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Offlineceephax
Tapeworm

Registered: 10/08/03
Posts: 106
Loc: Gastrointestinal track
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: A thought on religion [Re: Learyfan]
    #2186914 - 12/18/03 03:13 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

As long as the notion of whether a greatest concieveable being exists or not, which at the present moment is beyond our theoretical control, then people will still share beliefs analogous to that of a religion.
We interpret our values, which are created from desires, to fit that of a said religion.

Christianity will eventually diminish, like all organized religion in the past; but that notion of God or the Absolute will always continue.

If there is a claim to something within the universe, then there is an obligation to that claim; meaning that there must be a sentient being present to make those claims.


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What am I saying? I'm not even Chinese!


Edited by ceephax (12/18/03 03:21 AM)


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Offlineceephax
Tapeworm

Registered: 10/08/03
Posts: 106
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: ceephax]
    #2186924 - 12/18/03 03:18 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Religion itself is not bad, it encourages people to be compassionate towards one another and all that good stuff. When people interpret it to gain power over another person is when it becomes "bad" for individual freedom.

Bad is entirely relative, blah blah blah i'm rambling


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What am I saying? I'm not even Chinese!


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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2187553 - 12/18/03 12:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

mormonism (church of jesus christ of the latter day saints)...
founded by joseph smith in new york, in early 1800s...
the story:
seeking some sort of christian "truth" in the face of so many denominations...
had conversations with angel moroni, who showed him a hill where secret records were buried...
the angel unsealed portion of book (filled with heiroglyphic writings; angel gave smith special glasses that allowed him to decipher ancient egyptian picture-writing (the rosetta stone had not yet been decoded, so nobody could understand all this egyptian stuff that was suddenly very popular due to napoleon's troops looting egypt...)
smith would take book & magic glasses & go intop closet & read/translate from the book & his circle of fellow seekers would write down his words...
scriptures (now the book of mormon, etc.) told about lost tribes of israel in north america & many adventures & i think maybe son o' god (jesus) makes a special guest appearence... (i haven't read my copy of the book of mormon from cover to cover, mmmkay?)
revelations from these scriptures instructed young joseph smith to reinstitute certain old testament lifestyles choices, such as polygamy & special priesthoods (aaron & melchizidek???), etc...
this made him & his group sorta unpopular with the neighbors...
he & followers moved to ohio (first temple is in kirtland), illinois (smith was lynched there while incarcerated), missouri, then the trek to utah...
when utah territory wanted to become a state, the feds sorta objects to the many wives setup; so the upper echelon of LDS leaders in utah were contacted by a messenger angel, who told them it was OK to repeal the polygamy part of mormon beliefs...
~
there's plenty more, but that's a bare-bones sketch, mmmmkay?
~
i
m sure there's LDS scripture online, as well as LDS & LDS-reform info, & pro- & anti- sites as well...
yaddayadda///gnrmi


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: gnrm23]
    #2187752 - 12/18/03 01:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Hehe, thanks man. Moroni sounds like quite the angel...

All I am saying is that I could come up with a better Bible and make it more believable and more enertaining... :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineZahid
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Registered: 01/21/02
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Learyfan]
    #2188661 - 12/18/03 09:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Tonight Bill Maher said "God doesn't need an agent." on Larry King Live.





I saw that show - Bill Maher is a very intelligent individual. I was amused by the one caller who asked Bill if he would ever enter politics, the caller being completely oblivious to Maher's cancelled show.

As for the whole religion thing [directed at entire thread, not LF], the majority of 'believers' are generally of average-thinking capacity, which turns into somber literalism of any writ out of ignorance of it. Religious fundamentalism does not mix well with policy. Prayer in school, etc. (the general presence of religion) was/is harmless and it's eventually fading away at that. Alot of people who don't hesitate to bash a life of faith (like Bill Maher) seem to entwine Religion and God together which is exactly what religious fundamentalists do - the only difference is the intentions (beliefs, etc) of each individual.


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Edited by Zahid (12/18/03 09:36 PM)


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OfflinePed
Interested In Your Brain
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/31/99
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Druginduced]
    #2192669 - 12/20/03 12:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Personally, I believe that the phenomenon of a hope-based religion, meaning a religion which sustains itself entirely on the anticipation of reunification with a Big-Boss God figure, has been an example of the collective human spiritual laziness.

Rapidly in this world, we are beginning to recognize that we must put effort into spirituality if it is to have any result. The reaction to this recognition is manifesting in a number of ways. In our childishness, there has been the phenomenon of faithlessness: the conclusion that absolutely nothing outside of a science text book exists. There has also been the gradual accumulation of faith in ourselves, faith that we have the potential to become realized beings.

