"o me this is reason why I kind of entertain this faith, before I kinda didn't want to see 'hell' myself and I wasn't religious at all, I got a good glimpse or idea of what hell was, from my own personal prospective, the truth may not always be a nice fuzzy beautiful thing, but can be gruesome and horrifying, I wouldn't necessarily call these authors sadist, but maybe realists, from my prospective, as far as them killing in the name of the Christian god, the ten commandments includes thou shall not kill, I don't think you can say they were following doctrine"
are you a Christian capliberty? anyway, huge portions of the Bible completely and totally justify killing if you are doing it for God. Some of his chosen people have killed hundreds of thousands. It is said not to suffer a "wtich" to live. Jesus says he comes not to bring peace but a sword. [though, to me he is speaking in clear metaphor, i suppose it could be misconstrued, this is not the best example]
If you left all that junk out and just said like the Buddhists did, that killing is never acceptable... WHERE would you be able to justify murder? it's clear cut as day in Buddhism, do not kill.... do not join armies. if you do, do it out of compassion and never hate.
Sure Jesus says to turn the other cheek, but this is in direct contradiction to many other, older Biblical passages. And yes, Jesus says that he is overturning such teachings, to love your enemy..... but don't you see where Jesus says this in? in THE HOLY BIBLE.
its very very easy to see why, especially in the more illiterate ages, people could easily be led by the Bible, even believing in the teachings of Christ, to wage ungodly wars, inquisitions, tortures, persecutions.......
even now there are plenty of Christians in the army. It's not necessarily a bad faith if you interpret it the way that involves listening to Jesus, but to me it's a rather bad book.
hell? Hell may be very real, but how is something so cruel as unbeleif going to land you there forever? Hell is a mistranslation of a common burial place where the fires of crematoin were always (eternally) burning, and Jesus said if you don't want to end up there (which is now simply called hell, a metaphysical place, but he was referring to the grave) then you had better do such and such to attain eternal life.
But the thing is, he said many who followed him would not taste of death, and that Kingdom is HERE....... so it's not like you believe lazily in Jesus then go about engaging in the real world, it's more like how the gnostics have it, you really seek Jesus out until you are completely transformed in the holy spirit.
your eye is single and you are made of light like in Luke... you go inward.
so to me hell is just, well you wasted this life, now you're dead, now what? not some sort of crazy-assed authoritarian despotic condemnation.
i think the authors went a little control crazy if you ask me.
the pharisees are very heavily chastised for blocking people from finding Heaven by going inward.... this is what all the Christians churches up to this day do...... they teach a lot of really false things too IMO...... all the notions about sex being evil... Jesus hardly talked about it. He said, don't lust after a woman, because it's the same as sleeping with her, and that's great advice. It doesn't mean to have a huge taboo on sexuality.....
sexual repression is a good method of control. teaching people to follow a circular dogma that does NOT lead them to salvation, while calling meditators and gnostics "heretics" is a good way to control. blocking access to the spirit is a good way to control.
i do not see how simple belief in an abstract concept will unify you with it. I think follow Christ actually really requirse a lot, and that it will bear very tangible fruit along the way. And I think for most people Christ is more of a superstition to keep them in line, then a way to truely set their souls free.
but i think Christ can, whether metaphorically or if he is still a tangible spirit presence working on fixing the hearts of men. I think though the gnostic approach is all around a better one.
plus the religion has mainly spread through force and coercion. it's like, one way of living is capitalism, and another way is tribal living off the land. both have their merits, but to assume that because we killed off the Native Americans and spread our capitalist ways around the globe, tribal living is WRONG, is an incorrect assumption.
i would be interested in the 500 witnesses of resurection though, because as far as historical evidence denotes, I've heard there are not any particular verifiable accounts. so if you can find something about that it would be cool.
the other side though is that if you initiate people to encounter their deeply hidden fears of death, then promise them, no matter how terrible they are terrified during the hell-sermon, that they will escape these torments and live forever.... it's kind of a shadow integration, and Jesus is "stored" in your brain in the same place extreme guilt and terror is.... so that when you do die if you freak out, the concept of Jesus will be buried there and... this could be how it works, and why "hell" is preached the way it is.
the other side too is just that, you actually don't catch more flies with honey... if you say "everything is going to be alright, Jesus loves you" how many people are going to be zealots for your cuase? But if you go in and break them down and warp their minds with hell doctrine, boy howdy they will follow you, oterhwise they could go to hell if they don't!
so it depends. I see how it works, as a pacifier for death by staring down your shadow, then being completely assured that you are now "saved"
but to me, I felt the least saved ever after going through those hell sermons. I had tons of faith until they got to me... then I felt like no matter what I did I wasn't really saved, even though I really did believe in Jesus... when before it was not a concern of mine at all. well it's a catch 22, like how they say "make up sex" is best because extreme emotions jump to other extreme emotoins quickly. it was the only time i felt unconditional love from Jesus after praying for my salvation and being told I was now free.....
but it dissipated and let me with doubt, because they kept tearing back into those holes... guilty, guilty, we're all guiltly..... hell is mostly full of liars, not murderers... so many normal people. 40 years is just a fraction of a second of eternity... never ending pain. no one is safe. guilt guilt guilt terror........like somehow even after believing in him I still wasn't worthy.... it made me very doubtful.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!
....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (07/27/06 01:08 PM)
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