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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: philosiphy of religion [Re: aluminum_can]
    #365447 - 08/02/01 11:24 AM (21 years, 15 days ago)

My thoughts generally lead down the "what if [bizzare idea here]?" path often. Exactly we can't know. The one problem is that you have to assume. If you were to try to evaluate your own behaviour from every "what if" that you can come up with, you would be unable to make any meaningful choices about how you behave. Basically, you have to assume something, and most people will go one to assume that they exist and that this consensus reality is a somewhat accurate representation of what's actually out there.

Religion gives people a sense of purpose. Maybe some people want to be able to assume more instead of assuming less.



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OfflinePhyl
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Re: philosiphy of religion [Re: Kid]
    #365455 - 08/02/01 11:41 AM (21 years, 14 days ago)

you have to assume something, and most people will go one to assume that they exist and that this consensus reality is a somewhat accurate representation of what's actually out there.

That's all well and good, and probably a natural thing to do, but in reality (no pun intended) this is also flawed. The reality that we live in every day, that you are assuming is a somewhat accurate representation is also just a manifestation of our minds, created by varius stimuli acting upon our senses.
Outside of our minds all that exists is energy. There are no solid objects, there is no light, there is no sound, etc, and this isn't even remotely similar to our own interpretation of reality.

Take care

Phil



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OfflineCACA
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Registered: 07/12/01
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Re: philosiphy of religion [Re: Phyl]
    #365471 - 08/02/01 12:07 PM (21 years, 14 days ago)

All those things are how we interpret them to be, right? Even if this is part of a much larger hyperreality, everything here can be compared to what is there, including the journey to get there and the times when we can be so unaware of what we are doing. (Neil Diamiond sucks) But, there has to be sunlight, because we see it. If we didn't, we wouldn't have said it was there. There is evidence it is there. Yeah, we have been spawned from (GOD does Neil Diamond suck) light and we see things accordingly, but you cannot say that it doesn't exist. Where does the energy emanate from? Why is it there? If you say that light doesn't exist, then can't you say that the absence of light doesn't exist, either? Where do you draw the line? Are you saying that in other realities, these can be true? Even if we do create new realities (which is entirely possible) with different laws, it will always be based on certain things. Some things never change. Microcosms and all that. The things that never change create new ideas and new traits and characteristics when they meet new scenarios, as will always be, but this is not to say that the new scenario hasn't been met before and that there aren't "things that never change" out there that haven't gathered new traits about it because of this already, its just to say that this is true. Yeah, "new" things, but some things never change. One thing, the brain will always comprehend. You can learn this just by observing growth cycle (which you probably know - and I could be wrong, not about the growth cycle, I think) - you know, microcosms, macrocosms. Perfect analogies and the improbability that any analogy is ever good enough to really be an analogy to some degree. This just proves that it depends on the way you look at it, I think. I think life is whatever you make it to be. So, as to Claude Rifat, whose work is full of holes, reality isn't more complicated than we once thought, he is about to make it all the more complicated. Eh.. what was I saying? Depression ...

:frown:


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5


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OfflinePhyl
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Re: philosiphy of religion [Re: CACA]
    #365547 - 08/02/01 02:01 PM (21 years, 14 days ago)

All those things are how we interpret them to be, right?
It would initially seem so, but is this true?

Look at the keyboard in front of you. It's solid, right. It's made from atoms, just as everything. Now think about those atoms, they are something like 95% empty space. This means that your keyboard is 95% empty space. You may interpret it as solid, but in reality it is anything but solid.

everything here can be compared to what is there, including the journey to get there and the times
Time as we understand it is a creation of your mind. Time and space very closely linked, and may even be the same thing. As you move faster and faster through space, time slows down.

Do you believe that an insect that only lives for 24 hours will experience time in the same way you do? What about a tree or a stone?

