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 Larrythescaryrex
teardrop on the fire
 
Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 10,974
Loc: further down the spiral
Last seen: 9 days, 20 hours
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 was america founded as a christian based country?! 
#890235 - 09/18/02 05:49 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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This is part of an arguement from another board explaining why america is not christian based, and that nothing in the consitution or bill of rights involves christianity in any way shape or form. what do you guys think?
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Okay, I'm with M. here. Have either of you who are saying "America was founded as a Christian country" ever picked up a fucking history book? I mean one NOT written by Jerry Falwell? The founding fathers were Deists.
Deism: A movement or system of thought advocating natural religion, emphasizing morality, and in the 18th century (that would be the 1700's when this country was founded) denying the interference of the creator with the laws of the universe.
In other words, the founding fathers believed that God created us then left us alone, and it was up to US to rule ourselves.
And if that doesn't convince you, here's some quotes:
The First Amendment
?Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...?
John Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
?The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.?
John Adams in a letter to Charles Cushing (October 19, 1756):
?Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ?this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.??
?The Doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.?--John Adams
And here's some from Thomas Jefferson:
Jefferson?s interpretation of the first amendment in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association (January 1, 1802):
?Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ?make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,? thus building a wall of separation between church and State.?
Jefferson?s ?The Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom?:
?Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than on our opinions in physics and geometry....The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.?
Additional quotes from Thomas Jefferson:
?It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.?
?I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.?
?Christianity...[has become] the most perverted system that ever shone on man....Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.?
And here's one from James Madison:
?Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.?
And Ben Franklin was a Deist, too:
From Franklin?s autobiography, p. 66:
?...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.?
Not to mention Thomas Paine:
From The Age of Reason:
?All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.?
Also from The Age of Reason:
?What is it the Bible teaches us? ? rapine, cruelty, and murder.?
Paine on being a Deist:
?It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.?
And here's one from Ethan allen:
From Religion of the American Enlightenment:
?Denominated a Deist, the reality of which I have never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian.
So you see, maybe the Pilgrims who landed were all Christian, but the writers of the Constitution were NOT, and this country was NOT founded on God or the Bible, or Chrisitianity. It was founded on liberty and justice for ALL...pagans, jews, satanists, buddhists, etc. The separation of Church and State was intended to protect us FROM religion. And rightfully so.
The word "god" was added to the Pledge in the McCarthy era, when everyone was afraid of Communist Russia and on a huge kick to destroy our religious freedom in order to feel "safe". Gee, sound familliar? Kinda like now!
"In God We Trust" was added to money around that time, too.
So, not only was the pledge CHANGED...that is enough to make me ill, they changed an original piece of art to support their moronic fear of diversity...there was really no basis to change it. And by the way, that little triangle and eye on the dollar is a symbol associated with Deism, and it was there before the "in god we trust". And yes, I think they should both be removed. What's next, shall we go through Poe's works and throw in a few hail marys? Or add a few lines about prayer and the evils of adultery to Romeo and Juliet?
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I personally disagree with this and contend that christianity was assumed. But if I am wrong I will admit it.
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RIP Acidic_Sloth
Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011
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Anonymous
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Re: was america founded as a christian based country?! [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
#890322 - 09/18/02 06:51 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Truth mixed with error. That is part of the story but not all of it. The first Constitution mentioned the Christian religion but later when the current form was drawn up they left out those parts. Whatever can be said the US had a religious basis as a part of its heritage. That is incontrovertible. They also condoned slavery and murdered the Natives. Real Christian, huh?
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 Senor_Doobie
Snake Pit Champion
Registered: 08/12/99
Posts: 22,678
Loc: Trump Train
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Re: was america founded as a christian based country?! [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
#890323 - 09/18/02 06:51 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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That post changed my mind on the subject. I came into this thread thinking that we were founded on Christianity, but after reading those quotes, I don't see it.
Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, Madison, Allen...
These make up a bunch of the founding fathers. There are a lot missing though. They may have been torn on the issue.
I do know that a lot of the states early on had established churches. As unconstitutional as this may seem today, back then it was pretty common.
However, I think the first amendment was at the very least was based in this Dieism that they're talking about.
What board is this from?
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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat
“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson
The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.
The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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Larrythescaryrex
teardrop on the fire
Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 10,974
Loc: further down the spiral
Last seen: 9 days, 20 hours
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Re: was america founded as a christian based country?! [Re: Senor_Doobie]
#890780 - 09/18/02 11:14 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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it is in the everything else forum
err, but you probably wouldn't be to interested in that site. It is kinda dull and weird. 
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RIP Acidic_Sloth
Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011
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Senor_Doobie
Snake Pit Champion
Registered: 08/12/99
Posts: 22,678
Loc: Trump Train
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Re: was america founded as a christian based country?! [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
#890803 - 09/18/02 11:23 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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I had trouble navigating that site.
Interesting site though...you believe in vampires?
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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat
“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson
The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.
The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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vaporbrains
Cub Scout
Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 539
Loc: ghetto# 03479
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: was america founded as a christian based country?! [Re: Senor_Doobie]
#890842 - 09/18/02 11:45 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Who cares what the founding fathers thought? they're dead. we're alive. it should be the responsibility of the living to decide what this country should stand for. the past can only recommend. i do, however, agree with seperation of church and state. personally, i'd prefer abolition of church and state, but that's not going to happen.
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All refrences to and statements concerning mushrooms, mushroom cultivation, and mushroom related paraphrenalia refer specifically to the cultivation of legal species.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 13,185
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 8 hours, 46 minutes
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Re: was america founded as a christian based country?! [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
#890873 - 09/18/02 11:57 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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George Washington was a Freemason (you can often find his picture in Lodges). The Light of Freemasonry is the Holy Bible, but Masonry derives from other myths surrounding the person of Hiram Abiff, the supposed architect of Solomon's Temple. Masonry is a surrogate religion, a huge and powerful cult (check out the film 'From Hell').
Ben Franklin was a member of the Libertine Hell-Fire Club. Lots of booze and sex there. Definately not Christian.
Of course, don't forget God, Himself, who is behind the scenes of all of creation, including our history. After all, it's His-story! 
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Anonymous
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Re: was america founded as a christian based country?! [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
#891038 - 09/18/02 01:24 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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For the most part I agree with you. We must remember however, that although many of the founders of this nation were deists, they had inherited and expanded on the Christian principles of the society and families that they were born into. I do recall reading quotes from some of these individuals where the moral principles of Christ were looked upon as virtuous, yet Churches and organized religion were deemed immoral or at odds with the God given gift reason.
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Larrythescaryrex
teardrop on the fire
Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 10,974
Loc: further down the spiral
Last seen: 9 days, 20 hours
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Re: was america founded as a christian based country?! [Re: vaporbrains]
#891240 - 09/18/02 03:29 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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MMMMM.
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RIP Acidic_Sloth
Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011
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