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OfflineDruginduced
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A thought on religion
    #2181584 - 12/16/03 04:07 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I think if all the religion stories turn out to not be true, and God and Jesus never do come back to earth, then one day religion will become a thing of the past.

Most religions are only going to be relevant for about 1000 more years (or was it 2000?) plus or minus about a thousand years, because we dont know if we have an accurate timescale (at least thats what i see preachers preaching about if it ever becomes the year 4000)

I think its safe to say that in 3000 years religion will be gone from the face of the earth. Unless God comes before then. Kind of like how cavemen used to have to hunt for food or gather berries or whatever the hell they used to do every day. In the year 4000+-500 things will change and there will only be a few groups of people left in the world that still practice religion. They will be compareable to the uncivilized tribes that live in congo and such places today.

But maybe someone will find a new bible that extends relevency of christianity beyond the next thousand or so years. hehe


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Offlinemanna_man
High onlife.....andcrack

Registered: 06/10/03
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Druginduced]
    #2181608 - 12/16/03 04:26 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"I think its safe to say that in 3000 years religion will be gone from the face of the earth. Unless God comes before then. Kind of like how cavemen used to have to hunt for food or gather berries or whatever the hell they used to do every day."

I don't think we ultimately "search" for religion. It finds us, in one form or another.
I'm sure that in a few thousand years, they will have undeniable "proof" for god's (in)existence. But whether we find that proof or not, religion will remain because it never rested on "proof" in the first place.


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This post is protected under copyrite law.All above content is strictly the property of ?manna_man.Any infringement of copyright property is strictly prohibited.Any violators will be stretched, shot, and then vaporized into a state of anti-matter, where they will cease to exist.


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InvisibleJellric
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Registered: 11/08/98
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Druginduced]
    #2181681 - 12/16/03 05:49 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I hope you are right; I really do! But in order for religion to dissapear, something will have to come along to replace it. Religion provides that instant social stamp of approval. Where else can your local serial rapist go to get a backstage pass to wreak havoc?
You really can't beat it with a cross.

In order for it to go bye-bye, something must come along to fill the void that religion fills. And what would that be? I can't forsee anything on the horizon that would come close to the cop-out that religion represents for the average person.

I can agree with you that religion will continue its downward trend in terms of participation. But for the short term, religious affiliation is just too damn convenient of a tool for categorizing strangers. The average person will not make the effort to get to know a person in depth (assuming there is any depth to know) and will accept the first label they can stick on someone to avoid the one thing we all dread: WORK.



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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Offlinezbgeed
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Jellric]
    #2181780 - 12/16/03 07:35 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

time does not exist, it is an illusion. we live in one moment and that moment is eternity. time was created for the purpose of making us forget about the origin of religion.


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Invisiblephobey
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Registered: 03/21/03
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Druginduced]
    #2181847 - 12/16/03 08:53 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Religion is a mass psychosis don't think that will just stop. Now i think it will change in something that will get more and more real when time passes. I think most people here are trying mushrooms etc to find a believe system i know i have. I know there is more to it than we know but i throw away cristianity cauze well it basicly sucks bigtime and is full of bullshit.

But if your'r right gods time is almost up  :grin: thats good news.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Druginduced]
    #2181860 - 12/16/03 09:08 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Think about all of the children who are psychologically damaged from religion. Growing up and constantly worrying that all of your actions will doom you to a lake of fire for eternity.

I will cast down upon thee with great vengence!!!

And there will be gnashing of teeth, a hell so insufferable.


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"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: A thought on religion [Re: Jellric]
    #2182130 - 12/16/03 11:40 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I think religion has one important function for a society, it provides a (fantasy) basis for morality. How do you enforce a basis for morality without some kind of promise of punishment or reward? Since this promise obviously (in my opinion) can't be rooted in reality, how would you achieve this in a 'secular religion'?

Anybody got some ideas on what could replace religion in a secular future?

