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 leery11
I Tell You What!
Registered: 06/24/05
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 Re: Blending religions & philosophies  [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5906095 - 07/27/06 05:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
RRRR said:
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Yup. What Silversoul said.
capliberty, perhaps you should invest in a better pair of spectacles and re-read Silversoul's posts instead of shouting blindly from your pedestal
i don't think he's shouting anything dude.
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I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Blending religions & philosophies [Re: leery11]
#5906183 - 07/27/06 05:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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The reference to : "I AM the Way and the Truth and the Life" does NOT refer to young Y'shua the itinerant teacher - it is a reference to "I AM" which is a reference to the Divine 'Ehyeih' the Name of God given to Moses. In this context, it is that aspect of the Godhead that 'interfaces' with the human being, and that aspect is the Logos [Greek]. Now, The Way is what Christians referred to themselves as for 150 years before they called themselves Christians. The Way is being 'in Christ,' being in 'the Logos.'
What is this Logos one may ask? Well, the Chinese had a word for The Way before Jesus and His commentators came around. The Way in Chinese is called 'Tao' or 'Dao' and we've all heard of Taoism. BE HERE NOW said it best when it said "The Way is The Way is The Way." It's like, a rose by any other name is still a rose. God by any other name is still God. The Dalai Lama himself uses the word God when addressing Americans at Harvard and Buddhists don't use the word God.
Contrary to fundamentalist 'Christians' the Logos is not the exclusive possession of Jesus the Christ.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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RRRR
Rapture Ready
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Re: Blending religions & philosophies [Re: leery11]
#5906216 - 07/27/06 06:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
leery11 said:
Quote:
RRRR said:
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Yup. What Silversoul said.
capliberty, perhaps you should invest in a better pair of spectacles and re-read Silversoul's posts instead of shouting blindly from your pedestal
i don't think he's shouting anything dude.
An ignorant whisper is more deafening than an illuminated shout.
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Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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capliberty
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Re: Blending religions & philosophies [Re: RRRR]
#5907236 - 07/27/06 10:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Christian Gnosticism belief that one must have the Gnosis (from Greek to know) or inner knowledge which is mystical knowledge, It is heresy that Paul battled against in some of his letters in the Churches and was condemned in the first Century Church (40-100AD) It resurrected in modern times to the new aged view, that basically anything goes and religion takes on many different forms, especially in the Eastern philosophies, it is no different as the heresy of the Gnosticism of the first century,
Although Gnosticism reside somewhat in obscurity, Gnosticism roots reside before the Christian Era, as its relations reside in some eastern religions of Indian,
Its deep root principles are philosophical and religious pessimism, its terminology and nomenclature, resides in existing religions, but is used to illustrate the escaping of present day evil by the use of magic spells and superhuman Saviors, It has the same parent-sole as Buddhism, but differs in that its endeavors isn't the extinction of desires but is pseudo-intellectual, and trusts exclusively on magical knowledge
Gnostic's latched on the Christian faith like a leach, assimilating all its sacraments, proclaimed Jesus Christ as its lord and Savior, pretended to be an esoteric revelation of Christ, and flooded the world with its versions of the Gospels, acts and Apocalypses to substantiate its claim, All these weird creatures you here about in revelations, those are Gnostic inspired writings, Christ and his apostles had nothing to do with that stuff,
The earliest fathers devoted their energies in up rooting it, In reality Gnosticism is utterly alien to that of Christianity, to those that are unaware, its seems to be a modification of refinement of the actual faith
All in All, Gnosticism is not Christianity, They do not share the same proclamations of Christianity, It was condemned as heresy back then and its no different now, It has caught on now, because it flexible for the new global view to incorporate all religions, but the traditional Christian views and the gnostic views are vastly different,
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Blending religions & philosophies [Re: capliberty]
#5908240 - 07/28/06 07:45 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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You've gotten truth and falsehood braided together. Clement of Alexandria proclaimed himself a Gnostic Christian. Origen was Gnostic in mant regards, Iraeneus vented his spleen against the Gnostics as the agenda of Constantine and Eusebius, known as the great Christian historian, put his own slanted spin on things - not to be believed.
