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OfflineVulture
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Murder, killing, death penalty, religion, ect.
    #1598447 - 06/01/03 04:51 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

well i was feeling like a philosopher the other day and jsut started writing about the difference between murder and killing and the ideas jsut kept flowing so i just flowed with them. it was also written on another forum at first but i thought you guys might find it a good read :smile:






There is a difference between murder and killing

At least to me anyways


If you kill someone for no reason or out of anger, ect. then that is murder.

but if you kill someone in self defense, defending someone else, or someone like sadaam Hussein, then that to me is killing.


on a side note, im kinda on the fence when it comes to the death penalty. is it murder, or killing?


it would seem more justified as killing to me if you caught him in the act or something like that and was killed right afterwards. but if you get the DP then you sit on death row for a long time. people change, but then again people pretend to change to get out of shit.
in my point of view no one can really help the way they are....its all socialization and the way you were born. I think a lot of people like that belong in a mental institution more than a prison. or maybe they can make a prison for mentally unstable people....kind of like a mental institution inside a prison.

also, what is the object of the death penalty besides saving a little money from keeping the person there? is it to make the person realize what they have done and feel shitty for it and then kill them in the end therefore defeating the whole purpose of making them feel shitty?

I can understand when they put people to death before by more inhumane ways because most killing are inhumane. I think if there was a death penalty then the person should be killed in the exact same manor as he killed someone. Think about it.....we all know were going to die, we don?t know how and that leaves a kind of hope of some kind that we wouldent die a horrible death. With he death penalty they do lethal injection now. So its pretty much a painless death.

still with me?

heh  ok, so if your on death row you really have less to worry about. You still know your going to die, but you know exactly when and exactly how. If you know that its lethal injection then you know its really now going to be that bad. Im sure that by when the time comes you would be pretty comfortable and prepared for death. You probably wouldn?t look at it as in death because its not going to hurt, it would be more like a trip to the afterlife (if there is one).

so is there really a point in killing the person.....your not really tormenting the person as you would be if you were going to kill them in a violent way because they would know it wasn?t going to be a horrible death.

say....if you were going to burn someone at the stake then don?t you think that would cause the person more anguish?

I don?t know...I wouldn?t really agree with killing people in a inhumane way. But if your going to give them a lethal injection then it defeats the whole purpose of what most people think the object of the death penalty is. It just seems like a way to save money to me.


yes im still typing :smile:

so think about it another way. The object of laws is to keep the peace. The object of the punishment is to keep people from breaking those laws, because before you break the law you would think about the consequences and then decide if you want to take the risk.
so if the object of the death penalty wasn?t to make the person suffer just because they did it to someone else (which its obviously not as I explained above) Then the object of the punishment would be to keep people from doing something to get the death penalty.


ok so that makes since and I would agree with that with other laws. But if you think about it, when someone does something bad enough to be put on death row then wouldn?t it make since that the whole "if I get caught blah blah blah might happen" thing probably doesn?t go through there head.

if you didn?t get that think of it like this.
when someone kills someone then there not going to be thinking "hmmm I don?t want to get the death penalty so im not going to do this" as one would before they do something like steal or something.(unless premeditated, but even then I don?t think the mere fact that we have a death penalty is not going to make them do it) I don?t think by taking away the death penalty its going to make people say "ohh lets see if I get caught im not going to get the DP, I would only spend the rest of my life in jail so fuck it" So if this is true then having the death penalty does not lower the murder rate, as making the penalty higher for drugs or stealing would make those rates go down.

got it?

so the people that are going to kill people are going to kill the regardless of if we have the death penalty or not. So therefore the death penalty is really pointless. And in some cases probably doing them a favor.

therefore in my eyes the death penalty has no point but to save money. I probably think this way because im very open minded when it comes to religion and such so im not real religious....more agnostic I would say. (who?s to say what religion is right and what one wrong, no one really KNOWS)

So why is the death penalty still around? and why would people still think there achieving the same goal by lethal injection? Well, most of it probably stems from people not really thinking about it too much (I doubt a lot of everyday US citizens have bothered to overanalyze this subject such as I have) and the other reason would be religion. It seems as a majority of the population is not really open minded about religion and pretty much just believe what they have been brought up around. And most religions have pretty much the same concept when it comes to the afterlife. (heaven/hell/ect.)
So the reason we still have the death penalty is because most people either don?t care or think about it too much, or, because (correct me if im wrong) a majority people in the US are Christian, or have the same kind of idea about the afterlife. Therefore (in there minds) justifying the death penalty.

