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Offlinechemkid
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Registered: 06/21/02
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Don't hold religions accountable
    #786624 - 07/30/02 05:00 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

There are many religions out there. I have my own beliefs but in the interests of keeping this unbiased I will call my religion "brand-X" . There have been many injustices in this world and many of those were done "in the name of religion". However if you look at the major religions of the world you will see that they all teach peace, unity, love thy neighbor etc. So whether brand X is the one true religion or not, it really doesn't matter, they all teach wonderful values. So why have so many injustices been committed in the name of something that teaches peace? Look at the brutal Christian crusades, or the muslim terrorists or any other religious injustice. So you ask "what is the point of this post?" It is this: All the terrible things that have been done are the fallacies and cruelty of mankind. I hear so many people hate the muslims because "they are all terrorists" or hate the christians because" they are all hypocrites". Do you really think that a whole religion should be judged on the actions of man? That's like judging all black people based on the one you have met or all women on the few who cheated on you. Evil things done in the name of religion are never really done in that religions name. They are done in the name of greed and power. Religion just happens to be an excellent rally call to spark interest in your greedy lust for money and power and get them to support you. I challenge you to not hate the devout for being terrorists and hypocrites but to condemn the actions of a few evil people!!!!


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: chemkid]
    #786655 - 07/30/02 05:12 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

You dont see the Catholic religion set up in such a way that pedophiles can weasle in and get their rocks off without worrying about trouble? If not than why are all the pedophiles becoming priests? I dont think it is a coincidence.


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


Edited by sir tripsalot (07/30/02 05:12 PM)


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #786663 - 07/30/02 05:15 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I agree that it is terrible that there seems to be so many pedophilic preists but that is actually my point.......can you show anywhere in the catholic teachings that it encourages pedophilia? Of course not. These are the evil doings of men not the evil teachings of their religion. No more so than islam teaches it's people to fly airplanes into buildings.


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: chemkid]
    #786763 - 07/30/02 06:16 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Its the setup or system that is allowing it to be a haven for this behaviour and yes I blem them for doing Sweet fuck all to correct it. That meeting in the vadicane(sp?) was bullshit.


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: chemkid]
    #786785 - 07/30/02 06:31 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Well... I disagree... If someone says, "This is for islam" as they crash a plane into a building... Then that act was done in the name of he religion, reguardless if you think that all religions "teach peace, unity, love thy neighbor etc."

When the fucking pope gets up and says lets go into this other land and reclaim it, don't worry, if you die on this crusade, you go straight to heaven. Kill anone you want, it's in the name if god so you're not doing any wrong...
Score one for jebus.

And don't bother telling me that only good things are done in the name of religion... Bad things that are done in the name of religion really DO count...


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InvisiblePeaceful_Nomad
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Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: chemkid]
    #786848 - 07/30/02 07:03 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I fully understand the point Chemkid is attempting to clarify, and agree that
religions as a whole should not be condemned for the selfish acts perpetuated
by extremists or sick individuals.

Is it right to condemn a nationality because of sensless acts committed by individuals or groups of that specific race? The comparison is similar.

Ever experience a "Wolf in sheeps clothing" in this day and age. They exist everywhere (watch the evening news or read a newspaper). Yet, despite the
darkness spread by these individuals or groups (who only wish to spawn doubt
and fear among the masses), there are numerous miracles, great and small, that
occur on a daily basis, and there is much beauty to be experienced in this world.

Attitudes are like seeds. When planted in a fertile medium, they will eventually
grow, mature, and bear fruit. How do you think the Nazi and Neo-Nazi movement
was created... the Al Qa'ida... the PLO... etc., etc.?

Know that we live in a "jungle" of a world, full of dangers and pitfalls. However,
don't allow the darkness to overshadow the beauty and brilliance of the light that
occurs all around us. Possess the neccessary tools to defend yourself on all
levels. In the security of that knowledge, peace, love and light will more readily
manifest within your reality. Life is what you make it. By changing yourself, you
change the world.

Peace to Everyone

Peaceful Nomad


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: Peaceful_Nomad]
    #787074 - 07/30/02 09:05 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for the thumbs up Nomad.......Anyway I love how most of you that have posted are trying to negate my statement but are only affirming it.