It is true that the Gnostic 'attitude' has Oriental and Indian background. Being older and in certain important respects wiser than the Hebrews, the Hebrews - Jesus included would have held a tribal-salvation of the people, not personally acquired Eternal Life which clearly is the quality of God alone! Eternal Life can be realized only when one becomes identified with God! This derives from Oriental/Indian thought. Greek notions of 'immortality' is markedly different from Eternal Life, yet most Christians believe in some individual survival in the afterlife.
The exclusivist claims of Christianity which identifies the cultus and its practices as 'the ONLY Way to salvation' is the magic of which you speak. Catholic Transubstantiation is the most blatently magical practice in Christendom, not Gnostic practices to the best of my knowledge. Imperialistic crusading Christianity is an extention of the politic of Imperial Rome and it was Christianity that Emperor Constantine chose over Mithraism to bind the Roman Empire together. You, like every other indoctrinated Literalist Christian has never thought to analyze the origins of Christian doctrine - as suspect as it is from all the other religions. Like most people, the unbelievable arrogance of Christianity's claim for exclusivity runs counter to words of Jesus Himself such as "those who are not against us are for us," and "I have come not for the righteous, but for the sinners."
The Gnostic 'attitude' or 'method' not only recognizes that Truth is not a monopoly of the Christian cultus (as if Jesus didn't claim direct continuation of the Jewish faith) it returns the myths to workable processes in the human psyche. Gnostic method shows that myths exist in the realm of mythology, not history, and they can only be salvific when they are understood and realized within the heart of each human being, not awaited as some historical event that is going to pull us up to heaven by our ears.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (07/28/06 09:56 AM)
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capliberty
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I got one simple question, if you think that Jesus was a fraud and a cult, why latch on to the faith?, to me I'd totally drop it for what it is, there is nothing to gain from false hood,
Am I going adopt David Koreshs point of views, NO
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Blending religions & philosophies [Re: capliberty]
#5908546 - 07/28/06 10:33 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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What do you mean by "Jesus was a fraud"? We no almost NOTHING about the historical Jesus. Philo of Alexandria was a Hellenized Jewish philosopher who lived concurrently with Jesus. Philo left copious philosophical writings about the Logos, yet he nowhere even mentions Jesus. Paul cares ONLY about the Resurrected Christ, not the historical Jesus. Albert Schweitzer theologian and physician, started the whole 19th century inquiry with his book The Quest for the Historical Jesus and came to the conclusion that the Jesus of the Gospels was mythic, not historical. It is clear from the contradictory versions of the Gospels (the four included in the NT - there are many others that were destroyed and unknown til recently) that many versions of the Jesus story existed.
Jesus may be a composite of several strands of Jewish, Greek and Oriental influence woven into a personality. The bulk of Christianity would not only have been alien to a 1st centurt Jewish peasant-class carpenter (Y'shua NEVER would have known about a Holy Trinity, or His place within such a construct. He never would have thought that He was God! All of this and more has been laid upon a questionably historical person. When called "Good Master," did Jesus not respond (according to writ) with "Why call thou me good, only God is good?" Johannine thought took th'man anointed by God' and turned Him into 'God clothed with flesh' - a decidedly Greek mythological notion.
