe itself? That we, as human beings, are individual only inasmuch as we inherently recognize the artificial boundary between ourselves and the rest of the universe? Our function in this universe is, as a mass collective, to think for God. We are the brain. Our conversations, our dialogue, our language and art and experiences are the deceptive harmony of a single massive brain trying to come to some kind of understanding. We are nothing but neurons firing away at some incomprehensible existential quandary. Bill Hicks put it this way: we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively.

Think of it this way: God is an infant. Remember when you were an infant and you were monumentally confused, struggling to come to some concrete understanding of what you and the strange sensations bombarding you were?

I kind of went off on a tangent here, but my point is don't have such a limited view of "God."


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/14/07 11:53 PM)

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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7637885 - 11/14/07 11:54 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Gods message in the Bible doesn't appear to be that difficult to understand at all, actually I'd say most ignorant people do fine comprehending its central message. You can't put limitations on an omnipotent being you just can't.

But I'm sure were about to go in circles anyway.




You're putting limitations on an omnipotent being by saying an omnipotent being can't be limited...

It's the classic "can god make a rock so massive that he can't lift it?" argument.

If he can make said stone, than he lacks the power to overcome his own creation= not omnipotent

If he can't make it, once again, not all powerful.

God by our human definition is capable of anything, and yet most religious teachings involve a deity incarnate, living in flesh, bound by man's perceptions.

choice.


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OfflineIsaac
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7637889 - 11/14/07 11:56 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I think you misunderstood. The closest thing God has to a mouth is an enlightened human being. The human being is flawed and cannot possibly relate the full awesomeness of God to his fellow human beings. So he does his best, and writes a book.

You also must understood that the people who wrote the Bible did not think like we do. Their minds literally ran on a different track. They barely had a concept of "fiction," let alone all the other literary traditions we rely on today to communicate meaning. The only way they knew to tell stories and explain their world was through symbolism and allegory.




Yeah Gods soooo inmeasurable wise he can only relate to man through symbolism.

That's saying God can't do something and the Bibles says God can do anything, therefore you disagree with aspects of the Bible.

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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7637891 - 11/14/07 11:56 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

If god is an infant, we're all fucked anyway. Cheers!


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OfflineIsaac
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7637917 - 11/15/07 12:04 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Isaac, being that you're on the Shroomery, I'm willing to take a shot in the dark here and assume that you've eaten mushrooms.

That having been said, have you ever had a mushroom trip where you realized that if there is a God, that God is the consciousness of the universe itself? That we, as human beings, are individual only inasmuch as we inherently recognize the artificial boundary between ourselves and the rest of the universe? Our function in this universe is, as a mass collective, to think for God. We are the brain. Our conversations, our dialogue, our language and art and experiences are the deceptive harmony of a single massive brain trying to come to some kind of understanding. We are nothing but neurons firing away at some incomprehensible existential quandary. Bill Hicks put it this way: we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively.

Think of it this way: God is an infant. Remember when you were an infant and you were monumentally confused, struggling to come to some concrete understanding of what you and the strange sensations bombarding you were?

I kind of went off on a tangent here, but my point is don't have such a limited view of "God."




I am not disagreeing with the idea of god only the Bibles definition of an omnipotent god, it claims god is not monumentally confused or struggling in any way. The Bible claims he has limitless power and has no boundaries therefore your definition of god doesn't quite match the Bibles definition of God.

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7637924 - 11/15/07 12:05 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

That is true. My only point is that God is an abstract being and any attempt to determine its definitive nature by individual human beings will inherently be flawed, including the Bible, however much truth is also in there.

Self-awareness is a tricky thing, ya know?


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (11/15/07 12:13 AM)

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OfflineIsaac
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7637970 - 11/15/07 12:18 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Firewolf127 said:
Quote:

Gods message in the Bible doesn't appear to be that difficult to understand at all, actually I'd say most ignorant people do fine comprehending its central message. You can't put limitations on an omnipotent being you just can't.

But I'm sure were about to go in circles anyway.




You're putting limitations on an omnipotent being by saying an omnipotent being can't be limited...

It's the classic "can god make a rock so massive that he can't lift it?" argument.

If he can make said stone, than he lacks the power to overcome his own creation= not omnipotent

If he can't make it, once again, not all powerful.

God by our human definition is capable of anything, and yet most religious teachings involve a deity incarnate, living in flesh, bound by man's perceptions.

choice.




Humans are extremely simple beings, comparisons using "can god make a rock so massive that he can't lift it?" argument need not apply.

It does apply to the limits of an omnipotent being which I am finding some tasty food for thought right now but God wouldn't need nor want to limit himself to any aspect of his creation. If he can only create simple beings and it require him being limited you are again disagreeing with the Bible.

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OfflineIsaac
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7637987 - 11/15/07 12:24 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
That is true. My only point is that God is an abstract being and any attempt to determine its definitive nature by individual human beings will inherently be flawed, including the Bible, however much truth is also in there.

Self-awareness is a tricky thing, ya know?




Isn't it permissible to think common sense applies to all knowing divine beings just as it does humans?

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7637990 - 11/15/07 12:26 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I would like to clarify, at this point, that I do not believe in God.