All these evils that you speak of are committed by men and are not taught by religion. So some crazy muslim says I am doing this in the name of Islam and kills 45 innnocent people......That's it......automatically that religion is a sham and teaches death and murder. Surely you can look deeper than that. Just because a few crazies claim one thing doesn't make it so. Case in point: The KKK claims to be the moral majority and do things in the name of the whit race.........that's it, all white people are evil. I assure you that they certainly don't speak for this white boy. Just because they are claiming something it is still just power, greed, ignorance, etc that is the motivating factor.

I am 100% not a believer in the muslim religion. However, I am not shallow enough to believe that a psycho by the name of Arafat, or Hussein represents all muslims. I have many peaceful muslim friends that are ashamed of the things they are doing in the name of a truely peaceful religion.

Just because someone claims to be a Christian and then kills his mom, rapes his sister and injects some heroine doesn't mean that "Christians" are lying hypocrites. That one person had his own motives and reasons. If you can show me one passage in the Kuran or the Bible that condones pedophilia, murder, terrorism, etc. Then I will gladly delete this post!!!!!


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: chemkid]
    #787078 - 07/30/02 09:07 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Would a store with loaded guns sitting around bother you? Its the perfect enviroment to shoot somebody, but of course it would ONYLY be the fault of whover picked up the gun and shot it right? no responsiblilty AT ALL should be put on the instituiton that made it so easy to do? The catholic church is waving a big banner saying "come fuck our children" but the only one to blame is the actual priests and the church should just shrug there shoulders and hope the no more bad apples come along.


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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OfflineLiquidSmoke
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Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #787129 - 07/30/02 09:32 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

>The catholic church is waving a big banner saying "come fuck our children" but the only one to blame is the actual priests and the church should just shrug there shoulders and hope the no more bad apples come along.


Huh?

I think blame should go both ways. It's partly the church's fault, and partly the pedophiles.

My friend works at a Los Angeles based Catholic church. Perhaps the largest in the city area. He managed the church computer mainframe and came upon a great deal of pornography from the church's more "inside" files. I kidd you not.

But he's not gonna say anything about it because he doesn't want to end up like Sineade O' Connor.

But still, not once in the bible does it say "priests can fuck children" or anything near like that. It just happens to be unfotunate that these sick, horny bastards work for the highest power on Earth. That's how revolutions get started.

If there's a revolution that starts, I'll be ready with my gun and hostage-tying rope.


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"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: LiquidSmoke]
    #787146 - 07/30/02 09:42 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

For a Huh? you seemto have gotten my point O.K. The topic of this thread says"dont hold religions accountable. I say they should be (of course the actual pedophile should be as well)
The catholic church has set up such a system that pedophiles are becoming priests because its so easy to FUCK the children and not get in trouble(the "banner" metaphor).
Never did I say that religion is the sole thing responsible, but they do sweet fuck all to rectify the problem its encountered.


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #787162 - 07/30/02 09:53 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I'll throw in another example. Harry Chrishnas asking parents to give up their kids so they can stay with the church. It turned into a huge pedophile haven. You Should be able to leave your kids anywhere and not have a problem but thats not practical and proved not to be when later on all these adults talk about the abuse they went through. The church set up a situation where this kind of thing was possible, so part of the blame is theirs. I dont want to be misunderstood by some that think I feel the pedophiles have no responsibilty..


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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OfflineLiquidSmoke
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Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #787183 - 07/30/02 10:05 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah that makes more sense now.

Religions themselves can be fucked up. I totally agree with you in that aspect. It's a shame.

So, wanna start a revolution with me? I was a Boy Scout. They taught me how to tie knots. Works perfect for tying up hostages. They also taught me how to shoot a rifle, sail small boats, and navigate my way through unknown territories.

They should just change the name of Boy Scouts to 'Osama and Friends"


--------------------
"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: LiquidSmoke]
    #787215 - 07/30/02 10:20 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Ummm. I got my own thing going, its much more tiring though. I boycott religions


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #787262 - 07/30/02 10:53 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Again your proving my point rather than disproving it. Or maybe you are misunderstanding my point (which I believe to be the case). Let me clarify what I mean by religion. Religion is the teachings and morals. I believe you are talking about an institution. If this is the source of our disagreement than this make a lot more sense. I whole heartedly agree with you that the "Institution" called the catholic church should definitely be held accountable. The religion itself and other "normal" people that follow it should not be held accountable (blamed).
Again though, the institution is the conception of man not the religion. The Bible doesn't say to make the most powerful and richest church on the face of the earth and do wicked things.....but this is what the catholic church does.....so does that mean that there are no decent, spritual catholics?