Iesus/Y'shua/Issa/Jesus (Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic/English) may or may not have existed as a historical individual. It didn't much matter to Paul, it didn't matter to most Gnostics and it doesn't matter to me. The Truth of Jesus has nothing to do with His historicity but with the Truth that He symbolizes and which is represented in the writings. How to Be a Human and why to Be such is built in to the various Gospels - even more sensibly in Gospels that were not included in the canon. As for 'heresy,' Websters defines it thusly:
Main Entry: her·e·sy
Pronunciation: 'her-&-sE, 'he-r&-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -sies
Etymology: Middle English heresie, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin haeresis, from Late Greek hairesis, from Greek, action of taking, choice, sect, from hairein to take
1 a : adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma b : denial of a revealed truth by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church c : an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma
2 a : dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice b : an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards
I don't know about you, but unlike the medieval mentality that fundamentalists of all faiths still adhere to, I question authority. I have always questioned authority. The Church Fathers and their doctrines NEED to be questioned since they were not all trustworthy. They worked for an evil emperor, they were misogynistic to the max and they looked down upon the illiterate multitudes of believers to such an extent that at one point it became punishable by death for a lay person to be in possession of a Bible!
Myth is not falsehood and it is abysmally ignorant to think so! Read Joseph Campbell's The Power of Myth to understand the meaning of the word 'myth.' Equating the words myth and falsehood is an unfortunate modern mistake. That the intelligent believers have always recognized the midrashic and mythic nature of Gospel stories is unquestionable. That the multitudes (as the Church Fathers knew but exploited) are generally concrete and literal in their understanding has also been true throughout history. The Truth embedded in The Way that Jesus epitomized in the stories may not be historical, but it does not mean that The Way is not true.
I believe that Jesus Christ represents The Way - to Be. I further believe that being conformed to Christ modifies our human nature, transforms us alchemically from baseness to nobility. I know how and what it is like to be trustworthy. I know that it takes continual crucifixion of my selfish desires in order to maintain trustworthiness. I get this 'discipline' from being a 'disciple' of Christ. A beautiful counselee cries on my shoulder - and better a millstone be hung around my neck and me tossed into the sea - than to cop a feel, steal a kiss or exploit her vulnerability in some other base way. Does the desire arise? Yes. Will I act on it? No. Why, fear of disciplinary action on my license? Partly. If the situation takes place with a friend's girlfriend and is not a clinical situation, what stops me? Discipleship. I Know how to Be Christ-like. I too have 'this treasure in an earthen vessel.'
If Christ IS The Kingdom of Heaven, Heaven dwells in a Heart of Compassion, not above the clouds. This is the Truth by which I live. There is no fraud, Christ lives in me too.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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 MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
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Wait... You're trying to imitate a character that was probably imaginary?
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Not imaginary. At the very least, a human being, and quite possibly a composite of mythical elements - universal archetypes called by other names in other times and places and focuses on Jesus, just like all the Hebrew prophesies were coalesced in the Gospels to be realized in the Man.
Horus being suckled by Isis may well be the prototype of Jesus and Mary. Osirus was not crucified but dismembered - literally. His 'member' was not found by his wife Isis, but she conceived Horus by Osirus magically. Osirus was THE deity of Resurrection. The themes don't correspond one-to-one, but magical conception, dismemberment of the God-man, resurrection of the God-man, etc. are all parts that can be reassembled in the Jesus mythos. Read any of Freke's & Gandy's books like The Jesus Mysteries and they will give more than sufficient historical data to illustrate what I am saying.
Hebrew midrash was a technique for illustrating spiritual truths - a literary device - not scientific objectivity or the credibility of a New York Times story. Hey, at one time or another we've all been taken in by the Literalist approach. We've accounted for our suspension of faith in modern science as proof of our ability to have faith, to believe. But hey, if a resusitated corpse is what Resurrection means to you, that is your choice to stop at the story-line and not ask yourself "What does this really mean?" I've been asking that question and getting better answers than believing that the story is historical. The Gospel accounts are like pictographs - worded images that represent an invisible reality.
Following Jesus can't work against your life, only for your life. He or His teachings are about 'agape' which is phenomenologically like the dispassionate love of Buddhist Compassion. What are you goung to do with your life if life isn't about human development? Amass a fortune just to feed your base mammalian desires, or actually do something to bring Christ into this world in some measure in your own person?
