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Invisiblekaiowas
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misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist
    #2236627 - 01/12/04 10:26 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

inspired by phluck's post on "respected people and strange beliefs"; trendal's post on consciousness, and a chat I had with sole worthy...


ok now I'm not here to prove or disprove, but rather I want to explain somethings that involve science that I have been reading here and other places.

Energy: What we have to realize here is that energy is a very broad term. It is very difficult to write a clear definition of it. In Physics "energy" was originally a technique to analyze motion. soon scientist figured out that this could be applied to other situations like chemical reactions, geological processes, biological functioning, things that do not involve motion. so what is energy then? basically energy is a scalar value that is associated with a state (or condition) of objects. it's plainly a number, a concept if you will. energy only exists in our head

energy is closely realted to work. Work is energy tranferred to or from an object by means of a force acting on the object "work" then is transferred energy, doing work is the act of... see now the term transfer is misleading. It does not mean anything material flows into or out of the object, like the flow of water for example. I would say it's more like the electronic transfer of money between two bank accounts. the number in one account goes up while the numberi n the other goes down. again, a number.

also the term work itself is misleading. we aren't concerned with the common meaning of it, which implies any physical or mental labor. what I am saying a a force applied through a distance is work. so for instance you lean up again a wall, yes you tire because of the continuous contractions of muscles, and you are, in the common sense, working. having such effortsdoesn't cause an energy transfer from you or the wall since nothing is moving.

so what I am saying is be a little careful in what you read. expecially when it has to deal with science (ie elections and light and). I'm gonna post more about Em waves, consciousness, photons, what EM waves (light is an em wave) can do an such. this is the stuff I am studying hehe

any questions comments?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineFrog
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Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: kaiowas]
    #2236632 - 01/12/04 10:30 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yes.  Before I start taking your word for what energy is, and what it isn't, could you please cite your sources?

:grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: kaiowas]
    #2236634 - 01/12/04 10:32 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I agree that energy, in a general sense exists only in our head, but what about specific forms of energy like EM?


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: Frog]
    #2236639 - 01/12/04 10:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

haha yes frog

"fundamentals in physics"  Halliday, Resnick, and walker

my bible basically :smile:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineFrog
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Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: kaiowas]
    #2236647 - 01/12/04 10:41 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Read "The Field". I can't promote that book enough. And what would be nice is if someone read it and then told me what was wrong with it.

Why does energy only exist in our heads?

I think that if I left the room I am in, energy would still exist and be exchanged by the things I leave behind.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2236657 - 01/12/04 10:48 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I agree that energy, in a general sense exists only in our head, but what about specific forms of energy like EM?

"basically energy is a scalar value that is associated with a state (or condition) of objects. it's plainly a number, a concept if you will"


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: kaiowas]
    #2236662 - 01/12/04 10:51 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

so then light is a state or condition of what object?


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: Frog]
    #2236676 - 01/12/04 10:59 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

of for instance for an em wave to happen, one way is to have an electron present.  electrons have a charge, which set's up an eletric field. if you put another electron in that same field, the second electron will move because of the charge. see charge isn't the energy, but sure can make another electron move, therefore the electron is in motion, therefore the second electron has motion. here we describe the relationship of the second electron to first as an energy "transfer"  nothing ACTUALLY transferred but we need to describe a way the electron made the second move.  this is the concept of energy. 

between the two electrons there is a the magnetic push between two electrons.  there's an E-field and a b-field (magnetic field). the cross product of these two is the scalar value of the electromagnetic wave. like i said I'll explain more in a bit :smile:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2236678 - 01/12/04 11:01 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

light isn't energy, it's an electromagnetic wave which can "tranfer" energy


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


Edited by kaiowas (01/12/04 11:02 AM)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: kaiowas]
    #2236694 - 01/12/04 11:10 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

? ifrared is also a part of the EM spectrum. this electromagnetic wave can take heat (motion) from one thing and transfer it to another thing without those things touching. microwaves are also a part of the EM spectrum and it can be used to transmit power wirelessly. the EM spectrum is energy, a textbook example.

edit: in response to your edit: ok. now we're just discussing symantics. that's cool :smile: I agree that EM waves transfer energy. but I also think that it is energy.



