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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Evolving]
    #1238853 - 01/22/03 06:12 AM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Good points, Evolving! :smile:

BTW, did you get the "check your premises" line from Atlas Shrugged?  I'm reading it now, and it is a great book!  I wish more people would take part in the discussion going on in the Literary Arts forum.


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Namaste.


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Offlinediggitydankman
No longer aCannabisConnoisseur

Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 479
Loc: Michgan
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: ]
    #1238869 - 01/22/03 06:19 AM (21 years, 11 days ago)

If atoms were simply mathematical ideas i dont suppose they would be able to be detected by electron microscopes now would they. But since electrons are part of an atom, they couldn't exist so we would not be able to use them as a magnification tool. And since electrons don't exist, well shit why the hell do those lights above you work since the electrical current running thorugh those wires is guided by electrons. And last time I checked electricty in most forms is detectable with eyes. Lightning Bolts are static electricity and so are the sparks from rubbing your feet on the carpet and touching metal ( which are easily viewable in the dark.)


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: ]
    #1238887 - 01/22/03 06:29 AM (21 years, 11 days ago)

I don't know what doxa and episteme mean, but I do think I can bring up a law or fact that you will not be able to knock down.

How 'bout... The Law of Conservation of Energy? Or any of Newton's Laws....

Or how 'bout the simple fact that a dog cannot reproduce with a cat because they do not belong to the same species? Our concept of a species is a bit cloudy, but it is a scientific fact that a dog cannot procreate with a cat. It is known with certitude.

Or how 'bout any sort of chemical reaction? We know that when we mix this much of reactant A with this much of reactant B, this much of product C will form, etc, etc. Those things are known. They are facts.

We know that earthworms have 8 hearts. We know the wavelength of different colors of light. We know that plants create their own food through the process of photosynthesis. We know that when sperm penetrates the wall of an egg cell, the cell begins to divide and turn into a lifeform. We know it takes 365 days for the Earth to revolve around the sun. We know that when we apply heat to an Amanita, the harmful acid it contains will be changed into a more desired substance.

We know all these things, and many many many many more things, because of science! These things are not myths! They are truths... How can you knock down things that we know???


--------------------
Namaste.


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Anonymous

Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1238972 - 01/22/03 07:01 AM (21 years, 11 days ago)

How 'bout... The Law of Conservation of Energy? Or any of Newton's Laws....

Were not Newton's ideas found to be inaccurate by Einstein?  Similiarly, any scientific fact or law is subject to revision if further data comes in that changes it.  Is that not so?  Of course it is.  So what that means is that any law or fact can be changed.  Therefore they are not absolute. :smile:

As odd and counterintuitive as it may seem every example you brought up may change with the introduction of new evidence.  Therefore, none of them is known with certitude.

This is what I take it to mean when Sclorch says we must live with doubt.

These concepts are philosophical and, as such, trump science. :smile:

Remember philosophy defines what science is and is not.  It's power is greater and more enduring.

I am going to see if I can find that piece by Hamilton now.

Cheers 


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: ]
    #1239018 - 01/22/03 07:25 AM (21 years, 11 days ago)

I'm still waiting patiently for the merging of science and spirituality.


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OfflineSnuffelzFurever
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Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 734
Loc: Miami, florida
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: ]
    #1239334 - 01/22/03 09:11 AM (21 years, 11 days ago)

atoms arent actually little round spherical balls. well, they might be. but nobody actualy said they are. they look like it in diagrams, to make shit easier for us. kinda how wind isnt arrows, but wind currents on a globe of the earth have arrows representing them.

sciene may prove itself true for now, but you do not know what will happen in the future. something could happen that will debunk science.

remember, there was a point in time where people believed the world was flat (although i heard it wasnt columbus who dismissed this myth, it was already disproven at the time, but that doesnt matter) and science had indeed proved it. we arent perfect. our math isnt perfect. people have trouble grasping the concept of anything besides which we now know... but isnt that the case with everything else that has ever been disproven?