(ie: most people would think that the person being put to death would go to hell when they die)

this brings up another argument.

if you try to put yourself in there mindset (religiously speaking) then they would die and be in hell for ETERNITY. I don?t think most of them think about Eternity too much and if they do it would prolly be something like "well if they killed someone then they deserve to go to hell"

whew sill going :smile:

but think about that one too. hell would be eternal. ETERNAL! the human mind cannot even fathom eternity......its just never ending. And hell is supposed to be the absolute worst and most horrifying thing ever and all that jazz.....for ETERNITY! Now I don?t know about you but although killing someone may be bad....nothing can justify being in hell for ETERNITY. I wouldn?t wish that upon anyone unless they were truly an evil soul who?s purpose was to torment people, and just be evil.

so what if god saw it the same way? a lot of Christians say you would either go to heaven or hell.....so would they go to heaven? that?s complete bliss for eternity. well I don?t think they deserve that either, that would be doing them a favor. So this in itself says to me that there is more than just heaven or hell after death.


ok so say that just for sake of an argument the Christians are right. Christianity says that in the afterlife there is heaven and there is hell. Nothing else just either one. And Christianity also says that god is fair and just. (there?s already a problem). Christianity also says that if you are not a Christian then you are going to hell. And to be a Christian means the you accept Jesus into your heart and blah blah blah and dedicate your life to the lord basically.

so wtf, Christianity has just disproven itself. Another example: (again assuming the Christians are right) so judgment day comes and god is doing his thing. Its Mr. Christian's turn. God evaluates and sees that he is a Christian and has lived his life for the lord and all that jazz, so he goes to heaven. Then here come Mr. Agnostic (or anything else for that matter) kits say this man has done the best he can and has done the things that he thought was right and treated people like he would want to be treated all his life and is not a bad person at all. According to Christianity he would go to hell regardless of what he was like just because he wasn?t so sure about the whole religion thing. And then Mr. Evil Guy is evaluated and goes to hell because he evil and blah blah blah.

I don?t know about you but that doesn?t seem very fair and just. The poor agnostic guy has been banished to the worst place ever for eternity. He never did anything to deserve this. He lived a great life and yet he has to be in hell with people such as Hitler and Hussein?

to me this disproves many religions, such as the Baptist (which I was raised as and my WHOLE family is and is obsessed) and many other close minded religions. I don?t know if you would counts catholic as Christian (I do) because being raised southern Baptist I was always taught they were not. And that only the protestant religions were Christians. (I never believed that crap though cause protestant religions would not be here if not for the Catholic religion)

anyway as I understand it (im in no way a guru in religion) Catholics believe in hell/heaven and others such as purgatory. This would make more since to me and would make the religion more believable because that would mean god was actually fair a just and not to the extreme either way.

Im not sure what the Catholics believe as far as other religions and how god would judge those people. But for any religion to be the right one in my mind, it would have to be one that would judge you on your inner self and who your really are and what you did regardless of what religion you believe. I mean its not any ones fault what religion they are really. Most are that because they were raised that way and socialized in that environment making it harder for them to be open minded about it (expect for the oddballs like me where I don?t really believe much of anything I was brought up to believe) I don?t know if people are born to not be such a sheep as most people are or if its a combination of the sociological experiences.