But, there has to be sunlight, because we see it
Light is simply your eyes picking up specific frequencies of radiation. Everything we see is just a form of radiation reflecting off atoms. Light, Radiowaves, X-Rays and gamma radiation are all forms of radiation. The only difference is that out eyes are configured to pick up the frequencies we know as light.

I'm not denying that radiation exists, but I am denying that light exists outside of our minds.

If you say that light doesn't exist, then can't you say that the absence of light doesn't exist, either? Where do you draw the line
I'm saying light is our minds interpreting signals that are generated by our senses. Light as we know it doesn't exist outside our minds. If light doesn't exist, then there cannot be light or absense of light. In some places the radiation is stronger than others, hence light and no light.

Even if we do create new realities (which is entirely possible) with different laws, it will always be based on certain things
Any new reality we create with different laws must by definition exist only in our minds. We cannot change the laws of physics.

This just proves that it depends on the way you look at it
This is exactly my point. It's all in your mind.





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Offlinealuminum_can
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Re: philosiphy of religion [Re: Phyl]
    #365620 - 08/02/01 03:43 PM (21 years, 14 days ago)

the thing is that oxygen is a drug!!! it makes you hallucinate! that is all! oxygen is what takes those atoms and turns them into images. they really arent real!

sleeping by yourself at night can make you feel alone,
youre girlfriend said so, but i dont really know
Closet Cultivation


--------------------
the little kridders of nature; they dont know that thyre ugly!



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OfflineCACA
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Registered: 07/12/01
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Re: philosiphy of religion [Re: Phyl]
    #365623 - 08/02/01 03:47 PM (21 years, 14 days ago)

If you are trying to say that you too believe that everything depends on how you look at it, then why are you saying that light doesnt exist? lol You took some stuff out of context, maybe just to convey an extra idea or two, but, seriously Phyl, I'm glad you're not getting nasty like some other people do. =) The indians weren't wrong when they knew there needed to be a certain balance for mother nature to maintain herself and now scientists have empirical evidence of this. I realize this is more of a negative of what we're talking about, but its enough. Which was right? Yeah, both. The difference is that some people could feel it and some people were greedy and blind and numb. I think that last statement might have nothing to do with the point, but its true and it pisses me off that things came to be the way they are. Mad at the impossibility of anything happening differently. If you know how humans are, you can see that there was no other way for things to happen-ever. I forgot what I was saying... I think that light does exist outside of our minds. More than most definitely not every race in the universe sees light as we do, but, there have to be more out there that do. Every solar system out there has a star in the middle of it. You're not too old, are you, Phyl?

:frown:


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5


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Offlinealuminum_can
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Re: philosiphy of religion [Re: CACA]
    #365637 - 08/02/01 04:07 PM (21 years, 14 days ago)

the idians also had shamans, which could communiucate with animals and living things. the indians knew of forces we cant even imagine!

sleeping by yourself at night can make you feel alone,
youre girlfriend said so, but i dont really know
Closet Cultivation


--------------------
the little kridders of nature; they dont know that thyre ugly!



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OfflinePhyl
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Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 597
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: philosiphy of religion [Re: CACA]
    #365779 - 08/02/01 06:57 PM (21 years, 14 days ago)

If you are trying to say that you too believe that everything depends on how you look at it, then why are you saying that light doesnt exist?

When it comes down to it, everything that we think of as real, is just energy. The subatomic particles that are the building blocks for the structure in our universe are nothing more than points of energy. On a macroscopic level objects appear to be solid, but once you are looking on a microscopic level, and get as close as we can get to the fundamental building blocks of matter it only exists only as energy.
Bouncing around in this energy is a huge ammount of radiation, which is also energy which is moving with a specic frequency of wave. Some of these frequencies we call radio waves, some of them we call microwaves, some of them we call light. It's all essentially the same.

The world we exist in is created for us by our minds. The only connection we have to the outside world is through our senses. Our brain takes in information from our senses and combines this with our consciousness to create what we call reality. In our reality we see light, we hear sound, we feel, we taste etc, but on a fundamental level, outside of our minds this is simply energy interecting with other energy.