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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capliberty
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Hold on, now your at least acknowledging Jesus was being an actual man, we're making some progress here,
Being 200 yrs removed from the actual accounts of Christ isn't very long, I know for a fact that George Washington was the president of the United States, no one doubts this, and he's 200 years removed from the present day,
The Gospels give a little bit more legitimacy then people give credit, the fierce debate about what books where going to be added and what books weren't was not even an issue with the gospels and the letters of Paul, these were automatically submitted as authentic accounts of Jesus story, the debates were on all these speculative writing coming from some these Gnostic's and other story tellers about certain accounts that had no real backing behind them.
Some of these writings were speculating on the childhood of Jesus, him performing miracles as a child and all this other speculations about his life and lives of his followers. But even the overwhelming amount of literature that was produced, false or true, that came in the next few centuries after Jesus's death, kinda shows that there was a Jesus, and he definitely had some powerful views,
Of course there was some early accounts that said Jesus was more of a moral teacher, but there was so much controversy even back then, on what actually was going on, I mean think about it he got crucified as an impostor, you think those people went away
and this might draw up on a strong argument against the legitimacy of Christ, because there was so much folk lore being spread around, that maybe Christ was manifested bigger than what he was through all this folk lore,
but the Church back then knew to a certain degree what was actually true accounts of his story and what was heresy, The gospels and the letters of Paul were truest and most authentic accounts out all of the gospels, and there were plenty of this extra gospels circulating around, some may have some true tid bits but most of it was just heresy, I'd be interested in reading them myself, but no real legitimate backing, that is why they were disregarded
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fireworks_god
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Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Blending religions & philosophies [Re: capliberty]
#5909722 - 07/28/06 06:15 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
capliberty said:
Being 200 yrs removed from the actual accounts of Christ isn't very long, I know for a fact that George Washington was the president of the United States, no one doubts this, and he's 200 years removed from the present day,
The times in which "Jesus Christ" existed are said to be around 2,000 years previous to this one. That's ten times as far back as George Washington. Not to mention that the circumstances pertaining to the recording of history are incredibly different. 
Quote:
But even the overwhelming amount of literature that was produced, false or true, that came in the next few centuries after Jesus's death, kinda shows that there was a Jesus, and he definitely had some powerful views,
There is an overwhelming amount of literature that was produced concerning Luke Skywalker, but the fact that there is offers no validity to the actual existance of one Luke Skywalker.
Tell me, what is the difference between Jesus Christ and Odin? More literature? Or the fact that it is the myth of the culture that dominates others that is valid?
Quote:
but the Church back then knew to a certain degree what was actually true accounts of his story and what was heresy, The gospels and the letters of Paul were truest and most authentic accounts out all of the gospels, and there were plenty of this extra gospels circulating around, some may have some true tid bits but most of it was just heresy, I'd be interested in reading them myself, but no real legitimate backing, that is why they were disregarded
I'm most curious as to exactly what position you hold in being able to know what you profess. Can you cite any sources, specifically pertaining to who and what "the Church" was. I'm incredibly interested in knowing what you base your conclusions upon, my friend. Are you just expressing your feeling, or is it divine inspiration that allows you to know what happened?
   
Peace. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Blending religions & philosophies [Re: capliberty]
#5909751 - 07/28/06 06:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
capliberty said:
Being 200 yrs removed from the actual accounts of Christ isn't very long, I know for a fact that George Washington was the president of the United States, no one doubts this, and he's 200 years removed from the present day
F_G said most of what I was going to say, but I just had to laugh at what an amazingly stupid analogy this is. George Washington wrote letters, posed for portraits, and delivered speeches that were written down DURING HIS LIFETIME. Try studying someone who lived 200 years ago who had no birth records, never wrote anything, and never had anyone else write anything about him until some 40 years after his death. See how accurate and reliable that information is.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Blending religions & philosophies [Re: capliberty]
#5910114 - 07/28/06 09:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I would like to believe that Y'shua was a historical personage, but as I said, there is almost nothing about him: a passing reference from Josephus the historian, Tacitus and Sueternius. Meanwhile Philo of Alexandria (you would think) would've heard something about the miracle worker from Galilee.