Good post though!!


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Offlinewhy
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Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: chemkid]
    #787431 - 07/31/02 02:22 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Look at the brutal Christian crusades, or the muslim terrorists or any other religious injustice.


The difference is that Jesus Christ didn't start no holy war.

Mohammed DID start a holy war (and married a 4 year old little girl)

Muslims always claim they have a very tolerant religion. Their evidence for this?

"We only slaughtered the pagans, we left the Jews and Christians alone"

I don't have anything against Muslims, but to think that someone like that is in anyway spiritual is very foolish.








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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: chemkid]
    #787815 - 07/31/02 09:05 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Case in point: The KKK claims to be the moral majority and do things in the name of the whit race.........that's it, all white people are evil.

Someone may correct me if I am wrong, but I doubt there is a (written) KKK doctrine that advocates killing. Some that join are probably truly Separatists, not violent anarchists. However, if violent acts are condoned by your local KKK chapter, and you know and understand this, then you are in fact, condoning violence and are guilty by your continued support.

I witnessed the whole Catholic Church / pedophile thing over 30 years ago. NOTHING has changed, meaning that the CC is guilty of burying it or looking the other way, so the Vatican MUST bear some of the responsibility.

If the good German citizens in the 1940s did NOTHING when they knew the Nazis were doing horrific acts, yet waved the Nazi flags out of fear, then they are guilty by their own silence and inaction.

Speaking of WWII, most Christian nations turned the Jewish refugees away and should be held accountable for many deaths that could have been prevented by providing asylum.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: why]
    #788126 - 07/31/02 11:54 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I think that you are foolish by judging every last muslim when you have met no where near all of them. Of course there have been some lunatics but what group or association doesn't have their share of them?

No one here has yet to prove that all these evils were the evils of religion and not man or institution. Everyone keeps coming up with the same old argument and giving examples of the injustices done on behalf of religion. If everyone is going to be this naive then from now on when I am about to do something wrong I'll just yell out the name of some obscure group or religion and let them take the heat.


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OfflineLiquidSmoke
My title's cooler than yours DBK

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Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: why]
    #788298 - 07/31/02 01:01 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

WHy.



You're obviously christian, i can tell.

The fact that you just bring up these small, very limited-viewed issues is what got me.

Don't even TRY to justify the Christian religion divine to the Muslims. It's just selfish and close-minded.

So what if Mohammed started a Holy War and such? God whiped out whole civilizations with floods. If the bible tells true.

Mohammed married a young'un? Do I have to mention the catholic priests?



--------------------
"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back


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Anonymous

Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: Swami]
    #789008 - 07/31/02 07:17 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Does this mean that you are guilty because you do not try to stop the horrors that now are committed by the human race of which you are a part?

If you disagree with the actions of a group you belong to what is your choice? I am sure that you belong to many groups and yet when the groups do wrong what do you do? In fact, how can you even make an assessment that the groups actions are wrong? Are they wrong just because YOU think they are?

I think you are making a categorical error here.

Cheers,


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Anonymous

Re: Don't hold religions accountable [Re: ]
    #789183 - 07/31/02 08:14 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Mr. Mushrooms, I know that your questions were addressed to Swami, but I would like to comment on them.

If you disagree with the actions of a group you belong to what is your choice?
Depending on the situation, speak up, physically attempt to stop the action, report the group to the proper authorities, stop associating with the group, make others aware of the group and it's actions which you find disagreeable.

... how can you even make an assessment that the groups actions are wrong? Are they wrong just because YOU think they are?
If you have any type of morality, on some level you will judge the actions of others based on your morals. Moral relativism is a slippery slope that could allow one to descend into the lowest levels of inhumanity. If a man's morality is dependant on whatever group he is associating with at the time, he has no principles and is only worthy of contempt. If a man avoids taking a stand on his principles, what good are his principles? Should one rely on the "Nuremberg Defense" or passively go along with something that one finds morally abhorrent?


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