You could base everything on "it's good for society", but I don't think most people would buy that, or even care.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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Invisiblejpod
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Druginduced]
    #2182196 - 12/16/03 12:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

What is your definition of religion? To me religion is simply a core set of beliefs that guide one in life. I would consider things such as basic morals (respecting the life of other human beings, etc.) to be a form of religion as well, in the case. If this is your definition, it would be hard to say that such a thing could conceivably be gone from all life.

If you define religion as the circumstance and ceremony surrounding a given core set of beliefs then I suppose what you say could be true.

Personally I am a Christian and proud of it. However I let my beliefs be governed by what is taught in my Bible, and not what is popularly taught in most forms of Christianity. I don't go to church and I don't listen to evangelists because I think most of them are simply in the buisiness of exploiting my belief system for personal gain.

By the way, I don't know what preachers teach about a certain date for Jesus to return, and I certainly don't know what kind of translation would make them think any such thing. Most translations say that "no man shall know the day".


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OfflineDruginduced
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: jpod]
    #2182325 - 12/16/03 01:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Well when I was growing up and attending church I was always under the impression that it was supposed to be around 6000-7000 years after adam & eve came to earth that God would return. I don't know exactly where those dates came from.

In my above post and this post, my definition of religion is not just a set of beliefs but also the rituals and such that go along with them.

A possibility of what may replace religion in the future is the discovery of alien beings. Imagine that we discover them, or they discover us. Therefore we shall be constantly at war with them (because thats the way humans seem to work) until one of us is destroyed (assuming that when our technology is compared to theirs, we are close enough to even have a war with them). If the government could cause enough fear among the masses that the evil aliens were going to obliviate the human race, then I think we could get a lot more people to start thinking like "Is it good for society" etc. (As stated in one of the above posts).


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OfflineFrog
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Druginduced]
    #2182459 - 12/16/03 02:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I agree with jpod.

re?li?gion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religion


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Frog]
    #2182683 - 12/16/03 03:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

i think alot of you guys have some overly radical views on the nature of religion. First of all you cant define religion as christianity. In the time scale of human belief christianity is an insignificant blip, one of hundreds of cults that offshoot from predescessor religions. And christianity has been around for thousands of years. Saying that religion wont die because pedophiles need it to=wreak havoc is ridiculous.

Religion is the belief, in some form that there is more to the world than the mundane and the physical. THat belief is inherent in all peope. Christianity, zen, taoism, hindu etc are just faces on the same coin. To say that people are going to get tired of waiting for god to come doesnt cut it either. Most religions believe there gods are already here, the resurected messiah is just one myth image among millions.

Also, the timeline you mentioned is far from universal. ive never heard it before. nevertheless people have been predicting the date of the appocolypse or the revelation since st john wrote revelations thousands of years ago. everytime the date comes and goes a rational is constructed so that the belief system can continue.

Maybe the main thing is how you view rteligion. If you view it as a structured, dogmatic system of knowledge like many aspects of catholisicm , hebrew etc than you might be right. but religion in the sense of the human drive for spiritual contact with the world wont die away, it will keep evolving, perhaps to its ultimate transcendental goal, perhaps not.

And finally: the whole thing about contact with aliens is alien is nothing but another myth symbol, if you wait for the answer or resolution to life to come down from outerspace, youll be waiting along time. The ufo myth is just a new-religion, and expecting alien contact is no diffrent than 'waiting for god to come to earth'


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OfflineDruginduced
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2183564 - 12/16/03 08:25 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Pharmakos you bring up a lot of good points. Here is what I think:

Quote:

PHARMAKOS said:
First of all you cant define religion as christianity. In the time scale of human belief christianity is an insignificant blip,




I think christianity is more than just an insignificant blip. We don't have much DETAIL of what people belived too much earlier than Mesopotamia and such. And the civilization of Mesopotamia dates back to around 3500BC. Thats about 5500 years ago. Christianity has been around for a couple thousand years, lets say 2000. 2000/5500 = 36%. 36% of detailed history has included christianity.


