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Offlinegluke bastid
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Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?!
    #949453 - 10/10/02 01:06 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Disclaimer: I am honestly not trying to be a smartass by posting this thread. But Mr. Mushrooms said that anything based fundamentally on science doesn't belong in spirituality & philisophy and I think that brings up a very interesting philosiphical spiritual question.


Namely, is this true? I don't think so. I really see science as a philosiphy and mode of thinking. Consider what science replaced, mysticism. Mysticism as a way of understanding the universe places opposite conecptions upon experience, namely, that what is meaningful need not be categorized or explained. Life, behavior and the universe is a meaningful aesthetic experience. There is no room for aesthetics, subjectivity in science. Doesn't this make it a philosiphy? Science assumes that the entire universe can be explained by pursuing experiments, adopting hypothesis, and coming up with fundamental laws about how everything in the universe works. How on earth can you tell me that this is not a spiritual standpoint? Science replaced God with science, it is just that this is tricky to see because science doesn't bother to stop and explain itself. That doesn't make science any less preachy or based on assumption.


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Anonymous

Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: gluke bastid]
    #949478 - 10/10/02 01:13 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Bravo! Well Done! This is another example of how science can be discussed in this forum. Science has usurped not only mysticism but philosophy itself. It really thinks it is the answer to all questions. Guess what? It ain't and by a long shot!

Science misses the mark on so many things because of its philosophical presuppositions.

More on this later.

Cheers,


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: gluke bastid]
    #949483 - 10/10/02 01:15 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Was thinking the same thing. Our laboratories are our temples, our physicists are our high priests.


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: gluke bastid]
    #949539 - 10/10/02 01:35 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

Science assumes that the entire universe can be explained by pursuing experiments, adopting hypothesis, and coming up with fundamental laws about how everything in the universe works.





wrong.
some people do. the scientific method is just that though, a method. one that works to find solutions to problems. it doesn't "assume" anything by itself.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: ]
    #949550 - 10/10/02 01:43 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Science has usurped not only mysticism but philosophy itself. It really thinks it is the answer to all questions.



Really, Mr_Mushrooms!  Please don't turn science into a deity by anthropomorphizing it.  Science no more has consciousness of itself than a game of tiddlywinks does.  But then, I suspect you know that already. :wink: 


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineMetasyn
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: gluke bastid]
    #949552 - 10/10/02 01:44 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Spirituality, philosophy, and science all do the same thing: attempt to explain the universe in which we live. Spirituality does it by knowledge contained within, science by knowledge discovered in the world, and philosophy by combining knowledge contained in ourselves with the logic and empiricism of science. As such, as see them all as being part of the same continuum. I think we should remane this form "Describing the universe" or something and make it all encompassing.


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: Metasyn]
    #949767 - 10/10/02 03:42 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I tend to lean toward Metasyn's POV. I think the three (spirituality, Science, Philosophy) are all precursors and products of one another. I guess it's kind of like the chicken and the egg routine. Where one field is lacking the other tries to pick up the slack. The funny thing about science is that it becomes what many scientists try to explain away......Dogma.

I think the area where too much of this world is in err is in trying to adhere to just one. The three don't have to face off, they can coexist and support one another, not break each other down. I think the difficulty in trying to live by this is when something gets disproven and it is looked at as a victory by one branch instead of a learning experience.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: chemkid]
    #949789 - 10/10/02 03:52 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

three stages swallowed by one breathe


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


Edited by CleverName (10/10/02 03:53 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: Evolving]
    #949905 - 10/10/02 04:52 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

I anthropomorphize science because its deification was completed long ago by fools who think it is the only way to understand the universe.  As ChemKid, et al have pointed out in this thread there are other ways of understanding the universe and the fact is that when understood properly each field of knowledge, i.e. philosophy, science, and spirituality, contribute heavily to the others.  Gould's NOMA could not have been more wrong.  As he is only a mere scientist it is only natural that he did not understand that.  Any expert outside their chosen field is but a tyro.

Cheers, 


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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: ]
    #949973 - 10/10/02 05:26 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

So instead of a Science forum why not just rename this one Spirituality & Philosophy & Science ?
Are there really that many 'science only' posts that they need their own forum?