"Or how 'bout any sort of chemical reaction? We know that when we mix this much of reactant A with this much of reactant B, this much of product C will form, etc, etc. Those things are known. They are facts."
There are an infinite number of variables that rmain unaccounted for, that have not changed everytime a chemical reaction occurs. But maybe someday, someone who is tripping will discover an unknown chemical reaction that will affect every other chemical reaction in the world. science holds true until now, whenever now may be, but no longer than that. Because after now, you have no clue what will happen.

I believe in science, and I believe that everything is physics and chemistry. But I will never believe we have a perfect grasp of either. And so I await the day that everyone in my classroom is boggled by a desk suddenly falling UP, so that I can laugh at everyone, and say "I told ya so!"

:-)

Damn good thread, btw


--------------------
"I think it's time we stop
Children, What's the sound,
Everybody look what's going down"


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Anonymous

Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1239808 - 01/22/03 11:40 AM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Look at Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. We don't even know where the hell an electron is around an atom, and that is what dictates how it interacts with other atoms. The best we have done is been able to come up with a 4 dimensional model called a "probability cloud"/orbitals. It can be represented to the human brain as a 3 dimensional gradient where the chances of it being closer to the nucleus are higher, but it is still just a representation. We have no idea what these things actually look like for the most part. We know how they react to things like particle beams, and the output that can be generated from that information though.


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Offlinediggitydankman
No longer aCannabisConnoisseur

Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 479
Loc: Michgan
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: ]
    #1239840 - 01/22/03 11:51 AM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Ah, but we do, just not at any exact moment (they are moving at the speed of light). The orbitals are not four dimensional, they are three dimensional. The orbitals are easily drawn through the d orbitals, but i will concede that drawing the f orbitals is quite the challenge for a human. Computers can easily show every orbital and the general path the electron will take within that orbital. We also know that when electrons are destroyed they create other smaller particles.


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool


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InvisibleRevelation

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Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1239881 - 01/22/03 12:04 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Most people who are actually into science know that what they are describing is a model..not the real thing. The rest of the population, however, seems to have faith in science as a true story. That's where it becomes mythology. It saves people from actually thinking about things themselves...safe in the knowledge that the scientists know how things really are. Phew.


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Anonymous

Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: diggitydankman]
    #1239896 - 01/22/03 12:08 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Whenever a model describes something in motion like that I say it's a 4D model....
that's just me though


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Anonymous

Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Revelation]
    #1239897 - 01/22/03 12:09 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Revelation is right. All through time people trusted the 'wise' men in the community. They knew alot, invented all kinds of things and healed people. Mysticism has a part of that the word AL usually returns in mystic things. It has to do with a state of mind, the AL knowing. algebra, alchemie, almenac.


Edited by sNaiLmAil (01/22/03 12:10 PM)


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Revelation]
    #1240250 - 01/22/03 02:16 PM (21 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Most people who are actually into science know that what they are describing is a model..not the real thing. The rest of the population, however, seems to have faith in science as a true story.



Couldn't this also be used to describe the way mythology can work? Mythology is a model used to describe functions of the universe, just as science is. Both of these are man-made, science is just the latest one. Of course we are going to think it is monumentally better, but that's just because we havn't seen what the future will bring. I foresee a future in which science is looked at in the same sense as mythology is now looked at. Humanity is constantly evolving.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: ]
    #1240257 - 01/22/03 02:19 PM (21 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

All through time people trusted the 'wise' men in the community.



I think scientists are the modern-day 'wise' men of the community. They give you the run-around on alot of things because they don't fully understand it themselves.

If you REALLY understand something, you should be able to explain it to a child. :wink: 


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Offlinediggitydankman
No longer aCannabisConnoisseur

Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 479
Loc: Michgan
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1240543 - 01/22/03 04:03 PM (21 years, 10 days ago)

I think mythology more or less describes archaic religions more than archaic sciences. I am sure sooner or later future citizens of some yet to be named country will sit around in a group and discuss the myth of God.