Quote:

PHARMAKOS said:To say that people are going to get tired of waiting for god to come doesnt cut it either. Most religions believe there gods are already here, the resurected messiah is just one myth image among millions.




I was mainly considering christianity as "religion" in my first post. And I didn't mean to imply that people would ever get tired of waiting for God. I meant that soemwhere down the road of time (maybe even 10,000 years from now) people may look back on christianity and think, "wasnt Jesus supposed to come back here by now?" And eventually christianity would just phase out as a possibility of accepted religions.

Quote:

PHARMAKOS said:
Also, the timeline you mentioned is far from universal. ive never heard it before. nevertheless people have been predicting the date of the appocolypse or the revelation since st john wrote revelations thousands of years ago. everytime the date comes and goes a rational is constructed so that the belief system can continue.




I was mainly considering Mormonism when I put that timeline down. I believe that Mormonism is the most correct and uncontradictional form of christianity that is available today. (this is according to what they teach, not according to the story of Joseph Smith, etc.) I have heard many high ranking Mormons who are well educated in religion state rumors ranging from -My generation's grandchildren will be around when the second coming happens- (im 20 btw), to -It will happen within the next 2000 years-.

Quote:

PHARMAKOS said:
And finally: the whole thing about contact with aliens is alien is nothing but another myth symbol, if you wait for the answer or resolution to life to come down from outerspace, youll be waiting along time. The ufo myth is just a new-religion, and expecting alien contact is no diffrent than 'waiting for god to come to earth'




I do not expect aliens to ever contact humans. Although I believe aliens most likely do exist (either as the form of a single celled organism, or some other state much more advanced than humans, or as some form of spiritual being, or anywhere inbetween.) Mainly I said that as a possiblity for muhurgle's question:

Quote:

muhurgle said:
Anybody got some ideas on what could replace religion in a secular future?





And I wasn't very serious either.


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InvisibleNariusFractal
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Frog]
    #2183593 - 12/16/03 08:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

More info:

Religion
Base word in Latin Religio - to bind or fasten

Religion binds and fastens you to "A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion."


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You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Druginduced]
    #2183642 - 12/16/03 08:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Religion is on the outs in the West because we all subscribe to the new religion of logic. Because we believe so strongly in logic we become trapped into a predictable and materialistic existance. Our culture has lost the mysticism that gives life to it and ties us to the deeper truths of existance. We got so hung up on conceptually and rationaly understanding the world that we got disconnected from reality.
That is what drugs are for: to remind us of truths that exist outside of our own conceptual understanding.

Even in physics and cosmology human knowledge has its limits. For example scientists theorize that before the Big Bang the laws of physics as we know them couldn't have existed! They are know discovering that the Universe is filled with matter that can't be seen or detected, and is expanding by some force that also cannot be explained.

What we won't admit is that logic can only take you so far, and that experience is the key. I think once we are all worn out with the nihilism of scientific thinking we will return to mysticism and spirituality because they show us deeper truths that we experience with our whole consciousness and not just our abstract thinking.

In this regard I think religion is a good thing. It may not be logical, or true in a physical sense as far as we can measure, but those values are only a product of our culture. What matters is experiencing the truth, and that is where mysticism succeeds and human science fails.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2183780 - 12/16/03 10:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

mysticism succeeds and human science fails

Fails how? How can you be sure that the truths offered by religion or spirituality are any deeper than those offered by logic and science?

That science can't (yet) explain everything we observe, isn't a failure of science.

In my opinion, it's the other way round. We need to believe in some lie to justify the rules of our culture. Why is killing for personal gain bad? No salvation or bad karma? These are just our ways of explaining the basic fact that a society which choose this rule will be more successful than one which does not.

