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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2236770 - 01/12/04 11:55 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

let's get back to that link:

For example, wealth can take many forms. It may be in the form of cars, jewels, real estate, money in the bank, or potential earnings. Nothing in the economic world can happen unless money is transferred (wealth is transferred). The currency of the economic world is the dollar.
Similarly, energy can take many forms. It may be in the form of kinetic energy (heat and motion), gravitational or chemical potential energy, or even in the form of mass. Nothing in the natural universe can change unless energy is transferred. The currency of the natural world is the joule.

Another subtle, but very important similarity between wealth and energy can be noticed whenever an event, such as the purchase of an automobile, occurs. We never actually see the dollars transferred, we simply assume the transaction has taken place based on the effects we observe, namely the new automobile owner driving the car off the car dealer's lot.
Similarly, when we observe a bowl of hot soup cooling down, we don't actually "see" joules of energy being transferred to the surrounding air, but we assume that this is happening based on the effects that we observe (soup getting cooler and the surrounding air getting warmer).


they sure spend a lot of time talking about something that "doesn't exist". what are these joules of energy being transferred to the surrounding air? even if it is merely a condition or property of those air molecules moving faster, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. "energy" is real and measurable.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: kaiowas]
    #2236781 - 01/12/04 11:59 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I agree with what your saying. I agree with your description of energy. I just don't see how you can say that energy doesn't exist, or that it only exists in our head. it's a concept that describes a real, measurable thing.


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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2236783 - 01/12/04 12:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

like how??
heat is measured in joules. so is work. this is what??? the energy tranfer, not the energy itself, just like the money transfer between two bank accounts. it's just numbers.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2236786 - 01/12/04 12:04 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

rememeber, heat is the "description" of what atoms are dong. the decription of the motion is the joules being "released into the air"  see this is the crappy thing about language :frown:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,788
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: kaiowas]
    #2236826 - 01/12/04 12:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Well now! I've got much more to say on this subject than I can type right now (I'm at work..) but I'll give a quick briefing :wink:

Energy and Matter are one and the same, with one very basic difference: energy does not have mass, while matter does.

As far as particle physics goes, energy can be considered to be any of the massless-particles. They are sometimes also refered to as force-carriers, because they are responsible for transmitting forces between particles containing mass (matter).

What gives a particle mass? This is still a big, and fundamental, question in physics. The best theory currently involves the Higgs Field and Higgs Boson (or "God particle"). Particles which have "mass" are said to be interacting with the Higgs Field, while massless particles do not interact with it. The Higgs Field exists in all points of spacetime, and can be thought of as a "drag" force upon particles with mass - as the particles try to move through the Higgs Field, they are held in place by the field and a "force" is required to overcome this holding effect.

Nuts...I'm out of time...more later :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: kaiowas]
    #2236827 - 01/12/04 12:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

like how??
heat is measured in joules. so is work. this is what??? the energy tranfer


the amount of heat being transfered is measured in joules, what is being transfered/measured, and does this thing exist?

rememeber, heat is the "description" of what atoms are dong. the decription of the motion is the joules being "released into the air"

I know that heat is the result of the motion of particles (a condition or property of particles). but this motion is real and it is what is being measured when we measure heat right? it's not just in our head.

see this is the crappy thing about language

yeah I agree it's just words but I see it this way: energy is real because it describes real properties. I know what you're trying to say, but you should debunk misconceptions about energy, not energy itself (i.e. saying 'energy doesn't exist') because by your own definition of energy ('condition or state of a thing'), energy does exist.


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: kaiowas]
    #2236951 - 01/12/04 01:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

energy only exists in our head




Try sticking a knife in an electrical socket and see if you still believe that. :lol:


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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Invisibletekramrepus
Female User Gallery
Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 2,232
Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: pattern]
    #2236984 - 01/12/04 01:59 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I agree that to some extent, energy only exists in our heads.

Whats your point?

Energy to me is a measure of the force being applied, kinetic energy....of the potential force thats possible to be applied - potential energy.

In your reasoning, neither Temperature nor Humidity readings exist beyond our head either. They are measurements, just like Energy is.


Watch dragonballz to clear up your misconceptions about energy :laugh:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,788
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: trendal]
    #2237214 - 01/12/04 03:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Well now that I have some more time :smile:

Energy is most certainly not only in our head, if you ask me. I would say that energy is simply matter lacking mass, as I hinted at in my previous post. I'm sure you are all aware of Einstein's formula, E=mc^2. It does not simply state that energy and matter can be converted to one another...it states that matter and energy are equivalent to one another. Matter is, according to the formula, merely a condensed form of energy.

