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InvisibleautomanM
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christianity or paulism?
    #1958920 - 09/28/03 04:23 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Do todays christians follow the true teachings of christ or pauls interpretations of christs teachings?


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No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: christianity or paulism? [Re: automan]
    #1958949 - 09/28/03 04:36 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

the books of the new testament were first written in greek.......



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No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: christianity or paulism? [Re: automan]
    #1959413 - 09/28/03 12:46 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Some of the Pauline letters are the oldest writings pertaining to Christ, yet Paul wrote AFTER Jesus had been crucified and had vanished from Earth. This means that the Gospels, which were 'PR' writings and liturgical writings for churches, were penned decades after both Paul's letters, and of course after Jesus had left. The Johannine writings - qualitatively and theologically different from the Synoptics - could have been written anywhere from 90-120 A.D. Paul's influence is the oldest, but different areas of Christendom are effected differently. The Orthodox Church is highly influenced by the Johannine writings, but John's Gospel has 'colored' the Synoptics in the common person's mind. What I mean is: for Matthew, Mark and Luke, Jesus is the Christ - the Messiah prophesied of old - God's Annointed. Fine. But for John, Jesus is not only the Messiah - THE Man Annointed by God - Jesus is the Very Godhead clothed in flesh - the Incarnated Word - The Logos - The Second Hypostatic Prolation of the Trinity - the Second Person, or Son. This 'coloring,' which flows 'backward' so-to-speak, colors peoples uncritical perception of the other Gospels, which took their take from Paul (I know, not a straighforward answer, but it's complicated).

Christianity IS very Pauline. Paul influenced Matthew, Mark and Luke. Then, John, who came late, cast a different 'vibe' out, so that people don't read the Paul-influenced Synoptics without the 'coloration' of John's Gospel. Paul never talked about a 'resusitated' Jesus, or a tomb narrative. Paul's experience of Christ was purely spiritual - purely the Resurrected Christ in Word and Light. So much of Christianity IS Pauline, and much is Johannine, but the Johannine 'colors' the Pauline unless one is a critical reader and can discern the different threads woven together.

And then came The Gospel of Mary Magdalene in 1896, and the Gospel of Thomas and other writings at Nag Hammadi in 1945. After a few hundred years of digestion, Christianity may 'flesh out' and mature, and people will know the difference between Jewish 'Midrash,' and literal, journalistic-like descriptions of spiritual events.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: christianity or paulism? [Re: automan]
    #1959427 - 09/28/03 12:53 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: christianity or paulism? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1959577 - 09/28/03 01:59 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

IMHO Paul sold "christianity" to the Romans.He was a severely misogynistic person and possibly a schizophrenic closet homosexual.It is my belief that his effects upon the religion called "christianity" subverted the message of Yeshua and set up conditions for the formation of the gargantuan Roman Catholic Church.
Paulism is an easy determination,christianity....pretty wide open to many interpretations of what qualifies depending upon who you talk to.
Paulism surrounds the catholic religion and it's bastard children, the Episcopalians and Lutherans.His influence is woven into protestant faiths to varying degrees.I am NOT sure that the two are spiritualy compatible.In other words I do not believe that Pauls words are compatible with Yeshua's message.
WR:rasta:


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: christianity or paulism? [Re: whiterasta]
    #1959636 - 09/28/03 02:29 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

"Do todays christians follow the true teachings of christ or pauls interpretations of christs teachings?"


The "true teachings" of Christ are found in all 66 books of the Word of God.

Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

1 Peter 1:10-11
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Which was not witten by men, but by the Holy Spirit:

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Peter recognized Paul's epistles as inspired:

2 Peter 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Every true believer knows that these are not the words of men:

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

The Word is preserved perfectly despite what the gainsayers may try to assert:

Psalm 12:6-7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Isaiah 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: christianity or paulism? [Re: fivepointer]
    #1959734 - 09/28/03 03:27 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Yawn... I wrote a book once that said a lot of things and then included statements that "verified" the truth in the book...

I mean, when you read something and it says that what you are reading is the truth, you just have to believe it, right?

And then a bunch of people read my book and automatically believed everything that I said as truth, you know, because I included the statements that just so eloquently "proved" that what I was saying was true.

I STILL can't believe that there are still people in this world that still regard the Bible as some holy book that is the undeniable word of God, just because it says so in it... I mean, I realize it is all mental conditioning, but still.

Hey everyone, buy my watch! If you buy my watch, you will be eternally saved, if you don't, you will burn in Hell for eternity, massive suffering, and you know that my watch is the answer to all of your problems and is your salvation because... yes, brothers and sisters, because I myself say that it is.

Reverend Fireworks_god will now retire to his mansion and do some cocaine and get in his jacuzzi with the choir boys..
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: christianity or paulism? [Re: whiterasta]
    #1960109 - 09/28/03 05:50 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Paul's "thorn in my side," has sometimes been interpreted as homosexuality. His misogyny, unfortunately, may well have belonged to the Semitic culture as it still does among the Islamic peoples. He was clearly wrong about the 'end times,' in terms of a historical 'end of time,' rather than the Gnostic interpretation which means a transcendence of time. Because of his misinterpretation and expectation of the immanent return of the LORD, he recommended that men not waste time marrying, because the end was near, and further recommended that married men act as though they were not married, i.e., celibate. Instead, go out and preach. Perhaps this was a consequence of believing the end was near, plus a cultural misogyny, plus a homosexual aversion to heterosexual married sex. He seemed averse to men with long hair, which, in my experience I have encountered my whole life from BALD men who were simply envious. He makes this judgement by saying "by permission, not commandment," which I interpret as Paul saying 'IMO.'

