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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1204326 - 01/09/03 03:12 PM (19 years, 19 days ago)

Goes along with every other skeptic who builds their life around disbelief.

Do you believe or disbelieve that the murder rate in the US is at or near a historical high?

Do you believe or disbelieve that percentage of people in prison in the US is at or near a historical high?

Do you believe or disbelieve that alcohol abuse in the US is at or near a historical high?

Do you believe or disbelieve that child abuse in the US is at or near a historical high?

Do you believe or disbelieve that divorce in the US is at or near a historical high?

Do you believe or disbelieve that the abortion rate in the US is at or near a historical high?

Do you believe or disbelieve that teenage pregnancy in the US is at or near a historical high?

I guess my skepticism caused all of that and that all of the religious / spiritual techniques are working quite well.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1204670 - 01/09/03 04:43 PM (19 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

there is no evidence that praying and worship is a good cause.



I don't think he was referring to prayer and worship, Swami. The first line of your post says itself that the goal is "human love and compassion", not prayer and worship. Prayer and worship are just a tool, and I'm sure you'll agree that not everyone uses a tool with the same degree of efficiency. :smirk: 


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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1204810 - 01/09/03 05:16 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

Do you believe or disbelieve that there is a non-causal correlation between those facts and the fact that fewer people in the US acknowledge the existence and supremacy of God, i.e. skepticism is at a near historical high?

[the plot thickens]


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1204822 - 01/09/03 05:19 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

You bring up an interesting point.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Adamist]
    #1204844 - 01/09/03 05:22 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

and I'm sure you'll agree that not everyone uses a tool with the same degree of efficiency

In the early '70s there were a couple of books on the benefits of running and aerobics from Fixx and Cooper and others. The jogging boom was born and now there are hundreds of thousands participating in these and similar activities because they promote health and ACTUALLY work.

Now does everyone get the same benefit from these tools? Of course not! However, there is zero evidence that any spiritual "tools" actually work, which is why there is no change in morality; in fact most indicators are going in the negative direction.

No one has to make ANY excuse for physical exercise, but most every response here was an apology for why spiritual exercise is not efficacious.




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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1204854 - 01/09/03 05:25 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

You expect too much from a mere tool.


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Edited by Adamist (01/09/03 05:26 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1204859 - 01/09/03 05:26 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

Do you believe or disbelieve that there is a non-causal correlation between those facts and the fact that fewer people in the US acknowledge the existence and supremacy of God, i.e. skepticism is at a near historical high?
Sorry bro, there is no causal relationship. I have only hammered this point a hundred times here. If that were true, the believers would exhibit behavior reflective of a higher moral code than skeptics. Alas there is NO DIFFERENCE.

[the plot thickens]
[The excuses multiply]



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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1204898 - 01/09/03 05:39 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

So what do you attribute the fact that your figures coincede with an increase in skepticism?

More skepticism, less humanity. Or so it seems.

In other words is skepticism caused by the lack of evidence regarding better human behavior? Or is worse human behavior caused by skepticism.

[the plot thickens]
[The excuses multiply]
[obtuseness abounds]


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InvisiblethePatient
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1204960 - 01/09/03 05:59 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

3000 years ago: nonstop war in the Middle East.

Today: nonstop war in the Middle East.
 




I think war is a necessary evil that must take place on the path to an enlightened existence of Man. Its a transition from our primal ape instincts to a more evolved utopian system where we love our fellow man.

Or maybe im wrong.

Quote:

Please point out my nonsense and what small step that we have taken and what we are closer to. Clarify man!




Small steps...small steps... Well...  Id say we've taken small steps in regards to race and the freedom of each human being. Slavery is pretty much abolished and though racism still thrives and survives...it will be rooted out one day.

Small steps... i could point out that Women and Men have become equal, in a sense. Yes, im sure there are still sexist people in the work force, and all around this planetary sphere. But the idea is that the majority treats every man and every woman with equal hatred and equal love. :wink:  Im sure Equality is one of the beginning steps to world peace.

It'll all die out one day. Die with us.   


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.


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Anonymous

Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: thePatient]
    #1205072 - 01/09/03 06:22 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

I'm sure way back in the now (lol), near our intelligence's beginning all humans got along at some point then something went wrong. Some of us probably started doubting others or things the other brought up and this caused a confliction. Then comes the liar to take place of the other side to the confliction.
Swami thinks most believers who experience things are lying for attention.
This causes confliction.
Whos really causing the problems of this race?