Edit: not just explaining them, but giving people an incentive to follow otherwise seemingly aribtrary rules (killing might be very obvious, but others, like monogamy, are more subtle)


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


Edited by muhurgle (12/16/03 10:04 PM)


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: muhurgle]
    #2184290 - 12/17/03 01:40 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I think that "believing" in a myth and believing in a scientific truth are no different because you are only believing in these things. Knowing them on a deeper level through experience is different altogether. One believes in ideas, but experiences reality. The idea that God exists and the idea that God does not exist are both simple constructions of the human mind, and neither bare much weight in the realm of absolutes which is not quantifiable or describable by langauge or abstract thought.

Religion can provide experiences that defy belief or constructed reality. Logic cannot, because by definition experience itself is outside of logic. Mysticism is an experience, science is an explanation. Regardless of which is logicaly correct experience is more essential than thought or logic itself.

BTW: with regards to science, there is definate possibility that there are some things that simply cannot be understood by science. Not because they are too complex for our methods, but because they do not operate in the logical framework of science as we have created. Science is man made. Without a person to be scientific or rational there is no science or rationality. It is a way of attempting to understand the Universe, but there are some profound things that by definition are not understandable (like the origin of consciousness for example). Spirituality shows us these things, science does not.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


Edited by Divided_Sky (12/17/03 01:50 AM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Druginduced]
    #2184304 - 12/17/03 01:48 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

RydawgSupreme said:
I was mainly considering Mormonism when I put that timeline down. I believe that Mormonism is the most correct and uncontradictional form of christianity that is available today....... I do not expect aliens to ever contact humans. 




Isn't the beliefs of Mormonism based on a recently written book claimed to be handed down from supernatural beings, or something? Jesus floating around in Utah?

Nowadays we lock people up to claim to have seen Jesus like that, especially when they were cast out from society. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlineeve69
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Druginduced]
    #2186619 - 12/17/03 11:57 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

RydawgSupreme said:
I think if all the religion stories turn out to not be true, and God and Jesus never do come back to earth, then one day religion will become a thing of the past.




For good or evil I hope the powers that created us decide we're ok and let us just be. I would hate to have the experiment wiped.


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...or something







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Anonymous

Re: A thought on religion [Re: Druginduced]
    #2186651 - 12/18/03 12:12 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

after you have one of these, you understand everything :laugh:
www.near-death.com www.iands.org its like each religion isnt right or wrong, they each have their own truths and fuck ups in them, to choose 1 religion and try and follow it is just foolish, but whatever keeps you close to him :wink:


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Druginduced]
    #2186770 - 12/18/03 01:43 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Tonight Bill Maher said "God doesn't need an agent." on Larry King Live.





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--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month:  The Bees - Voices Green And Purple



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Offlineceephax
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Learyfan]
    #2186914 - 12/18/03 03:13 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

As long as the notion of whether a greatest concieveable being exists or not, which at the present moment is beyond our theoretical control, then people will still share beliefs analogous to that of a religion.
We interpret our values, which are created from desires, to fit that of a said religion.

Christianity will eventually diminish, like all organized religion in the past; but that notion of God or the Absolute will always continue.

If there is a claim to something within the universe, then there is an obligation to that claim; meaning that there must be a sentient being present to make those claims.


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What am I saying? I'm not even Chinese!


Edited by ceephax (12/18/03 03:21 AM)


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Offlineceephax
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: ceephax]
    #2186924 - 12/18/03 03:18 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Religion itself is not bad, it encourages people to be compassionate towards one another and all that good stuff. When people interpret it to gain power over another person is when it becomes "bad" for individual freedom.

Bad is entirely relative, blah blah blah i'm rambling


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What am I saying? I'm not even Chinese!