Edited by infidelGOD (01/12/04 11:20 AM)


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2236702 - 01/12/04 11:15 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I've read that much of the universe consists of Dark Matter or Dark Energy....


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: kaiowas]
    #2236721 - 01/12/04 11:27 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
of for instance for an em wave to happen, one way is to have an electron present.  electrons have a charge, which set's up an eletric field. if you put another electron in that same field, the second electron will move because of the charge. see charge isn't the energy, but sure can make another electron move, therefore the electron is in motion, therefore the second electron has motion. here we describe the relationship of the second electron to first as an energy "transfer"  nothing ACTUALLY transferred but we need to describe a way the electron made the second move.  this is the concept of energy. 

between the two electrons there is a the magnetic push between two electrons.  there's an E-field and a b-field (magnetic field). the cross product of these two is the scalar value of the electromagnetic wave. like i said I'll explain more in a bit :smile:




So that means it's not just in our minds, is it?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: kaiowas]
    #2236722 - 01/12/04 11:29 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)



--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2236723 - 01/12/04 11:29 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

yes energy is what's happening in between the motion. heat can be a result of radiation. what is radiation??? Radioactive atoms are unstable and, in an effort to become stable, release energy. This release of energy comes from the release of particles or electromagnetic waves as the radioactive atom ?decays,? or ?disintegrates.? for instance, we have alpha beta and gamma particles. Beta particles are electrons emitted from the nucleus of an atom. Beta particles can have enough energy to penetrate paper or skin but not materials like wood. see it's "released" therefor there is a tranfer. that's the energy, not the actual spectrum itself, but energy can be the "indentifier" on how fast the lectron moves for example. how fast the electron moves (or a transverse wave) shows what part of the spectrum it is. if it moves slower it can go really far, and this go long distances, like a radiowave. it it moves fast, it can go only a shorter distance, emitted more hear .

here's an example

say somthing is sliding, like the brake shoes on your car. the movement of the pad works against the routers (sp?) which slows the breakpad down. . tthe slowing of the block radiates heat right? well this heat is a transfer energy from kinetic (ie moving) to thermal (which has to deal with the radom motions of atoms and molecules) it has to deal with the exchange of what's happen. the process, all which we describe in our brains


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: Phluck]
    #2236728 - 01/12/04 11:30 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

yeah!!!
it's a property of an object :lol: that's much easier hehe

taken from the link pluck gave
energy refers to a condition or state of a thing.



--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


Edited by kaiowas (01/12/04 11:32 AM)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: kaiowas]
    #2236738 - 01/12/04 11:34 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

from that link:
A USEFUL ANALOGY
Wealth is to the economic world - as energy is to the natural world.

a good analogy. energy exists, just like wealth exists.
money is used to transfer wealth - money is wealth.
see what I'm saying?


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2236744 - 01/12/04 11:37 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

and food is used to transfer energy in our bodies--so food IS energy.. :nut:


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2236750 - 01/12/04 11:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

(This thread is really interesting to me, because I'm very interested in energy, but I have to go do some work now. Please don't let it get up to 1000 posts before I come back tonight.)


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2236752 - 01/12/04 11:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

money exists but wealth

taken from the dictionary:
wealth
a great "quantity" or store of money, valuable possession, property or other "riches", the rich abundance of anything.

see it describes the conidtion, it isn't actual is something. wealth like energy is a concept, a property, a description of what happenned, an analization of motion.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: Frog]
    #2236755 - 01/12/04 11:44 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

of course, frog I'm interested too, that's why I want to hear ideas.  again just keep in mind I am just talking from the perspective of physics, I do identify there may be "other" aspects.  I can't say if that is true or not because it's not tangible.  and that's my point, when talking about something that has to do with physics, be careful :smile:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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