I just really hope God exists.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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OfflineIsaac
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7638004 - 11/15/07 12:31 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I would like to clarify, at this point, that I do not believe in God.

I just really hope God exists.




Can I ask you why you don't believe in god?

The lack of mercy and his lack of intervention on useless suffering does it for me.

But I'm not completely atheist I'm open to the idea of god just that god may be somehow limited. This isn't an anti-god thread it's a don't take the Bible literal thread. It speaks metaphorically so interpreted it as such, never as fact. I take from it it's positive lessons not much more.

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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7638017 - 11/15/07 12:36 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

In what capacity are humans 'simple beings?'

you're contending that common sense tells you what god would want or think. how can simple beings get that? do you believe you know the mind of god?

I'd like to see my deviation from scripture on this, but i'll wait until the morning.


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Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7638024 - 11/15/07 12:38 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not an atheist, I'm what you might call a positive agnostic. I believe it's quite possible that we are more than we appear to be, immortal spirits cased in a temporary mortal flesh, and I believe it's quite possible that there is a universal consciousness that has made meaningful contact with individuals.

However, I also believe it's imminently possible that when I die I will rot in the ground, that the universe is just a huge barren pile of stuff in which one (or more) tiny little planet happened to be able to support this funny little thing called life.

I don't like to jump to conclusions.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Crasher]
    #7638028 - 11/15/07 12:39 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

and if this is going to become an 'oh god why do bad things happen to good people' thread... I'll pass. Humans fuck it up for themselves, and if there is a god, he left a pretty simple plan to stop it.


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OfflineIsaac
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #7638051 - 11/15/07 12:51 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Firewolf127said:

In what capacity are humans 'simple beings?'

you're contending that common sense tells you what god would want or think. how can simple beings get that? do you believe you know the mind of god?

I'd like to see my deviation from scripture on this, but i'll wait until the morning.




We are physically and in general meantally (but not exclusively) simple beings, at the very least in comparison to a limitless god. Sorry but if God doesn't have common sense than his wisdom is therefore limited. If you are saying he has to limit himself for mans comprehension you are saying he is of finite power and disagreeing with the Bible.

If god wants to lift a stone so heavy he can't lift it than he can (atleast by the definition of having infinite power). If he want's to lift a stone heavier than he can lift then desides to lift it, he can HE HAS NO BOUNDARIES. God could create anything anyway he saw fit and if THIS is the best he could do I have to say I'm very dissapointed. Come on why doesn't he atleast stop useless suffering?





Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I'm not an atheist, I'm what you might call a positive agnostic. I believe it's quite possible that we are more than we appear to be, immortal spirits cased in a temporary mortal flesh, and I believe it's quite possible that there is a universal consciousness that has made meaningful contact with individuals.

However, I also believe it's imminently possible that when I die I will rot in the ground, that the universe is just a huge barren pile of stuff in which one (or more) tiny little planet happened to be able to support this funny little thing called life.

I don't like to jump to conclusions.




I dont like to jumoo to conclusions either thats why I think it's important for christians as well as atheists to remain open minded to agnostism becuase no one can be certain what happens when you die.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Silversoul]
    #7638055 - 11/15/07 12:55 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Isaac said:
Quote:

Tchan909 said:
When God speaks through a man, it's just that: God speaking through the use of the limited capacities of an individual human being. Whether or not the Bible was inspired by God, it is subject to the assumptions of the time and people that produced it.




So in order to communicate with man he had to limit himself?

Can't you see the Bible claims God is omnipotent therefore has no limitations? Where's the evidence of your claim that if god wants to speak with man he has to have the intelligence of man?



God constricting himself in order to form the physical universe(Tzimtzum) is a central Kabbalistic teaching. It is the only way a finite universe could emerge from an infinite God. Consider how minuscule a man is compared to the universe, and then from there how much more minuscule he is compared to God. How could such a small mind comprehend infinity? God had to condense his message to such a feeble mind. It would be like writing a quantum mechanics book for children. There is another Kabbalistic teaching which says that the Torah is not scripture. The scriptures are merely the garment which clothes the Torah. The map is not the territory. The words that describe the map are even further removed from the territory.




Btw this is addressing Christianity not Judaism.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7638058 - 11/15/07 12:56 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

I think that what you're really at odds with here isn't Christianity or the Bible itself, but with the literal interpretation of the bible. In a word, Evangelicalism.


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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OfflineKinematics
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7638060 - 11/15/07 12:56 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

If the Christian god is real...

I'd rather go to hell.

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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Kinematics]
    #7638070 - 11/15/07 01:01 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Kinematics said:
If the Christian god is real...

I'd rather go to hell.




Yeah it wouldn't be good to have to sit in heaven knowing that there are millions of people in hell and there was nothing I could do about it, THAT would be hell to me.

Tchan I think yes Christianity and the Bible fail to meet standards of literal interpretation. I also think a wise god would make the world a better place if he had the power, shit he could at least give us better tools to reach such a reality.

Edited by Isaac (11/15/07 01:16 AM)

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OfflineIsaac
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Re: If the Christian god is real... [Re: Isaac]
    #7638091 - 11/15/07 01:13 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)


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