In this way, we are taking our eyes away from religions based upon doctrine, and placing our focus on philosophies which can be tested and evaluated with critical certainty.

A religious system is not required to fulfill the wishes of a more philosophical focus, but there are a few religious systems remaining which skillfully package the spiritual life, making the journey toward realization easily navigated.


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:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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OfflineTHATS iT!
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Registered: 12/26/02
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Ped]
    #2193669 - 12/20/03 11:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Religion is a hope for a proof that our lives are not pointless. Since our exsistence causes change in chaos then our live have a meaning each moment we are still here, even if we die we still cause change. As for a God, I believe there is a higher being who is omnipotent, possibly the creator of all. Even if our reality was created by the collision of parallel deminsion, there still must be an origin. I believe eventually you will find a deminsion of unity where the creator exists.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: THATS iT!]
    #2193803 - 12/21/03 08:42 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

THATS iT! said:
...Since our exsistence causes change in chaos then our live have a meaning each moment we are still here....




Exactly. Whether or not we fit into some grand scheme, what matters is that we are here, every second creating meaning. Every second. If you can recognize objects, if you are capable of receiving inputs from your senses and can identify them as this or this, then you are creating meaning. As long as their is a spark of life, then there IS purpose.

While there might not be any objective way of "knowing" whether or not we even exist, or if there is any major purpose, does it matter? Its nice to remind ourselves of the infiniteness of the universe, it really puts things into perspective.

But it all comes back to the fact that we are breathing. For whatever reason, even if there isn't one, we are here. We have a life to live. We are obviously playing a part in the Universe.... obviously it isn't a big one, and the only problem we have with this is our ego demanding that everything revovles around us. Its about the parts to the whole...

I think that the best thing about not having an implied meaning except to be here in the first place is that we are free to make our own. I find it funny how so many people have their strong independant identity, as a result of the ego, but yet always demand some sort of objective purpose and meaning, or something...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
Re: A thought on religion [Re: THATS iT!]
    #2193885 - 12/21/03 03:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

thats it: Religion is a hope for a proof that our lives are not pointless

---mmmm, how do you figure? seems more like a bandaid on the blackhole that seeks to consume us all.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Positronius]
    #2194942 - 12/22/03 03:20 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

they sound like the same thing to me.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2194948 - 12/22/03 03:23 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mixomatosis said:
they sound like the same thing to me.




You two sound like the same thing to me.  :shocked:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
Re: A thought on religion [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2194950 - 12/22/03 03:24 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

thats because we both grew from the same stem cell in an underground laboratory.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Positronius]
    #2194954 - 12/22/03 03:28 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Positronius said:
thats because we both grew from the same stem cell in an underground laboratory.




Ahh ja, that CIA experiment with Bob Dole as the happy donor.... I see it all now.  :grin:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Registered: 04/20/01
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Zahid]
    #2195948 - 12/22/03 05:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, if I remember correctly, Maher made sure to make it clear that he is a spiritual person, not a religious person.

World of difference.




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--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month:  The Bees - Voices Green And Purple



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Druginduced]
    #2196035 - 12/22/03 06:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It is my suggestion that you take 10-15 years of personal growth and study (at your leisure of course) from wherever you're presently at in order to understand what religion is and what it's real implications are. What I hear from your words, as well as many on this thread, is simply a lack of life-experience plus a very literal and concrete understanding of things. GOD doesn't "come" or 'go'; and the Ascension of Jesus as a human body lifting off from planet Earth is a 1st century imagination belonging to minds which held to a flat Earth and a domed heavens, with the Light of Heaven pouring though 'holes' called stars. GOD was just as anthropomorphized by simpletons two millenia ago as [S]He is today - sitting on a throne with the carpenter's Son on the right, and a Dove on the left. Thinkers yesterday and today hold more profound notions of spiritual realty.

The language of religion in general is the language of 'mythos,' and mythos or myth does NOT mean falsehood or a pre-scientific understanding of reality. Myths are the universal meanings of life, illustrated by colorful stories in which the players are all 'archetypal' in nature. Different cultures dress their myths differently, but the universal truths still come through for those who have developed the ability to find the universals in the particulars. This ability, BTW, is what characterizes the mind of 'Homo Religiosus' - the Religious Man. When the archetype of 'mother and child,' for example (given the Christmas season, and the celebration of this archetype) is seen in Isis suckling Horus in ancient Egyptian myth, Demeter and Persephone in Greece, or Miriam and Y'shua [Mary and Jesus] in Judea, one can distill ot universal meaning in these widely different times and places. That 'distillation' of universal meaning, of an archetype, is a Transcendental Reality - a Reality that is of the Realm of Pure Ideas (in Platonic terms), or a Holy Mystery in religious language.

