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Anonymous

Re: Is Islam a tolerant religion? [Re: ]
    #821150 - 08/16/02 03:42 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I thought we'd see eye to eye on this.

Cheers,


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OfflineTraveller
enthusiast
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 309
Last seen: 14 years, 2 days
Re: Is Islam a tolerant religion? [Re: Phred]
    #822656 - 08/17/02 03:57 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

hey man sorry i seemed to be refuting everything you wrote originally....i'll try to say what i was thinking a bit more clearly.

i haven't read the koran or ever even seen a copy, nor have i read the bible, but many of the bits of the bible i have read are really shocking. stuff about keeping slaves, the wrath of god striking down the infidels, sacrificing goats (all old testament) and on and on, then revelations - definately my favourite part of the bible so far - which seems to be the mad visions of a mystic.

but i think that the so-called holy scriptures and the state of the organized religions themselves should not be confused with original teachings of the various saints prophets or enlightened folks that started it all. i agree that organised religions are generally pretty lame and often very dangerous in the way they group people, always "us" and "them".

in the case of the theravada buddhist traditions in places like sri lanka, burma and thailand, the organisation of the monks order has been dedicated to keeping the original teachings of siddhartha gautama, the "buddha", alive and unchanged, since they were first written down more than 2000 years ago. these teachings are still perfectly relevant today and they detail a very clear path to follow to attain the various mindstates on the road to enlightenment - liberation from the percieved duality of human existence (happiness sadness love hate desire aversion...). I for one am grateful to these many people who have dedicated their lives to this path and to passing these teachings on. without the organisation it would not have been possible. the catholic church i'm not so fond of and i think they have perverted the teachings of jesus to their own ends...

which brings me back to what i said earlier that religion is not the cause of war. you mentioned powerlust, and i really think that powerlust under a veil of religious fervour is the real killer. the crusades were a bullshit excuse to go to war, just as islam had nothing to do with that shit at the world trade center. you say the people behind these things new what they were doing and why, and i agree, but i still say that ignorance - ignorance of the true nature of one's own existence - was and is the underlying factor behind all acts of hatred and selfishness.

have you never shouted at your mother? has she never screamed at you? haven't you ever insulted another person, deliberately or not? haven't you ever been hurt by another persons words? have you never wanted something, however small, that wasn't yours? aren't these the same emotions that are behind every human conflict? sure they can be magnified many times when people are pulled together in larger and larger groups, when some few people join people together and tell them they are right! they are special! their anger is justified! those OTHERs are the CAUSE of their problems!

i do not believe the others can be blamed. i do imagine a world with no religion, no more us and them, a universal search for truth and peace....but i think the way to this is through each of us working to purify our own minds.

and now that i've pulled some profound wise truth-as-i-see-it out of my ass i'm going downstairs to watch telly.


FUCK ORGANISED RELIGION!

PEACE! LOVE! FUCK YOU CHURCH GOING TURBAN WEARING DUMBSHITS ME AND MY MATES WANT PEACE AND LOVE!

can't you see what's wrong with this?

trainspotting!


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Offlinepostalboy
I'm not myfucking khaki's!
Registered: 06/07/02
Posts: 228
Loc: My tiny corner of the pad...
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Is Islam a tolerant religion? [Re: Traveller]
    #822956 - 08/17/02 08:22 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

what are we going to do about it? throw our hands up and say fuck organised religion? fuck the government? fuck the police?

as pinky said. This would be a good start. And I didn't say ALL wars are based on religious differences. I mentioned the ones that are. This isn't the political forum and I didn't want to start my anarchist chant here. I would post that in the other forum. This post was about intolerant religions. So I mentioned religious intolerance. And to clarify I never said Peace love. I believe that we need killing. Things die and are killed. It is the law of the jungle. But at least some killing isn't necessary. Nazis, Taliban, and the massacre of natives to take their land because you own land is intolerant.

Think about that. America was founded on the premise that since our countries don't tolerant our religion we will move across the ocean and kill and enslave whoever is there so WE can have our religious freedom. Their religious freedom is not as important as OUR religious freedom.

FUCK THAT!!!!!! I wish the Natives would have fucking killed all those english, dutch, spaniard bastards. But they had guns and religion so they won. And the world has went downhill ever since. And yes I am part Crow. Not enough to matter to the gubment but I identify more with it than my european ancestry. I am proud of my Native Blood and ashamed of my other. So now you see my violent side. And Yes I know that without this I wouldn't be here talking but a lot of other people aren't here because their ancestors were wiped out in the name of religious freedom.

Damn I'm such a nice guy until people get me going about organized religions.