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2187553 - 12/18/03 12:04 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

mormonism (church of jesus christ of the latter day saints)...
founded by joseph smith in new york, in early 1800s...
the story:
seeking some sort of christian "truth" in the face of so many denominations...
had conversations with angel moroni, who showed him a hill where secret records were buried...
the angel unsealed portion of book (filled with heiroglyphic writings; angel gave smith special glasses that allowed him to decipher ancient egyptian picture-writing (the rosetta stone had not yet been decoded, so nobody could understand all this egyptian stuff that was suddenly very popular due to napoleon's troops looting egypt...)
smith would take book & magic glasses & go intop closet & read/translate from the book & his circle of fellow seekers would write down his words...
scriptures (now the book of mormon, etc.) told about lost tribes of israel in north america & many adventures & i think maybe son o' god (jesus) makes a special guest appearence... (i haven't read my copy of the book of mormon from cover to cover, mmmkay?)
revelations from these scriptures instructed young joseph smith to reinstitute certain old testament lifestyles choices, such as polygamy & special priesthoods (aaron & melchizidek???), etc...
this made him & his group sorta unpopular with the neighbors...
he & followers moved to ohio (first temple is in kirtland), illinois (smith was lynched there while incarcerated), missouri, then the trek to utah...
when utah territory wanted to become a state, the feds sorta objects to the many wives setup; so the upper echelon of LDS leaders in utah were contacted by a messenger angel, who told them it was OK to repeal the polygamy part of mormon beliefs...
~
there's plenty more, but that's a bare-bones sketch, mmmmkay?
~
i
m sure there's LDS scripture online, as well as LDS & LDS-reform info, & pro- & anti- sites as well...
yaddayadda///gnrmi


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: gnrm23]
    #2187752 - 12/18/03 01:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Hehe, thanks man. Moroni sounds like quite the angel...

All I am saying is that I could come up with a better Bible and make it more believable and more enertaining... :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineZahid
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Learyfan]
    #2188661 - 12/18/03 09:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Tonight Bill Maher said "God doesn't need an agent." on Larry King Live.





I saw that show - Bill Maher is a very intelligent individual. I was amused by the one caller who asked Bill if he would ever enter politics, the caller being completely oblivious to Maher's cancelled show.

As for the whole religion thing [directed at entire thread, not LF], the majority of 'believers' are generally of average-thinking capacity, which turns into somber literalism of any writ out of ignorance of it. Religious fundamentalism does not mix well with policy. Prayer in school, etc. (the general presence of religion) was/is harmless and it's eventually fading away at that. Alot of people who don't hesitate to bash a life of faith (like Bill Maher) seem to entwine Religion and God together which is exactly what religious fundamentalists do - the only difference is the intentions (beliefs, etc) of each individual.


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Edited by Zahid (12/18/03 09:36 PM)


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OfflinePed
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Druginduced]
    #2192669 - 12/20/03 12:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Personally, I believe that the phenomenon of a hope-based religion, meaning a religion which sustains itself entirely on the anticipation of reunification with a Big-Boss God figure, has been an example of the collective human spiritual laziness.

Rapidly in this world, we are beginning to recognize that we must put effort into spirituality if it is to have any result. The reaction to this recognition is manifesting in a number of ways. In our childishness, there has been the phenomenon of faithlessness: the conclusion that absolutely nothing outside of a science text book exists. There has also been the gradual accumulation of faith in ourselves, faith that we have the potential to become realized beings.

In this way, we are taking our eyes away from religions based upon doctrine, and placing our focus on philosophies which can be tested and evaluated with critical certainty.

A religious system is not required to fulfill the wishes of a more philosophical focus, but there are a few religious systems remaining which skillfully package the spiritual life, making the journey toward realization easily navigated.


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OfflineTHATS iT!
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Ped]
    #2193669 - 12/20/03 11:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Religion is a hope for a proof that our lives are not pointless. Since our exsistence causes change in chaos then our live have a meaning each moment we are still here, even if we die we still cause change. As for a God, I believe there is a higher being who is omnipotent, possibly the creator of all. Even if our reality was created by the collision of parallel deminsion, there still must be an origin. I believe eventually you will find a deminsion of unity where the creator exists.


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Re: A thought on religion [Re: THATS iT!]
    #2193803 - 12/21/03 08:42 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

THATS iT! said:
...Since our exsistence causes change in chaos then our live have a meaning each moment we are still here....




