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Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6804640 -

it stars saddam said:
FrenchSocialist said:
it stars saddam said:
How could ethics or morality even exist in a system of hard determinism/fatalism?


As determined judgments. We could evolve a set of determined judgments as an evolutionary consequence of being social animals.


Yet those determined judgements would be subjective and a direct result of the environment or particular society in which they evolved. This is made obvious by the profound moral relativism one encounters when examining the customs of other cultures.


What is your point?


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6804643 -

I think you'll find that moderate stances and middle grounds, although less satisfying answers, are usually the closest to reality.


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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: SampaJasli]
    #6804644 -

Not when the middle ground is completely impossible.


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Laugh and the world laughs with you.
Weep and you weep alone

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6804651 -

Quote:
My apologies but I don't quite understand this statement. Do you mean that some people were never habituated into being self-disciplined but that making them aware of the habit can affect them?



Yes.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: BrainChemicals]
    #6804652 -

Or at least superfluous.


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6804653 -

FrenchSocialist said:
it stars saddam said:
FrenchSocialist said:
it stars saddam said:
How could ethics or morality even exist in a system of hard determinism/fatalism?


As determined judgments. We could evolve a set of determined judgments as an evolutionary consequence of being social animals.


Yet those determined judgements would be subjective and a direct result of the environment or particular society in which they evolved. This is made obvious by the profound moral relativism one encounters when examining the customs of other cultures.


What is your point?


That existence in a system of hard determinism is inherently amoral and devoid of personal responsibility, and that this fact has no bearing on the truth of determinism.

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: BrainChemicals]
    #6804663 -

and why would you say that a middle ground in regard to the existence of free will is impossible?


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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: SampaJasli]
    #6804669 -

SampaJasli said:
and why would you say that a middle ground in regard to the existence of free will is impossible?


There is a middle ground, it's called soft determinism, and it's rather silly. Let's not forget the law of excluded middle; either free will exists or it does not.

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6804672 -

it stars saddam said:
That existence in a system of hard determinism is inherently amoral and devoid of personal responsibility, and that this fact has no bearing on the truth of determinism.


You already made that assertion. Do you have any actual reasoning to back it up or are you just going to repeat yourself at this point? If so you are committing the fallacy of begging the question.


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6804695 -

it stars saddam said:
Fatalism reduces our existence to a process, therefore any action or thought that is performed in this universe is merely an inevitable part of the process, like a domino falling in line. Any moral value judgements we attempt to place after the fact are meaningless and subjective to the conscious agent.


Note how you neglected to quote that part of my post on the previous page.

Argument By Selective Reading

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6804696 -

If there is no free will, then there should be no S&P Forum guidelines, no traffic or any other kind of laws...

TIME TO RAPE & PILLAGE!


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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #6804702 -

Appeal to Consequences

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6804704 -

at any one point I have an almost infinite number of options of which actions or reactions I can preform. Although my prior experience may eliminate a great number of those options through long-held beliefs or social customs, etc., I still have the ability to do one thing or the other.


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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: SampaJasli]
    #6804713 -

No, in your brain, I believe, it may be technically impossible.

Say I tell you to stand up in the middle of a class and shout "I LIKE SPERM ALL OVER MY FACE." You won't. There is nothing I could say short of offering you money or pulling out a gun that would eventually make your brain undergo that process of "okay, I will do it."


--------------------
Laugh and the world laughs with you.
Weep and you weep alone

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6804716 -

While we're on the topic of fatalism, I highly suggest that all of you budding philosophers read The System of Nature by baron d' Paul Henri Thiry Holbach, which can be found here:

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/8909

Labeled the "Bible of atheism" upon its release in 1770 France, it features one of the most compelling arguments for fatalism I've ever read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_System_of_Nature

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6804717 -

FrenchSocialist said:
it stars saddam said:
The moral implications of determinism are irrelevant anyway, as any argument from that angle would be an appeal to consequences.


Not really. Virtue ethics is not consequential yet is compatible with determinism.


I think he meant the argument that determinism would lead to a loss of responsibility is a fallacy - argument from consequences.

Assuming that determinism is true, it seems impossible to judge a persons actions using any deontological/non-consequentialist morality. But, just because you cannot judge a person's choices doesn't mean you cannot judge the person or the consequences of his/her actions. I personally do not believe determinism ultimate destroys the concept of responsibility, although it does alter it in significant ways. You cannot punish someone because they're an awful, sinful, rotten person that deserves to be punished, but you can punish a person in order to prevent them and others from causing an undesirable action.

There are a number of ethical systems that are compatible with determinism: egoism, utilitarianism, Nicomachean ethics, and Rawl's social justice.

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: SampaJasli]
    #6804718 -

Unless you don't have infinite options. Then while you may consider other options, the exact option you act upon can be considered determined--all one has to do is treat conscious reflection as a determined/determining mechanism.


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #6804721 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
If there is no free will, then there should be no S&P Forum guidelines, no traffic or any other kind of laws...


I'd also like to point out that it was wholly determined that these arbitrary laws would be constructed by the human animal.

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6804728 -

Are you saying that the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not want us to rape and pillage?  :confused:  If he really wanted us to behave, wouldn't he reach out with his noodly appendage and rip the bong out of our hands?

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Re: The existence of Free Will is far from certain [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6804733 -

it stars saddam said:
While we're on the topic of fatalism, I highly suggest that all of you budding philosophers read The System of Nature by baron d' Paul Henri Thiry Holbach, which can be found here:

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/8909

Labeled the "Bible of atheism" upon its release in 1770 France, it features one of the most compelling arguments for fatalism I've ever read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_System_of_Nature


I think evolutionary psychology has changed a lot of what we think about human nature since the time of Holbach.


--------------------


"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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