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Offlinegluke bastid
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Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?!
    #949453 - 10/10/02 11:06 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Disclaimer: I am honestly not trying to be a smartass by posting this thread. But Mr. Mushrooms said that anything based fundamentally on science doesn't belong in spirituality & philisophy and I think that brings up a very interesting philosiphical spiritual question.


Namely, is this true? I don't think so. I really see science as a philosiphy and mode of thinking. Consider what science replaced, mysticism. Mysticism as a way of understanding the universe places opposite conecptions upon experience, namely, that what is meaningful need not be categorized or explained. Life, behavior and the universe is a meaningful aesthetic experience. There is no room for aesthetics, subjectivity in science. Doesn't this make it a philosiphy? Science assumes that the entire universe can be explained by pursuing experiments, adopting hypothesis, and coming up with fundamental laws about how everything in the universe works. How on earth can you tell me that this is not a spiritual standpoint? Science replaced God with science, it is just that this is tricky to see because science doesn't bother to stop and explain itself. That doesn't make science any less preachy or based on assumption.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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Anonymous

Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: gluke bastid]
    #949478 - 10/10/02 11:13 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Bravo! Well Done! This is another example of how science can be discussed in this forum. Science has usurped not only mysticism but philosophy itself. It really thinks it is the answer to all questions. Guess what? It ain't and by a long shot!

Science misses the mark on so many things because of its philosophical presuppositions.

More on this later.

Cheers,

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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: gluke bastid]
    #949483 - 10/10/02 11:15 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Was thinking the same thing. Our laboratories are our temples, our physicists are our high priests.


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: gluke bastid]
    #949539 - 10/10/02 11:35 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

In reply to:

Science assumes that the entire universe can be explained by pursuing experiments, adopting hypothesis, and coming up with fundamental laws about how everything in the universe works.





wrong.
some people do. the scientific method is just that though, a method. one that works to find solutions to problems. it doesn't "assume" anything by itself.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: ]
    #949550 - 10/10/02 11:43 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Science has usurped not only mysticism but philosophy itself. It really thinks it is the answer to all questions.



Really, Mr_Mushrooms!  Please don't turn science into a deity by anthropomorphizing it.  Science no more has consciousness of itself than a game of tiddlywinks does.  But then, I suspect you know that already. :wink: 


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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InvisibleMetasyn
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: gluke bastid]
    #949552 - 10/10/02 11:44 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Spirituality, philosophy, and science all do the same thing: attempt to explain the universe in which we live. Spirituality does it by knowledge contained within, science by knowledge discovered in the world, and philosophy by combining knowledge contained in ourselves with the logic and empiricism of science. As such, as see them all as being part of the same continuum. I think we should remane this form "Describing the universe" or something and make it all encompassing.

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Offlinechemkid
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: Metasyn]
    #949767 - 10/10/02 01:42 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I tend to lean toward Metasyn's POV. I think the three (spirituality, Science, Philosophy) are all precursors and products of one another. I guess it's kind of like the chicken and the egg routine. Where one field is lacking the other tries to pick up the slack. The funny thing about science is that it becomes what many scientists try to explain away......Dogma.

I think the area where too much of this world is in err is in trying to adhere to just one. The three don't have to face off, they can coexist and support one another, not break each other down. I think the difficulty in trying to live by this is when something gets disproven and it is looked at as a victory by one branch instead of a learning experience.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

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OfflineCleverName
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: chemkid]
    #949789 - 10/10/02 01:52 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

three stages swallowed by one breathe


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose

Edited by CleverName (10/10/02 01:53 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: Evolving]
    #949905 - 10/10/02 02:52 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

I anthropomorphize science because its deification was completed long ago by fools who think it is the only way to understand the universe.  As ChemKid, et al have pointed out in this thread there are other ways of understanding the universe and the fact is that when understood properly each field of knowledge, i.e. philosophy, science, and spirituality, contribute heavily to the others.  Gould's NOMA could not have been more wrong.  As he is only a mere scientist it is only natural that he did not understand that.  Any expert outside their chosen field is but a tyro.

Cheers, 

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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: ]
    #949973 - 10/10/02 03:26 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

So instead of a Science forum why not just rename this one Spirituality & Philosophy & Science ?
Are there really that many 'science only' posts that they need their own forum?

Edited by dee_N_ae (10/10/02 03:27 PM)

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #949993 - 10/10/02 03:35 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I pretty much agree with dee_N_ae... I don't mind science merging with spirituality and philosophy, although the occasional "your beliefs are wrong because science says so" attitude can get annoying......


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #950028 - 10/10/02 03:46 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

"the scientific method is just that though, a method. one that works to find solutions to problems. it doesn't "assume" anything by itself."

but isn't working scientifically to fins a solution to problem an assumption that the scientific answer is THE answer? I mean, there are lots of different ways to solve a problem. Egyptians answered the question as to why the sun rises in the east and sets in the west by believing that it was a god that travelled above ground every day and underground every night. Science answered it drastically differently, becuase science assumes that gods like that don't exist. I think science assumes a lot of things, or more accurately, one has to embrace certain assumptions if one wants to do anything in the name of science, i.e. repeated, objective observations about behaviors in nature can lead to a hypothesis involving natural, static laws that set that behavior in motion.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: gluke bastid]
    #950110 - 10/10/02 04:09 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

but isn't working scientifically to fins a solution to problem an assumption that the scientific answer is THE answer?