Exactly. Whether or not we fit into some grand scheme, what matters is that we are here, every second creating meaning. Every second. If you can recognize objects, if you are capable of receiving inputs from your senses and can identify them as this or this, then you are creating meaning. As long as their is a spark of life, then there IS purpose.

While there might not be any objective way of "knowing" whether or not we even exist, or if there is any major purpose, does it matter? Its nice to remind ourselves of the infiniteness of the universe, it really puts things into perspective.

But it all comes back to the fact that we are breathing. For whatever reason, even if there isn't one, we are here. We have a life to live. We are obviously playing a part in the Universe.... obviously it isn't a big one, and the only problem we have with this is our ego demanding that everything revovles around us. Its about the parts to the whole...

I think that the best thing about not having an implied meaning except to be here in the first place is that we are free to make our own. I find it funny how so many people have their strong independant identity, as a result of the ego, but yet always demand some sort of objective purpose and meaning, or something...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: THATS iT!]
    #2193885 - 12/21/03 03:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

thats it: Religion is a hope for a proof that our lives are not pointless

---mmmm, how do you figure? seems more like a bandaid on the blackhole that seeks to consume us all.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Positronius]
    #2194942 - 12/22/03 03:20 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

they sound like the same thing to me.


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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2194948 - 12/22/03 03:23 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mixomatosis said:
they sound like the same thing to me.




You two sound like the same thing to me.  :shocked:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2194950 - 12/22/03 03:24 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

thats because we both grew from the same stem cell in an underground laboratory.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Positronius]
    #2194954 - 12/22/03 03:28 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Positronius said:
thats because we both grew from the same stem cell in an underground laboratory.




Ahh ja, that CIA experiment with Bob Dole as the happy donor.... I see it all now.  :grin:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Zahid]
    #2195948 - 12/22/03 05:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, if I remember correctly, Maher made sure to make it clear that he is a spiritual person, not a religious person.

World of difference.




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--------------------------------


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Druginduced]
    #2196035 - 12/22/03 06:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It is my suggestion that you take 10-15 years of personal growth and study (at your leisure of course) from wherever you're presently at in order to understand what religion is and what it's real implications are. What I hear from your words, as well as many on this thread, is simply a lack of life-experience plus a very literal and concrete understanding of things. GOD doesn't "come" or 'go'; and the Ascension of Jesus as a human body lifting off from planet Earth is a 1st century imagination belonging to minds which held to a flat Earth and a domed heavens, with the Light of Heaven pouring though 'holes' called stars. GOD was just as anthropomorphized by simpletons two millenia ago as [S]He is today - sitting on a throne with the carpenter's Son on the right, and a Dove on the left. Thinkers yesterday and today hold more profound notions of spiritual realty.

The language of religion in general is the language of 'mythos,' and mythos or myth does NOT mean falsehood or a pre-scientific understanding of reality. Myths are the universal meanings of life, illustrated by colorful stories in which the players are all 'archetypal' in nature. Different cultures dress their myths differently, but the universal truths still come through for those who have developed the ability to find the universals in the particulars. This ability, BTW, is what characterizes the mind of 'Homo Religiosus' - the Religious Man. When the archetype of 'mother and child,' for example (given the Christmas season, and the celebration of this archetype) is seen in Isis suckling Horus in ancient Egyptian myth, Demeter and Persephone in Greece, or Miriam and Y'shua [Mary and Jesus] in Judea, one can distill ot universal meaning in these widely different times and places. That 'distillation' of universal meaning, of an archetype, is a Transcendental Reality - a Reality that is of the Realm of Pure Ideas (in Platonic terms), or a Holy Mystery in religious language.