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool


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OfflineMurex
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Registered: 07/28/02
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1240792 - 01/22/03 05:29 PM (21 years, 10 days ago)

Science is Mythology

Wha? I don't get it. Maybe I do and just see it as silly- this makes me wonder if I really do understand what you are saying or not.

I'm Konfuzed  :confused:



--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1240823 - 01/22/03 05:39 PM (21 years, 10 days ago)

Science seems to evolve much better than old mythology


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Murex]
    #1241692 - 01/23/03 03:26 AM (21 years, 10 days ago)

Mythology - A body or collection of myths belonging to a people and addressing their origin, history, ancestors, etc. A myth is something whose existence is not absolutely verifiable.

Science can be substituted for much of the above... It gives us a better idea of things, but never an absolute one.

Science is modern-day mythology, in my opinion.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1241841 - 01/23/03 04:43 AM (21 years, 10 days ago)

Mythology - A body or collection of myths belonging to a people and addressing their origin, history, ancestors, etc. A myth is something whose existence is not absolutely verifiable.
Really?

myth (mth) n.
1. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.
2. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia.
3. A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology.
4. A fictitious story, person, or thing: ?German artillery superiority on the Western Front was a myth? (Leon Wolff).


I just don't see how these definitions could be accurately applied to the scientific method or science as an institution.

(letting you have it for being lazy)
Modern day myth, IYO? Well, your opinion is quite narrowminded... but I've come to expect that from the "spiritual" people on this board... which is basically a subgenre dedicated to fantastical interpretations of everything. So go on... bash science and whatever else that indicates that your fantasies aren't real in the objective sense. Yeah... science is all BULLSHIT, man! They haven't PROOVED anything... this computer, keyboard, monitor... it's all ILLUSION, man! No one outside of ME exists!! I'm just a brain in a vat, man... just feeling the flow... dude, heart chakras and stuff... I am god, man... and all I see is me... energy, man... like, yeah...everything is beautiful, man... even murder- which isn't really happening because I'm just a god in a vat... Astrology- it's the code of the universe, man... it's the program that runs the supercomputer that is connected to my brain (in the vat), man... it's cool, man... I'll pray for "your" soul if you don't believe any of this... I am eternal, bro...


Fuck that!
*flicks off his "non-existent" screen in disgust*


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1241898 - 01/23/03 04:58 AM (21 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Modern day myth, IYO? Well, your opinion is quite narrowminded...



Or future-minded. Do you know what will happen in the future? Could science possibly be replaced with some other system of looking at reality?  :shocked: Could the system of science then be viewed upon as a primitive system (like mythology) that attempt to explain things that CANNOT be measured?

Quote:

but I've come to expect that from the "spiritual" people on this board


Thankyou for generalizing and judging a large group of people based on their beliefs. Very un-narrow-minded of you.

Quote:

So go on... bash science



Who's bashing science?? Not me.

Quote:

your fantasies aren't real in the objective sense. 


And science is?


The rest of your post is garbage that I don't feel the need to respond to. :smile: If you want to argue in a reasonable manner let me know.

The laws which have supposedly governed science are just like that of mythology in that they can be disproven and revolve around some rather un-absolute principles.   


--------------------
:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Offlinediggitydankman
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Re: Is Science a form of Mythology? [Re: Adamist]
    #1241939 - 01/23/03 05:09 AM (21 years, 10 days ago)

I've more or less come to accept that mythology is ancient beliefs, thoughts, folk tales, etc. Yes, it is possible that some science may become myth. It was once thought that the world was flat, yet the Egyptians proved that the Earth was round and measured the diameter with simple mathematical equations. Science like everything evolves, but science will never become myth because it is the basis of everything. A=A, and this will never change because when you begin to argue that something is not itself, you have misused your brain's reasoning skills. This is the simplest concept for life, and argueing that 1=2 or a ball is equal to a rat will get you no where.


--------------------
"It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD."

Maynard James Keenan, Tool


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