This reminds me a lot of the Final Fantasy series of games, and the concept in many of them of crystals which are condensed forms of energy (Mako, or whatever they call it in the specific game). This may not be that far off from the truth...only that all matter is condensed energy and not just crystals.

The general state of physics today:
There are four "fundamental" Forces in existence (EM, gravitational, weak and strong nuclear). These forces cause matter to undergo a change in position/velocity thru "force carriers" which we can think of as energy. The EM force passes it's energy through the photon particle. The same applies to the other 3 forces, with each having their own force-carrier (although the graviton has never been seen...).

Hmm, I know I'm rambling, but there's just so much to talk about with this subject! :smirk:

May be more to come later, after I've had a bite to eat (just got home from work...)


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: trendal]
    #2237395 - 01/12/04 05:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

e=mcc means to me, that for every 1 unit of Mass, there are cc units of Energy.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: pattern]
    #2237426 - 01/12/04 05:34 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

That's not what it is intended to mean...

It is supposed to provide an equivalence principle between matter and energy.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: trendal]
    #2237431 - 01/12/04 05:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

if m=1, then e=cc


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
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Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: pattern]
    #2237438 - 01/12/04 05:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

for every 1 unit of Mass, there are cc units of Energy

Well ok, this is true if the mass is converted into energy. It is not to say (I'm not sure if this is what you are implying...) that for every 1 unit of mass in the universe there also exists cc units of energy. Just that 1 unit of mass is cc units of energy.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: pattern]
    #2237459 - 01/12/04 05:48 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

e=mcc means to me, that for every 1 unit of Mass, there are cc units of Energy.

How much energy in my 1500cc V-twin hawg?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
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Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: trendal]
    #2237466 - 01/12/04 05:49 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Just that 1 unit of mass is cc units of energy.




That's exactly what I am implying. :wink:


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,788
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: Swami]
    #2237473 - 01/12/04 05:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Depends how much mass it has :wink:

pattern: oh ok good man, I wasn't sure where you were going at first :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: Swami]
    #2237474 - 01/12/04 05:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
e=mcc means to me, that for every 1 unit of Mass, there are cc units of Energy.

How much energy in my 1500cc V-twin hawg?




Depends how full your gas tank is! :sun:


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: pattern]
    #2238276 - 01/13/04 02:11 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"Try sticking a knife in an electrical socket and see if you still believe that."

:lol:

again another misconception that electricity is energy, in the physics sence, whatever that means :smile:.  when you stick your knife into that socket, electrons are going into and around your body interacting with your neutral charge.  see when you stick your knife in there, you become part of the system.  if you are grounded, then the system will always try to neutralize itself.  thios is charge interacting with charge, electrons passing from one atom to the other.  the way we describe the transfer involves energy, not the transfer itself.  this is what I mean by in our heads. it is we who put this idea there, the idea wasn't there till we decided it was there.  sure transfers of forces always go on, but we want to describe it in order to make it useful.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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Offlineentiformatie
EvolutionaryMovements
Male
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 1,043
Loc: miami, florida
Last seen: 13 years, 25 days
Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: kaiowas]
    #2241088 - 01/14/04 10:14 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

so for instance you lean up again a wall, yes you tire because of the continuous contractions of muscles, and you are, in the common sense, working. having such effortsdoesn't cause an energy transfer from you or the wall since nothing is moving.




alright, i love physics, but i dont know all that much about it. but isnt there a transfer of energy from you to the wall, in the form of heat, from whichever has more "energy", to whichever has less "energy."

i definitely agree that energy is only a concept to represent something with numbers, but just like wealth is representing an amount of money, what is energy representing? i figure it's the movement of atoms and electrons and shit. but i only passed physics because the teacher was out of her fuckin head. one day, she fell over, and told me the wall pushed her. this wasn't a reference to her pushing against the wall and it pushing back. nope. just too many drugs :-)


--------------------
/opinion
.sean


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Invisiblechunder
marker

Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 966
Loc: The City
Re: misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist [Re: kaiowas]
    #2241203 - 01/14/04 11:45 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

In Physics "energy" was originally a technique to analyze motion. soon scientist figured out that this could be applied to other situations like chemical reactions, geological processes, biological functioning, things that do not involve motion.

All of those processes involve motion.


--------------------


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