You're wrong about the four Gospels being automatically admitted to the canon. John's Gospel almost didn't make it in as being 'too Gnostic,' and his Revelations was one of many apocaltptic stories that could have been admitted. You can't see the forest for the trees as your perspective seems totally steeped in the orthodox by-line. SEveral of Paul's letters were clearly NOT written by the same person, it is that simple, unless he had a Dissociative Disorder (formerly MPD).
The Nag Hammadi books have only recently been subjected to analysis and you'll forgive me if YOUR dismissal of alternative streams of Christian theology is taken by me as irrelevant. You are too trusting of "the Church back then" and your naivete in the matter is startling. Apparently you have no idea to what extent Christian myths were appropriated by the imperialistic Roman Empire and made a martial force in the world. I recommend that you rediscover Christ in the depths and height of your own being, not in the severely tainted doctrines of church history which are long overdue for radical revision.
With that said, let us restructure Trinitarian thought to include +++ The Father +++ The Son +++ The Holy Mother +++ This is the beginning I have in mind to put the pathologically misogynistic and patriarchal miscreants in their rightful place, elevate womankind to their rightful place as equals, and recognize that God is as much Feminine as Masculine...or neither! This ought ethically to be orthodoxy, not heresy. I am aware of a theologian like Sergei Bulgakov who has tried to recognize Sophia [Wisdom] as an aspect of Deity, while also being threatened with the charge of heresy, but I know several intelligent spiritual homosexual men who are definately NOT female haters - unlike the so-called 'Church Fathers.'
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Even as a firm naturalist, I can understand the use of symbolism, allegories, myths, etc to describe (universal?) human experiences. Personally, resurrection is one of my favorites, and consequentially I walk around with an Eye of Horus dangling around my neck.
Having read the New Testament, I don't see why Jesus is a superior resurrection figure than Horus. Plus, Jesus is loaded down with ressentimental morality that I do not approve of and far too much emphasis is put on other (imaginary) realities instead of this one. But, that is my Nietzchesque bias. 
Edited by MushmanTheManic (07/28/06 09:37 PM)
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capliberty
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Registered: 04/23/06
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Quote:
The times in which "Jesus Christ" existed are said to be around 2,000 years previous to this one. That's ten times as far back as George Washington. Not to mention that the circumstances pertaining to the recording of history are incredibly different.
Yeah I'm not talking about us as the present, I know that we're 2000 years removed, what I'm refering as 200 years is when Christ was reported as being crusified and the time in which the four gospels and the letters of Paul were reported to the orthodox church,
Edited by capliberty (07/29/06 08:31 AM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Blending religions & philosophies [Re: capliberty]
#5911591 - 07/29/06 10:25 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Paul never thought that his letters to new churches were going to be regarded as holy writ, and the Gospel narratives came considerably later. Paul wrote just a few years after Jesus was executed. The rationale for selecting four gospels instead of 5 or 6? There are four directions and four winds so there should be four gospels. That was the 'reason' if you can call that a reason. Gospels like Thomas essentially undercut the need for a priesthood and the reliance upon the sacraments for salvation, so that HAD to be excluded AND destroyed! Can't have the multitudes going about Self-Realizing God in The Way that Jesus taught! When Jesus [allegedly] said "Do this in memory of me," with regard to breaking bread, He did not say anything to the effect that 'your salvation depends upon this act.' The priesthood developed that bit of mind-control and millions of people lived in anguish and fear of Hell when they were banned or excommunicated from the Roman Church, believing that 'outside the Church, there is no salvation.'
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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