There is much to be learned about what religion really is, from those who really know what religion really is, before one discards religion as falsehood. What really DOES need to be discarded is the ridiculous, shallow, doctrinaire, literal-historical images that have falsely been communicated about GOD and GOD's Way-of-Being for humankind. Chances are your parents don't know, neither do your simplistic clergymen and well-intentioned Sunday school teachers. If you are ever to adopt the ancient oracular dictate: "Know Thyself" you will be compelled to know who and what a [human] being is, and Who and What the Divine Ground of Being is that we take our moment-to-moment existence from. Bottom line: if you want to Know yourself, you will have to Know GOD. Alternatively, there will be the life of essential alienation, existential dread of dissolution, depression, and a host of limited identities with ones biology, culture, nationality, sexuality or some other partial aspect of the whole. Human beings without religion are not fully human. True religion is an ornate frame around Transcendent Truth.

Light, Truth and Peace for one and all.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Ped]
    #2196074 - 12/22/03 06:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

GATE` GATE` PARAGATE' PARASAMGATE` BODHI SVAHA.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2196112 - 12/22/03 06:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Would that also be referred to as Gnosticism Markos? When i realized what this was a year ago... i was like hmmmm... I understand a little bit more clearly now... It probably wasnt till i read your posts that i was able to re think how i thought religion... For a long time i thought i was athiest... well a year... Then i just became nothing... Then... I am here, realizing im just looking for the truth, maybe like a lot of people here.

I took a mythology course this past semester, and i had never realized how much those stories, 'myths', were just carried over from previous generations. I think the dividing line here is, is the actual "religous" aka devotion to the seeking of truth, and dogma, which is most of the modern religion.

People havent decided to step out and think for themselves, why exactly is beyond me, but there are plenty of examples to find a general understanding.

There is the "status Quo" for religion, which i see in what most of the masses take towards christianity, hinduism, buddhism, whatever, you name it. Most people are not interested in searching for the truth, but they are only searching for being content and told what it is is the truth. Consequently you have wars of people fighting for what each one of them says as the truth. BUt if i were to say anyhting about the people who probably were the base of such religions, these people are going about it completely the wrong way.


--------------------
What?


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OfflineZahid
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2196164 - 12/22/03 06:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If you are ever to adopt the ancient oracular dictate: "Know Thyself" you will be compelled to know who and what a [human] being is, and Who and What the Divine Ground of Being is that we take our moment-to-moment existence from. Bottom line: if you want to Know yourself, you will have to Know GOD.




Good post Markos.  :thumbup:

"Those who knoweth Allah, know themselves" -Hazrat Muhammad saw

I have always looked as consciousness as something that can transform into Love and Compassion. God is the source of individual awareness. I think of it as the water cycle, we are rain drops, and ultimately we return to where we came from - which is also what we're made of. It's like God is the Eternal Sea (Biblical term?) and we are like water balloons floating around in the body of spirit/consciousness.. For the balloon to deny that the Ocean exists is to deny that the water inside the balloon does not exist.. the water in the balloon is consciousness, and that awareness will melt into the spirit of God when the body dies - when the balloon breaks and the water inside becomes lost in the sea. Heh.. there's got to be like a million metaphors for metaphysics..anywho.. point be taken, to know thyself is to know that our subjective existence is made out of God-stuff - hence the naive Sufi Hussein Mansoor al-Hallaj's "I am the Truth"  :wink:

Salaam,

zahid


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OfflineZahid
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2196177 - 12/22/03 07:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

There's gnosticism in most religions, even the highly political faith of Islam - known as Ma'rifat/al-Arif'at in Islamic Sufism. It's the realization that human spirit and Holy Spirit are One and the Same. It's to see the dream through the Dreamer's eyes. It's also trippy.  :mushroom2:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Zahid]
    #2196227 - 12/22/03 07:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

May al-Hallaj dwell in GOD's peace. He ought not have put his experience that way. Alas. Cut off his hands and feet and crucified him like his beloved Jesus, whose words he seemed to emanate.