I think science assumes a lot of things, or more accurately, one has to embrace certain assumptions if one wants to do anything in the name of science, i.e. repeated, objective observations about behaviors in nature can lead to a hypothesis involving natural, static laws that set that behavior in motion.


Science is a great way of creating models- for creating bridges between observable ?reality? and the way humans comprehend ?reality.? To think that science is ?the answer?- giving science the status of a religion- or that it will lead to some ultimate truth is an assumption held by people, and not necessary for the practice of the method itself. Science rules out explanations, it doesn?t prove any ?truth?- to think that it will eventually lead to some grand unification theory of absolutely everything is an assumption held by people. Good post.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein

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Invisible1stimer
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: Adamist]
    #950173 - 10/10/02 04:28 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

i dont see anything wrong with bashing people for their beliefs. beliefs are the source of all that is wrong on earth.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.

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Invisible1stimer
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: 1stimer]
    #950175 - 10/10/02 04:28 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

and that is what i believe. :grin:


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.

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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: 1stimer]
    #950180 - 10/10/02 04:30 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

/me bashes 1stimer with his club
OOGA!!
BELIEF BAD!!!

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: 1stimer]
    #950187 - 10/10/02 04:32 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

And oppression of beliefs is also a major source of what is wrong with the world...


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Invisible1stimer
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: Adamist]
    #950219 - 10/10/02 04:36 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

that is competition of beliefs.
"ooga me believe"


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: gluke bastid]
    #950225 - 10/10/02 04:37 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

A) The philosophy of science, is a philosophy.

B) Science (scientia=knowledge) has NOT replaced mysticism. In the words of the classic writer on the topic, Evelyn Underhill: "Mysticism is the art of union with Reality. The mystic is a person who has attained that union in greater or less degree; or who aims at and believes in such attainment." So, for the theist, Ultimate Reality is God, and God is never the 'object' of observation because God is not 'an object' among other objects. WE are the relative 'objects,' and God is the ONE subject. It is not that God is an idea in our minds - but rather we are ideas in the Mind of God.

C) Whereas "aesthetics" might not be a specific concern of pure science, there IS a concern for 'symmetry.' Symmetry includes perfect form (in a Pythagorean and a mathematically symbolic way), and may well approach or approximate the human emotional reponse to aesthetics (gee, it happened to Seven of Nine!)

D) There is NO SUCH THING as scientific objectivity. That is just 19th century philosophy of science. Human observation, with or without instrumentation, is always a part of the observed phenomenon. Subject-object division here is a fiction. Human intellect can play at being the 'All-seeing eye of God,' but the conclusions will be flawed. The experimenter is part of the experiment. Phenomenologically speaking, consciousness underlies both poles of subject and object.

E) The simple discussion of physical phenomenon does not belong in a spirituality and philosophy forum, but the discussion about how physical laws (to which science is dedicated) operate in certain philosophies of science, say, 'backward causation,' or 'precognition,' seems relevant. The entire nature of psychophysical reality is being questioned in that instance. Remember...philosophy asks 'why?' while science asks 'how?'


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Anonymous

Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #950273 - 10/10/02 04:45 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Picture a broad grin on my face as I stand in front of my monitor applauding again!

You are on a role.

Cheers,

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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #950280 - 10/10/02 04:46 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I'm very thankful you're here, Markos. Your posts always put things in such a fresh perspective.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: ]
    #950320 - 10/10/02 04:54 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

:smile:  Thank you again Mr_Mushrooms. Something told me you'd like that one. Time to go to sleep now - I've 'discharged my tension.'  :smile: 


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #950333 - 10/10/02 04:56 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Very kind of you to say. Thank you very much.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #950529 - 10/10/02 05:42 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I'm particularly interested in point C... I was wondering if you could elaborate for my own clarification.


"Symmetry includes perfect form (in a Pythagorean and a mathematically symbolic way), and may well approach or approximate the human emotional reponse to aesthetics (gee, it happened to Seven of Nine!)"

Do you mean that symmetry is similar to human aesthetic response because it is the basis on which meaning may be concluded? I.E. from an aesthetic point of view an event is not meaningful because it doesn't generate emotion, analogous to an event or sequence of events having no meaning in science if it doesn't illustrate symmetry?


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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Offlinevaporbrains
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: gluke bastid]
    #950694 - 10/10/02 06:25 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

did someone possess or impersonate mr. mushrooms in this thread? he seems to be talking gibberish.  also, you probably meant to say "you are on a roll"  not "role." it makes a lot more sense that way.  :smile: where exactly should science questions be placed might i ask? any science related question that would affect one's views on the universe, philosophy, spirituality is relevant to this forum.  of course, we have no need for specialists dicussing the intricacies of thier area of interest or scientific discussions that have no relevance to S & P. 