Edited by dee_N_ae (10/10/02 05:27 PM)


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #949993 - 10/10/02 05:35 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I pretty much agree with dee_N_ae... I don't mind science merging with spirituality and philosophy, although the occasional "your beliefs are wrong because science says so" attitude can get annoying......


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #950028 - 10/10/02 05:46 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

"the scientific method is just that though, a method. one that works to find solutions to problems. it doesn't "assume" anything by itself."

but isn't working scientifically to fins a solution to problem an assumption that the scientific answer is THE answer? I mean, there are lots of different ways to solve a problem. Egyptians answered the question as to why the sun rises in the east and sets in the west by believing that it was a god that travelled above ground every day and underground every night. Science answered it drastically differently, becuase science assumes that gods like that don't exist. I think science assumes a lot of things, or more accurately, one has to embrace certain assumptions if one wants to do anything in the name of science, i.e. repeated, objective observations about behaviors in nature can lead to a hypothesis involving natural, static laws that set that behavior in motion.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: gluke bastid]
    #950110 - 10/10/02 06:09 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

but isn't working scientifically to fins a solution to problem an assumption that the scientific answer is THE answer?

I think science assumes a lot of things, or more accurately, one has to embrace certain assumptions if one wants to do anything in the name of science, i.e. repeated, objective observations about behaviors in nature can lead to a hypothesis involving natural, static laws that set that behavior in motion.


Science is a great way of creating models- for creating bridges between observable ?reality? and the way humans comprehend ?reality.? To think that science is ?the answer?- giving science the status of a religion- or that it will lead to some ultimate truth is an assumption held by people, and not necessary for the practice of the method itself. Science rules out explanations, it doesn?t prove any ?truth?- to think that it will eventually lead to some grand unification theory of absolutely everything is an assumption held by people. Good post.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: Adamist]
    #950173 - 10/10/02 06:28 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

i dont see anything wrong with bashing people for their beliefs. beliefs are the source of all that is wrong on earth.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: 1stimer]
    #950175 - 10/10/02 06:28 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

and that is what i believe. :grin:


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: 1stimer]
    #950180 - 10/10/02 06:30 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

/me bashes 1stimer with his club
OOGA!!
BELIEF BAD!!!


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: 1stimer]
    #950187 - 10/10/02 06:32 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

And oppression of beliefs is also a major source of what is wrong with the world...


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: Adamist]
    #950219 - 10/10/02 06:36 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

that is competition of beliefs.
"ooga me believe"


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: gluke bastid]
    #950225 - 10/10/02 06:37 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

A) The philosophy of science, is a philosophy.

B) Science (scientia=knowledge) has NOT replaced mysticism. In the words of the classic writer on the topic, Evelyn Underhill: "Mysticism is the art of union with Reality. The mystic is a person who has attained that union in greater or less degree; or who aims at and believes in such attainment." So, for the theist, Ultimate Reality is God, and God is never the 'object' of observation because God is not 'an object' among other objects. WE are the relative 'objects,' and God is the ONE subject. It is not that God is an idea in our minds - but rather we are ideas in the Mind of God.

C) Whereas "aesthetics" might not be a specific concern of pure science, there IS a concern for 'symmetry.' Symmetry includes perfect form (in a Pythagorean and a mathematically symbolic way), and may well approach or approximate the human emotional reponse to aesthetics (gee, it happened to Seven of Nine!)

D) There is NO SUCH THING as scientific objectivity. That is just 19th century philosophy of science. Human observation, with or without instrumentation, is always a part of the observed phenomenon. Subject-object division here is a fiction. Human intellect can play at being the 'All-seeing eye of God,' but the conclusions will be flawed. The experimenter is part of the experiment. Phenomenologically speaking, consciousness underlies both poles of subject and object.

E) The simple discussion of physical phenomenon does not belong in a spirituality and philosophy forum, but the discussion about how physical laws (to which science is dedicated) operate in certain philosophies of science, say, 'backward causation,' or 'precognition,' seems relevant. The entire nature of psychophysical reality is being questioned in that instance. Remember...philosophy asks 'why?' while science asks 'how?'


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Anonymous

Re: Science isn't philosiphy?!?!?! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #950273 - 10/10/02 06:45 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Picture a broad grin on my face as I stand in front of my monitor applauding again!

You are on a role.

Cheers,


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