I'm sure many creatures from other worlds would see light as we do, but that is only because there is a convenient source of that frequence of energy available. It's the presence of the source that is important, not the frequency, as evolution will take care of the rest. If there was an abundant source of another energy, then they would use that instead, or possibly in conjunction with light.
There are creatures that live on the bottom of the sea that live without light. To them, Iight doesn't exist as they don't have the senses to register that frequency of energy. They would be unaware of light, just as without equipment we are unaware of radio waves.

Am I making any sense? I know what I'm trying to say, but I'm a bit stoned, so I'm probably just babbling.

You're not too old, are you, Phyl?
:) I suppose that depends on what you think of as old...
I'm 23.... Is that old? I don't really know...

Take care

Phil



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OfflineCACA
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Re: philosiphy of religion [Re: Phyl]
    #365815 - 08/02/01 07:59 PM (21 years, 14 days ago)

Yeah, but they're aware of the absence of light aren't they? There is no light down there (generated by the sun that we can see so far). The creatures down there generate light, so their senses can register light. Anyways, I don't see how you can't see that what you're trying to say isn't really contradictory to what I'm saying at all. The keys are solid enough (for us) to call them solid, so they are. Yeah, the world we exist in is understood by our minds... okay? lol And it isn't OUTSIDE of our minds that its JUST energy interacting, we are energy factories. We deal with energy. We know all about it. Different kinds of "energy" manifested differently is just plain different. Your ongoing chemical reactions are keeping you alive and they are JUST energy reacting. You eat food, which is energy. Your energy extracts energy from that energy and you end up with more energy. You choose to stop at microscopic when there is much more to be seen by looking at it on a smaller level. I stop at saying its solid. I don't see the point at continuing at this lol you just keep saying that something isn't what you think it is for the exact same reason that it is what it is, which is fruitless! lol Thought you weren't that old. I'm a geezer- 19.

:frown:

Edited by CACA on 08/02/01 07:02 PM.



--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5


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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: philosiphy of religion [Re: aluminum_can]
    #365967 - 08/03/01 12:25 AM (21 years, 14 days ago)

> the thing is that oxygen is a drug!!! it makes you hallucinate! that is all! oxygen is what takes those atoms and turns them into images. they really arent real!

YOU ARE SO FUCKING STUPID! SHUT THE FUCK UP! You started this thread with a stupid ass message which I responded to. Then this thread turned into a great little debate between a bunch of us. Thanks for your stupid contributions. It's obvious that you can't even follow what the fuck we are talking about.



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InvisibleKid
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Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: philosiphy of religion [Re: CACA]
    #365974 - 08/03/01 12:33 AM (21 years, 14 days ago)

I don't know if you can say that light exists out of our minds. It's like saying that colour exists outside of our minds. Colour is just the way we interpret varying wavelengths or combinations of wavelengths of electromagnetic energy. Light is the presence of the visible spectrum of electromagnetic energy. Light in the human sense, might not fully represent "light" to another creature, and light to other creatures might not be visible to us at all (such as infrared, which snakes see).

How much of our world is perception? Which qualities can we say actually exist? It's the same thing as qualifying an object as solid or liquid. The object itself is just a bunch of atoms and/or molecules. What makes it liquid or solid depends on the consistency and bonding between those particles. That's a pretty abstract quality, but I'm sure that most people wouldn't doubt that solidness and liquidness exist.

Science gets right down to the very building blocks of the physical universe around us. It's what you can see and test.

Still, there's always the possibility of Descartes' Evil Demon being the master of the universe, and if that's the case, well, fuck it...



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OfflinePhyl
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Registered: 01/18/00
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Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: philosiphy of religion [Re: CACA]
    #366071 - 08/03/01 04:27 AM (21 years, 14 days ago)

I don't see the point at continuing at this lol you just keep saying that something isn't what you think it is for the exact same reason that it is what it is, which is fruitless!
Don't worry about it, man. I think you're somewhat missing my point, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. I think we just have very different perspectives.
The ideas I'm trying to get across (Somewhat unsecesfully) are absoloutly fundamental to my understanding of consciousness and the nature of reality, which is why I'm posting. I'm not trying to disagree with you or get into any kind of argument, I'm just trying to put forward some ideas which challenge what many people accept as truth. Food for thought if you like.