Most people are raised in a certain religion and really truly believe it with all there heart while there young because they don?t know any better and have nothing to compare it to. Some people stay that way because humans don?t like change. Some change there minds when they see what?s out there. I cant speak for those people but I know for me, even though I wasn?t exposed to things other than what I was raised in when I was little, I was always critical about everything especially religion. I tend to overanalyze everything way more than other people so maybe that why. But I have always been not-so-sure about my religion. I?ve always thought that your being way more honest with everyone and yourself by just saying "I don?t know" when it comes to things like that. Because there really is no way to know you really cant and those who say they know are just hiding behind the truth....without even knowing it.

so in conclusion there really is no point is the death penalty because it doesn?t effect the crime rate and no one really knows what happens when we die. So basically we are just killing people to save money(weather we know it or not). Therefore the death penalty is murder.



omg I cant believe ive been typing this whole time! I guess I just got on a roll :smile:









since I doubt a lot of you will even read that here is a quick summery


I explained difference between killing and murder in my mind.

I explained the death penalty and the many views people have on it.

I explained what objectives people think are being fulfilled by the death penalty.

I explained why the only real objective the death penalty fulfills is saving money.

I then backed that up by comparing in more detail what people think and why its still around (because of religion)

in doing this I found and explained many loopholes in certain religions, therefore disproving them. (to myself anyway)

And by combining these things I have come to the conclusion that the death penalty is murder and the only thing we are certain it accomplishes is saving money. And that most people don?t see that because they think they know what happens after death when in reality we are just fucking with something we know nothing about.


--------------------
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Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.


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OfflineSombie
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Re: Murder, killing, death penalty, religion, ect. [Re: Vulture]
    #1598480 - 06/01/03 04:59 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The way I think is...

Why do we try to emulate hell on earth with a prison? When we kill someone, they go to god (or whatever higher power you beleive in) and then he decides what to do with that person.

if that person deserves enternal punishment, then he will get it. If that person deserves enternal bliss then he will get it.

it is not for us to decide, and it is not for us to try to emulate hell on earth. When we kill someone we give them to god to decide.


--------------------
"America... just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable." - Hunter S Thompson

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OfflineSombie
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Re: Murder, killing, death penalty, religion, ect. [Re: Sombie]
    #1598508 - 06/01/03 05:06 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Oh and I read your whole post to btw, I don't feel like arguing over religion and stuff but, in the luthurn religion we beleive that God will judge people justly, so if you never had a chance to accept jesus (i.e. you lived in the jungles of South Africa) then he will judge you according to that. Some of us also beleive that God will stand before you the last instant before you die and give you one last chance to accept him.

A good Agnostic (or anything) person, when seeing God right before his eyes would accept him as the truth, would he not?


--------------------
"America... just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable." - Hunter S Thompson

Check out Agio

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Offlinetoned3f
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Re: Murder, killing, death penalty, religion, ect. [Re: Sombie]
    #1598559 - 06/01/03 05:20 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The justification behind the death penalty is not that the executed will be judged by their creator, but that they will no longer be able to cause harm to others. If the former were the case then a non-secular government couldn't get away with having a death penalty to begin with.


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OfflineVulture
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Re: Murder, killing, death penalty, religion, ect. [Re: toned3f]
    #1598752 - 06/01/03 06:28 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

to me christianity is too vague. they all think they are right but they all interpret the bible in different ways. whos to say whos right? what make the bible more believable than any other religious book? when it comes to religion i think the most honest answer is "i dont know". if you say something other than that then you are not being totally honest. unless of course you have met god (while sober) or whatever is out there. knowone "knows" what is out there. everything is merely speculation and books written by a bunch of guys.  personally i borrow certain aspects of religions and embrace them. I belive the bible is good and it lets people live good lives....but society has really done a number on christianity. I think it has evolved into soemthing that could ultimatly be our downfall. i think it should be part of every religion to be open minded to everything. modern christianity seem to work the opposite....if i try to talk about something like this to my parent i will get the your going to hell talk. I also belive there is more to spirituality than what the bible tell us. After practicing meditation ive experienced some interesting things that i would never have if i wasent open minded about everything. Ive been told by many christians that by meditating im clearing my mind of everything therefore leaving it wide open for satan or some kind of evil spirit to menipulate me or possess me or something. that just seems like a crock of shit too me casue meditation is nothing but good to me. i dont even know if any religion is right. maby noone is right. how the hell are we supposed to know? people have religious experiences with god and stuff.....but whos to say there not merely just a spiritual experience and bacuse of the sociolization that christiaity has put your through, you automatically thing it was a religious truth.