Well...I hope you're back on YOUR feet, so-to-speak, since our PM's. Salaam.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2196273 - 12/22/03 07:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The politics of tripping, where the term 'tripping' is used synonymously with 'being,' intense 'being,' is the politics of 'live and let live.' I never once in hundreds of acid trips, and later mushroom trips, ever want to force anyone, control anyone, oppress anyone. I DID want to share my insights, and even more did I want others to see for themselves what I was experiencing, but most people wanted (vehemently) to remain in 'the Matrix' (to use the latest illustration). I sought to become a Light: I became celibate, I stopped eating animals, fish, I ignored current fashion and continued to wear long hair and a beard, and non-fashionable clothing. It was my statement - my disregard for my own desires because the Truth was more important - the Truth transcended my desires, my egocentric needs. Very few asked me what I was into. Very few cared. I was just crazy or eccentric or had taken too many drugs and just wasn't 'with it.'

Well, I WAS 'with it,' 'it' being a much deeper level of identity as a human being - living in the nucleus, not the shell. I have given expression to that spiritual stance in many ways. My home is replete with many artistic representations of The Experience. Mythological, magical, religious and psychedelic art invite all visitors to question, to wonder what all these sculptures, wall hangings and paintings mean that call to them from every room. The house has a many shelved books. Very, very few people care, let alone seek...let alone find...let alone BE.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Zahid]
    #2197059 - 12/23/03 02:53 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I do not deny the gnosticism of any faith, but i deny the ends at which people claim to make in support of their religion. I do not find wars, and peoples deaths to be a good thing when seen as a marker for the death of others, no matter what the religion. There are the fanatics in any space, I just try to look for the truth, no bullshit, just humanity, wherever i can find it.


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What?


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Re: A thought on religion [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2197100 - 12/23/03 03:55 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Hey man, I'd definitely love to see your house sometime, examine the statues and peruse the books, finding some new information... :grin:

I like the idea of seeking to be a "Light", I was thinking something along those lines last night while watching Return of the King.. Aragon and Gandalf are quite the characters. :thumbup:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2198462 - 12/23/03 08:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Well then...I should like to see the land of the midnight sun as well. Thanks for your interest! BTW, we just got in from seeing The Return of the King. Awesome film! Tolkien rules! I'd like to hang a copy of Gandalf's sword over the Green Man, over the fireplace. Peace.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2199030 - 12/24/03 03:29 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Well then...I should like to see the land of the midnight sun as well. Thanks for your interest! BTW, we just got in from seeing The Return of the King. Awesome film! Tolkien rules! I'd like to hang a copy of Gandalf's sword over the Green Man, over the fireplace. Peace.




Myself, I would love to have Aragon's sword. I guess there are some replicas that are perfectly sharp and balanced, for a few hundred or something.... I need to get one. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: ]
    #2199086 - 12/24/03 04:19 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

after you have one of these[NDE], you understand everything

Uh huh. Which is why some of these people believe in reincarnation and some don't. Some believe in Christianity and some don't.

If some Ultimate Truth was revealed instead of some brain trauma filtered through pre-existing beliefs, then all would come back with the exact same information, but not so.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2199377 - 12/24/03 10:19 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

After my divorce, some 11 years ago, I read Gillette's & Moore's books on four major male archetypes: Magician, Lover, Warrior, King, in order to see how unbalanced I was in my life, and to give me insights into my failed marriage. I was stronger in the Magician, Lover archetypes, and deficient in the Warrior (even though I had earned belts in Judo and Jujitsu as a kid) and the King. Fatherhood belongs in a sense, more to King than to Lover, and I'm not a father. So...I still identify more with Gandalf the Magician, than with Aragon the Warrior-King. For me, the selection of sword is based more on the associated symbolism, and the whole Tolkien trip is an archetypal realm.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2199390 - 12/24/03 10:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Sounds sweet, man. I was reading a page today connecting some stuff Jung or somebody about archetypes and LOTR...

I really like how you carefully select things like that, definitely. Sort of reminds me of feng shui in a way. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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