Take care

Phil



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OfflineCACA
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Registered: 07/12/01
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Re: philosiphy of religion [Re: Phyl]
    #366164 - 08/03/01 10:38 AM (21 years, 14 days ago)

Yeah, Phyl, I don't want to argue either and I don't want to convey that, because if there were an argument, I would just leave. I'm saying that I DO understand what you're saying, but that you're just looking at it from a different perspective and that we're both correct in our own respects, except, it sounds like you want to say that one way is the right way and another is not the right way, when I'm saying that to think that one way (yours) is right over another way (mine) is the only wrong thing. To think that one level of understanding makes something untrue is to say that something you once believed in, and, maybe discarded for a while for purposes of learning, now know HOW TRUE it is, and that the knowing of how true something is, invalidates the thing you were learning about. I think thats what I'm trying to say..that it was "fruitless" is only because we were prettymuch sharing the brass ring.

:frown:


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5


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OfflineCACA
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Re: philosiphy of religion [Re: Kid]
    #366174 - 08/03/01 10:54 AM (21 years, 14 days ago)

Yes, maybe not light as we understand it-okay- but the idea of light-that it gives life and what not- isn't that preserved? The animals that live without sunlight are living there because of the heat and nutrient vents and bacteria that live there. Without the sun, none of that stuff would exist, because the Earth wouldn't be hot to create those vents. But that the organisms create light in a place where light has never shone, does that say anything? Light, atleast on this planet, is certainly of the essence of life. They use light-traps to catch fish and eat them. Maybe this means death, but without death there wouldn't be the life. Death and life working so closely together.. =)  the most advanced form of human being born the first time a person took their life. This is why I am opposed to people trying to defeat death. In South America, people who not so long ago knew nothing of the business of the world, were living in the bliss of ignorance and the land. I know they probably had their own ignorant ones and knowledgable ones, since the human has elasticity when it comes to situations, but the more a person tries to have it his own way, the more problems that person can have. Those people who had nothing to do with us are having hell to pay and are now forced to sell their land. They sell their land so we can put cows that graze on grass, because their forest floor is very nutrient-rich. Before these cows, the plants had a chance to die and rot and enrich the soil. Now, that doesn't happen and the soil loses those characteristics we loved it for. Also, its packed solid so nothing can grow there from cows stepping on it. Death has to happen and I don't want to pay the consequences of defeating it. Yeah, industrial problems call for industrial solutions, but defeating death is something I want nothing to do with. What was I talking about..??

:frown:


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5


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InvisibleKid
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Registered: 07/22/00
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Re: philosiphy of religion [Re: CACA]
    #366208 - 08/03/01 12:09 PM (21 years, 13 days ago)

Well, yes, the electromagnetic radiation which makes it through our ozone layer is generally only that at the visible light spectrum, which is what probably caused life in the first place. Still, other parts of the spectrum could have caused it (say on some other planet). Also, when you really get down to it, life is a bunch of complex chemical reactions taking place, so maybe simply heat (a rise in the average kinetic energy of molecules), from any heat source, could've caused life. In that case it looks like it's energy that caused life. Life being the organized, adaptable interaction of a system of matter. Matter being different from energy in that it seems to occupy a volume, and have a mass, but still convertable to energy. Is energy convertable to mass? No I've lost myself...