People have long regarded Paul as a perfectly pius, unselfish servant of GOD without recognizing that he was also a successful businessman, who made these large goat-skin tents for Roman legionnaires. He was also a murderer who went around stoning Christians like Stephen (St. Stephen) to death with a group of Jewish vigilantes. He may have been blown away with his classic Damascus mystical experience, and had out-of-the-body ecstasis, but he didn't lose all of his very human biases.

I find it doubtful that he was mentally ill, and as to the appropriation of Christianity by the Romans, it was long after Paul was beheaded in Rome, and it was by Constantine (see 'Constantine's Sword'). If anyone perverted Christianity - simply by judging which books would be considered Holy Scripture and which were to be blasphemous - it was Constantine and the scholars he appointed, not Paul. IMHO.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: christianity or paulism? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1960214 - 09/28/03 06:23 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

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Edited by Enter (09/29/03 06:32 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: christianity or paulism? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1960943 - 09/28/03 10:15 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Hey...if you're not writing in 'tongues,' then check your grammar and re-write whatever it is you are trying to yell. That made no sense whatsoever.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinecatalyst777
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Re: christianity or paulism? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1961727 - 09/29/03 03:33 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I've often wondered about the writings of Paul, although overall, they seem in keeping with the rest of Scripture.

As you can see, I'm new to this forum. I've been using mushrooms for 7 years, off and on. My experiences with them have alot to do with accepting Christ. It's encouraging to see other "seekers" who have some faith in God.

I know one thing, I don't need to believe in Paul. I believe the testimony of Jesus Christ.


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Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored.

Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: christianity or paulism? [Re: catalyst777]
    #1961777 - 09/29/03 04:29 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

i was watching PBS a while back. they had a special on the first 4 books of the new testament. they said that most scholars now believe that matthew, mark, luke, and john, were written by the same 2 people. those books were written to convey a moral principle to the reader, but each principle is brought up twice. one set of stories was written for the lower class, the other set (teaching the exact same moral principles) were writter for a more educated reader. by doing this, the principles could reach a wider audience. not only does this make perfect sense, but it is a very good idea for a budding sect.

there are 27 books in the new testament. of these, at least 12 were written directly, or indirectly, by paul, a man that wasnt even in the same country as jesus when jesus was preaching. paul never met jesus. what he wrote was derived through hear-say and his interpretation on how christianity should develope.

while i'm sure his intentions were good, he was the greatest influence on how the modern world interprets christianity......even over jesus, himself.


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No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: christianity or paulism? [Re: catalyst777]
    #1962011 - 09/29/03 07:18 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

catalyst777 said:
I know one thing, I don't need to believe in Paul. I believe the testimony of Jesus Christ.




I believe in the testimony that is offered in ads of wonder drugs. I mean, their product hasn't been tested or anything, but then they have this big section where all of these people wrote nice statements about the product. "I received eternal Enlightment using this miracle weight loser - H.B."

Crazy people in institutions say that they are the reincarnation of the Son of God. No one believes them, even though they themselves say that they are the Son of God. We don't believe them, but we believe writings in a book a couple of thousand years ago, not even written by the guy, and it has been translated by people many times over, changing words to make Christianity more appealing to the people that are taking it on.. Does the fact that the book says it is the Source actually make it the Source?

I can say a lot of things to impress people too, including a clause that promises Eternal Heaven.
Peace.



--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: christianity or paulism? [Re: automan]
    #1962038 - 09/29/03 07:47 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

This is new to me. I do not believe that this theory involves "most" scholars. The idea of a spiritual elite is a Gnostic idea, yet there are indications from the words attributed to Jesus that to the masses He spoke in parables, but to His friends/disciples he spoke 'plainly' of metaphysical principles. John's writings came much later as I mentioned earlier, and the agendas of Mark (the earliest source), Matthew (the 'Judaizer') and Luke (possibly a physician) were quite different for reasons of their different agendas and pesonalities.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineZahid
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Re: christianity or paulism? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1962279 - 09/29/03 10:41 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Isn't the Gnostic idea of 'higher spirituality' consist of non-judgemental reasoning and thus a spiritual 'elite' (when compared to judgemental psychics)? I remember reading somewhere that Jesus's mystical, private teachings were called his 'theory of nature'; not sure where that term came from though.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: christianity or paulism? [Re: Zahid]
    #1963119 - 09/29/03 05:11 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

dr hugh schonfield's popular (and in some corners, reviled) studies of the development of early christianity are well worth reading for a little, ummmm, perspective on how christianity got to be where and what it is today...
check out:
_the passover plot_
_the jesus party_
_those incredible christians_
(& maybe anything else he has written --- all just fascinating, even if you strongly disagree with some, or even most, of his arguments...)
~


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: christianity or paulism? [Re: Zahid]
    #1963668 - 09/29/03 08:19 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Don't think I've heard of that 'theory of nature,' but it sounds Greek to me - literally - not Hebrew. Gnosis is inner knowledge, transrational experiences of symbolic content like Light, Sound, attending recognition of Eternity, familiarity ("Oh yeah! I remember this place - it's always Here - I must've fallen asleep again for several years, but I'm Here again!''), experiencing sub specie aeternitatus (under the aspect of eternity), and a number of transpersonal, transcendental conditions. The faith of the psychics, focused on future temporal conditions of the world, instead of present awareness of transcendental conditions, rarely, it would seem, results in experiences like those mentioned above. Perhaps the most sought-after spiritual realization in this context, is the experience of 'certitude' - a Knowing in the immediate sense of the word that all those words of scripture are not mere platitudes and niceties - but TRUTH - REALITY - THE WAY IT REALLY IS.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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