Edited by dustin (01/09/03 06:25 PM)


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1205082 - 01/09/03 06:23 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Whos really causing the problems of this race?



The one who invented the concept of lieing.  :wink: 


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: thePatient]
    #1205093 - 01/09/03 06:27 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

Small steps... i could point out that Women and Men have become equal, in a sense.

The social reforms you mentioned cannot be linked to any spiritual practices.

I noticed that everyone steered clear of my post where I clearly listed the negatives. Now why is that?


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1205096 - 01/09/03 06:27 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

I don't know how well these will show up, but I cut and paste them from the web.  First, a chart showing that atheism in America has grown from about 5% in 1972 to about 13% today:


Next is a chart showing violent crime has shrunk from about 3.5 million offenses in 1973 to 2.0 million today:


So as the country has becomes less religious, crime goes down.  Also note that Europe is much less religious than the US, and the violent crime rate there is even lower.

I guess athiests don't believe in penance, so they would feel guilty for life after a crime, rather than just a week like Christians.  :tongue: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1205104 - 01/09/03 06:30 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

On your first chart, "None" could mean a number of things, not just atheism. One could choose "None" to show that they have an inner spirituality, that they don't rely on religious organizations.

Also, what's the source of this information?


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Posts: 15,413
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: ]
    #1205118 - 01/09/03 06:34 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

So what do you attribute the fact that your figures coincede with an increase in skepticism?
Huh? First off, how does one measure an increase in skepticism? Even if so (which I hardly concede) coincidence is NOT causation. (My alarm clock went off at the exact same time as the sunrise. Wow! I must have a v-e-r-y powerful alarm clock!)

In other words is skepticism caused by the lack of evidence regarding better human behavior? Or is worse human behavior caused by skepticism.
I am highly skeptical, yet if I gave my word, you could bet your life on it. So in this sample size of one, your argument falls flat.

I LOVE how everyone ducks my point that believers exhibit the exact same foibles as skeptics which is highly indicative that they are NOT in contact with any higher power or inner wisdom whatsoever.

[the plot thickens]
[The excuses multiply]
[obtuseness abounds]
[avoidance continues]


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1205119 - 01/09/03 06:34 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

Do you believe or disbelieve that the murder rate in the US is at or near a historical high?

Do you believe blah blah blah........


Did you factor in populatin growth?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Adamist]
    #1205141 - 01/09/03 06:39 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

On your first chart, "None" could mean a number of things, not just atheism. One could choose "None" to show that they have an inner spirituality, that they don't rely on religious organizations. Also, what's the source of this information?

Here is what the website said about the source of the data, and what "None" means:

"The following chart is an amalgam of various respectable polling data (including ARIS, Gallup, NORC and ABC/Beliefnet). The key to note is the trend in the category "None." This category represents all those without religion. They are not a member of any religion. This includes agnostics, as well as atheists, but essentially represents those who do not believe in a deity that has anything to do with their life. The count of non-religionists currently add up to at least 14.1% of the US Population. Some argue it's higher than that. I prefer to be conservative in statistical analysis. The numbers do not take into account the many non-theists who do not readily admit their lack of religion. It is our opinion that the "None" count should be realistically higher than currently shown. Whatever the case the trend is in the non-theist, as well as "Other" religion, direction. The chart represents US-based data only."

The crime chart comes directly from the US Department of Justice homepage.

So it appears that "other" religion (which is also on the rise), is for what you are talking about. This could also be a factor as to why violent crime is going down.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Murex]
    #1205156 - 01/09/03 06:45 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

Did you factor in populatin growth?

Rate is defined as a percentage, not a total number.


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1205175 - 01/09/03 06:50 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

Homicide Rates (also from the US department of justice homepage):



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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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InvisiblethePatient
Criminal Bodhisattva
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Re: If Religion and/or Spiritual Techniques Really Worked... [Re: Swami]
    #1205186 - 01/09/03 06:53 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

believers exhibit the exact same foibles as skeptics




The price of being Human. Our foibles, or our failings of character, are due to our being human and imperfection, and not our religious beliefs.

A person in "contact with any higher power" is a still a person, none-the-less.


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