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OfflineCACA
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Re: philosiphy of religion [Re: Kid]
    #366223 - 08/03/01 12:34 PM (21 years, 13 days ago)

Well, heat doesn't always have to be the source of life, but I get what you're saying. But, as I now say, humans aren't much of an advanced species until we can undo things instead of just doing them- until we can go in reverse as well as forward. As for the spectrum, sure other parts of the spectrum created life. No energy is wasted, right? I see what you're saying about energy causing life, though. I tend not to think of thought that I don't yet have on command. Maybe later on I'll think of something. I don't like thinking scientifically. There are too many details that are eventually only going to at the most modify a truth so that it can be nanoanatomically correct.

:frown:


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5


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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
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Registered: 07/15/01
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Re: philosiphy of religion [Re: Kid]
    #368916 - 08/08/01 07:22 PM (21 years, 8 days ago)

Hi Kid.. Before I make any comments, I like to apologize for antagoning your skepticism.

I have become a reactionary instead of being poised and neutral. I have failed at a lesson I've learnt from the past year: we are brothers and sisters, and should be treated as such.

So once again, I apologized for such behavior, it was very uncharacteristic of me.

I am unable to respond fully to your comments, but I will respond to some...

In reply to:

Many things in the history of mankind are uproariously laughable. Even in our day and age, I'm absolutely certain, that a century from now, people will laugh at some of the things we believe. For me, skepticism is a guard against being outright wrong from the very start.

Yes, no doubt.. there are the bad fruits and the good fruits. Taoist practices are one of the good, a science of health for the mind, heart, and body. If you are skeptical of such practices, then various forms of kung fu would fall in that category too. I'm sure you're not a skeptic of that too?? The evidence is in the people who use and benefit from it. And the only evidence you will ever uncover is when you try it yourself. The fruits of wisdom must be labored by the oneself, even if one is a skeptic. :o)

*** Yahoo Groups has informative forums on Tai Chi/Qi Gong. People of all walks of life are involved in this wonderful practice.

In reply to:

I don't see the spiritual level. It's far too abstract. Really, I'm not too sure what you're talking about when you talk about spirituality.




You lack the experiences?? You have no idea when I mention jhanic or sublime states?

Spirituality is about the basic concept of connection. You can touch a flower and stir the star. The laws of physics understand [gravity] a waterdrop falling into the ocean, while a buddhist sees the ocean falling and merging into the waterdrop. The power of perception is the essence of being who you are. All we have is a spiritual quotient, our spiritual intelligence yet to be tapped into.

*** An example of connection: my favourity color has always been blue. I never knew why until I read about auras' meaning on colors. Blue symbolizes innate spirituality and philosophy. In my writing, the captial L closely resembles the L in the graphologoy alphabet [Vimala Alphabet]. The alphabet states it represents innate spirituality. My fingers on my hand can flex back to around 130 degrees. The first and second phalanges on my fingers can flex back from 20 to 90 degrees. It shows how increbible flexible, agile, and reflexive I can be in areas of metaphysics and esoterics that required a great amount of open-mindedness.
In reply to:

This is an aside, not directed right at you: Most people claim to have a spiritual side. Most ideas of spirituality or most applications for spirituality are highly variable (some believe in using drugs, others in chants, etc). All of these inconsistencies, based around on abstract idea don't give me a very good picture of what that idea (spirituality) is supposed to be.
I used to consider myself very spiritual, but now, it's not that I consider myself UN-spiritual, it's just that I'm not sure what spirituality is supposed to be.




Spirituality is about seeking and finding a path that suits you. A journey in studying oneself thoroughly before you are ready to venture into other unexplored places. It is your personal truth and transformation that reflects that new part of you. It is not an easy path to follow as we expect it to be. I am certainly no different from you, I shared the same feelings of disconnection and confusion at times. It's growing pains, testing our armor at our weak points.

It is really up to you on how much value you place on spiritual path. One of my personal truth:

"The more difficult it is to stay on the spiritual path, the more substantial the value in return."

"To suffer is to know the wisdom of happiness."

For Twilight

BTW - no offense was taken..







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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
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Re: philosiphy of religion [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #369674 - 08/10/01 05:58 AM (21 years, 7 days ago)

pay respect to Ganesha below!



--------------------


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