--------------------
All refrences to and statements concerning mushrooms, mushroom cultivation, and mushroom related paraphrenalia refer specifically to the cultivation of legal species.

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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: gluke bastid]
    #950823 - 10/10/02 06:57 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

when science leads to the ability to manipulate our environment or predict things, how are we to say that anything but science, in that case, IS the solution?
would you prefer attempting to communicate your posts to us by telepathy, or to use this handy computer science you have available to you?
can religious leaders build airplanes with faith?
science provides the only tangibly useful solutions. religon and spirituality may provide personal solutions to certain people but they aren't universal solutions. they are subjective solutions to subjective problems
airplanes and pacemakers are objective solutions to objective problems.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #950997 - 10/10/02 07:30 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I honestly don't know why that concept is so hard to grasp for so many.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Edited by Sclorch (10/10/02 07:31 PM)

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InvisibleMetasyn
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #951128 - 10/10/02 08:00 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

They answer different questions yes, but they are both useful. Science is useful for when you want to travel across the country, but spirituality is useful for when you are trying to reconcile the death of a best friend for instance. Spirituality doesn't help in the former any more than science does in the latter. People need to be able to use both in balance and at the appropriate times.

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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #951139 - 10/10/02 08:02 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Was this directed at me?

If it was, then look man I ain't against science. I'm not a Ludist (sp?) by any stretch of the imagination (those are people who want to destroy machines and return to cottage industry). Besides technology and science can be seperate issues. I just think it is important to critique everything that we make use of. I am extremely critical of democracy's shortcomings, but I think it is the best form of government in existence. If you don't realize the limitations of your own modes of thinking, than you are only going to go as far as one mode of thought will take you. Now THAT's a concept I am amazed that most people can't grasp.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: Metasyn]
    #951184 - 10/10/02 08:12 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

like I said, spirituality is only useful to certain people in certain situations.
science is useful to anyone in certain situations
it's the only thing that is "the" answer to anything


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #951404 - 10/10/02 09:43 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Correct.


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: gluke bastid]
    #951423 - 10/10/02 09:55 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Good post. I believe that MOST scientific threads do belong here.

Some fields blur the line between science and philoshophy.

example: psychology, cosmology, astronomy, quantam mechanics, artificial intelligence...

these subjects deal with the nature of being, the nature of existence, the nature of human thought, the nature of the physical univese

How can you seperate these things from philosophy?

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #951458 - 10/10/02 10:12 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

wrong.
some people do. the scientific method is just that though, a method. one that works to find solutions to problems. it doesn't "assume" anything by itself.


wrong.

The scientific method makes two critical assumptions.

1. The laws of nature are consistent through time.
2. The laws of nature are consistent throughout space.

Two assumptions that are untestable.

And here is why science will never "see" objective reality:

According to the Uncertainty Principle, a measurement cannot be made without disturbing the system - in order to confirm the existence of something, you must "bump" it and affect it. Therefore, any scientific observation is affected by the act of observing.

Of course, this is according to the quantum mechanical model of the unverse, which only works in the micro scale, while Newtonian/Einsteinian physics only works in the macro. See the problem? Two models of the universe that are not compatible are both correct! Experimental data has proved both. These physical laws are not consistent with regards to scale.

The Unified Field Theory will resolve these differences but you still can't avoid the original assumptions of science.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: gluke bastid]
    #951644 - 10/11/02 12:45 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

The conscious recognition of symmetry may evoke 'meaning' through its necessary and intelligent design. Human recognition of meaning (or of anything else) will be tinctured by some emotion, howsoever rarified, but emotion by itself does not indicate meaning. But along the reasoning of your last statement, symmetry has the 'mandalic' power to elicit meaning in a way that randomness and chaos does not (IMHO).

A further consideration is that both emotions and meaningfulness can arise independently, and be false realities. Electrical or chemical stimulation of emotional centers in the brain can elicit artificial states of emotion; while psychotic processes can paranoically create meaningful connections when in fact no such connection 'really' exist. Both 'Head and Heart' must be subsumed under a higher (read, transcendental) principle of ordering in order to receive the authority of being 'real.'

Thanks for asking.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Anonymous

Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: vaporbrains]
    #951820 - 10/11/02 03:24 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Thank you. I am fluent in many languages, gibberish being one of them. The use of the word 'role' in place of the word 'roll' was a play on words meant for an exclusive audience of which you are not a part.

I have mentioned this before but timing necessitates its inclusion again:

"The manifestation of the universe as a complex idea unto itself as opposed to being in or outside the true Being of itself is inherently a conceptual nothingness or Nothingness in relation to any abstract form of existing or to exist or having existed in perpetuity and not subject to laws of physicality or motion or ideas relating to non-mater or the lack of objective Being or subjective otherness."

Thank you.

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Offlinevaporbrains
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: ]
    #951861 - 10/11/02 03:50 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

bah.


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All refrences to and statements concerning mushrooms, mushroom cultivation, and mushroom related paraphrenalia refer specifically to the cultivation of legal species.

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Anonymous

Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: vaporbrains]
    #952611 - 10/11/02 08:32 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, me too. :smirk:

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