There is much to be learned about what religion really is, from those who really know what religion really is, before one discards religion as falsehood. What really DOES need to be discarded is the ridiculous, shallow, doctrinaire, literal-historical images that have falsely been communicated about GOD and GOD's Way-of-Being for humankind. Chances are your parents don't know, neither do your simplistic clergymen and well-intentioned Sunday school teachers. If you are ever to adopt the ancient oracular dictate: "Know Thyself" you will be compelled to know who and what a [human] being is, and Who and What the Divine Ground of Being is that we take our moment-to-moment existence from. Bottom line: if you want to Know yourself, you will have to Know GOD. Alternatively, there will be the life of essential alienation, existential dread of dissolution, depression, and a host of limited identities with ones biology, culture, nationality, sexuality or some other partial aspect of the whole. Human beings without religion are not fully human. True religion is an ornate frame around Transcendent Truth.

Light, Truth and Peace for one and all.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Ped]
    #2196074 - 12/22/03 06:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

GATE` GATE` PARAGATE' PARASAMGATE` BODHI SVAHA.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: A thought on religion [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2196112 - 12/22/03 06:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Would that also be referred to as Gnosticism Markos? When i realized what this was a year ago... i was like hmmmm... I understand a little bit more clearly now... It probably wasnt till i read your posts that i was able to re think how i thought religion... For a long time i thought i was athiest... well a year... Then i just became nothing... Then... I am here, realizing im just looking for the truth, maybe like a lot of people here.

I took a mythology course this past semester, and i had never realized how much those stories, 'myths', were just carried over from previous generations. I think the dividing line here is, is the actual "religous" aka devotion to the seeking of truth, and dogma, which is most of the modern religion.

People havent decided to step out and think for themselves, why exactly is beyond me, but there are plenty of examples to find a general understanding.

There is the "status Quo" for religion, which i see in what most of the masses take towards christianity, hinduism, buddhism, whatever, you name it. Most people are not interested in searching for the truth, but they are only searching for being content and told what it is is the truth. Consequently you have wars of people fighting for what each one of them says as the truth. BUt if i were to say anyhting about the people who probably were the base of such religions, these people are going about it completely the wrong way.


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What?


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OfflineZahid
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2196164 - 12/22/03 06:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If you are ever to adopt the ancient oracular dictate: "Know Thyself" you will be compelled to know who and what a [human] being is, and Who and What the Divine Ground of Being is that we take our moment-to-moment existence from. Bottom line: if you want to Know yourself, you will have to Know GOD.




Good post Markos.  :thumbup:

"Those who knoweth Allah, know themselves" -Hazrat Muhammad saw

I have always looked as consciousness as something that can transform into Love and Compassion. God is the source of individual awareness. I think of it as the water cycle, we are rain drops, and ultimately we return to where we came from - which is also what we're made of. It's like God is the Eternal Sea (Biblical term?) and we are like water balloons floating around in the body of spirit/consciousness.. For the balloon to deny that the Ocean exists is to deny that the water inside the balloon does not exist.. the water in the balloon is consciousness, and that awareness will melt into the spirit of God when the body dies - when the balloon breaks and the water inside becomes lost in the sea. Heh.. there's got to be like a million metaphors for metaphysics..anywho.. point be taken, to know thyself is to know that our subjective existence is made out of God-stuff - hence the naive Sufi Hussein Mansoor al-Hallaj's "I am the Truth"  :wink:

Salaam,

zahid


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OfflineZahid
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2196177 - 12/22/03 07:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

There's gnosticism in most religions, even the highly political faith of Islam - known as Ma'rifat/al-Arif'at in Islamic Sufism. It's the realization that human spirit and Holy Spirit are One and the Same. It's to see the dream through the Dreamer's eyes. It's also trippy.  :mushroom2:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: A thought on religion [Re: Zahid]
    #2196227 - 12/22/03 07:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

May al-Hallaj dwell in GOD's peace. He ought not have put his experience that way. Alas. Cut off his hands and feet and crucified him like his beloved Jesus, whose words he seemed to emanate.

Well...I hope you're back on YOUR feet, so-to-speak, since our PM's. Salaam.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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