ive had many spiritual experiences.....and i can see how people in certian religions would automatically accociate it with there religion. ive been raised all my life as a babtist....but ive always been skeptical about religion...reality...and spirtuality. since i was 5 i would think about stuff like, what if im the only real person here and this whole world is nothing but a mnifestation of my mind. i dont know anyone else like this. most people when there kids just automatically accept waht there parents or ohter significant people say to them as truth. but for whatever reason i have never been that way. as a person i have never been a victim of sociology like most have. ive always been skeptical about everything if i didnt have PROOF. thats why i am the way i am and that why i believe what i believe and why i say "i dont know" when it comes to the big picture.

but when i die if god stands in front of me then you better beleive im gonna accept him :smile:

also about heaven and hell. why the 2 extremes? god is supposed to be fair and just.....now everyone does not fall into one of the 2 extremes...there has to be more to that.  there has to be some kind of mid range....or levels of heaven and hell. for instance....lets say if you go to court and your got caught with a dime bag of pot and someone else was there that got caught with a kilo of coke. well if we used the heaven and hell as a basis that would mean there are only 2 ways to go...free....or in jail for 20 years.  well you both proke the rules so you both go to jail for 20 years.

looks like you just got shitted on.....there has to be some kind of midrange.


as for the death penalty.  if it was to merely keep them from harming others that would make no sense. whats wrong with keeping them in jail for the rest of there lives. there not gonna hurt anyone....most poeple on death row or in prison for life humble themselves pretty well....there is no need to kill ANYONE for ANYTHING unless they are trying to kill you or another innocent person....in other words killing is only justified if you are prevent the death of an innocent. And you would have to do it during the act. death is inevitable.....you dont know if its good or bad....the guy is eventually gonna die in jail anyway so why spend all the money to kill him? it makes no sense. if they just gave them life(LIFE and in untill they die) in prison without parole it would take care of them not hurting anyone....and you dont have to kill anyone to achieve it.


--------------------
Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.


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Offlinetoned3f
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Re: Murder, killing, death penalty, religion, ect. [Re: Vulture]
    #1598831 - 06/01/03 06:50 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

It's called Dogma. Most religions practice it in one way or another whether consciously or not, though it seems prevalent in Christianity (Not trying to be stereotypical).


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Murder, killing, death penalty, religion, ect. [Re: Vulture]
    #1599498 - 06/01/03 10:46 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Karma


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Offlinethestringphish
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Re: Murder, killing, death penalty, religion, ect. [Re: Vulture]
    #1599803 - 06/02/03 12:02 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

or someone like sadaam Hussein




as much of a horible bastard as he might be, killing him, or anybody, is still wrong. Nobody for any reason ever has the right to take the life of someone else, and intentional killing, even if it is for what someone might deem "a good reason" is always murder, even if it is someone like sadaam hussein. i won't go into what i think SHOULD be done about people who do terrible things like sadaam, or anybody else who kills, because that is an altogether diferent discusion. But i think it would be false to say it is not murder to kill someone who is particularly "evil" or cruel, like sadaam.

that being said, theres some nice thoghts there, thanks for the read.


--------------------
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Anonymous

Re: Murder, killing, death penalty, religion, ect. [Re: thestringphish]
    #1599863 - 06/02/03 12:26 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Well that is certainly one way of looking at it.

I look at it this way. If a murderer or a rapist attacks my wife and I have no other way to stop them I will kill them dead.

YOU may do as you please.


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Offlinetoned3f
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Re: Murder, killing, death penalty, religion, ect. [Re: ]
    #1600863 - 06/02/03 10:29 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Karma and Dogma are completely unrelated, and some killing is justified (Never murder, which is specifically defined, however). If defense of a loved one wasn't good enough reason to end an attacker's life than I don't know what could be.


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Offlinethestringphish
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Re: Murder, killing, death penalty, religion, ect. [Re: toned3f]
    #1606905 - 06/04/03 03:22 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

you must also love the attacker, even if what he does is terrible. I put no ones life above anyone else's, except mabey my own, not that I try to, it's just a natural thing to strive for personal survival I suppose.


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome


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