--------------------
"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.


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Anonymous

Re: Is Islam a tolerant religion? [Re: postalboy]
    #823211 - 08/17/02 10:37 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I wish the Natives would have fucking killed all those english, dutch, spaniard bastards. But they had guns and religion so they won. And the world has went downhill ever since. And yes I am part Crow. Not enough to matter to the gubment but I identify more with it than my european ancestry. I am proud of my Native Blood and ashamed of my other.

Mitakuye Oyasin, Kola

Cherokee Nation, here.


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
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Re: Is Islam a tolerant religion? [Re: Traveller]
    #823266 - 08/17/02 11:01 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I noticed how often many of you like to generalize everything that has to do with organized faith. Christians, Muslims, and Jews don't represent what their faith is, which is a guidance to something perfect (God). They are simply followers of that faith, if they do evil seperately, or if they do evil in large parties, it still does not represent what their faith truely means. Non-believers have caused more pain and suffering in this world than anything, either directly or indirectly.


--------------------


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Offlinemirror_saw
journeyman
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: Is Islam a tolerant religion? [Re: Zahid]
    #823708 - 08/17/02 03:28 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

What other faiths were accepted by Mohammed? just Judaism and Christianity?


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
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Re: Is Islam a tolerant religion? [Re: mirror_saw]
    #823817 - 08/17/02 04:09 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Muhammad (pbuh) mentioned both Christianity and Judaism as being valid faiths, along with two more by name, but I cant remember them off hand. According to Islam, there were thousands among thousands of prophets of God before the time of Muhammad (pbuh) who was the final messenger of God, revealing the true religion that Abraham, Jesus, Moses, and the others practiced. Inshallah.


--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: Is Islam a tolerant religion? [Re: mirror_saw]
    #823965 - 08/17/02 05:12 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Orthopraxy does not equate to orthodoxy.

Someone's pulling your pbuh.

Cheers,


Edited by Mr_Mushrooms (08/17/02 05:13 PM)


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Offlinemirror_saw
journeyman
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: Is Islam a tolerant religion? [Re: ]
    #824845 - 08/18/02 04:51 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Orthopraxy does not equate to orthodoxy

I agree. I would guess you could find many examples where they certainly don't equate, but you seem to suggest that there is an inevitable conflict between them. My point was that such things are only a problem if you make them a problem.

The orthodox beliefs of a religion can come about in part as an accident of history, in part it is sometimes to do with hierarchy and politics, and in part it is hopefully a symbolic representation of metaphysical truth.

If you concern yourself only with that part that is a symbol of truth, then the rest you can leave for theologians to debate.


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Anonymous

Re: Is Islam a tolerant religion? [Re: mirror_saw]
    #825046 - 08/18/02 08:44 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I was not suggesting that there is an inevitable conflict between the two.

Interesting point that orthopraxy may precede orthodoxy. I do not think this is the case in all orthodoxies. Certain religions hear "voices from on high" and then proceed to follow the instructions of the voice. In those cases orthodoxy precedes orthopraxy.

Cheers,


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Offlinemirror_saw
journeyman
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 59
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: Is Islam a tolerant religion? [Re: ]
    #825374 - 08/18/02 12:15 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Certain religions hear "voices from on high" and then proceed to follow the instructions of the voice. In those cases orthodoxy precedes orthopraxy.

I was looking at it from the point of view of the origin of doctrine decided by early theologians, and not the kind that comes from the prophets of old. I think what your saying is that unquestioning adherence to religious authority is the first form of monotheistic religion and way of worship. The Jews emphasis was on keeping the law with a fear of punishment, NOT choosing to do what is right for it's own sake. I would think that's true up to a point.

I'm sure you would say yourself that "voices from on high" is an oversimplification to quickly illustrate the point, I suspect that such prophets did not transcribe the voice in their head. More likely it is revelation in the sense of mystical experience which they pass on to others as written law for guidance. (although having said that, a lot of the Old Testament does look pathological) Without a doubt there can be a tendency for doctrine from whatever source to be set in stone and attributed as the direct word of God, and any questioning of whether it really is the direct word of God is normally frowned upon (at the very least).


Edited by mirror_saw (08/18/02 01:24 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Is Islam a tolerant religion? [Re: mirror_saw]
    #825630 - 08/18/02 02:23 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

All good points.

Yes, I was speaking metaphorically when I said "voices from on High" and making a pun at the same time. Celestial voices from the Heavens and voices one might hear when a person was high.

Dead orthodoxy is the bane of modern religion.

You are quite articulate. It's nice to converse with you.

Cheers,


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